Manchester United Banter Archive May 16 2014

16 May 2014 22:46:53
So we've had Giggs as manager straight away with class of 92 alongside.
Giggs as heir to the throne to step in in three years with the lads alongside.
On here we've had talk of Rene coming back
Van Der Sar as new Goalkeeping coach
Ronaldo to make dream return .

The Fergie era was incredible but it's over and not coming back
Maybe it's time to move on and let LVG pick his staff and his players and let him get on with it his way

Its hard not to be sentimental at a club like ours, but I agree, mate.

Its time for a new era, and that new era shouldn't automatically consist of our former players running the rig with little experience.

We need to drop this nonsense, and move with the times - hopefully Giggs gets a place with LVG (if he comes), and the rest get a place with the youth but if LVG wants his own men in place, we CANNOT throw this away by telling him no.

16 May 2014 22:00:50
With Van Gaal's appointment looking imminent, I'm really interested to see what he does.

Firstly, I can't wait to see what his style of football looks like at Old Trafford. I guess Holland at the world cup will be the first indicator. Is there any one else in the premier league who plays in a similar way?

Secondly transfers. He's a big name who hopefully can attract some great players and I don't think he'll put up with second rate crap or the club messing around with derisory offers. I'm a bit concerned about suggestions of Robben at 30 years old but maybe we need a few players like that who are ready to go in order to get our groove back straightaway.

Youth. Very excited to potentially see some more of our youth players breaking into the first team and I'm delighted that he's a manager who like to give youth a chance.

Clearing out the deadwood. I love that he won't be sentimantal and will have no hesitation in selling big name players if he think's its the right thing for the team.

Player improvement - I think there are a number of young players in our squad who looked full of promise several years ago but haven't kicked on. Jones, Smalling, Evans, Anderson and Cleverley are probably the prime candidates. van Gaals system may help them plus his coaching might improve them. I think Cleverley might be the biggest beneficiary. In his first season he looked like he might be something. Quick feet, lots of movement, committed in the challenge and good passing. perhaps playing in a midfield three will really help him and he might finally kick on like Hernderson has at liverpool. Special mention for wellbeck here as well who isn't the finished article but continues to improve season after season. I hope Van Gaal can sort out his finishing and decision making and we'll have a really top player.

Finally and perhaps the most interesting for me is whether he changes some players positions. Rooney is a prime candidate. I think his position indisipline will put Van Gaal off him as a striker but Van Gaal might see him as having the attributes of a decent midfielder. Moving the lampshade into central defence has been discussed on these pages as well. Perhaps he'll try and develop Valencia as a full back and maybe Carrick could be moved into central defence.

Overall, I think Van gaal is everything we need right now to have a clean sweep and sort out the mess which is our playing squad. Last season was awful but could be a blessing in disguise because it laid bare how much work needs doing on our squad now we no longer have the fergie factor.

LVG might not be perfect, and yes, we could see some turmoil, but after the Moyes fiasco we need WORLD CLASS this time around and he is the only fully available, keen man available.We cannot let this slip away, we need a proven winner in the hot seat to steady the ship for the next few years and he's the most qualified option we have.

Blimey Andrew, a well thought through considered post full of optimism, this might catch on! I agree with you but also with Red Sky that I think the will be huge turmoil, although I think that is what we need. As for a later post, I thnk Rooney will struggle and start to throw his toys around again

Thanks AJH, I also wouldn't be surprised if there was drama this summer over Rooney.

We all know he likes to be "the great I am" and I don't think Van Gaal will have any truck with it. As you say, I could also see some toys out the pram and I think Van Gaals reaction would just be to get rid.

16 May 2014 18:58:12
Hi all
in hoping the delay in lvg signing as nothing to do with class of 92, they are and always be club legends but there's no room for sentiment in football. Imo he's the best man fir the job and he has the drive and passion to rip us apart and start again, I personally will be happy to only think about qualifying for champs lge if you can see we are moving in right direction with a change in playing style that's the right style, attacking football, I can't wait for next season

16 May 2014 13:36:25
Ed02, you said PSG are in a difficult situation with UEFA and will need to sell to buy to help start balancing the books. This was in reference to a prospective deal for Pogba. What is the situation with Man City regarding the signings of Mangala and Fernando in relation to Financial Fair Play considering Mangala is one of the defenders Manchester United have looked at previously?

Thanks in advance.

{Ed002's Note - Similar. They are through the "just spending" period and need to start balancing the books. They have plenty of players that can be sold.}

16 May 2014 12:32:24
Ed's and anyone else, do any of you believe any of 'The Class of 92' deserve to be a part of van Gaal's backroom staff? If so, who and why? Not sure whether this has already been discussed or not so I thought I'd post anyway!

{Ed002's Note - No, it is just sentiment. Time for them to move on.}

16 May 2014 13:28:15
Van Gaal always retains an existing staff member so one will stay.

16 May 2014 13:36:40
I agree with Ed02. They have very little coaching experience. They need to pursue their managerial/coaching careers elsewhere and get experience before they can come back.

Perhaps one or two could be used a link between the manager and the squad or as a coach in the youth setup. No important roles imo.

16 May 2014 13:56:16
Fully agree with Ed02, Yes the guys are legends and will never be forgotten. But if we wanted some romance then why didn't we give the job straight to Giggs? We wasted 12months and nobody wants to risk another year. What if they do badly or worse than Moyes, its more difficult to sac them. Also nobody wants to see them as the bad guy(s). Either way they have no experience and have achieved nothing managerial wise. I would rather Moyes than 3 legends and phil. Like what style of football does Giggs play? Is he tactically competent? He needs to gain experience than come back in 7/10 years. And what happens if he has a terrible manager career? Do we still give him the job after 5-10 years?

Maybe the class of 92 could work with the youth squads gaining experience, I'd keep giggs and try n bring back Rene if I was van gaal

Only Giggs will be part of the coaching staff. Scholes & Butt will keep working with the youth players.

I'd keep them all there personally. It makes sense on so many levels to have people who love and know the club inside out. Other clubs have successfully integrated their former greats into the set-up. We need to
do the same.
At the end of the day, LVG is an ephemeral signing. Here will be signed to help lay foundations for a long term successor.

I don't think sentimentality comes into it when you have players' like Scholes and Giggs around. Just having them around to inspire the younger players' is invaluable and something money can't buy.

It is largely sentiment but Giggs could well be molded into our next manager. Scholes and Butt have been at this club for donkeys years and will help the youth a lot. Sounds like a good set up to me.

Giggs, Scholes and Butt should either all leave and become a management team at a League 1 or 2 club or be put in charge of the youth teams.

They have no management or coaching experience and should be no where near the first team.

If the next manager wants someone with knowledge of the club, bring back Rene.

I'd be more than happy to see them working with the youth team but think that they lack the experience to take up senior coaching positions.

If I'm honest I'm a little annoyed at the talk of Giggs being LVG's assistant and think it should be avoided if it would in anyway inhibit LVG's performance (which - given how managers almost always bring in their own am - seems probable). I love Giggs but right now he lacks the experience. The best move he could make right now is to leave the club and gain experience elsewhere. If he shows an aptitude to management (which I don't think he did during his 4 game spell as interim) then maybe he could be considered when the next manager leaves.

Redseven, SAF & Co beg to differ. Giggs will work under LvG for three seasons and replace him. Whether it works out is anyone's guess my friend, but that seems to be the plan.

SAF and co thought Moyes was a good appointment. How exactly did that one turn out again?

Redseven, I couldn't agree more.

16 May 2014 12:21:14
Eds/regulars

Alexis Sanchez apparently quoted as saying it would be a dream to play for Man United. Know of anyone we're interested in who's suggested the same, ie they want to play for us regardless whether in Champs League or not?

Bearing in mind we have big bucks to spend in the transfer market and have proven we can offer £300k a week wages a la Rooney I think some players will view us like Monaco previously, ie we've said we need to heavily invest in the squad hence lack of Champs League could well be just one season. Recognition of the fact we need several high profile buys also puts less pressure on the individuals coming in.

I still think Chelsea in particular had an edge over us in terms of buying power because they have the international cosmopolitan metropolis that is London to offer as home but FFP will hopefully clip their wings a little. City also have that problem and Arsenal inspite of seeming riches in the bank never seem to have the willingness to flex their relative financial muscle in terms of FFP.

I think if players are interested in playing in the Prem then we can offer a lot to a player. The Rooney wage saga I'll call it could actually do us some good in the longer term if it assists in attracting top names. If we can attract top names who want to play for the United shirt rather than just the United salary I'd be over the moon.

Sanchez is a fantastic player but I can't find these comments anywhere.

I seem to recall him talking about how it was his dream to play for us when he left Udinese. Not long after he chose Barcelona over us.

I don't think he did choose barca over us as we never officially but an offer in, had him scouted many times and to me would be a great addition and replacement for Rooney or Hernandez as he can play up top or behind a striker as well as either wing

Yes, I don't think we ended up bidding in the end, SAF backed out of doing so. If he is available and open to a move then why not? I'd hate to see him go to Arsenal or City.

Juventus seem to be the most interested in signing him. I'd love us to move for him though. There aren't many top class RW's around these days.

16 May 2014 00:12:00
Carrick never was, nor will he ever be, an average player. He is a top class midfielder whose job cannot be quantifiable. Which is why he will never be highly rated by the English fans.

Statistics don't tell the whole story i'm afraid. Carrick's tackling is, by all accounts, solid. He rarely loses possession, his passing is measured and effective, and his positioning is of the highest class.

Busquets aside, there is no midfielder in the world who can close space like Carrick. It borders on ridiculous at times. Watch a full match and keep an eye on Carrick. He slowly glides around the center when we're out of possession to close the space down. He is a nightmare for the likes of Toure since he shuts off all available forward passes through the middle.

This certain ability of his explains why he is always topping the charts in terms of interceptions made, and why so many players and managers rate him.

We have this misguided thought in the league that only blood and thunder will do. This why Gerrard and Lampard are nearly as highly rated as Scholes ( despite not being in the same league when it comes to class ). This is why Wayne Rooney is a " World Class " player. Who cares about the fact that he fails to see passes that Silva can, or does not have the touch of Mata, the positioning of Ozil or the skills of Suarez. Who cares about the fact that you see him drop deep simply because he does not have the quality to keep possession, much less make something happen, in packed areas of the field.

When Henderson advances, waiting for Suarez to make a run through the middle, he has to pass it sideways because Carrick has cut off the supply line. Toure cannot find Aguero for the same reason.

Carrick has had a mediocre season by all accounts. When he was partnered with Cleverley last season, consistently, he got used to him, and made the best out of what was given to him. He allowed Cleverley to do the running and concentrated on cutting off the passes, averaging over 3, 5 interceptions per game.

This season he just had too many midfield partners, not allowing him to get used to any of them. His passing seems to have taken a step back ( now mostly because of the fact Rooney is either dropping too far back, or moving too far forward to give him an option in advanced midfield ), but his defensive work has also been average.

This can be explained by the fact that he got injured. Injuries affect older players more than youngsters who have the enthusiasm and high work rate, not to mention athleticism to compensate. Older players have to rely more on positioning, but when their physical abilities are not at their best, it shows.

As you age, your reflexes are not what they are used to be. It takes more time for your body to react to certain situations. This is why you see younger goalkeepers ( De Gea, Ter Stegen, Neuer, Mignolet . ) pull off instinctive saves that older keepers can't dream of. Van Der Saar was much better at controlling his area rather than pulling acrobatic last ditch save

Central midfielders are the same, and even worse when their injuries make their training routine suffer. They have to work harder on reflexes to develop a certain " freshness " that belies their years. Now Carrick's reflexes have taken a step back, and add to that a certain heavy movement, both in terms of pace and reaction, so he is, more often than not, just a microsecond away from closing a space he would have closed easily in years past.

This season has been a horrible one for Carrick, but if he can stay away from injury, he could still have a big role to play with us.

On the other hand, Sydney mentioned the fact that Carrick takes too much time on the ball. Well, he does. From one point of view he gives us calmness, a stable presence in midfield, but sometimes attacks are ruined because of it.

Well, that's true. One of the reasons for that was mentioned earlier, nobody making runs from midfield giving him an extra option. You see Xavi always finding Iniesta/ Fabregas in an advanced midfield area because they are there. We have noone in these positions ( Mata is still new here ) and Rooney's positioning as a number 10 comes into question.

The other reason is simply because he does not have the creativity and the vision to execute s first time pass into an advanced area. But very, very few are. Only Xavi, Scholes and Pirlo are particularly eye catching in their first time passes. Not every player in world football can be faulted for not being on the same level of 3 of the best midfielders in their generation, never mind 3 of the finest dlp in history. Some youngsters now have shown adept at it, Veratti, Gundogan and Pjanic are the only ones I can think of who can execute a decent first time pass from a deep position ( Kroos has a far superior accuracy to those 3, but he is painfully pedestrian on the ball when played deep )

Gerrard has attempted first-time long passes, which is why Liverpool concede so many throw ins.

Carrick is so average and overrated its not right he would not make any other midfield in top 10.

Carrick is a good player, but he's not and never has been really top class in my opinion.
Everything he does is that bit too slow.
Not just his pace but also the time it takes him to get turned and play a pass is always too slow compared to a Xavi, Scholes etc and it always gives the opposition more time to close players down

We'll said Mick. People have very short memories and some of the nonsense posted about Carrick in recent days has been staggering. Cast your minds back to last year when people were saying he was player of the season (RVP aside). He's in the twilight now, he was never the quickest but that was never his strength. Slagging him off shows a distinct lack of respect and class for someone who has delivered ago and again over 8 years.

I think Carrick has been a very good player for us but we need to be ruthless and have no sentiment if we are to get the world class players in we need to be winning Champs League again not just the Prem.

Carricks time in any title winning first XI is up. That's not being disrespectful. It's just stating the obvious. A title winning side will have key players in the 25-29 bracket. Exceptions are made for real world class players such as Scholes, Xavi and Pirlo who can still command the midfield in later years but Carrick, good player though he is, is not at that level.

Mick I normally agree with the majority of your posts but you lost me with "Toure", Man City destroy us, Carrick is peripheral and they dominate the midfield!

Carrick had one good season, every year prior to that most fans have been calling for his head. This season was typical of how he has performed for us, we need somebody that is more penetrative with their passing how many key passes has he made this season? He gets praise because he has been with us for so long and other players compensate for his lack of movement.

How many times teams just glide through our midfield like it isn't even there, ridiculous how open we are and easy it is - Carrick is the first midfielder down on our team sheet and how poor has our midfield been this season?

I do tend to agree with the majority of your posts as they are based on knowledge, stats and are intelligent. Carrick is a good player but he is far to slow and his positioning will only help him so much.

His passing is good and keeping possession is always key. But even the amount of time it takes for him to get a pass away is frustrating to watch. He has been our best midfielder since Scholes left but in all fairness that wouldn't be very hard to accomplish with our midfielders.

He may well be able to read the game very well but when faced with opposition players he is easily beaten. I think England will miss some aspects of his game during the world cup but I think they will be better playing a youthful midfield to close players fast.

16 May 2014 15:33:20
Beast, I was giving a hypothetical example. A midfield 2 of Carrick and Cleverley will always struggle when facing the best midfield in the league. Toure and Fernandinho are a handful, add to that Nasri and Sila in there, and we have no chance. Absolutely none. And yes, we have had our midfield dominated but you cannot forget that we play with 2 midfielders, and many opposing teams play with 3 against us.

I agree a bit with Halesini there, Carrick should no longer be part of the first 11, but he is still our best central midfielder by a significant margin and I would keep him as a squad option.

Bilko, I said he does not have the quickness of thought of a word class player, which is why he is not one, but at his best he was one step below world class imo.

he was the best central midfielder in the league all things considered ( toure had a disappointing campaign despite being a significantly superior player )

Here is a link I found, hoping it goes through. It' Gary Neville analyzing the underrated nature of Carrick's defensive work. You can look it up on youtube if it doesn't

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDgAC2dQfqM

We miss energy pace power and tempo in the middle of the park . Carrick has been a very good player but if we are going to look to press teams, counter attack, up our tempo and move the ball quicker from front to back he may not be the right man for the job.
For me the main thing united have been missing over the last few year is real drive in the middle both with and with out the ball and a quick tempo of play in cm.
Imo its time for a change if we bought kroos would a kroos /carrick partnership work? i'm not so sure.
Carrick could and might play the deep cm role next year but imo would need someone like koke, verratti etc in there but if we really want to compete at the top I think its time for a change and a we should sign 2 cm for first 11 and carrick should only be a squad player not our best cm.

I also think that Carrick is hugely underrated.

A mate of mine who is a season ticket holder at spurs was gutted when we signed him. He said that having Carrick in the side was like playing at school when the teacher comes on for the last 10 minutes - he makes that big a difference.

I think he suffers because English fans like to see blood and thunder performances, like Keane, whereas Carrick is much more understated.

The team has been overrun in midfield because whilst most teams now play with three in the middle we persist with two.

I also think he is suffering because of the lack of quality/confidence is a regular partner. Would Keane or Scholes have been as effective if it weren't for the other?

Clearly Carrick is coming to the end of his career but it shouldn't really affect him as he was always a high intelligence player rather than a high energy player.

The bigger issue for me is that the whole team clearly took the opportunity to opt out this year after the massive influence of Ferguson was gone.