Manchester United Banter Archive December 16 2013

16 Dec 2013 21:42:14
So Villas-Boas was given the sack today for failing to meet Spurs expectations. While I feel that it is silly to jettison a manager a few months into a season, unless they are spiralling toward the wrong end of the table. It should tell you something about the standards expected by the best clubs in the league.

Spurs are, at a push, the 5th best club in the league, at least they were last season. They are 7th this year, so not really too far off where they should be, and last season under AVB was their best season points wise in the EPL. But Villas-Boas was sent packing because they team weren't playing well and because he spent a lot of money without immediate pay off.

Over at United we are two points below Spurs, and playing way below the standards expected of a top side. Now don't get me wrong, Moyes should have until the end of the season. But the sole difference between Moyes and Villas-Boas is that the latter is being punished for bring new players in, and not getting them to click. Simply put, Moyes is performing to a standard where at the 5th or 6th biggest team in the league, a sacking would be a real possibility (cue we are United, we are different, blah blah blah).

The win against Villa has glossed things over for another weeks, but we have played all of the 7 teams above us in the league. Our record is won 1, drawn 2, lost 4, 5 points from a possible 21. And worst of all, 4 of those games have been at Old Trafford.

Moyes has been making noises again about "nearly" signing a world class player for a record fee during the summer. These are the same noises that seem to permeate before every window. The fact of the matter is that we need actual quality signings and we need consistently good results. Moyes will have the chance to deliver on both counts during the second half of the season. But if he doesn't, then his head should roll. It's well and good beating Villa and Palace, but unless Moyes can produce a side capable of competing with the best, we need to show some ambition and bring in a proven winner during the summer.

It was AVB's second season in charge. He bought the players he wanted for a significant amount of cash, and got tottenham playing one of the most boring styles in the league. The fans were not happy with him, and his results sucked. He also got his team embarrased time after time, failing to change his tactics.

Now this is Moyes' first season. We failed to get the players he wanted and he is yet to be fully acclimated to the squad. Add to that the fact that we have a whole new coaching staff who are still relatively unfamiliar with the players and we couldn't expect a lot more ( certainly a top 6 position though ).

And even with all of our problems, we have yet to have embarrassing results, bar the 4-1 beating at the hands of an indomitable city.

We have also shown on a couple of occasions that Moyes still has some sort of tactical nous. The 4-1 win to Swansea, 4-2 to Leverkusen, the 1-0 to an in form Arsenal, 3-0 Villa and the thumping of Leverkusen away.

Now even though we failed to capitalise on these performances, we still showed enough capability to improve our form

16 Dec 2013 22:14:10
I get you don't like Moyes but the two situations don't compare.

Firstly Levy is a sack happy chairman, 9 managers on 12 years is a joke.

Secondly AVB wasn't in charge of buying, Baldini was, and there's indications it was his targets mot the managers. And Baldini bought poorly. I remember in the run up to summer posters on here shouting for Soldado, Eriksen and especially Lamela. So far none of them have looked Spurs class never mind United class.

Thirdly Moyes has had 5 months, hardly a chance. As you say see how he does over the next six months.

Danny the fact appears Levy would ideally love to be the manager, he has DOF Baldini who has had it implied against him people like Lamela was his signing and not AVBs.
AVB must have agreed to be a yes man essentially plus bear in mind Spurs did spend over 100m yet not one defender of import was brought in, I think?
Levy is impatient and wants a quick fix United are in for the long term, I know which I prefer personally

16 Dec 2013 22:18:41
Fourthly even if they did waste 100 million he was backed. Moyes didn't get that backing from our owners.

What daft analogy: so because spurs continue to make themselves look devoid of class by sacking a manager not even a quater way into a project then we UTD should go down the classless path of sacking because he's not got a average team at the top of prem! Now I no fergie had them battling at the top but the guy was the greatest and any manager would struggle wiv this squad? just like at spurs moysey Is more in tuned wiv what the squad/team needs t get it firing and that will take time.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

I say, give Moyes chance, minimum requirement good running in the cups and a European slot, whether through cup or league. So long as we finish year strongly.

Let him get some players in. Let him move some players on. We've chosen him now, get behind him, get behind the club and support him.

Slate him for selections if you want, critisize his dilly-dallying last summer. But give the guy a chance!

It just shows the idiocy of shouting for loads of new players at one time.

Many on here were holding Spurs up as an example of how Utd should have been conducting themselves in the transfer market during the summer.

Ooooh, look at Spurs buying all these new players, Ooooooh Lamela. Why aren't we out buying hundreds of new players like Spurs? Spurs really mean business. They're making us look like a small club. Oooooh Levy is a god-like chairman.

Meanwhile back in the real world, not FM world, some of us realise how hard it is, and how long it takes, to assimilate 2 new players into a team in one go, never mind 6 or 7, mostly non-English speaking foreigners.

Hardly surprising really.

I hear what you're saying steviek, but I'd back a team of 11 brilliant players who have just met over a team of average players who play together regularly.

I am so glad we are not Spurs and god help us if we started going about our business like they do. Let's see where we are end of Jan.

Avb didn't buy the players mick1

Actually, and I posted this during the transfer window, Spurs have bought some very good young players and will be a force in 3 years or so. Sacking managers is part of the insta-gratification Football Manager mindset ( I suck at FM by the way). I have outlined what I believe our great team needs ( about 6 world class players) hopefully some of these can come from the youth ranks. You don't replace players nae legends like Scholes, Giggs, Rio, Evra, and ageing Carrick and Vidic overnight. So I've resigned myself to a couple of lean years still cheering us on and just hoping the Glazers will provide the necessary cash.

Andrew, I don't doubt that. But like I said in an earlier discussion with Red Man, football isn't an exact science. Footballers and managers are human beings, with flaws like the rest of us. Throwing money at loads of players does not give a guarantee of success.

I've always felt comfortable with the Utd way of going about things - evolution rather than revolution. I think it pays off in the long run.

AVB didn't get a say in any of the Spurs signings. He was employed to manage the players that were made available to him. AVB didn't waste £100m+, if it was wasted which is still up for debate, then it was wasted by Levy and Baldini.

StevieK, it doesn't guarantee success but with the exception of a small number of cases, you certainly need to spend loads of money if you are going to be successful.

And that's the nub of the problem; Utd haven't spent enough money on players in recent times and now its caught up with us which means we now have to spend enough to catch up with everyone else.

I agree that the Spurs approach of bringing in 7 players at once is not the way to go but I would suggest we need to bring in 2 or 3 top quality players each window for the next four transfer windows no matter what they cost.

Like it or not, this Utd squad has about 12 players leaving in the next two seasons either because they are not good enough to start with or because of age. Some will be replaced with young players coming through but the majority will need to be replaced with new signings.

I agree this is far from ideal but its where those running the club have landed us because of silly, short term thinking penny pinching.

Oh here we go, the manager had nothing to do with who they bought. Are you guys serious or just naive?

Offcourse he had a say, integrating that many players into a team is a difficult task that is why I don't expect us to change things in one go and ill take few windows.

Stevie

While I agree with your overall sentiment here, but I guess we are in no position to laugh on Spurs, considering our transfer period fiasco and our league position.

Yes, its hard to bed 7 players in at the same time, but it equally leaves you in a world of trouble, if you don't replace your worldies. Have we replaced Scholes, Giggs, Ronnie, Keane? I won't call buying Valencia after selling Ronnie some evolution. I won't call ignoring our midfield related plight for over 4 years as evolution.

I am not comfortable with the Spurs way yes, but I am equally uncomfortable with how United have handled things in the last few years. Its like on the opposite ends of the spectrum, but equally bad.

Deeps.

Thought you would be in hiding Sydney after the weekend.
You still standing by us beating Liverpool by a 20 point marging in the premiership?

Deeps

I agree, we should have replaced some of our aging/retired players starting 4 or 5 years ago and I suspect for financial reasons did not.

It eventually catches up to you, specially when players like nani, anderson, Young have not made the step up and you get a season like this one. I also think heargreaves was a big loss and if you add it up that is almost 90 million spend on 4 players who should be in their prime and backbone of the team, who are not good enough and fringe players.

Shahram

I think you make an excellent point with regards to Hargreaves. We missed him real bad. Just before the injury, he was churning out good performances in abundance. He looked the part. But as usual we never bothered to replace him.

I saw you in an earlier thread arguing Atletico's case and how strong it is at this point in time. Lol, I can only smile at people who disagreed with you. They will surprise a good few on here.

Deeps.

GCU

Totally agree mate.
I genuinely believe that what goes around, comes around.

In my opinion, and this only opinion of course, the Glazers made it clear to SAF that big bucks were not there to replace aging legends. that resulted in us accumulating some unworthy players and a few who are visibly too old or unreliable to be doing this anymore.

If the Glazers hadn't been so stingy, and made say, 1-2 solid signings every summer for the past few years, I honestly think we'd be flying right now. But they haven't, and now they realistically need to spend around £150million+ to fix the problems they refused to fix in the past. All in one go, I might add.

Hi Deeps,

I know it sounds nuts but I reckon if we had Hargreaves healthy, we would have won the CL final against Barca.

Athletico remind me of the old Chelsea team under Mourinho. Not flashy like Barca or Real but just tough as hell to break down and a talisman upfront who scores big goals. Their back four and midfield is so compact and solid. Watched them handle Real Madrid earlier in the year and they were by far the better team.

I have a feeling PSG will win it this year beating Real in the Final, funny enough they are playing each other in Doha during the winter break :)

16 Dec 2013 20:40:58
I hear we are planning on 3 signings and 60 million spend in january. 2 players potentially leaving.

I think Baines, Guarin & Konoplanka will be the three targets for January - all of which can play in the CL. In terms of leaving January it has to be Young and Anderson. Everyone else will stay until they can be replaced in summer.

Any clues as to who might these players be?

I reckon one of Gundogan or Rakitic, along with Moreno/ Rodriguez and Fernando, who will likely come at a minimal price. I just hope it's not Baines and Barkley.

I also see Young and Anderson as nailed on to leave if any side, and I mean any, will come forward.

16 Dec 2013 21:35:38
I'd like to see Ricardo Rodriguez, Fernando and Konoplyanka be the three to be honest. Then we could go for one of Gundogan or Pjanic in the summer along with a CB such as Mangala.

I really don't see what all the fuss with Konoplyanka is about. He's a good pacy player but there's a reason he's still in Ukraine at 24 years old imo. I'd much rather have Draxler or even give Lingard a shot.

shappy, what's your opinion on Fernando? I have watched him a dozen times or so, and he seems like a pretty complete midfielder. Impressive passing range, good technical ability, very hard working and protects the defense like few others, hence the nickname " octopus "

But while he does seem to have the required attributes to improve us, do you see him being a bit hit and upping his game to rival the Yayas of this league or is he going to be another Javi Garcia?

Won't be much change left out of £60million after Barkley signs new contract . maybe have to dig deeper into the Glazier kitty

16 Dec 2013 23:19:58
I rate Fernando highly, I think he is very under rated by most due to him playing in an unfashionable league and in an unfashionable role.

He would add bite and movement to our team without sacrificing technical ability.

{Ed003's Note - Can you hear the bells... maybe not I'll get my coat}

Left back from this side of the pond and 2 from the other side is what I understand. Let's see how accurate he is.

We always get the rumours, time to put our money down, though.

I will say though I don't expect anyone to come in, I think we'll wait til the summer.

If GCU is right, Baines is obviously the LB from this side of the pond. Wouldn't be surprised if the other two are both CM's, perhaps Guarin and Carvalho?

RED

I see you are in your usual cheerful mood :). Relax mate it is the festive season, enjoy the football and family. The club will still be there next year.

On a serious note, I had drinks with few people and one was a football agent and said that, he is no Mendez but does quite well and knows his way round.

Just being realistic, GCU - we rarely if ever do business in January. I wouldn't be surprised if we agree some pre-contracts or something, but won't see the players til the summer.

I never expected signings though in Jan, which is why I was so livid about our behaviour this summer. because it would probably mean us having to limp through the season with what we have.

Hopefully I'm wrong, 1-2 new faces in Jan could make the world of difference.

No Argument as I was furious with our summer too and kind of expected a struggle this year and got slagged for it. Personally, I think we will see 2 coming in.

16 Dec 2013 17:13:58
Transfer dealings are largely dictated by who leaves the door. Moyes seemingly wanted to give everyone a chance when he took over but he has made his mind up on who he needs to show the door to. I think anything up to 8 players could be leaving us shortly: Lindegaard, Buttner, Evra, Fabio, Ferdinand, Anderson, Nani, Young, Kagawa, Hernandez could all be heading for the door and I personally think Cleverly and even Valencia could go if the offer was acceptable.

That's around 11/12 players that could be seen as expendable. The question is, if most of them were to leave, how many do you think we would need to come in and replace them? I think Moyes would like to trim the squad a bit and focus on quality more than quantity - this will probably mean other promising youngsters will get the chance.

If it was me, and the players that I think will leave do so, we will need a new reserve keeper, two left backs, a centre back, up to 2 central midfielders, a winger and perhaps a striker over the next two windows. What do you guys think?

Unless one of Rooney or Van Persie leave, we don't really need a striker.

Over the next 2 windows, we need 1 or 2 central midfielders depending on whether Fellaini finds his feet and/or Cleverley steps up.

A left back is a must, but I'm not too sure we need a second one, especially if Blackett proves to be a decent back-up.

If Kagawa leaves, we need a attacking midfielder who can operate equally on the left and through the middle, with Lingard and Zaha pushing for a spot.

We might also need a right sided attacking midfielder if Januzaj does not progress as quickly as needed especially with Nani and Valencia proving to be very, very limited players for different reasons.

In a perfect world, I'd like us to sign Gundogan, Matic, Draxler, Coentrao and Di Maria. Those 5 would cost north of 120 million, which is a very reasonable price for proven top class players.

And we should be selling Young, Anderson, Buttner, Fabio, Chicharito and Kagawa for a bit over 50 million. i'd also like to see Vidic and Ferdinand phased out of the squad along with Carrick and Evra.

Although it's unlikely things would be so easy. We don't know for sure if Jones and Smalling are capable of stepping up and partnering Evans, nor do we know whether Valencia will flop or Rooney and/or Van Persie would need replacing for one reason or another, therefore it's very difficult to guess what happens over the next 2 years with so many variables.

Let's not forget we might fail to get any of the players we want and end up paying 40 million for Barkley, who might flop big time and make us look like fools again for spending a fortune on an overrated Everton player

{Ed004's Note - I agree with the incomings though I would keep Kagawa}

There is no chance in hell that we will let 10 or more players go in one or even two transfer windows we will get two in this jan and three or four maybe five out in the summer and then two or three in with some youth being promoted to the first team I hope we sign Blaise Matuidi on the cheap and get a deal in place for Baines this Jan and hope Oviedo has done enough for Everton to cash in on Baines then in the Summer ship out the players that are not cutting it and sign some exceptional talent

16 Dec 2013 18:52:44
Fresh, I hope its a max of 3 in four sold in Jan and then another 3 in and 4 sold in the summer. on top of the 8 sold rio, and Giggs will retire evra, macheda bebe all free's and those 5 will be replaced with the Keane twins, powell, varela, and Jessie
Sold 8 is tricky I think 5 for sure ando, young, buttner, chich, Nani. the other 3 I predict will be Rvp (if rooney signs) kagawa and vidic.
The six in is anybodys guess i'd like baines, koke, draxler/mata lewindoski herrera and Zouma only area that leaves us light in the squad is cover for left back (fabio)
If Lewindoski let's his contract expire I would give him a 20m signing on fee + top wages. its still great value

I largely agree Mick1 - Gundogan is definitely the dream. But instead of signing two reasonably priced wingers I would go for expensive Reus and reasonably cheap Konoplyanka. Coentrao I don't think is going to be the one, nor is Shaw. It's going to be a choice between Alex Sandro or Baines.

Agreed, outgoings are much easier to predict than incomings. There will be a lot of changes in the coming windows and there will be plenty of departures. At the very least Fabio, Buttner, Anderson, Young, Ferdinand & Evra will be gone by the end of summer.

16 Dec 2013 19:37:35
mick, I would not argue with any on your list with the exception of coentrao for me he is a poor defender even Jose didn't want him and he loves a Portuguese full back.
@ Ed004 I acknowledge kagawa is gifted but I think it is a case of wrong time wrong place a bit like veron. if he is not going to play every week in his best position we will never see the best of him
The departures are easier to identify most wishlists will have variences but despite the obvious ones I think a couple of 'star names' will also be sold.
Keeping a core of long serving winners carrick, valencia, rooney, evens rafael, fletch in the squad is key with our own youth coming through

Fresh, I would be astounded if Cleverley or Valencia was sold. Why would a club struggling in the midfield area for quality and quantity get rid of a young, homegrown, versatile player? Why would the club sell a player who can play RB, RW and sacked his agent as he decided he didn't need one? I don't see Cleverley or Valencia leaving. Young, Nani, Fabio, Ferdinand, Anderson & Evra certainly. Kagawa & Hernandez if the right offers come in and Lindegaard if he wants to leave like the former two, but Cleverley and Valencia will not be going. For me there will be six certainly going, a couple possibles.

Syd, I agree. Down the line though they could be up for sale when we improve the squad because they will be squeezed out. And I agree with Ken in that Kagawa is the right player at the wrong time - as soon as Rooney signs the extension then that's it for Kagawa as he will be resigned to the left which simply is not his position.

In January I think we could really do with Baines or Alex Sandro to bed in while Evra is still here. Konoplyanka is the best wide man out there for a January move. So two of those three for definite and hopefully we see Guarin come in to top up the squad.

16 Dec 2013 22:30:34
Whilst I agree on most of the outs I don't see us ditching 8-10 in two windows, and signing 6 foreign lads and trying to integrate them all at once. Look what happened to Spuds when they tried that this season. I think its a case of 6 out and 4 better quality in and use the youth to fill the gaps.

Fresh! Baines needs time to bed in? Maybe because his toe ain't fixed yet? Tell the England Manager that . Any other jokes

16 Dec 2013 16:11:47
A good draw for us. we should go through

Arsenal will go out
Chelsea for me is 50/50 Manchini will love that one
Barca for me will batter Man City. I note someone feels that Barca are on the wain. please check the stats they are improving in almost every aspect measured.
R Madrid will go through but I fancy Milan to use all their experience and beat A Madrid

Psg and Dortmond will go through

Thats my prediction

Just a quick note to all those who think Daniel Levy is a mastermind and so much better than the personelle we have at Man United. He does not look like such a mastermind now and if anybody can give me stats on what Tott have won since he took power i'd be glad to read them. yet again its a case of grass is greener on otherside of the fence for some of the more short sighted posters on here. I for one would never want Levy running our club yes he knows how to get the best price for his players but his track record is poor given the amount of money that has run through his fingers and he obviously can't pick a decent manager.

None of us believe that Levy is a mastermind. But what he is good at is getting value when selling his players - he's unrivalled in that respect.

For me, I think the last 8 will be:

Man Utd, Bayern Munich, Chelsea, Barcelona, Real Madrid, PSG, Dortmund & AC Milan.

Galatassary, Atletico and City all have a chance, but I think the bigger teams will play well and get through - but it will be close.

I'd say Atletico is a bigger team than Milan at the moment.

16 Dec 2013 17:50:11
@ mumbai boy
athletico may have a better team just now but they don't come close to milan in terms of history tradition and success. so in no way are athletico bigger than milan. that would be like saying city are bigger than united, right now they may be a better team but they will never be bigger than United
Experience counts for a lot in these games and despite form some clubs can overcome a lack of talent with a large degree of knowhow and milan come into that category IMO

Obviously you guys have not watched AM much. They are a beast of a team and probably the hardest team around to score against. They will go through pretty easily. I think City has a real chance of sending Barca out and Arsenal will give Munich two very tough games and will Olympiakos against us. Posted a few days ago that I wanted to avoid them and would have preferred Milan or Schalke.

I think city will beat barca. And Dhahran is totally right, Athletic Madrid are a fantastic team and I am pretty sure they will beat ac milan.

Dhahran LOL. I think PSG has a chance to win it all.

Ken mate I have clearly used the words "at the moment".

16 Dec 2013 11:29:23
Olympiacos is a good draw, When we could have got AC Milan, Galatasaray, Schalke or Zenit, one of the best we could have hoped for in my opinion.

Interesting Draws all around.
Arsenal vs Bayern
Zenit vs Dortmund
Gala vs Chelsea
City vs Barcelona will be an interesting one.

Great to see Fletcher back yesterday, Hope he can regain his best form and Help our current position. Starting with Stoke in Mid-Week.

16 Dec 2013 09:21:06
Great passion y'day and I believe the players are happy with Moyes and want to play for him and the new backroom staff. I thought everyone was good with the exception of Evra. He has been a great player for us but I am afraid its time for him to go. So. A LB is a defo in Jan. I hope Nani, anderson, and Young go to raise funds and lower the wage bill. can't believe young got on the pitch yesterday. I also think we should sell kagawa. Its too physical for him in this league. I know he hasn't played in his favoured position much but I would use him as a bargaining tool to bring a world class midfielder in. The next comment might upset some but I think we should consider selling RVP. I don't think he is happy and I think we should go all out to get Lewandowski. With rooney behind him he will be a beast. Jones was also brilliant at CB. He should start every game from now on in thst position, even before vidic. With a new LB, winger and at least one CM I think we will get top 4 and hopefully push Liverpool down to fifth. Add another CM and CB in tne summer and bring the loanees bavk. We will be back i!

I'm thinking that Alex Sandro, Mangala and Sneijder will be of interest. In terms of a central midfielder, I wish we could go back, swallow our pride, and get Pogba back.

Totally agree with your post, I think Van Persie's injuries have come back & unfortunately he'll never be the same which is a shame as when he is fully fit he is top draw.We should offer Dortmund 50 million plus Kagawa for Gundogan& Reus.Luke Shaw should be brought in for Evra.Mangala or Zouma for Rio.Anderson, Young & Chicharito should be sold to bring in some funds along with either Nani or Valencia.Blackpool red

Captain Marvel 7, best post I have seen for a while chap! Accurate on everything there

Would like Shaw (£20 mil minimum?) or Alex Sandro (£15 mil?) to replace Evra. Plus point for Shaw, is that he's English and would like to see even more of that in our team even with all the current ones

Could honestly see us getting Gundogan (£25 mil minimum?) and Draxler (£25 mil minimum again?) for real class at Cm and Lw. We've all seen how good the German national team is so why not steal these players before they're number 1 choices for them and their transfer fee grows even more

Van Persie was a 1 season wonder, but that's it. Lewo is a younger version of him basically so why not! Probably have to try for him in january because he's already said he wants to go to bayern when his contracts up

Moyes is going to have to work hard on these and meet the players because with all the bad press he's getting, the players might begin to believe it without having met him

16 Dec 2013 00:05:25
Much, much better today. Rafael looked like he was nearing his best and his partnership with Valencia was rekindled. That partnership will be important for the remained of our season, it was good last year and we need them again. Great to see Fletcher back and also to see Cleverly on the score sheet. Whilst we shouldn't be measuring our standard on a 3-0 defeat of Villa, it is encouraging. Greater tests will follow.

I think we have a strong nucleus to the squad, but we need to strengthen this. Welbeck & Cleverly will be going no where, we aren't going to get rid of a couple of English internationals. Januzaj was very good again and seems to have made the left hand side his own for now. Rooney very good again. Between Rooney, Januzaj and potentially a new left hand sided midfielder, I can't see where Kagawa fits in unfortunately as I have said before.

Enough of my ramblings, bed time! Looking forward to the CL Draw tomorrow - a struggling Manchester United vs a struggling Milan is my bet.