Manchester United Banter Archive December 17 2019

17 Dec 2019 19:28:29
Some things are so mind numbingly stupid you think they must be a joke, or a mistake, but the Serie A approach to dealing with racism stops to a new low. They’ve decided to use images of apes, that’s right, apes. I think this shows us just how deep rooted the issue is in Italy, there seems to be a complete lack of understanding of the issue. Unbelievable.

17 Dec 2019 20:02:56
Its quite sad hat these kind of things still exist.

17 Dec 2019 20:04:26
Id say even shappy couldn't find enough words to condemn this enough. 😂😂
Absolutely brain dead.

17 Dec 2019 20:34:05
Ken, I spent some time trying to work out how they thought this was a sensible idea and I got nowhere. Sadly it led me to the conclusion that this is embedded in Italian culture; they simply don’t get it.

Football is an island of intolerance but let’s not kid ourselves that the UK is a shining light. Imagine if a top footballer came out as gay? In cricket, rugby, athletics, hell most sports, it hardly gets a mention but in football, can you even start to imagine the abuse?

There is something Neanderthal about football, don’t know how we fix it but we need to.

17 Dec 2019 21:24:34
I'm at a loss to come up with some form of logic where they thought this was acceptable.

In the end the only thing I came up with is they knew it wasn't but didn't care.

It's like a sick joke, but they don't realise no one finds it funny.

Unfortunately football has a tribal nature to it, that almost encourages the singling out players, managers or fans. Which means anyone who comes from a minority, be that because of race, religion or sexuality will be targeted.

Until we as a society decided to put aside that tribalism then racism and homophobia will always have the environment to take hold.

{Ed033's Note - Make of it what you will, but apparently, the artist, Simone Fugazzotto said, "I only paint monkeys as a metaphor for human beings. We turn the concept back on the racists, as we are all monkeys originally. So I painted a Western monkey, an Asian monkey and a black monkey."

Quote from the Independent

17 Dec 2019 21:42:58
I kinda see what he trying to say, it's back at the racists that we all evolved from monkeys, be you white, black, asian or mixed of every ethnicity. Just don't think he got the bit where black players are been abused with monkey chants.

17 Dec 2019 22:15:57
Nobody evolved from a monkey. Period.

17 Dec 2019 22:17:01
Firstly, the guy clearly isn't a zoologist as they are clearly chimpanzees which are a one of the great apes and not monkeys.

However, I could understand an individual artist being naive or unaware of the connotations of using the images of monkeys/ apes in a anti-racism campaign for football if they weren't involved or interested in football.

But anyone who has been at a football ground where players have been abused with monkey chants would understand that putting pictures of monkeys on posters isn't going to remove that association but drive it and make it more prevalent.

However, this campaign must have passed through several people. Many people high up within the Italian FA must have seen this poster, approved this poster, sanctioned it and distributed it.

And not one of them at any point said "Hold up, do you think this could be taken the wrong way, or might be ill-advised".

17 Dec 2019 22:39:19
This is how certain "artists" give art a bad name. There needs to basic respect and sensitivity about this issue. Art does not have free reign to ignore the sensitivities of people who are being abused. If I was one of those players who had suffered racism I would be outraged by this so called piece of art. Why on earth did the authorities who commissioned this not ask the players themselves what they thought of the artist's concept. Then all this fuss would have been avoided.

18 Dec 2019 08:59:16
AJH, let's not start knocking the Neanderthals.

18 Dec 2019 10:30:15
I read about this yesterday- the artist is bang on - we are evolved from apes and essentially the same.

Shame society isn’t evolved enough for this to be an issue but it is and strikes me it was a deliberate choice to provoke a reaction like a petulant child that is Italian FA.

18 Dec 2019 14:33:34
salford don't think the artist is in the wrong here, checking his website and insta account, he seems to draw only monkeys. The geniuses at italian fa should on the other hand have literal feces thrown on them, that should teach them a lesson or two.

17 Dec 2019 15:07:28
Good afternoon ed001
What's your opinion on the situation with pogba.
Do you think he is injured or stalling his recovery? And will try to get his move in jan?
Or do you believe he is doing all he can to be back fit and playing asap.
Obviously there is rumour and counter rumour so its hard to know what's true.

{Ed001's Note - when you have a player worth his kind of money and being paid his wages who you want rid of, you get them in the team as much as possible. That is the only way to ensure you get the value when you sell.}

17 Dec 2019 15:57:51
I agree. That's why i was wondering if he is stalling his recovery. Is he genuinely that unhappy? I find it hard to believe.

{Ed001's Note - as far as I can find out he just wants to move but is not particularly unhappy, just doesn't see a future at Man Utd.}

17 Dec 2019 16:53:43
That makes sense to be honest. I wonder where he will end up.

17 Dec 2019 17:02:48
Given Zidane is still in a job at the end of the season i believe he's Madrid bound. I do reckon we'll get a player from them in exchange, the question is who. I'd take Isco in a heartbeat personally.

17 Dec 2019 17:06:40
I don’t know Ken. Real’s interest seems to depend on us taking their unwanted players, and I can’t see that as a good option. Juve won’t have the funds either, so we better hope that PSG make a move. Otherwise it will be another 5 months of this nonsense.

17 Dec 2019 17:53:06
Yeah its hard to know Danny. This MIA stint is affecting his vaults somewhat is imagine.
I think madrid will go for him he has the advantage of not being cl cup tied.
If not keep his head down until the summer try to displace fred and play out the season. I just foresee more unnecessary dramas.

17 Dec 2019 18:07:03
Or he has been Injured and unwell?

17 Dec 2019 18:41:48
That's why i asked jred. Its hard to know what to believe.
I find it hard to believe he has not been injured.
But is he trying his best to be back asap?
Posts himself playing basketball then
2 hours after ole says he is sick he is posted on instagram dancing at his brothers wedding the night before.

Looking at it it looks to me like he is trying to pi## everyone at the club off including the fans so he can get the move he desperately wants.
I hope he gets a move in jan as i think its a win for all parties. Top talent and im sure he will thrive wherever he goes.

17 Dec 2019 19:40:23
As coincidences go, it’s a pretty big one. The sooner he is gone the better. He may or may not be quality, but I think if he wants to leave, and everyone knows he wants to leave, then he’s out of the team for me.

17 Dec 2019 20:11:56
It stinks the way things happened with the timing of these posts. Its as if he is taunting the club. That's just the way i see it.

17 Dec 2019 21:00:01
Every time the club have said something about a delay to his come back he posts something that seems to contradict the club's statement.

He's either monumentally stupid, or intentional belligerent.

He either doesn't realise how it looks, or he does and is doing for that effect.

For me bridges have been burned. Let him go, I wish him luck in his future career. But it's time to get this guy gone.

17 Dec 2019 21:59:36
He has also missed games for france .
I think because its pogba everything is blown up .
Look at it the other way he doesn't look like he is trying to hide anything and the club, etc will be fully aware of the extent of his injury .
Maybe doesn't care how it looks because he has a clear conscience.

17 Dec 2019 23:58:10
Let him go fgs, and I do not wish him any luck. Just get lost Pogba.

18 Dec 2019 07:00:20
Dithering by the club in so many ways. It was an awful decision keeping Pogba last summer, now the club have a player who doesn’t seem to be straining to get back playing for it, who doesn’t seem to want to play for it. This is all down to the hopeless dithering decision makers at the club whose ego didn’t allow him to be sold plus make other decisions the club needed and need to make. Now they will likely get less money, all very avoidable. Get Pogba out ASAP and move on. Should have been done in summer.

18 Dec 2019 09:27:09
Jred, surely a man of such immense intelligence as yourself is not that naive?

I don't get why people still defend him and/ or want to keep him. Teenage hero worship can be the only reason.

He needs to be gone yesterday.

18 Dec 2019 12:32:56
Betty I honestly think he has been injured.

18 Dec 2019 14:23:28
There was confusion to start with whether he had an ankle or foot injury after the Southampton game on the 31st of August.

He was then deemed fit enough to play against Rochdale and Arsenal on the 25th and 30th of September.

He then had an ankle injury that required a cast until the 11th of November. When the cast was removed it was suggested he would be fit to play in the Sheffield United game on the 24th November.

He then posted a video of himself playing basketball in Miami on the 21st of November. Which suggested his ankle is fully healed.

Since then he has been unable to get match fit in what is over a month.

While now he won't play until January as he has been ill for a couple of days.

Then he posts a video of himself dancing at his brothers wedding, supposedly around the time he was "ill".

I have no doubt he has been injured for a decent amount of time. You don't get a cast if your not injured.

Yet his cast was removed 37 days a go, a week after the cast was removed he was playing Basketball in America.

In the middle of October (18th) he was rehabbing in Dubai, with his cast on.

If he was able to keep fit with his cast on, and able to play basketball a week after it was removed, then why 37 days after it was removed has he been unable to return to playing football?

You're not telling me he has been unable to get fit in that time?

Now he's "ill", something stinks about this whole injury situation and I wouldn't be stunned if he leaves in January.

18 Dec 2019 16:29:49
Shappy was he playing basket ball or shooting a couple of hoops?
He was Ill after the wedding, you will be telling me he was hung over next .
When the doctors physiotherapist declare him fit for selection he will be available .

17 Dec 2019 11:35:05
So, I openly admit that I have only watched 6 full games in which Haaland has played.

I appreciate that isn't a huge number of games to get the full picture of him, or his ability.

So I decided to watch all 24 of his goals he has scored this season to see if he scores goals in a different way to what I have seen in the UCL games.

He has scored 3 penalties, which is 1 more than the number of headers he has scored. Of the 2 headers he has scored, only one was challenged, while the other was a free header from a corner due to good movement.

His goals can be put really into one of two categories. Either a back post tap in, or he peels off the defender runs in behind. When he does that there is often very little physical contact if any at all, while when through on goal he appears to have a preference for shooting early before the keeper is set.

Of the 8 UCL goals that I saw he scored 2 penalties, 1 back post tap in, 1 unchallenged header, and 4 goals either running in behind or peeling off the shoulder.

None of those 8 goals required any element of physicality, he didn't have to hold anyone off, or out muscle anyone.

Of the 24 goals he has scored this season 1 header was challenged, and 2 twice did he have to shrug a defender off. The other 21 didn't require any sort of physical presence to score them.

He is very good and finding himself in space unchallenged which is why he scores so many goals.

He wouldn't be a bad signing, he is a good player with a lot of potential. But he isn't a different sort of striker to what we have. He isn't a back to goal striker who'll bring others into play. He has 3 assists all have been him slipping balls through to a team mate not holding a player off.

I think he could potentially be an excellent replacement for Martial, but he doesn't offer anything different stylistically to Martial. Just better movement and work rate.

He isn't the kind of striker you could bring off the bench to change things if it wasn't working with Martial for example.

I still think for his career a move to Dortmund would be best, almost guaranteed first choice at a top club with a history of nurturing young talent. However, if he was to come to us and be first choice ahead of Martial then he could also be a success. The issue for the club would be having 3 or 4 similar strikers and having a lack of options to mix it up tactically.

That said, Haaland does have the physicality to potentially learn to use his size to his and the teams advantage over time. But that would be years away if ever, lukaku has never really learnt to use his size effectively.

17 Dec 2019 12:17:54
Wow. i'm in complete disagreement martial and haaland could not be more different in their playing style. I've only seen him play 1 full game and the rest are cl highlights. Their movement is different. One of them has good dribbling skills. Martial scores no back post tap ins because he doesn't make those runs.
Completely different players that share none of the ssme characteristics.
Greenwood looks a better player to me on what I've seen.
Haaland would give us a completely different option to martial imo.

17 Dec 2019 12:20:24
he is also playing in a league which does not have a great standard of defenders,

its a low risk move and does the club prefer to move away from these over aged over priced players and continue to look at younger promising players that we can develop?


the fee wouldn't be massive and neither would wages.

17 Dec 2019 12:30:06
Another good option and bags of potential Shappy but a fair assessment.

He won’t slow Mason down and if anything it could drive them both on to do better.

Ole might not be the best coach but i think the club and he knows what we need and he will play the youth if he can’t get the targets he wants.

We used to have Tevez, Berba, Rooney, Ronaldo for 4 positions. We need those options again. Rashford, Martial, James, Mason, Sancho? Haaland? for 6 positions.

His signings have been good so far and it looks like the right players are being moved on.

Hopefully Eriksen to upgrade on Lingard (and Lingard as squad rotation is good) plus a player of Rice/ Zakaria’s nature for CDM and we will be we set imo. Madison in the summer would offer further options.

If Haaland is a few below £40m it would be criminal not to sign him.

My only caveat would be is we give RB Leipzig a clear run in return for Werner and first option on Haaland I’d be down for that. Think Werner would suit us more at this moment.

17 Dec 2019 12:52:07
Ken, Haaland is showing many of the characteristics we wanted Martial to develop.

While Martial is a better dribbler than Haaland, Haaland shows more intelligence with his movement.

The are similar in that they look for space and shy away from physical duels.

Martial's biggest flaw is he doesn't make those half chance runs. The ones you make knowing that you'll only get the ball 1 in every 10 runs. He doesn't score the simple goals.

Haaland does.

We have three strikers in our current squad, Rashford, Martial and Greenwood. None of them can get stuck in, and play with their back to goal. Back into a 18 stone defender, hold him off, receive the ball and lay it off to a team mate, thus taking the defender out of the game and giving a team mate a 1v1 chance against the keeper. That is what we ideally need. Someone who can offer us something totally different to what we have.

We have three mobile strikers, who use movement, a change of pace and space in behind to attack in order to score goals.

That is one of the reasons we struggle when there is no space in behind, we don't have a single striker who is comfortable playing with their back to goal.

Would Haaland offer us that option? No he wouldn't. He is a similar player to what we have, a player who uses movement to find a yard of space, who then shoots before a challenge can come in.

17 Dec 2019 12:56:24
Scored a lot of goals this season . Young lad and going for a reported 20 mil .
Some very sweeping statements about a young player?

{Ed002's Note - Harland will not be moving to England for £20M.}

17 Dec 2019 13:01:15
Haaland has incredible potential.
At 6ft 4, he can work on physically over powering defenders.

Shappy as you pointed, he has instincts to score goals which can be judged by the tap ins and utilizing space.

Hungry, improving player will definitely bring more to the team than Martial.

17 Dec 2019 13:10:10
Shappy an 18stone defender? Really where do you make this stuff up.
Please name me an 18st defender? You should write for the sun😂 make it short make it quick make it up😂
He is in no way simialar to greenwood or martial at all.

17 Dec 2019 13:13:31
20m your having a laugh jred? He will cosy more than that. He would definitely give us a different option to what we have at the club already.
Unless we plan to sell martial ( which will be difficult given the fact nobody wants him and he is on one of the best contracts in England) i would rather get a more experienced player in. I don't see the point in having 2 strikers of 18 and 19 plus martial who claims he is a striker.

17 Dec 2019 13:13:18
Is he thinking of Jan Molby?

17 Dec 2019 13:18:38
Ken really? How much do you think .
Any clauses etc in his contract.

{Ed002's Note - They have an asking price of euro 100M but I am sure a bid of euro 80M would be enough - a termination clause of a much lower figure exists for a specific purpose only.}

17 Dec 2019 13:19:26
Ken you would always rather get a more experienced big name in.

17 Dec 2019 13:43:06
Fair enough ken, 18 stone might have been a slight exaggeration.

Currently Haaland doesn't offer us anything drastically different to what we have, a striker who will play his best in a side that looks to attack with pace and in numbers.

He's potentially a great player. But he doesn't offer us a solution to our biggest issues currently.

Plus its probably not sensible to be spending huge sums of money on a young player when we have an excellent young player of our own who plays in the same position.

I might be wrong (I often am), but I believe the the lower termination clause in his contract is only applicable to other clubs within the Red Bull group (i. e RB Leipzig or New York Red Bulls) .

17 Dec 2019 13:48:01
Eh that's not true jred.
I don't think i even said big name.
You are in such a rush to disagree you can't even read properly. Maybe your granddaughter could translate for you or explain.

17 Dec 2019 13:50:10
Based on the amount of interest In him i'd say 50m plus jred.
How do you come to a figure of 20m? But i think the editor has made it clear to you.

17 Dec 2019 13:57:30
Even 50 mil intodays market is not outrageous.
So just any player over a certain age Ken. Cavaini?

17 Dec 2019 14:13:16
So Salzburg are looking foa around 80m euros, which currently equates to around 68m pounds sterling.

However, if the club really wants to sign him they best agree a deal early in the window. As once Brexit commences the value of the pound will drop significantly which means we could end up spending £100-150m to equate that to euros.

17 Dec 2019 14:21:52
Pretty sure that Ed002 said United trade in dollars rather than pounds.

{Ed002's Note - No, it is not like that.}

17 Dec 2019 15:01:29
It will only be traded in dollars if the comp is sold as its own by the glazers.

17 Dec 2019 15:09:03
Ken, on too form as always 😂😂.

17 Dec 2019 15:15:09
Shappy how fo you know the pound will drop once Brexit has been done? Even people in the City can't tell you what the pound is going to do from one day to another.
As for Haaland, he's a young kid like Greenwood, if we pay the money Ed002 has mentioned, then it's going to put a lot of pressure on him to perform.
My preference is for Martinez, he's slightly older, more experienced, but he's also a very tricky and physical attacker. He's excellent at playing on the last defender, and has the tricks and eye for goal that we need. He is going to be in the top 5 strikers in the world within the next 2 years.

17 Dec 2019 15:30:00
Definately a big gamble on a player who has had a good/ lucky/ fortunate 6 months in a generally regarded lower standard league. We had a similar player in staure and type in lukaku which didn't work out for both parties and he moved on so why return to the format?
The lad may well develope but if we are even dreaming of playing to a big CF we must get the basics right: learn to cross a football because to be honest we are crap at it. We also need to have astute AM to play balls in and at the moment that is a department we are lacking in. For me the midfield is the area we should chuck the money at in this window and probably summer also in order to get quality targets and as we are short of a back up striker try for a low cost short term option in comparison.

17 Dec 2019 15:59:45
How far is Shaw from 18 stone?

17 Dec 2019 16:07:41
AAA, the pound will drop when Brexit happens. The markets don't like uncertainty and there will be that by the bucket when Brexit happens. So the pound will drop. How quickly it bounces back will depend on how well and quickly Boris and his government negotiate new trade deal and the impact of those deals. Many speculators who happen to be backers of Boris Johnson have invested in a market crash in the UK in the wake of Brexit. So it wouldn't be surprising if we see the harshest most brutal exit from the EU, which at least in the short term will be very damaging to the UK. Why do you think Boris and the conservatives wanted a general election just before Brexit. To give them the longest possible time to ride it out before another election. If it goes seriously sideways early next year, we are stuck with the conservatives for at least another 5 years unless they choose to go to the polls.

As for football, Martinez looks a great young striker. Typical south American striker, low centre of gravity, plenty of fight and aggression, excellent shot with little back lift. He'll end up at Barcelona as Suarez's replacement.

Cookyman, It would be a big gamble at the prices being quoted. 60-70m on a lad who has never played in a top five European league and has only been in this sort of form for 6 months.
Hi
I think the lad will go on and be a success, but is the pressure what he needs right now? We have seen with players like Freddy Adu too much hype and choosing the wrong career path can lead to obscurity.

Maybe a chat with his fellow compatriot Martin Odegaard would be useful. He would know the dangers of moving to one of the top clubs in the world as a teenager and how that can effect your development. He moved to Real Madrid in 2015, its 4 years later and 3 loan moves before he looks like he might at last be back on track.

RB Leipzig or Dortmund is the move he should make, spend 3-4 years developing in Germany playing UCL football, honing his craft, playing every week for a top young manager, at a club known for developing player in an environment where his every move isn't photographed and his performances are over analysed by every pundit and journalist every single week. Then when he's 22/ 23 still young he will have his pick of some of the top clubs in the world, and he will be able to go there and be first choice and continue his development.

17 Dec 2019 16:34:26
Haaland is a good young player, I just don't think he is what we need right now. Just like Alban Lafont is one of the best up and coming young keepers. He would be a pointless signing with DDG and Henderson as the club along with Romero.

Haaland is a great young player, but he doesn't offer us much different to what we have.

What we need is an older player who knows how to get results against tough opponents. Cavani or Mandzukic are often spoken about and both could do a good job for a year or two while allowing Greenwood time and space to develop. Another option and possibly the best available would be Raul Jimenez from Wolves. He knows the league, so would need less time to settle which should be an important consideration in January. Tall, strong, uses his body well, makes chances for his team mates while also being a good finisher when given a chance. He would be a different option to what we have, is at a good age (28, turns 29 in May), and plays for a club where in theory at least it should be easier to get him mid season (comfortable mid to top half club, so no worries of relegation, while little chance of a top four finish so no need to hold on to him to climb the table) .

17 Dec 2019 17:57:38
That's the profile of player i'd like to see shappy. A bit of experience starting some games coming off the bench in others.
I don't see the point in having a 50m 24 yo martial an 80m? 19 year old in haaland and greenwood at 18.
If we are going to persist with martial and greenwood then an older player would compliment them better imo.

17 Dec 2019 18:26:26
Seriously shappy haaland and martial are similar because they both aren't physical enough, what next lingard and periera are stylistically similar because they both masquerade as footballers?

Also where on earth are there 18 stone cb's, actually why are there any 18 stone cb's? It would be easier for teams to get 18 stones to defend than getting a defender who is 18 stones to do that.

He isn't coming here folks. So don't get the debate much either.

17 Dec 2019 21:06:18
CSM, I have said they are similar for than just their lack of physical aggressiveness. They both look for balls in behind, they like to run off the shoulder of the last man. They don't score many headers, they are clinical when given a chance, both like to strike the ball early.

That's plenty of similarities. While the differences seem that Martial is a better dribbler, while Haaland movememt in and around the box is better. Oh and Martial is right footed while Haaland is left footed. However, both have a strong preference for their stronger foot.

18 Dec 2019 14:32:04
How does being clinical and not good in the air make them similar strikers? Also most footballers in the world like to shoot/ pass with their preferred foot does not make them similar. And martial definitely isn't run off the shoulder of the cb type of a striker, he drops back slightly to allow either james or rashford to make the run while he helps initiate the attack. Haaland in a similar situation would be in rashford's role rather than martial's. P.

18 Dec 2019 20:07:39
They are totally dissimilar imo. Totally different types of cf. Haaland would bring a different option.

17 Dec 2019 10:21:33
Pogba has been struck down ill yet attended his brothers wedding 🤔.

I thin Jan might be the perfect exit time for Pogba. We haven't missed him.