Manchester United Banter Archive April 18 2014

18 Apr 2014 18:22:15
Interesting comments from baines where he says under martinez everton now focus on their strengths and are a lot more positive. Under moyes they focused more on adapting to the opposition something we have seen all too often this season. That is his mentality I'm afraid and no good for us

Damon

I was just about pst this and saw your post. Both interesting and worrying I think

I think this post is a bit pointless.

You're saying that managers who have an "Defend first, attack second" Philosophy aren't good enough for United?

Well I hate to break it to you but Jose Mourinho, the man nearly EVERYONE wanted to replace Sir Alex does exactly the same thing as Moyes and focuses on stopping your opponent first.

Mourinho may do it better, but his philosophy is still the same.

Also, people bang on about Klopp, and yes, he's a terrific manager but in a lot, and I mean a lot he caters to stopping the opponent before concentrating on his own teams attack - although it is a lot more subtle and it's mainly through team selection.

Even Sir Alex was a defensive minded manager, think Barcelona finals just to highlight.

My point is, that just because a manager has a cautious approach does not mean they cannot be successful or entertaining.

I had just as much fun watching Jose's Inter stop Barcelona in the UCL as I did watching the El Classico the other night.

Defensive football can be entertaining.

So Moyes may be the wrong man for the job, but don't base your argument on a view which comes across as if defensive management is wrong.

- Capello
- Lippi
- Benitez
- Mourinho
- Sir Alex (to an extent)
- Klopp (to an extent)
- Mancini
and many more, focus on how to stop their opponent rather than how the opponent will stop them. and pretty much all of these listed have been very successful throughout their careers so far.

Tim Howard said the same thing months ago. I am pretty sure other Everton players have too, but can't remember who. Ross Barkley perhaps?

The moon you have obviously gone away with the fairies here. I am talking about moyes and moyes only I mentioned nothing other than moyes style. Exactly u also compare moyes style to a lot of other managers who have had a lot of success so there's the answer regardless of whatever style he's got it isn't good enough and that's all I was getting at.

Very worrying AJH your right mate

Moon

SAF rarely did it and frankly, I don't want a Manager of United to do it. I want a manager true to our beliefs and values, one who understands how we play is as important as the result. However you cut it, the Everton players appear to be happier under Martinez than under Moyes and DM regularly shows his true colours with his comments in press conferences.

I don't want a defensive manager. I want one who wants to win, who wants to entertain, who wants to stick it to the opposition.

Sun Tzu wrote in Art of War

"The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy."

I think the managers you mentioned above are trying to follow the same in one form or the other. That may mean a small sacrifice in terms of attractive football from time to time, depending on the opposition. but a more robust & pragmatic approach for better results. Can't be all offensive or all defensive at all times irrespective of opposition (bayern or sunderland, with all due respect).

It's getting a bit out of hand. Yes, Moyes is a safety first coach. He never played expansive, attacking football. But guess what, so does Mourinho. Everybody kept banging on about Athletico Madrid's Simeone or Juventus' Conte, 2 of the most defensive minded coaches in the game.

Moon, let's not overdo it. Ferguson got us playing out and out attacking football 99% of the time. People forget that a flat 4-4-2 is one of the most attacking, expansive formations out there. He was not defensive to an extent ( maybe in the last couple of seasons after losing Ronaldo with Giggs and Scholes getting older ), he only defended when we desperately had to ( against an all conquering Barcelona team that had 4 of the world's best players at their disposal ).

Klopp is not defensive minded. He plays progressive quick counter attacking football. They do not sit deep and break at pace, they press and attack at pace. Their possession stats are 50-50 on average, but it's because they get forward at every possible opportunity and in great numbers. As entertaining football as I've ever watched.

The end result we would all take I think is fast free flowing counter attacking as United did for years under SAF. That can be very exciting but like all things it's about balance

The point here may be subtle, yet the Baines comment is actually a real hammer blow. Stopping an opponent playing might be important playing away against City or Barcelona but Moyes has been looking to do this at home against teams like Newcastle. Look at his comment before the Newcastle game itself when he said we would make it difficult for them. Then look at what he said about the difficulty in expectation as to how we are to play at home. It is Moyes attitude towards how we are to play that is an issue. For many years we have tried to impose our play on the opposition and only occasionally in games against Barcelona for example have we struggled. Yet now Moyes has us worrying against anyone that was a superior team to what he was used to. There is a reason he hasn't beaten the top teams and why we have struggled this season against the top teams. If he stays as manager, and I hope to goodness he doesn't, we will be one loss against a good side from another crisis of confidence again and, I fear, back to worrying about what the opposition do.

Again agree with redman

He is not BRAVE enough to be Man United manager, a 'not losing first' by worrying about the newcastles of this world mentality is all wrong for our club

I'm just hoping one of the glazers are brave enough to go head to head with fergie by sacking poor old mediocre moyes (whom I have some sympathy for as;as someone once said a dog can't help being a dog :( )

Redman + roonbest

Agree with u both 100%.

The problem with moyes is he is so concerned on making it difficult for the opposition in the big league games and taking the defensive approach that we end up only creating 1 or 2 half chances. This is the reason we have only scored 3 goals in 8 games against top 4 opposition which is completely pathetic. Moyes way is not the united way and no matter who he signs that is his way and for us as a club I don't think its ever gona work because its simply not our way

Damon, I agree and have been saying this all season. If you don't create chances, you won't score goals. MU in the past have created tens of chances in each game. Players like Andy Cole needed five chances to score two. He was prolific because we created several chances per a game. I doubt he would have ten goals if he was in this current team. SAF's oddest ever decision was nominating Moyes to be manager. Absolutely bizarre.

Ferguson was never afraid of teams because he knew we could beat anyone we still can but Moyes never has and never will believe we can

Sydney

You seem to conveniently forget that for 10 years we had he best midfield 4 in the world and whilst we created a ton of chances we also controlled everything in the middle of the pitch.

I think all you guys seem to simply see what you want to see to suit your argument.
The last few years we have lost the midfield battle to even mid table teams in the PL. We are grossly slow or poor in terms of skilled midfielders and leak goal with an ageing defines. Bad recipe if you ask me.

GCU. and yet we kept on winning.

Mindset is most of the battle.
What ever you focus your attention on is what inevitably will happen. Worry about what the opponent can do and guess what there going to do it.
Focus on what you can do and believe you can and will do it against any team any day and. again its probably going to happen.

Do you think it coincidence we could would and always believed that even at 2 nil down with 10 mins to go that we would go on to win the game.

Taking everything into consideration it is clear moyes mindset and approach has to change. Or we have to change for a manager with the united mindset were used to ( which do you guys think is most likely to happen first? )

Domi

Mindset will get you so far, just like 40 year old boxers who still think they can win, for everyone one that does 30 don't.

It was always on the cards the way we have gone about our business in the last 5 years.

If being grossly slow in midfield was our main issue why did Moyes buy Fellaini?

This season would not have happened with SAF in charge or a top manager. The season was on the cards when we appointed this manager because he is out of his depth

18 Apr 2014 14:45:31
Sad day for football. west ham star Dylan Tombides has died at the tender age of 20 after a 3yr battle with testicular cancer. So unfortunate
that lives are ended so quickly. I hope his family stay strong and may he Rest in peace.

I echo your sentiments, Tremours.

Very sad.

How sad, thoughts are with him and his family during this difficult time.
R.I.P

18 Apr 2014 14:00:57
Is it only me or is William Carvalho not a carbon copy of Paul Pogba? Maybe a few slight differences, Carvalho seems the better dribbler and Pogba probably has a better shot from distance but other then that they seem remarkably similiar.

Lets hope Carvalho, if we buy him, has a bit more passion about our great club then Pogba.

Perfect player for me, we have needed the Pogba / Yaya Toure player and we have got him (if reports are to be believed).

I don't know if it's only you, but I just don't see similarities. Pogba is skillful, great on the ball, and likes to drive forward. His workrate and positioning are average at best though. He does a sub par defensive job most of the time. Carvalho on the other hand is not as skillful on the ball, less creative, but he is significantly stronger and more defensively sound.

They aren't similar but they have similar roles. He is more of a Yaya than a Pogba I think.

Carvalho is nothing like Yaya other than in build. Yaya is strong, skilful and good on the ball and scores lots of goals. Carvalho is physically very strong but his technical ability is very limited. He knows his limitations and plays to his strengths. His positional sense is good as is his tackling. He will break play up and win back possession. But he plays the ball simple and allows better players to do their thing. I've read in here that he is a great passer, good with both feet and likes to burst forwards from midfield. That doesn't would like the player I have watched (only a few times admittedly).
Basically, Calvalho is a commanding, defensive midfiielder who will sit in front if the back 4. He is the ideal type of player to play in a 4231, but is limited technically. He is only just 22 so has plenty of time to develop that side of his game. But he is not this box to box, marauding midfielder that some seem to think.

I think carvalho is more of a viera type player

I have seen him go forward on many occasions and just run past players. His passing isn't terrific but its functional and we will have sufficient players in the team who pass well e.g. Kagawa, Mata, Rooney and any new signings that we make.

18 Apr 2014 12:05:41
Ed002 haas stated several times that we are strongly interest in Vidal. Having years left on his contract the possibilities of us signing him seem bleak. However for Juve wanting a striker and according to the press a strong interest in RVP. How would people feel about a cut price RVP going to Juve and Arturo Vidal coming to OT for a (UTD) record fee?

I love Vidal, but I just can't sacrifice RVP. Unless we sign Cavani. it's beyond ridiculous to expect Vidal and the likes of Cavani to rock up at Carrington come August.

{Ed004's Note - I'd love Vidal and think in an ideal world a midfield of Kroos/Carvalho and Vidal with Mata in the number 10 would be the best in the league. Kagawa and Reus/a winger with speed (Di Maria, Sanchez, Griezman etc) with RVP or Rooney up front is the way to go. My issue is who do you drop/sell. There isn't a chance in hell either will be happy being back up. Though I reckon there will be much more interest in RVP and he would adapt easier to a new economy than Rooney. So I can't see how we could sell Rooney I don't think we would get as many offers}

Realistically chaps, none of our stars are going to be sold - not this year anyway. There is too much work to be done to even consider selling one of Rooney or RVP. I have said for a long time that once the midfield pair improve the rest of the team will improve with it. As I have just commented on another post, I see Moyes sticking RVP back up top (he is one of the very best strikers around), Rooney behind him with Mata right as an inside forward who often plays as a number 10 with the full back giving width. We would then have Kagawa/Januzaj or new signing on the left (hopefully Reus).

Having a more solid midfield pairing will help out every area of the team. William Caravlho is going to be an absolute rock and we can either pair him with Fellaini or a new signing. Perhaps Kroos and Gundogan are unlikely, as are many others but we have today been linked with Enzo Perez who wouldn't be a bad signing at all. I am a big fan of the Portugese League and he is a brilliant player, strong and skillful.

Pure conjecture of course, but I'd let RVP go and I would try and keep Hernandez, who could have a terrific season if we actually had players who pass the ball well, move off it into space, have good close control, and who cross accurately with intent rather than blindly.

I cannot see the sense in letting go of one of the best players in the League. It's non sensical.

Fresh, Barceona got rid of Ronaldinho, Ibra and Eto. Never mind the league, they were 3 of the best players in the world at their time and yet they kept improving.

No matter how magnificent a player is ( unless his name is Ronaldo/ Messi ) there is absolutely no reason for a coach to destabilize the team to get the best out of him. For me, until Moyes chooses to get rid/ bench one of Rooney/ RVP, we will not move forward.

We have to choose which one is our Messi, and which one is our Ibra. We have to get rid of one to get the best out of the other ( not to mention Mata who has an Iniesta-like role in the story ).

{Ed004's Note - And I'd chose RVP but not in mood to start a huge debate on the matter again}

Well we will have to see who performs better in the new side when everyones fit. It might work beautifully or it might be awful, time will tell.

I agree mick1, Rooney and rvp should share the centre forward position, although I'd like to have a look at Rooney on the left of a front three.

18 Apr 2014 00:01:10
not really united related but did people see bales amazing goal vs barca? the pace on that lad is unreal. too bad we couldn't get him at united he'd be the perfect replacement for giggs. We need a player with pace and direct threat on our flanks

Scary pace and athleticism. I see him and ronaldo causing bayern all sorts or problems in the champions league semis.