15 Jun 2014 23:09:43
5/10 or 6/10 as usual
Beast
-------
You are just winding me up now mate, it is clear you just have a major issue with Rooney. You really think Rooney always plays 5 or 6 out of 10? I am by no means a 'Rooney lover' and try and stay away from the debate but to say that about him it is just clear you just don't like him and will say anything to slag him off.
I would suggest that Hodgson, capello, ferguson and even moyes know more about football than you and Rooney has been a main stay in every one of their teams. To say all he does is get a 5 or 6 out of 10 every game is just plain wrong.
I really think some people just can't see past their personal hatred of Rooney, sometimes quite embarrassingly.
15 Jun 2014 23:45:50
Had this discussion with beast before GDS2. You are wasting your time mate, he's got a vendetta against Rooney and you could literally bring up every bit of evidence and it will be ignored. Just take comfort in the fact that the professionals and people who get paid know how good a player Rooney is.
Since Christmas I struggle to think of hardly any stand out performances from Rooney.
SAF wanted him gone precisely because he was no longer contributing what he should be.
I don't like Rooney, I think he is a good player, but his performances for Utd and England have been very average over the past few years - save for a few months when contracts were being negotiated.
I will support him, but he is not worthy of the guaranteed start he seems to be given irrespective of performances.
15 Jun 2014 23:57:46
Rosie,
Like I said I usually ignore the Rooney debates on here so didn't realise that was the case. I think the internet people call it 'trolling'.
He is a hot topic at the minute and divides opinion.
I will lay off a bit now as I have made my views clear and have done for a while.
I hope he performs how he is capable of performing if he plays for the rest of the World Cup, but the evidence is that we are wasting a key position where somebody else could offer more.
I don't want to wind you guys up. I'm just passionate about Rooney being so over rated and it having bad effects on our team and England. IMO
16 Jun 2014 00:52:59
That's fine we all have opinions, but you managed to make the same point about him when I wasn't even saying how good he was or overrating him. I was saying I think a lot of England fans and the press have built him up to be something that he isn't and then like to slag him off when he doesn't perform like that player.
If Milner was playing on the left instead of Rooney would he have been able to play that ball in for sturridge? I doubt it. If Rooney had scored that chance that went wide everyone would be saying he played well, it's fine margins, and hopefully he will get a goal against Uruguay and get on a run.
England's biggest mistake was baines think candreva was his man that should if been Henderson or a cb because he was playing number 10 not wide right and baines should have concentrated ob darmian baines was telling rooney to travk darmian but he was pkaying wing back so he should of been baines responsibility
I think the wingers were told to tuck in which left Baines with his arse hanging out even when Welbeck went left he did the same
16 Jun 2014 07:46:58
Browred I think you hit the Nail on the Head there. That last game Rooney was getting abuse for leaving the left vulnerable however Baines was getting dragged in field where a CB or CM should have been tracking leaving our left vulnerable. This was frustrating Rooney, as let's be honest he is not known for his defensive capabilities. I personally feel they should be playing him as #10 or up front. Welbeck is better on the Left and given the vulnerabilities we had there the other night should have taken that role. Oh well as Ever England don't have a Left Mid lol. I feel for Rooney Gets nothing but a hard time no matter what he does. He might not be putting in the performances that most expect, He is definately not playing as a 5 or 6 that is absurd.
It is so ridiculous to blame Rooney for everything that happens. He is our best attacker by a country mile, and hodgson is playing him at left wing? Why not Rooney down the middle and Sturidge on the right and sterling on the left?
And while we're on the subject, what has our captain marvel, Gerrard, done in world cups? He passed the ball mostly sideways and when you needed a captain to get the team going, he was nowhere to be found.
The press are out to get Rooney as he's a united player, it is a shame to see that some of our own fans are doing their best to destroy him. Look at the facts at what he's achieved and he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.
I have this argument all the time and I agree with beast.
Can anyone remember the last time Rooney played outstanding against a top side? I honestly can't think of one
You opened this entire post saying I was wrong to give Rooney ratings out of 10 like I did. How do you expect me to respond to that in any other way than backing up why?
I love out how if somebody says the opposite to the general perceived opinion of players they are trolls, or talking out their backside - what is a banter site for? Surely its to debate points and to give rational reasons as to why you believe what you do. More and more people are coming round to my way of thinking with Rooney.
I had people calling me nuts on here because I said Schweinsteiger could be ideal and gettable - No way, what are you smoking people said. Now it is looking more and more likely a deal could be viable.
I had this with Pink Flloyd the other day about Rooney as well - there are lots of people that post similar comments and new people respond, so inevitably debates overlap on key issues like Rooney.
I think Welbeck is a good player, again am I trolling because GCU thinks he is useless? I also think Anderson has a big roll to play potentially next season. Some people will agree, but most will disagree, you didn't even know my views on Rooney so we were debating it, just because Rosie and I differed on views a few weeks ago doesn't mean I can't say what I think to your posts.
Unless everyone wants responses of yeah, you are right I don't get the point of having response options to this website if you are going to get hammered for going against the tide.
I make my points and then if somebody argues against them and I think I can articulate my point better then I will do so. I don't keep starting posts about the same subject, it's just inevitable that some people are going to package things up and similar points get covered.
As I say I will leave Rooney for a while. But 10% of Utd people would be agreeing with me 6 months ago, 40% would agree with me now. (If you don't support Utd I bet 80-90% of football people will agree with my views on Rooney). What happens with England has been happening for years with Man Utd and it is only getting worse as he gets worse.
Browred - I agree, but the whole back 4 was wrong. Johnson should have shifted, pushing the CB's further across, with Gerrard doing a better job holding - they had a CB playing right back and just one upfront. Hodgson was tactically inept thinking Rooney should be able to adjust to that situation on the left. The problem is that as much as we talk about team spirit etc, we don't talk enough or apply common sense, players don't adapt, I would love to know what they are working on in training - certainly wasn't much fitness going on either by the way we were dropping like flies.
Rooney looked lost out there first half, Danny didn't cover for the 2nd goal like he should and I don't know what Gerrard was doing defensively all game!
CB playing left back that was meant to say sorry.
16 Jun 2014 09:38:02
Fair enough you are allowed to respond, but anybody who thinks Rooney needs to leave and Anderson has a large part to play is never ever going to agree with my opinion on football.
I think most fans who go to united matches will agree that Welbeck is a good player, works hard for the team and is actually somewhat of a fan favourite at the games.
The trolling comment is based on the fact a discussion needs both parts to listen to the others opinion rather than totally ignore any evidence to the contrary and keep saying the same thing over and over. Like Rosie said, you will ignore any evidence to the contrary about Rooney, and I imagine will ignore the FACT Rooney ran 7 miles on Saturday in that heat (more than any other player) and was the only player to put a meaningful assist into the box to create a goal. Playing out of position I think he did what was asked of him (as Hodgson said after the game), that is not necessarily what you or I wanted or expected from him.
I get the feeling you would prefer him to play badly so that your opinion is correct and you can say 'I told you so' rather than ever give him a good comment if he does something well.
16 Jun 2014 10:04:38
Beast,
Whichever team was losing that game was going to struggle with fitness in the last 20 minutes. If we had been in the lead and Italy had been chasing in that heat they would have been the ones going down the cramp. Cramp isn't really anything to do with fitness, it is to do with being dehydrated, it isn't like the players were unfit so again a bit of a silly thing to say.
Well put GDS, but not worth making an effort. You can argue against substance and not piss tosh. The sad bit is United fans trying to do this, last I remember Wayne Rooney plays for us. I could almost hear the disappointment from some on here when Wazza put that ball on a plate for Sturridge. Btw some scousers jumping on the bandwagon, StevieM was a joke last game, what did he do?
Deeps.
I would love to see the Rooney of a few years back but he is no longer thar player, he always has stand out moments (cross to sturridge) but they are few at the minute. No one can question his commitment but his running is in the wrong areas, his touch is shocking for someone of his ability and with his weight issues his pace has gone.
As much as it pains me I think as a whole front unit we would be better with Lallana, .sterling, wellbeck/Barkley. Sometimes a unit of lesser players is better than square pegs in round holes.
GDS 2 & Pink - If we were sat in a pub we could cover Rooney and have a really engaging discussion I have no doubt, it's obviously difficult doing so with delayed messages and typing trying to be succinct but wanting to cover the key points so it doesn't drag out. I do see some positives in Rooney but as my key point is about Rooney not being good enough I don't want to waste time/space going over what everyone will acknowledge about him.
I do support Rooney when he plays and I want him to play as well as he can, which on his day is up there with the best, but those days come around far too infrequently for somebody that seems to command a starting place for club and country. I do listen to your comments and I am always willing to amend my assessment if something is raised that I haven't considered. I genuinely come on this website to learn about things and also to voice my concerns plus praise where necessary.
I am not criticising you guys for backing him as there is always two angles to things like this, but I genuinely don't think the argument for Rooney is strong enough. He ran 7 miles, and is constantly praised for his work ethic - yet Welbeck is slated and people say all he has is work ethic the other night. People pick and choose what they read and take in, especially when so many people repeat posts/topics because they haven't read the website from cover to cover.
The Anderson thing is a hunch, looking at how he plays the new proposed system and what potential he has to offer. But it is merely a hunch. I am far more passionate about the Rooney debate as it has been ongoing for so long now.
By the way I have never slagged off Cleverly either yet most fans on here will have done that. Does that make them lesser fans as Cleverly is one of our own?!
16 Jun 2014 11:17:50
Nobody is saying you are less of a fan mate, I am certainly not, and you are by no means the only person with the bee in their bonnet about Rooney at present.
I see both sides of the argument, I am certainly not a Rooney lover, but I think he is better than most people give him credit for, and think his main weakness is how good he should have become and how good he has actually become.
Welbeck worked hard against Italy and has plenty of pace to scare defenders, but Rooney worked hard and created a goal. It seems that the press are saying Sterling, Sturridge and Welbeck were good because they were fast and Rooney was rubbish because he wasn't fast. But Rooney was the only one who put a decent ball in all night, despite getting into less good positions than the others.
I agree we would have a great discussion in a pub, I am certainly not having a go at you as a person and can tell from how you write that you are an intelligent person with clear views and a passion for United just like the rest of us.
I don't usually get into these big debates to be honest but this one just hit a nerve as I am finding the press witch-hunt against Rooney to be somewhat unfair.
I am going to have to side with beast on this one, it may not be popular to say but Rooney is fast becoming a spent force.
Let's be honest, if the last year had been his break out season would any of us be ranting to sign him up? Let alone to the tune of 300,000 a week?
You say fergie, hodgson etc know more than us but wasn't it saf who had tried to ensure Rooney left even as he himself was going? And then you have Scholes, widely respected around the world, a former team mate and importantly a die hard utd fan. Scholes isn't the kind of guy who would say something he didn't believe and pretty much everything he's said has been spot on, even if as utd fans we don'tlike to hhear it.
I know I have been calling for Rooney to go for a while (at least 2years) but like I said when lvg was appointed where would Rooney fit in his system? We've seen he can't play out wide, rvp is a much better striker, and both mata and kagawa (and prob januzaj too) are better creatively behind rvp. Rooney seems to have the touch of an elephant now and lacks the technique and intelligence that is becoming a trademark to modern forward play.
So in short, Rooney may have been one of our better players last season, but the team would play better without him, and the money er save in his wages would be far better spenton players er actually need
Dags
16 Jun 2014 12:19:03
My post isn't really about Wayne - my views on Rooney have been expressed on here many times before, so I leave the whole thing alone now. However, I always support him when he's wearing the shirt, and have taken the view, that he's a Utd player, so any public criticism I have of him, is kept to a minimum.
But the same has to apply to all our players. It's interesting to see people on this thread take umbrage about Wayne getting slagged off, but yet they've been guilty of coming out with the most ridiculous, over-the-top abuse against other players, on this site over the last few seasons. There seems to be a serious case of double standards.
Fellaini is the new focus of their opprobrium, before he'd even kicked a ball in most cases. Before that it was Cleverley. There's always Young, Nani, Anderson, etc etc.
Maybe these players aren't good enough for Utd, in fact in some cases they're obviously not, but why would they ever have turned down the chance to come to OT and play for us? I'm sure, even though I don't rate him, that Young's confidence must be shot to pieces when he hears his own fans shouting abuse at him. Same goes for Cleverley.
In another lifetime, these guys wouldn't have got into a Utd team, but the fact remains that they're Utd players, and unless they commit the cardinal sin of not trying, then they deserve a bit of support from their own fans.
Or at least a cessation to the abuse. Constructive criticism is fine, the odd frustrated venting of frustration after a bad result is understandable, but we all know that it goes far beyond constructive criticism, and one-off, frustrated rants.
I've learned to hold my tongue on Wayne, I challenge some on here to extend the same courtesy to other, less-exalted players this coming season. let's not do the opposition supporters' work for them
If you've nothing good to say about someone, etc etc etc.
16 Jun 2014 12:58:18
Stevie,
I will assume that wasn't aimed at Mr Optimistic GDS?
I definitely back the players, I will say if they have a bad game but I will always try and find the positives in them all. Some of them this is more difficult than others though obviously!
16 Jun 2014 12:58:18
Stevie,
I will assume that wasn't aimed at Mr Optimistic GDS?
I definitely back the players, I will say if they have a bad game but I will always try and find the positives in them all. Some of them this is more difficult than others though obviously!
16 Jun 2014 13:20:04
No, mate, not at all. Just some on here in general, and one in particular :)
16 Jun 2014 14:10:04
I think I get it ;)
Nice one GDS2 it's important we know where we are coming from mate. I think the key thing with Rooney is everyone knows how good he was and how great he can be. The dispute comes down to risk/reward, I am ruthless with Rooney because I used to have that excitement before any game I saw his name on the team sheet, I had that buzz when he picked up the ball, some people may have it still, but they are growing less by the day. That has gone for me now, it is just the same as a normal player picking up the ball when Rooney has it - I think most supporters will admit he has not delivered enough over recent years to satisfy what we expected from him.
However it all comes down to timing now, how much time and respect do you afford players for timed served and in memory of the good times - is it acceptable to be man of the match 1 in 7 games (roughly) when you have such a key role in a team like Utd, I don't think so, especially when those games are against fodder, typically.
The same happened with Giggs to a degree - 10 years ago he was untouchable, past few years the majority are dreading seeing his name anywhere near the team - Legend, still had some moments of class (Leverkusen), but on the whole more of a gesture playing him than a benefit to the teams now and future.
Rooney will be a United legend without doubt. But we live in a fickle world and ruthlessness is now necessary to be the best. Not everyone will agree when the time is right to sever ties with a legend of our club, which is why it is hotly debated and people are reluctant to commit whole heartedly one way or the other. It's like betrayal, but my loyalty is to Man Utd not the individuals, because the individuals look after number 1 - Rooney has proven that time and again by the way!
Whilst they wear the shirt they get our support, but it doesn't mean they are immune from sensible critiques even coming from their own.
Good post Stevie, a lot of us have been guilty of doing it.
Deeps.
Beast, even though I do not agree entirely with your last post but nevertheless, a very good one. You are spot on mate about that feeling of excitement everytime he is on the ball, I still retain that.
Deeps.
Beast
At last a post I would agree with I think your last post is spot on .
Rooney has been at the club for a long time now longer than some have supported the club and people have got bored of him.
So what if he scores more than mata or kags or gets more assists people have got a bit bored with him and want a new toy.
Kagawa has not had one good 90 minutes for united in 2 year hardly got a goal or an assist but people scream for him to play .
Why because he is new something to get excited about, it can't be what he has done on the pitch .
{Ed004's Note - I doubt we could get either of marchisio or Vidal let alone both}