Manchester United Banter Archive March 17 2014

17 Mar 2014 22:49:36
Have we missed something by not having Powell and Lingard around the first team this year rather than on loan. I can see many an opportunity for them to be challenging for first team honours the same as Januzai has.

17 Mar 2014 22:04:38
What's everyones opinions on the rumours about the upset in the camp with Ferdinand and Giggs specifically falling out with Moyes? I think it's all Minnesota tbf

It wouldn't surprise me. Some of the faces of the players' yesterday spoke a thousand words. The picture of the day was definitely SAF, who looked like he was about to burst a blood vessel.

I think a lot may come out in the summer from players that will be leaving the club especially Evra and Ferdinand who have a lot to say at the best of times. I personally hope they keep their mouths shut as derogatory remarks about Moyes and the new regime will do no one any good.

17 Mar 2014 21:02:44
Hoping for an onslaught against Olympiakos on Wednesday, some redemption.

But . if we lose, then Moyes should go. I very much like him as a person, but he has not shown he can bring the best out of these players.

Bring Rene back as interim manager, then get a proven winner, such as Klopp, Simeone, or Conte.

A big name manager, followed by a big name player early could be the key to more big names to follow.

Klopp followed by Reus and Gundogan would do the treat.

I wonder what will happen if Moyes fluffs it midweek and we draw at West Ham United and lose to City all in the next week? If City beat us comprehensively then I do wonder if something might happen?

I think Rene would get the respect of the players, or even Phelan. Just till June.

I personally think if he was going to be sacked it would have happend already so someone comig in could have at least salvaged something from the season, feel sorry for him though, must be awful being out of your depth at a club you have no business being at. who could walk away from the Manchester United job though.

Sydney, I expect nothing to happen before we are mathematically out of the champions league.

Moyes has signed a 6 year contract, but I would not be surprised there is a clause in there somewhere that allow the glazers to sack him and protect their investment without paying his release value if he fails to meet certain criteria, UEFA competition being one of them.

Up to this point, we are mathematically still capable of reaching the champions league. I would suspect things to change after the city game. It would be interesting to say the least.

Moyes has already shown he is out of his depth and floundering. The result against Olympiakos is immaterial, Sexton won his last seven games, basically it should be all over for Moyes no matter what happens this next week. In fact two nil down against Olympiakos should still be recoverable, this isn't the great Barcelona with Maradona and an early goal would give us a chance but no matter what happens we know enough about the managers failings already and keep giving him yet another chance isn't going to change things in my opinion

Boys what's all this talk about moyes out I for one like him being utd boss. One more thing think that was one of the easiest games of the season. Lookin forward to next season

That is a good point mick. One way or another he is gone.

I said further down the page on another thread syd that the next 10 days determines when we flirt moyes, after yesterday losing on weds and next tues and I can't see any way back for him

I know the club are loyal but there a momentum gathering and as Syd says, the next 3 games could accelerate it further.

Has the ed not repeatedly said moyes will be given time to build the squad

I'm sure the plan is to give him a summer and another season, but I do wonder if MU will rethink things if he continues to struggle and there are even more arguments within the MU squad.

Sydney

I would see what happens when tickets go on sale and how the sponsors view the present debacle. Have we actually signed that Nike deal officially yet or have I missed it? There are a lot of pressures, how do the Glazers expect to deal with unhappy fans? Just ride roughshod over us all, because if crowds fall and sales are in doubt pressure rises

17 Mar 2014 20:19:51
I want to say something negative about the way our club is being run and managed right now, but, let's face it, I am really just repeating what has been said before. When SAF came to United his credentials were superb - he had challenged Rangers and Celtic and beaten back their duopoly. He ultimately raised a moribund club and put it on the top of the pile. Moyes had done no more than could be reasonably expected from team of Everton's stature. The only similarity between the two men is that they hailed from the same area. That's it.

The Glazers appear to have made a terrible mistake allowing Don Ferghione, our Godfather, to hand pick his successor. And looking at the scowl on his face on Sunday it was clear to me that he too knows he's blown it. I do not see how any manager of any business can recover from such an awful start.

Moyes has no credentials and he doesn't have the belief of the players - for me, he is over. If this week goes as badly as I am expecting I think he will be looking for a new job soon. People think he will get to Christmas, I don't think he should get till April.

17 Mar 2014 15:38:19
Who thinks we should put a bid in for Fabien Delph in the summer? I've always thought he was an excellent player from since he was at Leeds and he's really showing his quality now! He'd give us the box to box midfielder we've needed for ages and he would be great next to Fellaini! We should be able to get him for 10 million so would be worth the risk.

We are Manchester United, we should be aiming for better than Delph. Much better than Delph.

Fabien delph, dear me we would be scraping the barrel if we start bidding for players of this quality.

He's still a lot better than what we have currently!

Does a midfield pairing of Delph and Fellaini not excite you Syd? Haha.

I am surprised people talking like Delph is useless. He has been extremely good this season and is a good talent. He is certainly better than the midfielders Utd have. Or is everyone watching Utd in a parallel universe?

Delph would be a good buy, along with the likes of Benteke, Weiman, Bacuna. Villa have some good players. And none of them have egos like the current Utd crop do! Cheap, EPL experienced and young is what United need now. You can't tempt the big players without being in Europe.

No problem getting these players to come!

Well I wouldn't say he's "a lot" better than either Carrick or Fellaini, he isn't as good as either of these two players and he's not a youth player any longer. MU will be looking at the Gundogan's, Kroos', Carvalho's & Vidal's of this world, not Fabian Delph.

We need an English player in there that knows the league. I do like he's energy and workrate reminds me of ramires plus with better players around him he could flourish. I don't like the other replies who knows how any signing can turn out if bought he could excel but you would rather have a foreign midfield with no experience in the premier league that could equally flop gundogan and vidal could flop I think if you put delph in a united team he would give you everything week in week out.

Next someone will suggest Pienaar and Osman as our new wide men.

Beastie, oh behave, none of them are MU material. The best signing from Villa would be Lambert ;)

Syd you still seem to think that we can compete with the other major teams even without Europe but the sad fact is we can't. Look at Liverpool, they have buought good not excellent players and turned some into world class players! This in my opinion is a model we should follow!

Delph had a lot of potential when he first started at Leeds but being injured all the time destroyed that progress. Its starting to show again a little now he's getting more playing time but then again there is always a player who has a really good season and then a big team grabs them and they waste away.

Potential lasts a long time these days, I can still see people talking about Tom Cleverley and his potential when he is playing for Bradford City at 35 :).

Do you think that players like "Gundogan, Kroos', Carvalho & Vidal" will want to come without CL football next year?
Yes, you can chuck £200 000 a week at these players and tell them that maybe "next season you can give you CL football", but as Liverpool have found its hard to attract "star" players without European competition.
MUFC and there fans may well have to "tone down" there expectations for who they will look to sign in the summer and try to bounce back into the top 4 next season THEN and only then will they be able to have the quality players that are being bandied about at the minute.
And one last thing, can you HONESTLY see players like "Gundogan, Kroos, Carvalho & Vidal" wanting to come and play for a manager like Moyles?
I am not trying to be negative but take off the rose coloured spectacles and see things for what they are.
No CL. No one guiding the club. A team in transition with at LEAST 4 first team players going in the summer. A complete overhaul needed. Unless all the new players gel another season in transition next season. Moyles as the manager.
If YOU were a world class player (or even just a class player) would you want to come here next season to play for Utd?
vrcomp

I think players will understand that we can still be successful, Moyes probably won't be here long and we have the resources and the history. We will get much of who we want.

I can't believe this is being debated. Delph - Manchester United - please be serious. He can barely get in the Villa team. Benteke looks like a one season wonder as suspected and the others aren't very good at all, what does Weimann actually do?

Liverpool 4 years ago were signing players like Delph. If we start looking at this type of player whilst our rivals buy world class talent we will be heading further down the table.

Lads, behave yourselves :)

Delph is neat and tidy and I like him as a player - for Villa not United (no offense Villa fans).

17 Mar 2014 14:06:50
One thing is certain Moyes will not get anything like 100m to spend on players in June

17 Mar 2014 14:27:30
At least I had half a good day yesterday.My 10 year old who plays for the u 10's academy bagged 5 against Liverpool u 10's at Littleton road yesterday before going off to watch that dross.No pre madonnas no diving or play acting, just hungry kids.First team take note

I think we will spend close to £100m in the summer. That's if all of our targets are available to us.

I think we will spend more.

Well if Richard Keys is to be believed we have got Cavani for £80 million LOL.

""From what I've been told, Moyes' biggest problem is not tactics, but lacking necessary people skills."Can't lift anybody", "indecisive".""

A quote from Raphael Honigstein. Something I have been saying all season. How can a manager like Moyes, a manager that hasn't won anything inspire winners like MU players?

So I don't think it's all to do with the players we sign, we need the right manager to inspire the players.

Blackpool Red, Well done to your lad :) ill have to look out for the under 10's next time i'm on bobs field (littleton rd), I only live half a mile away. RD

How much has Moyes spent already? Close to 65? Spending money doesn't guarantee success when you have a manager that isn't qualified to run a club like United. I feel bad but Moyes should be fired at season end, I wouldn't trust him with that money.

Tactics are not his biggest problem?It's a pretty long and comprehensive list then.Also Kevin Sheedy has had a little dig and said Moyes never once looked at the youth team at Everton in seven years.Speaks volumes.Horrible game yesterday.No subs until seventy minutes, then Rio for Mata!Again, speaks volumes.It is blatantly obvious Moyes is out of his depth and should go.He Will not turn this around.A bad decision has been made and it is time for some decisions from the people who actually run this club we love, not ex managers, regarding who can manage the club in the manner in which it is accustomed.Everyone associated with the club deserves much better than the insipid drivel which is being dished out at the moment

Interesting comments from sheedy indeed, rarely seen us so ineffective, out thought and out fought, yes we have had injuries but we have had them before, and payers aren't at their best but why does it come from Moyes and his team.
Interestingly more pundits and people in general are starting to ask questions about Moyes.
Olympiacos do not travel to England well, so if we do not overturn the first leg things are bad, so how will everyone feel if we have equally bad results against them and City?

I would take sheedy's comment with a pinch of salt. If he didn't ever look at the youth for 7 years then I struggle to see how Roswell, Barkley etc ever made the Everton team.

Maybe but Sheedy was bang on about "hoofing the ball to Fellaini".In all fairness, Sheedy is highly regarded as a youth coach.My step brother is an Everton fan, sad I know, but he goes some of the youth games as he has a very sad existence and little hope of finding a compatible female and he rates Sheedy and reckons there are some good young players coming through.He was a bloody good player as well, one of the sweetest left feet ever and he always played a blinder against us, I can remember him scoring a few crackers against us actually.Anyway, the point is, Moyes and Sheedy worked together for a long time and he doesn't rate him as a manager and he raised a valid point about Moyes' plan B: hoof it to Wiggy who isn't worth passing to anyway.What we're getting is Moyes at his best, this is what he does and all he is capable of and he needs to go.

17 Mar 2014 13:41:07
Is it just me that thinks as soon as it is mathematically impossible to go down, that we leave Evra, Vidic, Rio, Valencia, Young, Giggs etc out of the first team squad totally and play Rooney, Mata, Januzaj etc sparingly and pray we finish outside the Europa places? It will be a disaster for us next season if we have to play in that competition, but to refuse would no doubt bring sanctions from Uefa. I'd rather have a normal ish preseason after the world cup and play some decent friendlies during the season. We could give some youngsters a chance for the last 5/6 games and let them get some first team PL action while leaving out players who won't be here next season. The other option is to use our squad players and U21's in the Europa, that I could accept.

If we have a busy summer window like we hope we will, we will need as much training ground time to settle the new players as possible, and having early summer qualifiers and then a ridiculous number of extra games in the season, will seriously affect our chances of getting top four again next season. It could set us back an extra season and for me it isn't a risk worth taking.

If you want Utd to finish lower down the table we should play all the players you listed.

No the reason for not playing them was that they won't be here next season so why bother? The reason for playing Rooney, Mata, Januzaj less is to finish further down the table. We should use a team of Amos, Varela, Keane, Smalling, Buttner, Cleverly, Petrucci,
Nani, Valencia, Wilson, Hernandez. give some youngsters a few games, keep Nani and Valencia in the shop window and finish outside Europa with some luck. Never going to happen but Europa is a huge mistake for us. Even Distin at Everton doesn't want to be in it, that tells you how sh*t it is.

17 Mar 2014 22:06:08
the Americans are desperate for us to qualify for the Europa league and go far in the competition- just look at all those extra home games that the poor season ticket holders will have to purchase a ticket for on a poxy Thursday night!

17 Mar 2014 12:07:03
A few days ago Mick was slated for suggesting that the defence needed to play a high line against Liverpool. He was told that their strikers would get in behind us if we tried to change our usual defensive game and push further up the pitch.

Cue Brendan Rodgers, "I just felt that the Manchester United centre-halves drop off so we could exploit the space in front of that with Raheem's speed." In other words, Rodgers adapted his team to exploit our weakness. We have become predictable in both attack and defence, and good managers are going to take full advantage of this.

But the responses to Mick tell us everything we need to know about our current mentality: we need to think about containing the opposition before we can think about how to win the game. Winning big games requires ballsy decisions, like playing a speedy winger in the hole to exploit the space. Moyes is a caution first manager and that leads to a predictable game plan that every good team will find a way to exploit. Now I'm not saying Mick should be our new manager. But he might be an improvement on Moyes.

Danny

Dear me they would have scored 10 had we played a higher line. What rogers is mentioning has been an ongoing issue for 3 or 4 years mate. too much of a gap between our lines all due a lack of pace in the middle of the park and the cb.

It creates issued both defending and attacking where we have too much of a gap between the forwards and the midfielders and always look disjointed.

We played the same way under fergie and the players are not suited to play a high line.

Moyes is a cautious manager who aims to not lose. A draw is fine to him because he hadn't lost.

Wow GCU, we get absolutely annihilated by a team that we finished nearly 30 points ahead of last season, and your response to the idea that we could have tried something different tactically to counter the specific weakness that the opposition manager targeted is, 'things would have been worse.' Are you suggesting that 3-0 to Liverpool is the very best we can do?

This is precisely the mentality that Moyes's tenure is cultivating. Our tactics against good teams are not working, and this is obvious to everyone who has eyes and a basic knowledge of the game. We sit deep, invite them on, allow them to take control of the game (hoping to nick a goal on the break), until they inevitably score and then, when we're already on the back foot, we try in vain to claw things back. But instead of entertaining the notion that we could try something different, people are so terrified that things could be worse that they say stick to a failing formula. Caution first, even when it isn't working.

If we had played a high line against Liverpool (and this was Mick's point) it would have meant that we started by taking the game to them instead of allowing them to dictate play for the first half an hour. Yes, we would have been susceptible to counter attacks, but there's a good chance we would have had more than one shot on target. Yesterday was a battle between two attacks, neither of our defences are particularly good but we have top attacking talents. The key difference was that we set out our stall to defend deep while Liverpool played to their strengths. But you're right GCU, we should be lauding Moyes for not losing 10 - 0 against a direct rival.

I think there are valid arguments for both tactics. We played deep and got murdered. Arsenal played higher, and got murdered. United's issue in my opinion is, irrespective of tactics, the players are just not performing. They don't seem to want to play for Moyes the way they did for SAF. They look like a bunch of strangers. They don't know what their individual jobs are, and they don't know what they are doing collectively. Tactics and formations aside, the players are underperforming and their confidence is shot. And the management team have not shown one glimpse that they know how to change the situation. The back four look lost and have no leadership whatsoever, even with Vidic on the pitch. Rooney, Mata and Januzal are much better players than they are showing, and RVP is roaming everywhere he can , other than where he should be, in search of the ball. No wonder he looks fed up. He is getting no service at all, nd is forced to drop deep or go out wide just to get the ball.
Bur the biggest issue of all is the longstanding problem of our midfield. Week in, week out, they are totally over run. Not just by good teams, but by MOST teams. This team on paper does not lack ability. What it does lack is desire, pride and pride.
Most of all it lacks confidence, and in football confidence is everything.
Players like Welbeck, Young , Cleverley are constantly criticised for not being United quality, a point that I actually agree with. But these players are not the cause of our problems. Our problems stem from the so called big players, the "stars" performing like Sunday morning pub players. They should be utterly embarrassed and ashamed by the way they are (not ) performing. Excuses have been made all season, and they have become boring. Yet again Moyes will take the brunt of it, at to a large extent deservedly so. But ultimately, once they step out onto the pitch, the buck stops with the players.
And those players have let the Club, the manager and the fans down terribly. They may say all the right things to the media, but they are still happy to walk away with their huge salaries, huge pay rises and new contracts (And I am not just pointing the finger at Wayne Rooney.) Its about time these overpaid, under performing prima donnas starting earning their wages and stood up to be counted.
To perform like they are and try to justify it is to completely devalue what it means to be a Manchester United player.

Bettyswollocks,

Good points mate. I don't know if anyone ever frequents other United forums, but while i'm not a member/poster, I do browse the feedback after our games now and again.

Today, there's been a lot of posts quoting sections from the better-known MUFC fanzines. Now, I know fanzines are just as (un)reliable as any other media outlet but they do have feelers around the club and training ground.

A common theme being reported recently, is that Moyes' training regimes have lost the players completely. Something about repeatedly telling our defenders that "Jagielka used to do ___" which prompted heated words exchanged between Moyes and Rio. Another, was that we spent several hours going over a defensive routine that saw Giggs storm off in frustration.

Again, take what you will from this and undoubtedly, some of this will be false but if the players and Moyes are at loggerheads in terms of our tactics or lack of, it would tie in with how clueless and lost we look whenever we face a major team.

17 Mar 2014 15:45:55
Cheers Danny. It is actually pretty simple, should we set up to counter their strengths, or to play for our own. It comes down to our attack vs theirs, or our defense versus their, and I know which one I would chose.

Shahram, I disagree about that. When I saw Vidic in the team, I knew we will get slaughtered. Vidic needs to play a deep line since Suarez, Sturridge and co are quicker than him and he does not have the positioning intelligence of Rio to counter that. When I mentioned we need to play a high line, Vidic would be nowhere near the starting 11. Evans, Smalling and Jones have lots of pace and are arguably faster than Suarez and Sturridge, who rely on quick feet and dribbling ability rather than pure pace. Our younger defenders have the pace to catch up with them, and even if we concede a couple of goals, we are likely to score some.

You say that our slow midfield is the reason why our defense play so deep. I disagree. By playing the defense deep, the midfield has to drop off to protect them, thus creating a gap between midfield and attack. We need to reduce that gap, and pushing the defense high would in turn allow our midfielders to push up a bit, making it easier to suffocate Liverpool's midfield and allow us to maintain possession in their half, where Mata, Rooney, Januzaj and Van Persie would have had a fair shot at creating something.

But the midfield dropped back to protect the defense, Mata, Januzaj, Rooney and Van Persie had to drop back in turn to get possession deep into our own half and try to make something happen. Well' its just not going to. Cleverley needed to come on at half time ( and it pains me to say it ) to counter their superior midfield and link up the attack to the defense ( Fellaini would have had that role ).

And when Arsenal played higher and got murdered, they had Wilshere who has yet to learn how to defend, and Arteta. We had a more defensively solid midfield in Fellaini and carrick ( even if they are just as slow ), a more destructive front line and pacier defenders. Mertesaker does not have the pace to get back and follow the likes of Suarez, something Jones, Evans and Smalling do.

But if Smalling and Evans are unavailable, ( there were rumors Smalling is injured and Evans is not yet fit ) than it's understandable we played deep to accommodate Vida. In that case, we really had to use a link man between midfield and attack, a defensively capable and yet able to carry the ball forward midfielder. Cleverley is the closest thing we have to that, and putting him on would have allowed Fellaini to get forward more, and Cleverley would have been the link man between Carrick, and an advancing Fellaini.

Managerial 101 imo. You play deep, you either set yourself up to counter with pacy wingers and midfielders, or you pack the midfield to break their tempo, allow us more possession, and link the midfield to the attack. You don't use 4 luxury players ( I don't care what you say about Rooney, but he is neither defensively sound with his tackling stats proving it, nor a link man between attack and midfield ).

We conceded through individual errors, fair enough, and he can't be blamed for it. But we were incapable of attacking, or keeping the ball in their half, or shutting down the midfield, which falls solely on Moyes' shoulders

Danny

Calm down and stop putting words in my mouth. It is a matter of different opinion and there seems to be many experts here after every loss or a win including myself:)

My view is we will look worse for it playing a high line and have defended deep for 3 or 4 years now. To play what you are advocating requires buying the right players for that kind of system.

Arsenal have by far a superior midfield and one of the best defensive records this year and got murdered when they played that way. When I say 10-0 it is a matter of speech. After a loss like yesterday it is easy to criticise things and make an argument for anything different. Failures are orphans as they say.


Mick

Maybe Smalling has the pace to stay with Suarez but none of our defenders can stay with sterling or Sturridge and none are positionally astute enough or smart enough. Read what Rooney said today and supposedly we had a plan coming out after halftime and he said the Jones penalty killed it. Not saying the plan would have worked btw LOL

If you were managing this lot you would think wtf when the guy who is supposedly our great hope for the future gives away a penalty within 20 seconds to one of the worst players on the pitch on a nothing play. It is hard to plan or manage for some of these things. Can you imagine Fergie's wrath with rafael and jones if he was managing things.

I am really surprised he has not publicly ripped some of the players because a lot of them are getting away with murder whilst the focus is on blaming the manager for all that is gone wrong.

Finally, I am not being disrespectful and hope you take it for what it is.You might call it managerial 101 but we defended deep last year, the year before and the year before that under the greatest manager that ever lived and he had the same defenders at his disposal.

Do you honestly believe this management team and the last one are all that stupid or inexperienced that they don't know or would not play a higher line if we could.

Shahram, last year Rooney played deeper, thus we had a midfield three most games. Now he is either playing too deep for a number 10, or too high. he has more freedom under Moyes and it's not giving the team any balance.

Last season we played a deep line. I do not disagree with it. We had Rio and Carrick playing out of their minds. We had Valencia and Nani on the right, with Young and occasionally Kagawa and Welbeck on the left. Kagawa aside, our lineup was suited to Fergie's trusted 4-4-1-1. Our team was set up to sit deep and counter at pace. Despite our winger's shortcomings, they offered a way out on the counter.

This season, Januzaj and Mata are our wingers. They are slower, less defensively sound than Valencia, Nani, Young and Welbeck. Thus when deployed deeper, they do not offer what our under performing wingers do.

Moyes tried to set the team to play like Ferguson. A deep lying defense, quick wingers and all. But the problem is Carrick and Rio are not performing the way they were. Evans, Smalling and Jones are not as suited for a deep lying defense, and Vidic is hardly an intelligent leader ( despite his leadership qualities, he does not read the game as well as Rio and fails to position his team mates the way F5 does ).

So all in all, deep lying defense with quick counter attacks worked very well for Ferguson, he had a leader in defense and a brilliant dlp. The leader in defense is showing his age, and the midfielder is nowhere near as good as he was last season. So the personnel is partly to blame, but there is also Moyes who does not have Fergie's knowledge of the team, and bought players not suited to the system he is playing.

Mata is at his best right in front of the attackers, creating chances for himself and for others in front of the opposition area. He lacks the pace and physical attributes to play in a deeper, counter attacking, defensively guided system, hence why Mourinho barely played him.

We lack the personnel to play such a system. We lack hazard and Willian's pace on the counter attack. Oscar's passing qualities and his defensive work. Ramires' ability to drive from midfield.

Our attack is suited for a possession based dominating system that camps in the opposition area. To play a deeper, more defensively oriented system, Mata and Van Persie have to be dropped. januzaj can still cut it, but he will struggle ( not as much as Mata since he has more pace, but he will struggle nonetheless).

So, all in all, in a defensively shaped, deep lying system, we would need pace on the counter, and brilliant defenders. So we have to drop Mata and van Persie, play Welbeck and Valencia, move Rooney deeper, and use RIo Ferdinand. We would get more results at this moment in time, I have no doubt about it, but this is not the way to go forward.

We have quick defenders, very quick, technically capable midfield in which every player is a solid passer, slow but technically brilliant attackers and good finishers. To lay to our strengths, we move the defenders higher, allowing our midfield to boss possession, play through the middle and allow our attacking midfielders time on the edge of the area.

Shahram, I respect your opinion and I believe you have some very good points. The system you are referring to is tried and tested, and Fergie made the most of it. But the players we have that suit the system are under performing, and the more promising/ capable players we have either bought or are developing ( Januzaj, Jones, Smalling, Evans?, Cleverley?, Mata and Kagawa ) are not suited to that said system, while less qualified players would work that system better ( Valencia, Nani, Young, Welbeck, Vidic, Ferdinand. ).

Again, I'm not doubting the system. Real Madrid under Mourinho played a quick counter attacking team with lots of pace, and scored the most goals in a single La Liga season and Bayern last season were brilliant at suffocating play and counter attacking at pace. But you still have teams like Barcelona, City, Bayern 2014 and even Chelsea last season that are more possession based and have slower, and just as destructive, attacks.

Atm, we have the players to play possession based football. Our best players are not suited to counter attacking, hence why none of the goals we scored this season in the league came from counter attacks, which is why playing a deeper defensive line does not suit us, and I don't think it will since we brought Mata and Fellaini both of whom do their better work closer to the opposition area.

We defended deep and got stuffed.
IMO if we had played a high line we would of got stuffed.
Liverpool have looked a better team than us all season and there attacking unit is the best in the league
I would of played a deep line with a cm in front of the back 4 a 4-1-4-1 and tried to close the space in the middle and would of been happy if we could pinch a 1:0.
Liverpool stuffed arsenal and IMO were outstanding when getting beat of city.
I don't think we are good enough to go toe to toe with them so IMO u need to contain them.
With the back 4 we had and a cm of Carrick, fellaini we where always going to struggle .a high line with them 6 players and no pace would always struggle against the Liverpool attack.

Evra, vidic look about finished
Jones has played a handful of games at cb, was poor in our last match as well and really needs a run of games .
Raf is great attacking but is a liability in defence at times when under pressure.
Fellaini/Carrick is an awful pairing IMO no pace at all.
But that's where we are at the moment, if Liverpool played well which they did they were always going to beat us .

Up top on paper we look ok but Mata and co will struggle if can defend or control possession in our own half.

GCU, the problem is that this wasn't just a one-off in which we dropped deep and stayed compact to combat Liverpool. Regardless of the opposition, if it's a big game the plan remains the same: allow the opposition to dictate the play, soak up the pressure and try to nick a goal. This has been the tried a trusted Moyes default strategy for a decade at Everton, and it has been wholeheartedly transplanted to United. It doesn't matter what the formation is or who the personnel are, the plan is always the same against all but the poorest of opponents.

Yesterday, when he knew Smalling was injured and Vidic would play, he needed to alter the strategy and find some other way to take control of the game. He didn't because sit back and contain is his preferred strategy, regardless of who plays.

Has there been a single game this year when we have played a good team and we have dictated the play? Even in the Arsenal win, we didn't dominate. Everyone can see that we set ourselves up like an away team hoping for a draw, and teams like Liverpool just love that.

SAF was trying to move away from deep sitting defenders, in his book he talks about signing Smalling and Jones to help do this, and we know that he was looking at Garay to bring in an experienced defender who can push on too. Moyes, in contrast, rejected the chance to sign Garay in the last two windows and failed to secure any alternative. Despite all our defenders being injury prone and out of form, he did what he does best and dithered, hoping that something will fall into place in the summer.

Nobody is excusing the players, who have been awful all year. But the manager must take responsibility for the team's form over the season, and Moyes could not possibly be performing worse in every aspect of his job. Nobody thinks that Moyes and his coaching staff don't know what a high line is: they just refuse to entertain the notion of attempting to play it.

Can't defend or control possession.

Mick

I agree with your Rooney view and have been watching this specifically for a few weeks and something needs to change.

Danny, last season we had so many games where we hung on by the skin of our teeth and even mid table teams put us under pressure for long spells.

I fully understand your point and in order to get the best out of our lot upfront we need to push upfield and support them with midfielders and wingers and generally numbers in the opposition box. If you are advocating that if we play mata and janusaj we need to play a higher line or play deeper and play with our wingers, I guess that would be an interesting choice.

I will a minority and say we should have played deeper, played a midfield 5 with a lone striker and would do the same against city in a couple of weeks. People might see that as negative but I see it as being smart.

In a perfect world I completely agree with you but that system needs team speed and mobility. It needs CMid's who are very mobile and complete players i.e can pass and control possession and tempo but also have pace to cover in cases where you lose possession. You can get away with a slower CD if your mids are extremely hard working and dominant. It also need defenders who are good ball players and comfortable on the ball.

We have none of the above requirements, our midfielders with the exception of carrick are average passers and never going to control possession or distribution. Carrick is too slow now unfortunately. CD are naive and quite poor passers and still wet behind the ears IMO and would get murdered.

Watch Jones and Smalling the minute someone pressures them they hoof it upfield and I would be worried if we were depending on their passing in a high line.

If you can try and watch the Liverpool/ Villa game at Anfield in case you missed it. It is the perfect way to play them granted they have speedier front men.

Danny

The plan has been the same for a few years the difference is we are not winning anymore playing that way. New management is definitely at fault for some of our misfortune but the players are equally at fault and not for the lack of trying but lack of ability in some cases and in many it is an age thing.

17 Mar 2014 10:20:56
I'd like to congratulate Liverpool on a deserved win. I thought the first half was very close. The second penalty killed us though we played some good football in the 15 mins after it.

Vidic was never a sending off but we were lucky to still have Rafael on. This constant trying to get players sent off or booked is abhorrent to me and detrimental to the game. I hope all you scousers condemn it in the same way we condemned Ashley Young earlier in the season.

As a Liverpool fan I would like to say I totally agree with you. Any player who contrives to get another player booked or sent off is an ar**hole. Thought suarez stayed on his feet a lot more than usual yesterday. Hope that continues. We could, and should of had 2 more penalties and you should have had 1 when Johnson handled. It's time to rebuild and it does take time. Hard to accept but we have been through it although we didn't have any money to do it quicker. Mis-management by us over the years is a lesson that you
should learn from otherwise it could be a long time before you compete at the
top again.

Please don't class all scousers as Liverpool fans, Liverpool fans are from Norway & Denmark.

Sturridge second was a pen. Seemed to me the ref realised his error on the 3rd pen by the players reactions and decided not to give another. I was slightly disappointed in Vidic for not showing Joe Hart style passion but he did appear to request an off field chat about it with DS.

Disappointing all round yesterday but we just have to take it on the chin and say the team that deserved the win got it.

17 Mar 2014 09:47:02
First post but a reader of this site for quite a while.

There are a thousand reasons why replacing fergie was going to be a huge task for anyone. Especially for a manager who couldn't walk into that changing room and command instant respect. Without a question Moyes could not do that. If you are good enough then in time you can still earn that respect though. I don't think Moyes has.

The two home games last year against Everton and Newcastle were the turning point for me. I was watching the games thinking 'what on earth have you lot been working on on the training ground this week'. There was no cohesive plan. It was like watching three sets of players, the defense, the midfield and the attckers playing together for the first time ever. There has never been a pattern of play. To take a champion group of players that have played together for such a long time and turn them into such a disjointed bunch lacking confidence actually takes some doing.

Just one observation of many I could and that have been made. There was a period early on yesterday where rooney and rvp were working their backsides off to close down liverpool at the back. A couple of midifelders helped out and mignolet had to clear the ball long. Get this. Suarez was able to take down a 60 yard clearance in five yards of space. How on earth can that happen? Right at that point what must be going through rooney's and rvp's mind. Either we press as a team or not. How is this not worked on in minute detail for hours on the training ground till everyone exactly knows their job. If we think we don't have the legs at centre back because of liverpool's pace and we don't want to push our cb's to the half way line then we don't close down in ones and twos around their box. When carrick and fellaini look behind to see the cb's 10 yards inside their own half what can they do? They can't press. They are stuck in no man's land surrounded by acres of turf not affecting the game. Absolute basics and something that destroys morale. I know this is just one tiny point but it is indicative of how we are prepared.

The thing is I like Moyes as a person. I really do. I generally like his demeanour. Yes I think he has made some strange comments but he hasn't looked like crumbling under a mountain of pressure like Hodgson did at liverpool. I am sure he is at Utd for the right reasons. I am sure he is working his ass off to succeed. I just don't think he is good enough.

My last point. I believe Fergie was going to shift rooney and had spent a year settling in kagawa before he played the no10 role. Fergie still needed an extra midfield player. If moyes leaves now I think Utd have a more unbalanced squad than when he took over. A new manager is going to have a lot of talent to work with but plenty of re-arranging to do as well.

May you live in interesting times! lol

Tough decisions will need to be made. But they make sense, e.g. Play a world class number 10 as a number 10.

17 Mar 2014 00:49:41
Well my last little hope to finish in top 4 has gone now. I just now hope that glazers should think of getting a new manager sooner than latter. We need good players and a decent manger for the next season. I want any one of the following to manage us:

Klopp
Vitor Pereira
Frank De Boer

I would take graham the turnip taylor at the moment over this fool

If the club are thinking of parting ways with moyes, then I'm sure they're sounding out prospective targets now.
They should take their time and get this decision right. Klopp and van gaal are the obvious ones but their could be others that might materialise between now and the summer.
Like every united fan, I hated the way we were torn apart. But did we help ourselves by playing mata wide. Did we help ourselves by buying fellaini when clearly he's totally not united quality.
The fans were absolutely brilliant and they deserve better from the manager and the players. We need the players to stand up and be counted. If they disagree with the manager's tactics, then they should not be scared to voice their opinion IN PRIVATE to him. We need to be a cohesive force again and all the players winging to the press about playing out of position etc must stop. Sort yourselves out in private boys and start behaving like Manchester United players

I think he will get another season, unless come November we have not improved. Moyes will get his summer spend. Luckily for us he does want the best players. I had nightmares that we would sign Naismith to replace Van Persie and Osman for midfield :)

The players and manager should stand up and be counted, but unfortunately they aren't capable. I've never seen the players look so dejected. They don't like Moyes early and have no faith in him. He has to go, he's lost the dressing room, the fans and the board must be wavering. I think the only reason he is still here is SAF, Moyes is his chosen one and it looks bad on him.

Like Sydney I think Moyes will get another season to rebuild, or at least start it. However the fact that he wants the best players may not be enough. What is really needed now is a cohesive and effective tactical plan that the players can buy in to. It was hard to discern any real plan yesterday, other than pick good players and hope that it all works. If we buy 4 world class players in the Summer we won't have a good team unless they know what they are supposed to be doing.
Time for a real think about whether Rooney and RVP can be effective together, not much sign of it yet.

Cant see the point of giving him a stack of money to spend and then getting rid, I believe depending on results during the next 10 days he will be gone in the summer.can we trust him with the money after his panic buy of fellaini? and would the players he buys be wanted by any new manager potentially coming in.yesterday was a low point for me, after the 1st 2 or 3 defeats this season the shock of it happening wore off and now i'm half expecting it, but yesterday against our supposed biggest game of the season we showed no passion, no pride and no idea on the pitch.we had no plan b and i'm not sure if moyes had a plan a, to leave it till 15 minutes from time 2-0 down to make your 1st change is baffelling, the fans were fantastic yesterday especially the last 15 minutes but that's a utd front for the team everyone around my seat is totally peed off with moyes but so far the vast majority haven't made that vocal in the ground.lose on weds and then next tuesday and that could easily change.

Hey Sydney is this the same naismith and osman in the Everton team who are above you in the league and prob finish above you at end of season