Manchester United Banter Archive November 13 2018

13 Nov 2018 20:23:23
It's a favourite pastime of posters on here to discard our players. I remember a few weeks back all were against Lindelof, then he suddenly became a defensive god who just needs the right partner. Bailey is high on the list of players everyone wants to see gone. Martial was useless for some ( including me), but looks like he's a world beater again. Now Rashford is just a waste who will never be world class.
We all are quick to make up our minds about players. Wouldn't rashford be scoring goals if he was at City or Liverpool? Many of our players would look good in those teams. Do you guys think Salah would have scored so many goals in our team. If we had a front 3 of Messi, Ronaldo and Neymar would we be any better on the points table?
We can keep talking about a solid foundation in our defense for the next 20 years but it won't help until we show some attacking intent. We can play a team of 10 world class centre backs but if we decide to sit back for 90 minutes, we will concede a goal and we would all be left pointing at that one guy who was at fault.

13 Nov 2018 21:17:25
Have to reply to this but I'm pretty certain that with a front three of Messi, Ronaldo and Neymar we would be better off. If you think we wouldn't then I can't help you sir.

13 Nov 2018 21:47:10
Good point sailor. The majority wanted rid of Shaw as he was fat and lazy yet here he is, a regular starter. People want to write off Rashford, a 20 year old kid because he isn’t Messi. As you say, Lindelof has gone full circle, as has Matic in the other direction.

The question is, how long do you give players? I’ve been critical of Fred but he’s only been here 2 minutes so that is perhaps unfair. Pogba on the other hand has had long enough to prove his worth and sadly hasn’t. I’m happy to give the youngsters time but the established players need to get their finger out.

13 Nov 2018 22:32:15
"If we had a front 3 of Messi, Ronaldo and Neymar would we be any better on the points table? "

I'll take this one. Yes.

14 Nov 2018 00:04:11
Haha glad everyone replied to that silly part of the post. If we had the 3 best players in the world up front would we Ben doing any better? Good one.

14 Nov 2018 05:42:24
With Ronaldo alone up top, while Messi and Neymar defend deep inside our own half. I don't see anything different from what I've seen till now.

13 Nov 2018 17:08:02
Heard a lot of praise for Axel Tuanzebe after a performance he gave for Derby in Villa's 3-0 win.

Playing at Cb, had a passing accuracy of 84%, Won one header, took 57 touches, made one tackle, one clearance and 3 interceptions.

Hope he comes back and becomes a regular, his composure on the ball is amazing for his age.

13 Nov 2018 19:36:39
I hope that he returns a better player and I like the look of him. But the stats you have used don't actually sound that great to be fair. this is another case of not just using stats to evaluate a performance.

13 Nov 2018 14:15:53
Rashford. Is he all that?

I feel really mixed on Rashford, I was there for his league debut against Arsenal but I'm not sure if he is any better now than he was then.

There is a lot of call for second number 9 to be signed but also for more game time for Rashford, I don't see how this goes together.

I think he has been good in parts but don't see him as better than Martial, Lukaku or Sanchez and not sure if he would play a bigger role in any other of the top 6 clubs.

Is it time he nails down a position? My suggestion is the Right Forward position. Or should we accept he is a squad player.

I would be happy with that but don't see consistent quality for the first 11.

13 Nov 2018 14:53:10
It'd funny how he looks a completely different player for England isn't it?

13 Nov 2018 15:18:01
Second choice striker and back up to Martial for me.

Sanchez needs to be cut loose and have Martial and Rashford battle it out. Three is a crowd.

13 Nov 2018 15:45:19
AJH does he though? I love the guy but seems good 1 in 3 games.

13 Nov 2018 17:06:30
Lots of pace, but no quality on the ball. He can get on the end of scrappy things in the 6 yard box, but the way we use him he gets most of his possession out wide where he lacks the ability to make things happen. Very disciplined though, will do whatever is asked of him, which is why he is a favourite of Jose.

For me he is getting a bit of a free ride at the minute as all the attention is on Pogba, Sanchez, Lukaku, Matic etc.

13 Nov 2018 17:11:00
Needs a run of games, would definitely do a better job than Lukaku upfront. Against city he made few very good runs but our midfield was very busy finding a safe pass rather than trying to find him.

13 Nov 2018 18:16:07
Not even that quick really, rarely beats a man for pace in a straight race with the ball. Looks like a rabbit in headlights, no end product, soft, anything he has to think about he fluffs. He gives the ball away more than Pogba as well.

Over rated, cash in. It's players like Rashford that exemplify why we are where we are. Love the fact he is Utd born and bred, love that he is young, love how he flew onto the scene. But he hasn't improved in 3 years. He is a non-entity and pops up with a goal now and again like most of our players, Lingard, Mata, Lukaku. All decent players but Europa League level, which is where we are now.

Doesn't play that well for England either, one or two decent games, the rest have passed him by.

13 Nov 2018 19:31:15
Fans want our youth llayers to get a chance but also demand that they be the finished article at 20. Rashford is miles ahead of where Lingard was at his age. Stick with him and play him out right.

13 Nov 2018 21:48:54
“Not even that quick really”. Jeez Beast, lighten up. Under a different Manager Rashford would be developing. He may or may not make it but under Jose I think he will struggle.

13 Nov 2018 21:46:59
I think he's a good player Beast, i think he suffers a bit cos he's united through and through, and maybe tries too hard instead of just relaxing and doing what comes naturally.

13 Nov 2018 08:57:18
Smalling and Lindelof aren't working as a CB partnership. Matic isn't helping with his lack of mobility and poor marking.

Bailly has been made a scapegoat.
He is our best CB. When he plays we play more confidently from the back.

Personally i woukd play 442, Martial and Rashford up front.
Attack defences, go out and terrify them. Currently the long ball upto Lukaku is flawed, predictable and a guarantee of giving the ball back to the opposition.

Top 4 is possible but if we lose another 2-3 games before January, it will become very difficult.

The reality is, Mourinho is stuck in his ways. I hope he can work it out.

Sadly, this woll be a season of fustration. hopefully we can qualify from the CL group stages.

The january transfer window may well be a crucial one.

13 Nov 2018 10:12:28
Hi Guys

So its Tuesday, we have got Monday out of the way so time for some reflection on the weekend without the raw emotion attached.

For me the table doesn't lie it was 1st against 8th, so was it really that much of a surprise the result. The victory there in April was just a fluke, they should of been out of sight after 40 minutes.

Sunday showed me what I probably already knew. Their are leaps and bounds ahead as far as we are concerned in terms of comparison. They have everything in place now, the coach, the money, the players, the infrastructure, no one can dispute that.

What shocks me as a United fan is how we have allowed this to materialise and not moved with it. Anyone who know's me know's I don't buy this lack of support from the owners rubbish. A lot of responsibility here lies with the footballing operation at the club.

I look in comparison now dare I say it with the Scousers and them lot. Look at the comparisons in professionalism from top to bottom. You have Klopp and Pep, animated managers getting the best out of their players. All we have is a bloke who stands there pulling silly faces at the camera and cupping his ear after the odd fluky uninspiring win (Turin)

Wheres the structure, Wheres the professionalism that was once commonplace at our club under our greatest managers Busby and Ferguson. We have a manager now who stays and the Lowrey and can check out anytime he wants. what's that all about, we can't even turn up for our home games on time. What are we becoming here.

We're the laughing stock of football at the minute and rightly so. Millions and Millions spent on players who couldn't care less about us. And fans who just want to blame everything on your owner or Ed Woodward. You just can't keep pointing the finger at them. Ferguson's stubborn stand off with the press proving he could win it with average Joes. Where was the planning for the future in that exercise?

Wheres our director of football? Who is advising the owners on what's best for the club and the best way to do it? Its an absolute shambles and this won't get any better without change. We can't keep letting these managers run down the season to the point of mathematical impossibility of top four. We need to act now.

Sam Allardyce could get as much out of this team as Mourinho, its disgraceful football and an unprofessional set up in terms of the footballing operation. Let the Glazers and Woodward do what they do best on the commercial side, you can't fault them where revenue is concerned.

Would you back Mourinho again after Fred. I know I wouldn't . Take action now for me or you can forget top four. Its probably gone already.

13 Nov 2018 10:57:07
Unfortunately I think big Sam would actually get more from these players than Jose is. All the talk about whether players are good enough is misleading, there are enough good players in our squad but we are rubbish for one reason, work rate. Least sprints, lowest distance covered, absolutely no pressure on the ball without possession and slow attacking and lack of numbers in attack when in possession. This is either instructions of the manager or player laziness, either way something needs doing. If its Jose he needs to go, if its the players they need dropping.

13 Nov 2018 11:16:34
Good post Mike.

The short answer to your question on why we have let it get this bad. Just have a look at the thousands of posts from 6 months into Jose's Utd career until today, where he still has many Utd fans excusing and backing this dross. I knew after a couple of months we hired the Chelsea Manager that got sacked, not the idealist younger fresher version.

If fans that know a bit about footy can't see it through their desperation (possibly more than Woody), then it's not hard to imagine that an incompetent board are happy or swayed to put up with it. Americans tend to be more dreamy than Brits in my experience, SUPER POSITIVE, words seem to count more than actions because it's all about brand. That spreads down and inevitably it's easy to see any slight positive as more than it is. We have turned into a fake club.

We are weak, we lack that ruthlessness that top teams have. We even see it in our players that lack any sort of character on the football pitch. Manager isn't committed and past his best, players don't look capable, the club is losing or has lost what made it great. No passion, just lame excuses and many of our weak fans need to stop accepting this garbage we are served up week in week out.

We have hired 3 defensive managers on the spin, spent hundreds of millions putting square pegs in round holes. We look like a bunch of random individuals playing with no team identity and the manager has to take the blame, closely followed by the incompetent board above him football wise.

13 Nov 2018 11:14:40
Jose can't get the players working hard enough. This was shown in his final season at Chelsea, they stopped playing for him and the side would have been relegated had Jose not been sacked. The following season with much the same squad they win the league.

He was sacked at Madrid because the players stopped playing for him.

The statistics show that our side don't put in the work, it doesn't matter if that is because of Jose's instructions or because the players don't want to play for him. The result is the same, Jose needs to leave in order for our squad to play to their potential.

Some people argue that its the modern players attitude, they don't want to work hard, they are lazy and earn too much money.

Yet, managers such as Simeone, Kloop, Sarri, Pep and Pochettino have made their players run through walls for them, they have worked them hard and they have responded and pushed themselves.

Maybe slagging off your players to the press doesn't work anymore, the rights and wrongs of that are irrelevant. A manager can't change society, he can however adapt to it. Jose isn't adapting, and its costing us.

I still wouldn't sack him yet, mostly because I don't think the right people or structure are in place yet. I feel it could be a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire. Especially if Zidane gets the job, who is the likely candidate.

13 Nov 2018 11:27:33
Whilst the debate rages regarding who is to blame for our current malaise it got me thinking to how Pep would deal with our current squad. If we accept the premise that he's the best manager and Mourinho is vastly underachieving then how different would our team look if Pep was in charge?

Pep has predominantly favoured 4-3-3 so no radical changes there. City were heavily linked with both Sanchez and Fred so I'll assume both would be involved. Considering Pep's insistence of high intensity pressing, combined with mobility, fluidity and possession I have attempted to select a team in his image from our current squad.

De Gea, Bailly, Rojo, Young, Shaw, Fred, Herrera, Pogba, Martial, Lingard, Sanchez.

I'm not entirely sure who he'd play at RB or CB. I think Bailly would compete with Lindelof for the right side and I think Rojo would play on the left to bring some balance. I also think Mata could play in one of the more advanced midfield positions but have opted for Herrera as he brings more energy and intensity to the team.

I think the main difference is Mourinho's preference for strength, height and power and his mentality to sit deep and absorb pressure in comparison to Pep's more pro active, attacking and fluid approach. Smalling, Matic, Lukaku even Fellaini are all stalwarts of his team and I'm not convinced any would play under Pep and certainly not all together.

There would obviously be a shift in mentality and a plan to win the ball back higher up the pitch meaning our defence would be under considerably less pressure. Sanchez, Lingard, Herrera, Fred all have the mobility and mentality to put the opposition under intense pressure and win the ball back. Pogba and Martial would have to follow suit and work harder.

I'd love to see our team go out and play with hunger, intensity and desire and to see what it's capable of with the more technical players in our squad given a platform to excel.

Forget about the structure of the Club or a DOF etc the most important man is the manager. If Pep was in charge we wouldn't be talking about that stuff anyway. We would have a clear identity and vision. We would all recognise the style of play, know what direction the Club was heading and what was needed to improve.

Mourinho plays pragmatic, percentage football. He has historically managed good players where he gets them well drilled and organised, based predominantly around a defensive structure which sees his team sit deep and is difficult to break down. He then relies on individuals or set pieces to win him matches. When he spoke about our defeat on Sunday he is factually correct in what he said. The system and tactics were theoretically sound. It provided us with a platform to stay in the game and compete against a better side. Mourinho can't legislate for individual mistakes, he can't play the game for his players. What he's failed to understand is we are Man Utd. We don't want to play percentage football, we don't want to be the underdogs. He doesn't have a Terry to organise his defence or a Ronaldo to provide him consistent moments of individual brilliance. I think any coach in the league could manage this squad and have us in 8th position. With the players we have I don't think we would fall much lower even if I was in charge. Considering Jose CV I find this unnerving but his regular outbursts and public criticism of players have left him with bridges to build and wounds to heal. There are signs relationships have healed, results have improved but I get the impression it's a fragile peace and he's seriously up against it for a top 4 finish now.

13 Nov 2018 12:37:23
So in summary then DLIB nothing looks likely to change anytime soon.

You have suggested a team that may fit the Pep style, but there is about as much chance of Jose playing that team as Shergar leading them on to the pitch serenaded by Elvis.

Ultimately we are left in the same position (8th) with the same boring percentage type football that is driving us all insane as United fans. No one finds it funny anymore. We are close to having a gallows sense of humour here.

Souness put Neville on the spot and he was dead right, why is he not getting the best out of these players? You can take the City game out of the equation. Look at the Bournemouth game last weekend they should have been out of sight again before Tony Marshall scored. Its unacceptable.

No one fears coming to Old Trafford anymore, they fancy themselves and why shouldn't they. You make one of the biggest coups in the transfer market last January make him the best paid player in the premiership and he plays for the last 20 minutes in most games. Its an absolute disgrace.

The owners need to take up the baton here and say why are you not getting the best out of these players and getting us results on a consistent basis, when Guardiola and Klopp are?

If its all down to the manager as you allude to, then surely that is where the change needs to be made. Percentage Pragmatic Football, Its isn't working here it just isn't. This conversation is exactly the same as we had last December after we were beat by them at OT. Everyone watching a derby at OT where we looked like the away team with no spirit or pride in the jersey.

Everyone is sick to death of it. I phone mates up to see if they fancy coming watching it in the pub and the response you get is why would I want to spoil a nice afternoon's drinking watching that dross. Its not just me here, its most people you speak to.

I couldn't care less about his past record, I want a rosy future like City have got under Pep and Liverpool under Klopp, your past counts for nothing in modern football. Change needed and quickly for me.

13 Nov 2018 16:36:43
DLIB
Really good post that, interesting read.

13 Nov 2018 16:58:59
I second that. Great post DLIB.

13 Nov 2018 17:17:33
Good repost Moston I admire your passion and enthusiasm. I can't argue with much of your post, the majority of our fans feel exactly the same.

My post was speculative and rhetorical designed to illicit if people think a change of style, mentality and manager would yield considerably better results!

Let's not forget yet despite the rigid, turgid and unimaginative football as it stands Jose has won two trophies, finished runners up and reached an FA cup final. Is that really so bad?!

I think that even the most ardent supporter would accept that Pep inherited a vastly superior squad. He has been fully backed by his board who share the same ideology and ambition. Jose on the other hand has continually had to fight fires and persuade the board to bend to his will with limited success. It would appear that they are at loggerheads and have differing opinions on transfer policy and how to move the Club forward. This animosity must seep into the psyche of the players and only diminishes Jose's power within the dressing room.

Many of our fans like to dismiss Jose CV which I find disrespectful and naive. Jose has been hugely successful using his particular brand of football. He has was won titles in England, Spain, Italy and Portugal with four different teams with differing resources. He has won the Champions League with two different Clubs including the treble. He last title came only 3 years ago so to call him a dinosaur is a touch premature and short sighted. Let's not forget Pep hasn't won the Champions League since 2011. He couldn't replicate this at Bayern despite inheriting a treble winning team and he hasn't come remotely close at City. In fact Pelegrini managed to navigate City's passage to the semi finals.

Jose style is not to everyone's taste but we can't argue that's it's not been hugely successful.

His methods are reliant on organisation and discipline. This lays the foundation which is then reliant upon individuals to provide the quality up front to win the game. His best teams stifled and strangled the opposition. The opposition were lucky to create a chance never mind score a goal. His teams were hard to play against, often beaten before a ball had been kicked and certainly defeated after the first goal was scored, there was simply no way back.

He has brought some of these qualities to Utd. I think we remain unbeaten when we have scored the first goal and our win percentage in these games is ridiculously high.

Injuries, loss of form and a lack of quality in our defence has meant he has been unable to build the team on solid foundations. He has been unable to instil defensive discipline in the likes of Pogba and Martial and we have lacked the mercurial genius upfront to spearhead our attack to score and create goals.

His sullen mood preseason and confrontation with the board eroded all confidence in our fragile defenders. We are conceding chances and goals with alarming regularity and this is so unlike a Jose team.

It is my belief that the Smalling/ Lindelof axis simply isn't good enough. Both make basic mistakes on a regular basis and I wouldn't have neither anywhere near my team.

Our results have improved because Martial is now fulling his potential and delivering goals and assists on a regular basis. I've heard others suggest Lindelof has improved yet if he was performing at the same level as Martial we wouldn't be conceding so many goals and would be winning games more easily.

Any further success under Mourinho will be dependent on finding a reliable, consistent defence, capable of keeping clean sheets and the continued development and improvement in Martial providing the moments of quality required to win games. Of course if the likes of Pogba, Sanchez, Lukaku, Lingard and Rashford can also improve and replicate the form of Martial things will improve considerably.

Mourinho does have a style and method which has brought him great success, unfortunately it's not universally to our liking and without a solid defence he's facing an uphill battle!

13 Nov 2018 18:52:31
Player wise, we need to stop the obsession with high profile, expensive, often elderly players who may be good for some commercial exploitation.
Maybe a couple of top players to build a team around, but I feel some lower profile (maybe younger) additions might be better.

They would probably realise they gave had the opportunity of a lifetime come their way and would play out of their skins to keep it. This could only benefit the club and preserve funds for when we really need to splash the cash.
Just thinking - perhaps I live in fools paradise.

12 Nov 2018 23:56:35
Everyone should check out Mason Greenwood's goals at the weekend. He is scoring every week and despite being slightly too young at the moment if he continues to improve the way he has in the last 18 months he will be some player by the age of 20.

Obviously got the people calling for him to be in the team now because he can score past some 15 year olds, but I am happy seeing him grow at the right level, it does seem unfair on them young lads he's playing against though as he is a few levels above, good to see the future is bright in that department, hopefully he stays fit.

13 Nov 2018 08:16:57
Yes, let him play in the reserves now, loan him to lower leagues after may be after 2 years.
Do not rush him into First team.

13 Nov 2018 19:24:27
Had my eye on Greenwood for some time and wrote on here about him when i learnt he could take free kicks even penalties with either foot. He is close to the age when he either kicks on or stalls, perhaps like what we see from Rashford. It’s that point in a career where the best go forward, like Rooney and Ronaldo and will be too good not to play in the first team. Rashford could still get back on track but Greenwood has potential to be better

Keep your eye on James Garner as well, and look up an interesting article on him in one of the national newspapers last week.