Manchester United Banter Archive September 15 2013

15 Sep 2013 20:05:05
From the Telegraph (via tv Football Gossip)

Manchester United manager David Moyes says his predecessor Sir Alex Ferguson told him the Champion League group the Red Devils are in is "one of the hardest draws United have ever had" in the competition.

Either Moyes is telling porkpies or SAF has lost the plot!
Very easy draw! Smells of a lack of confidence to me and one of them is getting the excuses in early just in case. Check out Group F if you think Group A is hard.

Very easy draw? Now come on.

Leverkusen finished 3rd behind Bayern and Dortmund and ahead of Schalke. They have some quality players. Players that many on here have thought would be good for United.

Shaktar may have lost Willian, Mkhitaryan and Fernandinho, but they have some quality players like Adriano, Bernard and Douglas Costa(remember him?)

Soceidad finished 4th in La Liga. They've lost Illaramendi, but still have the likes of Griezmann, Martinez and Vela.

I agree that it's one of the hardest we have had in a while.

Maybe he's just gearing up the players so that they don't underestimate the opposition. Either that or they've both lost the plot lol.

Don't underestimate the teams we are up against. It's not a tough group because we are paired against the giants of europe.

It's a potential tough group because we have three talented decent teams who we know very little about.

Bayer Leverkusen are a very good German side, they have some exellent players such as Bernd Leno, Emre Can, Lars Bender, Stefan Kiessling and Heung Min Son. But we don't know how they will approach playing in europe as they haven't been I the champions league under their current manager. So we have very little to go on as to what to expect.

Real Sociedad like wise are a very good Spanish side who are very good at keeping possession. They were the best team based on form in the final third of La Liga last season. They are as good as Athletic Bilbao were when they knocked us out of europe a couple of seasons ago. They have some very good players in their team too such as Inigo Martinez, Jose Angel, Antione Griezmann and Carlos Vela. So they are no push over.

Shakhtar Donesk are a proven quality team who have shown in recent years that they can beat the best teams in europe. No one enjoys a trip to eastern europe in winter and that gives them a huge edge in our away game against them. They too have a squad peppered with some top talent such as Darijo Srna, Yaroslav Rakitskiy and Taras Stepanenko along with their usual spattering of Brazilians such as Douglas Costa, Taison, Ilsinho, Wellington Nem and new Brazilan wonder kid Bernard. They are no push over.

So although we don't have tough sides such as Dortmund or AC Milan in our group we have three very capable teams which we know very little about. This will make the preperation very hard, and the tactics and team selection for each game harder to get right than it would be against a team such as Dortmund.

There is no easy game in our group, no team of which we can be almost certain of picking up 6 points against. All of them are very capable of beating us at their home stadium. If we win all our home games then we still need a result againt one of them away to get the 10 points which normally sees you through to the next round. And its far from certain that we will win all our home games.

As said each team has the ability to get a result against us at home meaning we will need to get a win and a draw away against them.

How conifdent are you of us getting at least one win out of a trip to Spain Germany and the Ukraine?

Not as easy as you thought hey?

It could have been a lot worse but it could have been a bit better too. It's the trickiest group we've had in a few years and there aren't any whipping boys but still there are no excuses other than to progress.

Also Sociedad have got some great young players. Inigo Martinez looks to be a very, very good prospect at CB, having already got a cap for Spain aged 22. Also Ruben Pardo who, from what I have seen and heard, could be a truly exceptional player. One of my friends (Bilbao fan but can still appreciate their Basque rivals) says that he is much better than Illaramendi and neither of us would be surprised to see him move to a bigger club sooner rather than later

It could be SAFs way of giving Moyes confidence when United finish 1st in the group but could also be a way of forcing Moyes to not Underestimate any of the opposition in the group.

Would he fit into our midfield Jaxer? I don't know much about Pardo.

I think he would make a good eventual replacement for Carrick, (as much as I hate using FM descriptions) he is a deep lying playmaker but can also be used more box-to-box because his work rate is very good. He is typically Spanish in that he regards losing possession as a mortal sin however he is quite slight so would need to bulk up a little but at the age of 20 I wouldn't expect him to be too stacked. I've not seen a huge amount of him, only a couple of games, but he has always impressed. My friend rates him extremely highly

Also despite playing quite deep he always seems to want to play on the front foot, ie not as many sideways passes as cleverly

Behave. We have an awkward trip to Leverkusen, who will never be easy. We have a trip to Spain, where our record is average at best and we have a very long trip to Ukraine. Hardly one of the easiest we've had.

I posted a while ago that this is a tough group and we will need to win all our home games. The away trips are all tricky, with leverkusen virtually a fortress at home and we don't do very well against Spanish sides away more often than not. Moyes assessment is spot on and we better be on ready to play or could suddenly find ourselves in trouble. Having said that I expect us and Sociadad to go through.

They are going to be tricky away ties particularly Shaktar. All 3 teams particularly Shaktar and Leverkusen can dive around a lot drawing fouls and cards etc which can dramatically change a game.

Supasub

Hmm. We have a few guys who would give Greg Loganes a run for his money for diving too and currently making all the wrong headlines :(

15 Sep 2013 17:34:37
I just can't understand how some people so confidently say that some of the academy kids will be able to replace Carrick, Evra, Vidic.

Now I don't want to sound too negative but how many world class layers have we produced from our academy in the past 10 yrs?

Lets not assume that the kids are going to be good. We are not Barca or Ajax.

And don't give me that its a squad game $h1t, Carrick Evra and Vidic are first teamers.

Though I do hope some of the kids turn out to be World class, its about time we had a second round of Scholes Neville Giggs and Beckham.

We haven't brought a top player through the ranks for ages

I am struggling to understand the reason for your outburst. Kids do not have to be world-class. Only Vidic out of those three could be described as world-class. I would say Jones will replace him fine when he leaves.

There is no reason why we couldn't buy a left-back to replace Evra and another midfielder to replace Carrick. Although Fellaini is clearly a long-term replacement for Carrick and a more creative midfielder will be sought.

Ajax haven't produced much in the last 10 years. Barca are a bit of an exception. Bayern have produced a few recently. It's just speculation at the end of the day but the foundations have been put there with the academy now in place and the training facilities which will make a difference over the coming years and beyond.

This post is very very naive. A couple of points really.

1. It is not just a case of oh we need another set of youngsters like that so we have one, that was an absolute freak and doesn't happen very often.

2. It is obvious you are stating this based on not seeing any of the young lads play, and arguing with people who have seen them play and improve and who said they have the 'potential' to be first teamers. A lot of players don't fulfil their potential but we definitely have a good set of lads coming through who IF they fulfilled their potential would be first teamers for united.

Pogba is the best player we have produced in a very long time. But he was only here from 15-19.

15 Sep 2013 18:04:55
I'm not confident as such, more hopeful. We have some very talented youngsters and if given a chance then they may be able to replace some of our current first team players in time.

We need to be realistic they won't come in and imediately be as good as the players they are replacing but with time and experiance they could grow into as important players as the ones they are replacing.

If you look at our best youth players we have Johnstone, Micheal Keane, Tyler Blackett, Tom Thorpe, Charni Ekangamene, Ben Pearson, Jack Barmby, Adnan Januzaj, Andres Pereria, Will Keane and Angelo Henriquez who all look like potentially very good players. that's 11 very good young players, and there are others. It would be madness to expect all of them to make it, but there is a good chance that 3 or 4 will be good enough for at least a squad place with our club, maybe a first team spot if they can reach their potential.

Manchester United have had a academy player in the first team for 3, 464 consecutive games dating back to 1937.

Just sit back and consider that fact for a second. In every single game since 1937 we have named an academy player in the first team squad.

We are a team that promotes our youth players and we put our trust in them. I think some times fans look on who the new flash name player is for us to bring in rather than looking abit closer to home for who will be the next great player at our club.

Some of the greatest players to have ever graced our club have come through our own academy, from Charlton and Best to Giggs and Scholes.

So I don't think i'm a fool for hoping that we continue with our proud tradition, and I sit and wait to see who will be the next Old Trafford legend to come through our academy.

None of the players you have mentioned are world class.

They were good or relatively unknown additions made better by SAF.

You could argue that Ronaldo and to a lesser extent Rooney are world class products of our youth system due to the age when they came to.

i do think are current academy, reserve players could individually equal the talent of the class of 92.

pgoba - butt
ravel - beckham
Powell - scholes
adnan - giggs
Fabio - p nev
raph - g nev

obviously two of them aren't with us any more, but technically is there a lot between these groups at the same age.
difference is now players are recruited world wide.

the class of 92 will in my time never be recreated as its few and far between you get a group of 6 coming through to have great careers. They we good individuals not world class scholes and possibly giggs aside. But were a world class unit.

it just was right place right time right manager.

we could have a team in the next few years with a few academy products and a few selected possible talents.

Sydney you haven't understood what i'm saying.

Shappy i'm hopeful too. But how many of those players are fit enough to play for other bigger sides

Would Barca take Clevs or Welbz. They are good squad players and we need them but it has been a long long time since we produced a world class talent.

If I'm honest it's something I do have an issue with, with our traditions and the money we spend on youth development it must be nearly 15 year since we produced a top class player

I think many may of missed the op point.

Further down the page there is a discussion about Jones, smalling being as good as vidic and Ferdinand.
Now vidic and ferdy were imo for a number of years the best cb partnership in the world.
I think there is always a bit of over hype which is only natural when it comes to our kids but the truth is very few make it to the level required for a team like United,

Beckham was world class in his prime and so was G. Neville.

Januzaj, Powell (if you want to include him in this list), Cole, Lingard, Will and Michael Keane all look like top quality youngsters that could one day be called 'world class'. Our u21 is always competitive so I don't know why you're so negative about our youth system? let's not forget Pogba just because he left for Juve!

Mumbai Boy it is impossible to predict if an academy player will make the massive leap to a first team regular
but as a frequent watcher of the youngsters please watch out for the most talented and prolific striker I have seen in ages'his name is James Wilson he captains the under 18s and
looks like the real deal
If you have not seen the goal he scored last week Arsenal I suggest you do so
ARB

We were spoiled with the class of 92 it will never happen again in modern football.i watch our youngsters regulary and don't think many will enjoy a long career with us.u21, s obviously adnan, varela is still an unkown, henriquez its still too early, lingard i'm still unsure he will make the big step up, pettrucci I would like to see have a good injury free spell and see where that goes he has the talent, cole I don't think will make it with us, powell needs a good spell of games at wigan again he has the talent.will keane before he got badly injured was unbelievable in front of goal I hope he comes back the same player, if he does there's every chance of a career at utd.michael keane jurys still out he had a shocker against liverpool u21, s the other week.u18, s we have some very good prospects peraira, lawrence, pearson has huge potential as does james wilson who scores for fun.nearly forgot sam johnstone very well thought of so who knows.

Jred

It is an issue only if we do not spend proper money in the transfer market and nothing coming through the youth system. In a perfect world we would get one top class player every few years from the academy and build around them but that has not happened since the 90's.

ARB I agree mate that its hard to predict, I just don't understand what is the reason we haven't had good players coming from the academy.

I would put my house on James Wilson being a truly world class player in four to five years time regardless of how old he will be ie only 21 or 22, he is going to be lethal unless he has a injury which completely wrecks his career and Ben Pearson looks a good prospect both the Keanes have a good chance to make the grade and Andreas Pereira is very talented to so I would say the future is very bright on the home grown side of things on top of that we have Januzaj nuff said

Are people purposely forgetting Pogba? The best player who has graduated from our academy since Paul Scholes. Pogba was good enough to build a team around.

@MUMBAI_BOY
I think the most important reason is the competitiveness of the league. No top club, looking for silverware, wants to take a risk for even a single point and hence players are not getting game time at the top level. If you look at Spanish League or German League top clubs can score 4 goals and have game won at half time, this allows the manager to give more time to younger players. I was really pleased to see Januzaj the other night because at 1-0 DM showed faith in him. Would he have brought on Januzaj if Palace we 11 men? I don't think so.

God created United

G Neville world class - have a word with yourself.

Gerard Pique was here from 16-20? Does that count as a world class player who we have produced?

Syd
Did we not buy pogba when he was 16 I'm not sure how much credit we can claim there

15 Sep 2013 21:17:30
MM you need to have a word, name five better right backs in world football between 96-06. Tell ya what I'll make it easy. Name one. O you can't. {Ed007's Note - Cafu.}

The word world class is banned round far to much. I generally feel world class means the best 10 players from any position in the world over a few year period. Great players is the best 10 players in their position over a few year period the rest categorised as good average hit and miss so on. Obviously there is a hall of fame from an historical view point.

Gary Neville or David Beckham do not qualify as world class.

Cafu was a right wing forward, he only appeared at right back on the team sheet. {Ed007's Note - So who played right back for Roma and Brazil and isn't a right wing forward just the same as a right winger?}

MrE

Cafu Brazil 1990s (Sao Paulo/Roma/Milan)

Lilian Thuram France 1990s/00s (Monaco/Parma/Juventus)

Javier Zanetti Argentina 1990s/2000s (Inter)

Gianluca Zambrotta Italy 2000s (Juverntus/Barcelona)

Sergio Ramos Spain 2000s (Sevilla/Real Madrid)

Daniel Alves Brazil 2000s/2010s (Sevilla/Barcelona)

yawn

Can't believe some posters saying Beckham and Neville weren't world class.

I'm not even going to bother justifying my disagreement

MM and Ed

Whilst those players might have been better in one part of the game, Neville was more of a complete player at right back.

A few years back, I was at a charity dinner with Sir Bobby as a special guest and one of the key auctions was the 1999 treble winning team autographed Jersey and ended outbidding everyone and spent a few hours with him during dinner and drinks. His own words where G. Neville and paul Scholes are the best of the lot and World class. G. neville was a quite performer and maybe not flamboyant but he was as solid as you could get defending and could always get forward and put a quality ball in the box and pass it around.

BTW I agree on Zanetti and Cafu being up there.

Sydney

I think Pogba is being ignored given the topic of having world class players come through to first team and in his case he left. He was also very highly touted when we stole him and came into our academy quite late unlike some of the other guys.

I agree he would have been a great player to build your midfield around, has everything and a massive loss when we look back in few years. Still prefer Vidal Though :) beast and complete midfielder and Juve are very lucky/astute to have those 2 for next to nothing.

Marchisio might be an option in the January window as he is not getting much game time.

I think Gary Neville was one of the best in his position, especially when he started using the overlapping with Beckham.

Up until then he had been quite a one-dimensional player, but he and Beckham obviously worked on that part of the game quite a lot, and he became a lot more potent going forward.

Becks obviously helped him with his crossing too, as that aspect of his game also improved considerably as he reached his peak.

GCU, have to agree G. Neville was world class. He was solid as you like at the back, and had a great cross on him, his only downfall was he lost his pace so quickly in his 30's that I think people must be remembering him like that. That is the only reason I can fathom that people would discount him behind any of the other players mentioned in this thread. Yes cafu fantastic in attack and by far technically better than Neville, but for me Neville was by far a better defender, which for me as a RB is far more important. In fact Ashley Cole springs to mind for a comparison, outstanding in defence, and pretty damn good going forward.

15 Sep 2013 14:45:38
Had this debate in the Pub last night with two scousers, a leeds and a blackburn fan.

If you were a World class player who grew up supporting a team other than United (sacrilege I know) and the top 2 clubs from each country in Europe wanted to sign you, who and how would you choose.

Manager?
Wages?
Weather? (Players have wives too?)
History?
Supporters?
Style of Play?
Pals?
Status?
Ego?
Sales Pitch fro Club?

Year after year we seem to be linked with big names but we seem to fail to lure them to our great club. I can accept (barely) players might want to sign for Madrid, Barca and Munich but how do we miss out on so many.

Is KLOOT right, are the Glaziers minding the purses and just using media spin to keep us happy.

Did SAF only sign players who wanted to play for UNITED.

Giggs, Neville G & P, Scholes, Solksaer, Carrick, O'Shea, Keane, Rio all bleed red.

The most successful period in our history has come from players who lived united.

So anyway %U^K Ronaldo and his UNITED is the past comments and let's get back to the trusted formula, Youth and players who want to play for the club and when top players want to play for us get the cheque book out.

PS what's the deal with the no.7 jersey now?

It is kind of a loaded question. Some clubs don't need to work as hard as other to get players. Barca and Real obviously will always beat other clubs to a player as they have it all. History weather, money, status, style.

Funny enough I think we are up there because we are an enigma and have incredible history and tradition and until this summer always play our cards close to our chest and never seem to have player issues and disruption which had a lot to do with SAF.

I don't believe for one minute half the bs the media reports about us and players turning us down.

We supposedly offered 150 million for bale, made me laugh.

Finally, I think the number 7 Jersey will go next summer. Your guess is as guess as mine :)

I reckon we give it Januazaj. But I completely agree about using the same formula we have over so man years. of course it would of been great to get Ronnie back, but he isn't going anywhere so it seems. I think we concentrate on the youth, with the likes of Zaha, Januazaj, Powell, Lingard, Henriquez, Keane, etc and add to it in the next two transfer windows, with the likes of Shaw and Barkley. We would have a fantastic nucleolus to our team that would all know each other inside out and could be playing together for years to come. Fingers crossed

Wages
Status
Weather
Manager
Style of play
In that order for me.

Elvis - think you lot need to stop dreaming over Barkley, that's a player Everton won't sell and a player UTD couldn't afford

AvitURS - Why couldn't we afford him? I think we're in a pretty decent position with him to be honest, hasn't he said he owes a lot to Moyes for giving him his chance etc.? He would be 20 mil max. IMO and i'm sure that would be spread out over a number of years due to success at club and international level, whoever he goes to, because he will move on eventually if Everton are not fulfilling his own ambitions and he wants to progress his career further, and no club can deny anyone that.

Don't tell me Avit, Barkley is once a blue always a blue? Kenwright needs the money whoever it is who comes in for your players. You are I'm afraid a selling club and will be for a while. Everyone has there price.

15 Sep 2013 18:09:58
Location-not just weather but the local area is just ad important.
Style of play and playing time.
Wages.

In that order. All clubs have their own history and prestige and I don't think you can choose one club over another based on its history.

I hope so there are a lot of better midfielders out there than Barkeley.

Listen guys Everton may be a selling club but I can assure you right now they will not sell Barkley for a long time and as for Elvis saying they would accept £20 mill is just hilarious.He is not worth that much now but could be worth £50-£60 mill in 2 or 3 years.Everton are not in a position where they need to sell and United would be the last club besides Liverpool they would sell to.Forget about him, it'll never happen!.

I think maybe if Januzaj progresses really well this year then give him the number 7 shirt next summer.

Paul if spurs managed to buy erriksen for 12m then I can't see how Barkley will ever be worth 50-60m.

Not sure where all this Barkley talk is coming from and frankly don't want to go through another soap opera with the scousers.

Why buy something that might not come good and yet to be proven?

Rather sign a Vidal, Hernanes, or the guy from Inter (can't remember his name).

Vidal is a beast and reminds of Keane but with more technical ability and not the crazy stuff.

Also Paul 1878 - I was talking about the next two transfer windows when we would make our move for him and IMO he would be worth up to 20 mill max, but that would be add ons etc. So probs about 12/14 up front. Everyone has their price my friend, but of course Everton wouldn't want to lose him, however it would come down to several factors and not just price. We will see

Paul 1878- 50/60 million in 2 or 3 years? haha don't be silly

OZ
januzaj would be given the No 11 when Giggs retires next season

50/60 mill

If you throw in Mirales and 3 or 4 other players it is possible.

15 Sep 2013 13:23:45
Heres something I do to try and see where the weaknesses lie with our squad, it's very useful and enables you to get a clearer picture of what is needed.

The best way to see what our squad needs is to imagine what the first team will look like in three years time if no one is signed in that time.

Well DDG will still be in goal with Amos and/or Johnstone as his understudy, and Rafael at RB with Vermijl or Valera as cover, the centre of defence looks strong with Evans, Smalling, Jones and even Micheal Keane all vying for a strating spot. Left back is an issue as Evra will be long gone leaving Fabio and Buttner neither of which looks first team material but rather solid squad options. But the question is will either of them even be here in three years time, I doubt it. So clearly a top class or potential top class LB is required.

Now I know this isn't rocket science but it does highlight the need with such little competition in this position. Our options here are do we go for someone like Luke Shaw and just except the occasional mistake as he's still learning or do we go for someone like Coentrao who is ready and top class now but need to replace him in a few years time. Tyler Blackett may yet make it, although he seemed to go backwards last season, imo he needs a loan to a champoinship team to push him now.

In midfield, well Carrick will be 36 and unlikely to still be at the club, Giggs will be long gone and Fletcher will too in all likelihood along with Anderson. This will leave us with Fellaini and Powell as first choice imo with Cleverley as cover.
Now we have some good prospects coming through Charni Ekangamene could act as cover for Fellaini, but we are missing a player who in my opinion can act as the main man between Carrick leaving and Powell being ready to step up. We also have young Ben Pearson who could be a great player for us coming through the ranks.

I think we need a player who is top class and is in their mid to late 20's who can challenge Carrick now and maybe take his place in a year or two's time and then keep it until Powell is ready in 3/5 years time to be first choice. that's why imo we have maybe looked at Fabregas, Modric and Marchisio as they are all 27/28 and would be great options now and would be phasing out of the team at a time when Powell would be pushing for the first team spot.

Then we move into the more advanced positions, Imo Rooney is unlikely to still be here in three years time and if he is still here then he will be a squad player as his body type and life style will catch up with him in his early 30's. Young and probably Valencia will have likely moved on by this point as they will be in their early 30's and few wingers can keep on going up and down the wing into their mid thirties. But the good news is that imo we already have all the players we need to replace them in the first team, With Kagawa taking the central position being flanked by Zaha and Januzaj, we'll also have players such as Welbeck, Lingard, Barmby, Pereira and Daehli to add competition in this area.

So any player signed for this area of the pitch could be viewed as a luxury signing and not really needed unless we lose a couple of the as for mentioned players.

We need a striker though, RvP will be 33/34 in three years time and will certainly not be first choice material anymore(although he probably will still be a valuable squad option ala Larsson). Now if we look at the potential options to replace him, well Rooney won't be able to play that role anymore due to lack of fitness, Welbeck is a good squad option but not first choice material, Hernandez is a great striker but is sadly unlikely to still be here in three years time due to lack of playing time and him not offering enough in his all round game to take RvP's shirt off him. So I think in the next year or two we will need to find a new striker. We have a few good youngsters but very few young strikers have made it through our youth ranks due to the nature of their position, they need a lot of game time to fine tune their abilities and to gain confidence yet as a club challenging for all the top prizes we can't afford to give these youngsters the time they need. We've seen it with Rossi and how good he has become but he just couldn't get the game time he needed with us.

With that in mind we will probably need to sign a top striker or someone who is ready to step up to be a top striker. Benteke and Heung Min Son look like interesting options to keep an eye on, both are different types of strikers but they share that ability to hit the target when given a half chance. Benteke is more like your Drogba type striker, a player who can hold the ball up with his strength will win most headers and can create space with his pure strength. Heung Min Son is more like RvP and as such maybe a better fit to replace him as the team won't have to adapt much to the new striker. He uses his movement and has pace, he likes to drift wide and cut in, he creates space by dragging players away with his movement.

So I think we need a LB in January as the need is that dire, Shaw is unlikely to be in contention for a place at the world cup should England make it so he could be persuaded to leave in January. If Coentrao is struggling for playing time at Madrid then he maybe kean to join a team to get the first team football he'll need to prepare him for the world cup. So either of these players should be achievable in January.

Unfortunately the world class midfielder we need is very unlikely to be happy to move in January, Fabregas is out of the question now imo which leaves Modric and Marchisio as the best options. Both would have to wait until the summer, but both will be very hard to get, Modric has made himself a key player to Madrid in Alonsos absence, and Marchisio is a local lad playing for his boyhood team and challenging and winning titles with them, why would he want to leave? With few other options we may have to drop down a step in quality and sign someone like Cabaye(who is still a very good player and under rated by many) or sign someone younger such as Clasie or Koke but they will hinder Powell's development.

The signing of a striker imo isn't needed until Hernandez decides he wants to leave, be that next summer or the summer after. At which point a move for either Benteke or Son may be a good move, or maybe someone else has emerged as a better option by that time.

Shappy
are smalling and Jones going to be good enough.
I like smalling but he has not pushed on as much as I thought he would. Jones will be a top player but I'm not sure what position.
Kean, Evans, smalling, Jones will any of them be as good as vidic Ferdinand are they going to reach the very top.
You have Powell down as a cm he's a second striker for me .
Rooney and rvp are top players and will take a lot of replacing

Also I would look at Barkley to replace carrick

Smalling has been injured Jred. It's difficult to progress when you are injured and therefore not playing. Jones will be as good as Vidic is now, if not better IMO. Smalling & Evans are both better than Rio is now, but have both struggled with injuries, Smalling has missed a lot of time through operations and injury. Keane is very highly regarded, but perhaps a couple of years away.

15 Sep 2013 14:35:21
Rio and Vidic didn't show their class until they were around 25. Defenders need time to gain experiance. Both Jones and Smalling have all the natural attributes needed to become world class CBs. They are strong in the air and in the tackle, they have pace and they have the technical quality to pass the ball out from the back. What they both lack is the experiance of how to deal with certain situations. I don't have any worries about Smalling, he had a great first season but had an injury interupted second season and as such has stuggled for consistancy since, but the quality is still there.

I think Powell's long term future lies in midfield, both Dario Gardi and Sir Alex feel that will be where his long term future lies also. I think he will take a similar path as Scholes who started off as a striker then moved to a second striker then a midfielder then finally ended up as a deeplying playmaker in the closing stages of his career.

I agree that both Rooney and RvP will take a lot of replacing, but I don't think that it will be impossible to replace them. We need to focus more on improving the team so we are less reliant on one or two world class players to make the difference.

Shappy we sold daehli?

Shappy, wasn't Daehli sold this summer? Not sure if we have a buy-back option.

15 Sep 2013 15:04:34
Caolan, we did indeed but we have a buy back clause and I expect us to activate that in a couple of years time if he progresses as hoped.

Rio had the class when he was young he stood out like a sore thumb and imo at one point was the best cb the world.
Vidic developed later, I'm not sure about smalling I think he will be a good player but I'm just starting to question how good.
Jones will be a top player but he needs to pick a position.
Shappy
I've seen gradi talk about Powell as a second striker or even a cantona type never seen him mention him as a cm to be honest. He could prob play there but imo he will make a better second striker than centre midfielder

I agree with Jred, Powell is an attacking midfielder. He is suited to the hole. SAF wanted to waste him in midfield like he has tried to do with many natural attacking midfielders.

I disagree in regards to Smalling, just because fans haven't seen him in a MU shirt for a while they assume he isn't wanted. Smalling is getting over some very awkward operations.

People forget how good a player is when they aren't playing. I would tell them to watch the MU/City game where Rooney scored the overhead kick again. Smalling was best player on the pitch.

Syd
But in the other city game it was smalling who lost his man and we conceded the goal .
Don't get me wrong I'm a fan but I'm starting to have questions for various reasons, no point going in to them
Hope he has a good run with out injuries and finds some form

Syd
Also not sure who doesn't want smalling?

Jred, very true, but it was Smalling's first game in months if I remember correctly? CB's need a long run of games and that is difficult when Ferdinand & Vidic are both fit and playing. I suspect he will feature against Liverpool in the League Cup alongside Evans. It's a catch 22 situation with CB's, they need a run of games to get their foot in, but without a run of games they are not trusted for the big game.

"Who doesn't want Smalling" What I meant was people assume if a player isn't being picked to play, it's because the manager doesn't want them. People forget it's a squad game and that it's important that the manager picks the same XI for stability early on in a season. When we start playing in Europe and in domestic cups we will see more players being played.

I'd give Fabio a longer run at left back, he needs games playing at Utds level and will kick on in my opinion. the QPR move will have been great for him, just look at what Andros Townsend is doing for Spurs now. So I would replace Evra with Fabio next season and then look for cover (we have Evans that can drop in if needed as well).

Midfield, I reckon we could get Schweinsteiger next summer, marquee signing to replace Carrick who will be more of a squad player.

Wings is an issue for me, we still need a world class winger. Konoplyanka for me, with Zaha, Januijz (spl) adding options. Valencia as cover, out with Young and Nani.

Rooney isn't a key man anymore for me and we will likely go in hard for Lev, also read that llorente isn't settling at Juve today (maybe swap with Hernandez next summer?). Also isn't Henriques meant to be one for a couple of years when RVP goes?

RVP won't hang around to be a squad player, likely end up going back to Holland in a couple of seasons time.

Syd
Like I said he's a good player will he reach the very top, who knows
Nowt else to say really

15 Sep 2013 12:14:14
For me, the biggest plus with Fellaini coming in is the amount of freedom that Carrick is going to get. He will be more involved with the attack, play through balls more frequently and Rooney will not have to drop deep trying to get the ball or work something out.

Fellaini looked solid. My favourite moment of the match was when Marouane bumped a Palace player off the ball. When was the last time we saw a United player do that? I think he is going to be a class addition.

Talking of favourite moments how silky was Carrick's footwork in the build up to the Rooney to Rvp effort crashing against the bar? He was more like Andres Carrickesta, looked superb! I wish and hope he gets the freedom to do it more often.

Deeps.

15 Sep 2013 13:30:16
This was exactly why I said it was more important that we sign a DM type player than an AM type player this summer. Although like most I hoped we would sign both.

People forget Carrick started out as an AM and I think it was Sir Alexs plan to play him more advanced with Hargreaves playing deeper, unfortunately Hargreaves never worked out and Fletcher had health issues and Carrick had to drop back and cover our midfield defficiences.

With Fellaini in the team it will give more freedom to Carrick and our full backs hopefull enabling us to force ourselves onto our opponants more and allow us to dictate the game from the front foot.

If only we signed a left back too. lol

Technically speaking carrick is superb, he has very good close control and has a silky touch and hopefully the presence of fellaini will give him more freedom.

It was chamakh and phil Jones aside we have no other player in midfield who can overpower opposition attackers when on the ball.

That is why I don't rate Cleverly, because he is suppose to be doing what Carrick did yesterday when Fellini came on and the roles were switched and he does none of it. Carrick is too good to be sitting back there and mopping up things.

If we had a 3rd quality creative midfielder type a Fellaini, Carrick and X would be a great way to play especially in Europe.

Hows it going, Deeps.

Fully agree with regards Carrick and Fellaini. If they stay fit it has the looks of a solid CM partnership. I also particularly enjoyed Fellaini's strength and aerial ability yesterday, haven't seen that in our team for ages, lol. There was one moment when he held off a player, took it down on the chest and flicked it on the volley over the player to a team mate. It's that physical presence and composure that we've lacked next to Carrick IMO.

Shahram

You know I am not the biggest Cleverly fan around, but I have to agree with Syd when he says that SAF has tried to convert many a AMs to Deep lying playmakers.

I have seen Clevs when he was developing, he was way better playing further forward for the reserves and then Wigan and Watford. He is no good trying to mop up behind Carrick and plays the simple passes. He isent as good as Carrick with the through balls either.

Bit of a fix, I know he is not as talented as a lot of other midfielders, but he would have done a better job playing further forward. I was scared SAF may do it with Powell. So while we can blame Cleverly for not being the answer to our midfield woes, it does not help when the greatest manager of all time is one of the worse ones calling tactics and playing square pegs in round holes. Its funny how Phil Jones gets out of ideas when he has the ball whilst playing midfield. We have to immediately stop playing people in ncorrect positions.

I genuinely hope Tom Cleverly has a good career ahead, he is our academy product and whatever people may say, he is not THAT bad a player. May be overrated by some but underrated by many more. I hope getting Fellaini spurs him onto better things.

Gav

I am doing pretty good mate. I echo your sentiments, its just so much fun to see a United player literally bullying others around. Can't wait to see him give Yaya some of his own medicine.

Deeps.

Shahram, if that is what Cleverley is supposed to do then why is it Cleverley who collects the ball from the defence? Cleverley's job is not to get forward, he sits deep WITH Carrick. When he is given a free role forward he actually plays much better than when he is playing in CM.

Carrick was able to go forward yesterday due to Palace parking the bus. Do not expect to see Carrick bursting forward against City. He will sit deep with Fellaini unless we are chasing a goal, just like Carrick would sit deep with Cleverley. If we are chasing a goal I would expect Carrick and Fellaini to take turns getting forward.

Yesterday Palace parked the bus. They had two rows of back four. Carrick and Fellaini were both able to get forward due to having no midfield to battle with. Palace were pegged into their own half all game, that will not be the case against City or most other games for that matter. Carrick and Fellaini will be a good partnership I'm sure, but yesterday's game shouldn't be used as an example.

Deeps, my point exactly. If Cleverley is given licence to get forward then he would do. He is a far better player when played in an advanced position. The role they have gotten him to do these past years do not suit his attributes. He had one summer to adapt there due to us missing out on Nasri and then Sneijder and IMO has done it very well considering. Watching him in the academy and on loan as a left winger/CAM scoring and assisting for fun, then during a preseason (3 weeks) watching him play in central midfield just in case we missed out on Sneijder was strange. Then seeing him and Anderson do well up until his injury, then SAF still failing to bring in a central midfielder and seeing Cleverley play there long term. Then seeing him get stick, if people realised he wasn't a central midfielder and then after three weeks of a preseason was moulded into one, you would think people would appreciate him a little more. People think Cleverley has always been a central midfielder. He helped out there after our struggle trying to replace Scholes and he has sort of stayed there. But he is actually a far more attacking player.

So if he was allowed to venture forward, trust me when I say he would do. He is being asked to do the job he is doing.

Deeps

He does play further up the pitch when Carrick plays and is suppose to be the link up with the forwards. He does not have the technical ability to be effective when he comes up against better opposition. He takes too many touches and there is no elegance to his game. I do realize he is an academy product but don't believe he is the answer for us now or in the future and highly overrated.

I watched Janusaj yesterday for the first time believe it or not and was very impressed. Once this boy gets some more lean muscle on him, he can be a very special player. Even at 18 you can see he has the stuff and does it so elegantly. some of his one touch passes and forward play was brilliant. Finally he has a better footballing brain at 18 than Nani at 26 and you can't teach that.

To be honest, I have never been impressed with the likes of gibson and the rest who came and went and this is the first time in a very long time that I have seen an academy player who genuinely got me excited.

Sydney

I realize you rate him and like him, even in an advance role his passing and technical ability is not good enough in my view.

He is effective against lesser opposition. Looking at Anderson yesterday, I am not surprised he gets picked before him as there are very few choice when it comes to midfielders. For a team that potentially will play 60 games this season, we are woefully short of quality midfielders.

Most of the top teams have 4 or 5 high quality midfield players and we have 2 now with Carrick and Fellaini. Look at Barca, Real, Chelsea, Spurs, Bayern, Dortmund, Arsenal, City.

If we had half their midfielders we could win most competitions domestic and in Europe. We have a great squad of players when it comes to defenders and strikers but short of 2 high quality midfielders.

"He does play further up the pitch when Carrick plays and is suppose to be the link up with the forwards"

Shahram, if that is what you expect Cleverley to be doing then no wonder you do not rate him. But that isn't his job. His job is to collect the ball from the defence and feed the ball to the wings or Rooney. It's Rooney's job to knit the midfield and attack. Cleverley is always a better player in a more advanced position. He is clearly being told to stay deep beside Carrick. Because neither are defensive midfielders I guess you need them both helping out the back four.

Sydney

He does go forward and Carrick always sits deeper than him. You will see Cleverly around the box a lot more than Carrick, who barely comes in past the halfway line when we are on the attack.

Your theory of him being better in an attacking midfield role is interesting as for me those are guys like hazard, Matta, Silva, Isco, ect etc and he is not even close to these guys in terms of ability to dribble, shoot, pass or ball skills.

Cleverley and Carrick hold in midfield Shahram. It's Rooney who pushes forward centrally. Carrick and Cleverley are situated either side of Rooney ten yards behind him. If Carrick has a burst forward Cleverley will cover, if Cleverley goes forward Carrick will cover. It's a holding partnership. Just like Fellaini & Carrick will be a holding partnership.

But the same applies cleverly isn't good enough to play further forward for a top team like United kags and Rooney are miles better.
clevs is a decent player but should be no more than a squad player for a top team

I have said in the past that Cleverley wouldn't be first choice for MU in an advanced position. That doesn't change the fact that he is currently playing out of position and has been playing out of position for a couple of years now. Anyone who knows anything about Cleverley and has followed his career would know that. He was a stop-gap to replace Scholes, but has stayed there longer than anticipated. For someone who has been playing out of position and only had a few weeks to adapt, I think he has done very well.

15 Sep 2013 11:49:53
There must be a few devastated people on here today after Ronaldo agreed a new deal! Still makes me laugh at all the people on here who thought he was coming "home" it was never going to happen!

On a brighter note it was great to see Januzaj getting on and doing what our established wingers couldn't! Really put them to shame yesterday! what was even more encouraging was Moyes saying he considered playing him from the start! This boy looks like he has what it takes to be one of the best I know its early days but how good was it to see a player like that for us, hopefully he gets a lot more time it was so refreshing and exciting to see someone like that on the ball for us!

15 Sep 2013 11:22:44
So guys, what do you think the chances of adnan playing on Tuesday are ( I think he is on the B list) and also featuring against city because well being honest he's better than young and Valencia! I think we should play him because he's ready, most teenagers when they make their debuts are just happy to be on the pitch, adnan wants the ball, wants to take his man on and has a wand of a left foot, maybe he was fergie's parting gift!

He's not on the b-list where ave u been asleep, he's playing in the under19's champions league same night same opposition.

Sounds like you fancy us for the title then

I think we seen a few faces get games yesterday due to it being against Palace and us having a bigger game this Tuesday. I wouldn't expect to see Januzaj or Anderson play at City or even make the bench.

Mick

I don't believe he is going out on loan and will play as you said in CL U19, which I am quite excited as it will give us a measure of our academy against European powers.

However from what I understand you can move players from the U 19 CL squad to the B list and then get them into the main CL Squad. Basically the squad that is currently announced for CL can be tweaked if needed.

Unbelievable. the kid plays 20 minutes and now he's better than Valencia and Young.
What a pathetic post!

15 Sep 2013 10:33:23
If David Moyes was watching yesterday, he must have been seething thinking "why couldn't I do that when I was at Everton?"

What's happening with your own academy anyway? Already banging the Barkley drum, he's not the future of UTD as some deluded people on here seem to think, he's the future of Everton and England for that matter! His price tag would be too steep for you anyway as £30m is your ceiling, Barkley's price tag would exceed £60m.

Ive been quick to slate Martinez but I think he's doing good things at our place, enjoying the new brand of football playing it on the deck.

Loving the Rooney headband, class act, class free kick, England's best!

Barkley £60m are you drunk or high or in fact both? He is worth £10m at best atm after a few decent games and will go up in value if his form stays this good. Nice to see you think Martinez is all of a sudden your saviour and will do amazing things, when all Everton fans were saying exactly the same about Moyes every year for the last 9 or 10.

So you're quick to slate your new manager, until he manages his first win, now you think he's OK? I think that says more about your level of support than it does anything else. What happens if he loses the next game, will you slate him again? Lol

Barkley looks a real talent. To be fair to the boy, if he wants to achieve success at the highest level he will need to leave Everton at some point, so don't be too disappointed when that happens.

Oh and thanks for taking points of Chelsea for us!

Kenwright would sell for way less than 60m

Mate, if Barkley turns out to be as good as he looks, he's going to move to a club that is competing. I'm not trying to rile you, just pointing out the reality of your situation. Well done on yesterday but 1 game does not define your season.

£60m?, £30m even, you are deluded, you are Everton not Chelsea, you battle for sixth not 1st, teams will not buy a player from you 'worth' £60m, stop associating yourself with us, well it's pretty cute actually because its the closest thing to being champions you'll ever be :-)

Thought I might get a bite!

George - How much did you value Felaini? and how much did you pay?
Did I mention Martinez as a saviour? No, and certainly not after one win at home, I just said I enjoy the new brand of football which I think is refreshing, time will tell on his part

Honeybadger - Your boring, Mourinho will pick the points up where as Moyes will only drop points along the way

DHK - Sorry Kenwright sold Fellaini to you for how much? Didn't sell you Baines though did he? What makes you think you'd get Barkley, insane IMO

AJH - Your comment is more sensible and one game can certainly not define our season, however I believe Martinez will build a team around Barkley much as the way Liverpool did around Gerrard, I don't expect him going anywhere in the next 10+ years

AJH, GAV

I have said this before and I am going to drum around in the near future. Wait till Ben Pearson gets on the scene. The lad will most certainly make it here. He can tackle like a monster, pass long and short as well as anyone in the reserves and dictates play from a deep lying position. I can see Powell and Pearson being the future of the United midfield. Barkley is good no doubt about it, but we have players coming through!

Deeps.

Deeps, great call. Ben Pearson was an U16's striker and I said he would make a great midfielder due to his close control, excellent technical ability and great footballing brain. Now he is a very tidy midfielder and I agree that he will make it at MU. I do not think MU would have let Daehli leave so easily if we never had Ben Pearson.

Syd

I think likewise. Daelhi was only let go because of talent we already have. I think Person would fit the bill perfectly for us, especially if we keep dithering about buying midfielders. To be honest I have faith in the lad.

Who do you think other than Pearson will make it at MU? I have to go for Wilson, Perreira and Lawrence.

Deeps.

Deeps, it's difficult to say for sure, but I expect Henriquez, Powell, Pearson, Daehli, Januzaj, Wilson & Perreira will all have good careers. I hope they are with us though.

Thanks for taking 3 points off chelski yesterday but before you get all giddy look at the match stats, chelsea should of been out of site by half time, on another day you would of been 0-3 down :)

Good shout Deeps, heard a lot about Pearson but only seen bits and pieces of him. Sounds like a talented all rounder and I look forward to seeing more of him in a year or 2.

15 Sep 2013 09:31:07
Ronaldo will sign a new Real contract to 13.45 at the Bernabau

Good! Now we can move on and stop moaning about him in every transfer window.