Manchester United Banter Archive September 17 2014

 

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17 Sep 2014 20:26:08
Makes me laugh when you think back to after Moyes was sacked, the amount of fans from various clubs coming on here saying we can't attract top talent anymore. Then we go sign Di Maria and Falcao two of the biggest names in football for the last few years.

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Also linked to THE biggest name in world football Ronaldo.
:-)

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Funny how things turn around. Ronaldo, Falcao and Di Maria in the space of three transfer windows would be pretty remarkable.

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Very true, although monster fees and wages is clearly helping

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17 Sep 2014 18:33:27
Hi ed's. Don't know if I've missed something and not wanting to come across stupid but how do the profile badges work?

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{Ed007's Note - They're not up and working yet buddy. As soon as they are we'll let you know and Ed033 will set up a page to explain it all.}

17 Sep 2014 19:14:24
Also don't know why my new profile picture isn't coming up?

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17 Sep 2014 17:10:35
Regarding all these discussion going on about Welbeck.

Welbeck was never a natural striker. Instincts and reflexes are ought to be natural in oneself. You can develop it, but only to a reasonable extent. He finishes lordly at times, but then misses sitters most of the times. That costs at this level. United can't afford that anymore. Maybe Arsenal can? They don't care about winning trophies anyways. Its absolutely nuts to prefer him over Rooney/RVP. Rooney seems to have caught his form slowly due to class players around him, and RVP will catch up soon. I guess this argument will have vaporized by then. Oh yeah. Falcao! :D

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17 Sep 2014 12:35:05
Seeing as Hummels is a long shot, which other CB would you guys love to see at Utd. A lot of fans seem to have a soft spot for Shawcross.

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mbd              

Definitely not Shawcross for me, we already have Jones & Smalling that can play the brute. We need top class with experience, Chiellini would be my choice.

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Shawcross really isn't anything special. He would be at a bigger club already if he was. From the EPL I'd take Gary Cahill - I really do rate him. I'd of had Garay too. There are very few guys that would do a good job. I think Subotic wouldn't be a bad shout, or Inigo Martinez.

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17 Sep 2014 15:35:31
We should be aiming for top players only, there is no point aiming for lesser players. As for the experience arguement, in a perfect world we would get someone experienced, but if we can't then we need to aim for someone with world class potential.

Thats why I would go for Rapheal Varane.

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I would look at Varane at Madrid, not seen him for a while but had high potential

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17 Sep 2014 15:45:36
IF we take Varane then we might upset RONALDO again :P

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Great shout guys, forgot about Varane. He is ideal.

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Subotic without doubt. He is one of the most intelligent CBs in Europe and is so underrated. Subotic with Blind ahead of him in defensive midfield could be a very intelligent spine to our team.

However I think we will see Rojo and Jones/Smalling given a good run. Perhaps we may not even need a CB next summer, who knows? Some CB partnerships just need to gel, not necessarily have household names.

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17 Sep 2014 16:34:38
Varane would be good but would end up at Chelsea if he left madrid. I'd take subotic, inigo martinez, laporte just to name another few.

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Subotic for me as well. He has experience and is quality, not the fastest player but makes up for in positioning would play very well alongside Jones.

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17 Sep 2014 20:40:34
Antonio Rudiger or Varane for me. I like Rudiger. He reminds me of Kompany. If you haven't watched him, check him out. Plays for Stuttgart.

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17 Sep 2014 21:32:19
Whatever happened to the young lad, Kjaer? Danish, I think. Always thought he looked a good prospect.

But, yeah. Subotic would be my choice for an established talent.

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{Ed002's Note - He is now with Lille.}

17 Sep 2014 22:30:51
Lille, Ed? Obviously wasn't that good a prospect. Shows what I know.

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{Ed002's Note - What is wrong with Lille?}

Smalling's a brute? Seriously?!

I think Smalling is a Rolls Royce of a defender who's sat out a few too many games because of injury.

Can understand saying he's injured too much, positional sense can be poor, even that his distribution is not the best. But a brute?!

I'm beginning to think I'm watching a different game.

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18 Sep 2014 00:16:13
Ed, I'm sure they're a very fine team. I just thought when he was younger, from what I saw of him, that he would end up at one of the big European teams, as opposed to a provincial French one.

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{Ed002's Note - That is not how footballers are distributed between teams I am afraid.}

Dodgy Banter - By Brute I mean someone what throws themselves into tackles, competes in the air well, a dopey lump otherwise. Personally I think he is very similar to Shawcross who is often regarded as a brute. We need quality on the ball as well as leadership and raw defending skills with our next CM signing.

Smalling isn't a thug, but he is a defender with all the raw attributes a defender needs but not the brain to use them or the skills just yet, a dumb brute for me but every team needs them.

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18 Sep 2014 09:22:49
Ed, I'm not trying to be funny, but how is the way players are distributed, got anything to do with thinking a good young player, who, in my opinion, showed a lot of early promise, might end up at a big club? Is that not a commonly held belief amongst most football fans, when we see young players with plenty of ability? Top players tend to go to bigger clubs - or am I missing something?

My original reply was meant tongue-in-cheek - I thought that was obvious from my, 'shows what I know' comment. Profuse apologies to Lille and any of their supporters on this site, for any disrespect shown.

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{Ed002's Note - As we know, football fans as a sub-culture or urban tribe are generally not the brightest. They have to have their dress code defined for them and they often group together in packs. Many use a lot of naïve subjective terms like "top players" and "bigger clubs" but don't consider why hasn't Manchester United, for example, seen an exodus of all of their "top players" to the "bigger clubs" (those in the Champions League) this summer? Would the tiny, insignificant clubs like Valencia, Inter Milan or Dynamo Moscow ever attract "top players"? What about those poxy little teams like Ajax, Lille and Porto? Why would any "top players" go there? I appreciate you reply might have been tongue-in-cheek but football does extend beyond the confines of Manchester and Surrey. There are many fans who will go along to Lille's 50k seat stadium each week and they have seen many great players over the years - perhaps not just the few players some of the fans here have heard of, but others like Baratte, Eden Hazard, Acimovic, Payat, Adil Rami, Costa, Abidal and Joe Cole who you have likely never have come across.}

18 Sep 2014 14:35:56
I ............nonsense removed................

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{Ed002's Note - You personify the ignorance of many modern football fans. You know nothing of anything beyond your trivial little world and look down your nose at clubs like Lille, who you clearly see as second rate. As for you comment about my father, he was born in 1911 and is of course long since dead. You seem to be just brain dead.}

I really rate Badstuber. Seems to have been around for ages. Nothing much wrong with his game. Manolas looks a big talent as does Castan at Roma. Rannochia is a top defender, can play in a three man defence. He wins so many tackles. Top player in my opinion.
Barzagli is still a fantastic player. Shame he is at the end of his career. He reads the game so well. Chellini and him are a brilliant partnership.

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17 Sep 2014 08:23:39
Beast
Whats your verdict on welbecks performance last night

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Same as always, gets in great positions but blows it most the time, 16m was a good price for him

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17 Sep 2014 10:16:56
Ran around a lot, put pace into attacks, but struggled to score, so exactly as he was at United. A good 3rd / 4th choice striker to have coming off the bench to create something, but never a first choice striker in a champions league side.

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Arsenal fans on the radio have already started talking like we did. Good physical ability but never looks like scoring. Funny how he was the new Henry when he signed.

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Never had the presence, flair, finishing ability or control of the ball that Henry did.

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Slate him as much as you want; but his turn for the third chance that he should have scored was sublime!

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17 Sep 2014 11:15:00
redseven,

He has the odd bit of magic in his locker, as we saw in the disallowed goal against Munich at OT last year, but it is not often enough unfortunately.

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17 Sep 2014 11:21:25
He will score goals, but will never be prolific enough to be a first choice striker at a top 5 club, for me. I would rather give Wilson his game time and see how far he can go.

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It was 'redseven' - but 8 out of 10 times we will always say he 'should' of scored.

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It says everything about Welbeck that the thing that finished him at United was trying to chip Neuer when the players were specifically told 1 on 1 he stands tall and you need to keep the ball down.

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Unfortunately i'm in a remote part of Italy at the minute and connection isn't good enough for matches. However it seems he is being slated for a bad miss against BVB, isn't that what strikers do a lot of the time, he took both chances he had for England the other night, but missed (just) against City, strikers score and miss, it's being there that matters and improving?

RVP missed a great chance on Sunday, Falcao missed a chance that Welbeck would have been slated for as well. At the end of the day he has great potential, has aspects of his game to improve on and is going to improve, Rooney & RVP are only going to go backwards and cost a hell of a lot in wages. They also have performed worse than him on the pitch this calendar year, despite Welbeck being out of position.

Welbeck has a lot to offer, yes he misses chances, but he creates a lot of his own chances and also will find a rhythm. Far too soon to be throwing the "I told you so" card out of the pack JRed.

Lets see where we are at Xmas, I still think he is a better all round player than Rooney & RVP now.

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Hes been at old traford how long and still has not improved

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Welbeck had many opportunities at Old Trafford but never grabbed one. My opinion on Welbeck has not changed for a few years as he has done nothing to change my view. He has the attributes of a powerful athlete but lacks the instinct of a natural striker. When given time to think about his actions and especially when the pressure was on he made the wrong decision. A game for Arsenal or a decent one for England will not make him that quintessential striker. He is not on Rooney or RVP's level let alone Falcao.
People said the same about Nani for several years on here until it generally became obvious now it's Welbeck's turn. It is sentiment talking rather than a seasoned eye on the performances.
Wilson is a far far better prospect than Welbeck and Falcao is world class. RVP needs to buck up but it was right to sell Danny and like Nani people need to get over it.

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Beast
I just asked a question

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Yeah cool Jred - you knew the can of worms was going to be opened for another Beasting for me on Welbeck!haha

We have a clinical striker in Falcao. Rooney & RVP have not been clinical for a while now and have offered very little else to the team. Therefore Welbeck is of more direct value as he does more than Rooney & RVP to change games imo. This could change, his athleticism is something we have lacked until very recently. With ADM & Herrera breaking from midfield Welbeck isn't essential anymore which is why he was sold, especially with Falcao coming in.

If Danny expected to be our main striker then he needed to be sold as many have said, he isn't good enough to spear head our attack, but I do think he would do a better job of it than Rooney & RVP. If we had played Welbeck upfront all last season and had him take penalties he would have scored more than both of them I believe.

I do agree that Rooney should thrive with better players around him, but so would anyone really. He played ok against QPR and RVP had another shocker. I think RVP used up all he had for those first 4 months with us.

Roll on Leicester.

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"Rooney & RVP have not been clinical for a while now and have offered very little else to the team."

I do sometimes think that you are on a windup most of the times. Roo and Persie contributed to more than 60 goals last season. If that constitutes to doing little, Danny Welbeck should be jobless.

Deeps.

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Beast
Fair enough,

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17 Sep 2014 21:36:10
I know where you're coming from, Beast. I thought it was a bit unfair of jred, picking up on his performance last night to ask you about, when no-one asked you what you thought after the England game.

Shame on you jred!

ps. I still don't think he was good enough to be at Utd, though.

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Stevie
I was at the work for the england match with no internet, honest .
Deeps
Im still undecided if beast is a troll

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If I were a troll then I'm obviously not a good one as it has taken hundreds of my posts for you still to be undecided?

I just see things differently to you Jred & Deeps. I tend to prefer to ignore what commentators and sports writers say about the games I have watched with my own eyes and judge for myself.

I have soft spots for players like you both do, but I don't let that cloud my judgement. I try to watch every game like the players don't have a name on their back - it's amazing what gets ignored and what gets picked up on depending on who the player is they are talking about.

It's almost criminal how bias they are.

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Beast, on the contrary, the press has been usually kind to Danny constantly trotting out the "Give him time" line. That is obviously because he left United. You still don't answer how players who don't offer anything contribute to more than 60 goals in a season? It's shocking how much you overrate Welbeck.

Deeps.

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Deeps - I don't know the stats I'm afraid so taking your word for it I am assuming those 60 goals were where RVP or Rooney touched the ball at some point in the attack (as Moyes instructed everyone to give Rooney the ball it doesn't surprise me)? Furthermore how many of those goals came against top 10 opposition or were crucial goals (not from the penalty spot or freekick). I am just saying that RVP & Rooney have not played well during 2014 on the whole. They have not been prolific (remember we finished 7th), they have not delivered in big games consistently and they have offered very little creatively considering they are the two players we have been focussing on.

Yes our midfield being poor is a lot to do with it, but Welbeck can still do a job without good service, he can create for himself. Rooney & RVP need to be spoon fed and miss just as many guilt edge chances as Welbeck in front of goal.

I am simply saying that Welbeck would have brought more to our team pre ADM signing than RVP & Rooney did.

Do you think Rooney & RVP have deserved their automatic selection on anything other than reputation during 2014?

They have both been top class players, but those days are few and far between now, just facing facts.

At this moment in time I would have Welbeck starting ahead of RVP & Rooney in terms of long term form.

Another point Deeps. Maybe it's not that I don't over rate Welbeck, it is more to do with the fact that I don't think Rooney & RVP are all that great anymore.

I'm still waiting for a top quality performance from both of them, it has been a long time.

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Robin Van Persie - 18 goals 5 assists
Wayne Rooney - 19 goals and 17 assists

These are the stats i was referring to. With admittedly low key seasons, look at these numbers. There is a reason why the 2 of them were our focal point, because they are our best players.

Welbeck has scored 28 goals in 125 senior appearances. That is a dismal return for any top level striker. I agree that Persie and Roo haven't been world class, but Welbeck has not even been average. Even when he had a run as our main striker his figures are average. The much famed "purple patch" that he hit last year got him 6 goals in 12 starts. Fancy footwork, pace and zero end product is our Danny. He has missed so many sitters that I can't even remember. Yes Roo and Persie have missed their fair share, but look at their composure when bearing down on goal. You just think they will score, but with Welbeck you have to guess Row Z. You had said Welbeck might be the top scorer this season, well if that is not overrating him, what is my friend? I have a soft spot for our Wayne but i can back that up with tremendous productivity for 10 seasons now. Look at the 2 Arse games, he(Welbz) misses chances in a manner that makes him look foolish. Anyways i wish the lad luck, he came through our youth ranks. But to even say he is a GOOD player right now will be a hyperbole. He has a lot to prove. RVP and Rooney have done it for seasons and hence fans can cut them some slack. Let Welbeck first achieve something and then we can talk. By the way he enginnered the move to Arsenal, what do you make of it?

Deeps.

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Even when below par rvp and rooney are better players than welbeck.
When either rooney or rvp leave they will be replaced by a better player than welbeck.
Welbeck imo will never reach there level.
I would have wilson ahead of welbeck .

When welbeck left lvg summed it up perfectly

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Jred & Deeps - I think he will get a lot of goals at Arsenal if played upfront and with the service they provide. Maybe Costa will pip him to top scorer but he seems to have carried that hamstring for a long time so could be out for a while soon.

I think Welbeck brings more to the table than just goals. We are never going to agree on it and I want Rooney & RVP to pull their fingers out so I am not just playing devils advocate for the fun of it.

I hope with class around them Rooney & RVP will lift their games to the level they should be operating at, not just their assists and goals stats, (most of which came against weaker opposition last season or were set-pieces).

Lets leave Welbeck talk alone for a bit and we can see who was right or wrong at Christmas time, not after every miss or every goal he scores because we will just repeat ourselves.

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17 Sep 2014 00:30:33
I know its VERY early days, but I'd be interested to know how many people think that we'll make Falcao a permanent signing?

If we do, then I think its probably fair to say RvP will be leaving in the near future.

I would be interested to hear you guys' thoughts(/abuse (:-p))!

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I can't see it - at least not at the the price being quoted in the press when we signed him. £32m (bearing in mind we have already paid 6) is as much as I can see us paying.

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From seeing him previously at Athletico and Monaco he most definitely has the ability. But will he be the same after his injury? At 28 would it be good value as their will surely be very little re-sale value.

If we are splashing money around why not. I agree with you that If we did sign him on a permanent basis I would leave little room for RVP with Rooney looking unlikely to be dropped due to his captaincy, the emergence of Wilson and Falcao surely he will be down the pecking order. That is unless we play with two strikers. I would assume us qualifying for the Champions league next season will have some effect on whether we sign Falcao. More games in the season and inevitably more injuries. Playing with 2 strikers would give our 4 strikers Rooney, Falcao, Wilson and Rvp a decent amount of game time. providing we have a good cup run and get past the group stage of CL next season.

But RVP will be 32 next season so at the same time we could easily bring in another relatively young striker next season to replace him.

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Watched sunday supplement at the weekend and they had on a european football journalist who said that personal terms had already been agreed with falcao with a viewto him signing at the end of this season providing he had proved his fitness.
I suppose the bigger question that may face utd is that they may have a choice to make between falcao and ronaldo. Interested to see how that pans out but let's get through this season first.

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It's a tricky one with Falcao, if he plays amazing this season then I can see Madrid coming in. If he doesn't do well then we won't sign him, so it's kind of no both ways!

Even if we have first option I don't think it will make much difference if his heart is for Real. Probably Ronaldo will be involved at that point though.

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I may be wrong but Falcao's agent is Mendes also Ronaldo's agent. We have always had a good relationship with Mendes. Madrid opted out of the chance to sign Falcao this summer and if I read it right there is tension between Mendes and Perez at Madrid with Perez recently referring to an agent in a statement. Ronaldo is also unhappy at the moment and giving negative vibes about Madrids direction, so I don't see why Falcao would necessarily go to Madrid next summer unless we didn't want him. For me Madrid made a mistake this summer selling DiMaria and buying Rodriguez, it appears based on a good World Cup, plus letting Alonso go. If Falcao has a good season and sees other top players arriving next summer at OT plus knows Madrid rejected him why would he go elsewhere? if we want him.

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17 Sep 2014 18:22:01
Falcao seemed pretty thrilled in the tv interview sat in the dressing room.

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17 Sep 2014 20:22:00
Agree with Red Man, if RM rejected the chance to sign him then maybe he'll have different ideas about joining them given the chance. If we do well this season and he personally has a good season I can't see him wanting to move. I know it may have just been usual talk but he spoke about wanting to become a legend at this club.

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