Manchester United Banter Archive September 19 2013

 

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19 Sep 2013 22:12:14
Just want to say I'm delighted at the return of Ed02 on this site. It really wasn't the same these last few months and the standard of banter also declined. Also, great to have Bond around more frequently too.

Believable0 Unbelievable0

19 Sep 2013 22:06:54
What do you guys think?

The role of Giggs going forward cannot be in the big games but in the lesser games sharing experience with the younger players?

We have got to start putting faith in Kagawa and developing Lingard / Januzaj / Zaha.

Nana / Valencia need to fight out a place between them.

I was really impressed with the very fluid 4-2-3-1 formation against Leverkusen - and that in the U21's midweek where Januzaj - Lingard - Cole was played behind Keane.

Nice to see the U21s and first team ply the same way.

On the first team I think Fellaini's role allows Carrick freedom - in a "more" scholes like role

My thoughts for weekend are leave Giggs out (please- & play him the cup against the scousers) and start with the same team in Europe

Rambling drunken rant over.

Believable0 Unbelievable0

We actually played more of a 442 on tuesday because rooney and rvp were playing alongside each other with one occasionally droping deep and swapping position with kagawa but its good to see us play free flowing football. Also I thought the u21s were brilliant in the 2nd half on monday and I think a few deserve a chance against liverpool in the league cup especially cole, lingard, micheal keane, thorpe and januzaj who absolutley ran the game it reminded me of a young paul scholes.

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19 Sep 2013 20:13:45
If you watch a Dortmund game then watch one of ours you can see the difference in pace and style, Kagawa fit perfectly with their quick passing style, a style we don't use! He won't fit into our team until a Gundogan/Fabregas type of player joins to help with the link up!

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I agree Fredo, a couple of years ago SAF talked about mirroring the Barcelona way of playing so I thought Kagawa would be perfect. SAF wanted Thiago in the summer and I thought we would have a quick one-touch passing game forming. But Moyes went for Fellaini and seems to be going in a total different way to what Barcelona are doing. I think we will keep building up slowly, but I think we will close down and push up off of the ball like Barcelona. So in possession we will stay the same, but off the ball we will play the Barcelona way, perhaps that's what SAF meant? I like Kags and think he will be a good player for us, but I think Rooney and Welbeck will keep him out of the big games.

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I completely agree, however adding to the OP top players should have lots of different styles they should be able to play and if he is as good as everyone says then he should adapt his to suit Moyes but to do this he would need game time!

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And about the Barca point, I think it was the way they play without the ball SAF was talking about as we have never had the players to suit that style!

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Do we really need to go the way which Barcelona play? Bayern destroyed them playing a counter attacking style.

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To be honest I was impressed with the work off the ball that we were doing. It's does make things hard for opposition players. I expect to see and looking forward to seeing Kagawa play well this season, I just think Welbeck plays the role very well and he does have a good record against City.

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19 Sep 2013 21:30:57
quick passing.thats why I think kagawa and januzaj should play together.

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I think kagawa will play mostly from the left and will cut inside like he did for japan in the summer. I think moyes likes his left sided players to cut inside and have the full back to provide width by overlapping he did this with pienarr and baines at everton and I think it will get the best out of kagawa and januzaj when he gets a chance he also tried it against liverpool with young on the left and giggs on the right to little effect this is probarbly why he brought on valencia at right back shame he had an oap a head of him. I think this style of play will work better when rafeal is fit and flying down the right hand side. As for playing like barca I think fergie meant more possesion rather then closing teams down as he always liked to get players to get back behind the ball and hit teams on a quick counter attack.

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19 Sep 2013 19:24:43
Jeez, we're in trouble when people are saying we should play Welbeck instead of Kagawa.

Believable0 Unbelievable0

I agree, don't know why we can't play a fluid versatile front formation of a 3 behind a 1 like dortmund.
No player in a fixed position but all 4 rotating around. I think if we played a front 4 of Nani, Kagawa, Rooney and Rvp, all of them have the ability to play in those positions.
We've seen dortmund (Jukub, gotze, rues, Lew) numerous times, especially when counter attacking these players would all be going forward but in different positions.
Sydney earlier said kagawa is a luxury player and can't defend which is nonsense. Against levurkusen he was obviously told when attacking to go central, but when he had to defend he had to run out to the wing, which meant he was running a lot back and fourth! But if he was in the hole properly he would be up against the player next to him i.e. cdm or the most advanced cb.

I fear that we lose potentially our bets creative player due our rigid formation. And people say he hasn't proven himself in the EPL? how can he playing from the left wing in a side that plays old fashioned football. And he's already proven himself at dortmund, a team that all there starting 11 +1or2 more bar schmelzer would walk into our starting 11.

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AJH

Tactically they are very different though. If we're talking about the City game then it's a tough call IMO.

Although I love Kags - he's one of my favourites and I'd love for him to succeed he's not shown that he can adapt to our style of play effectively YET. In a big game like the Manchester derby we know more what we can expect from Welbeck - he's got the pace and athleticism to get in behind them on the break, which tactically is very useful considering RvP and Rooney don't pose that threat of pace but do have the ability to play him in. He is also quick to track back and cause a nuisance of himself which I think Moyes values. I will concede that he lacks technique, composure and 1st touch at times but - even though I'm a far bigger fan of Kags - I can see why Danny might be more useful in a bustling derby for us right now. Just my opinion and TBH my opinion on this has changed over time.

Of course in an ideal world I'd like Kagawa to come on after 60 mins to score/assist a hatrick and stamp his place in the team. But for now I'd understand if Moyes picked Welbeck on Sunday.

Sulei

It's all well and good saying 'why don't we just play like Dortmund play' but that would take a lot of time and effort and would probably result in many drops in form/results before any improvement. They play a very different game to us with very quick build up play which none of our players have been playing regularly, yet all of their players have.

It sounds easy but that would take so much work i.e. 1) to change the whole philosophy of how the team are playing mid-season 2) for Moyes to change his mind about how he wants us to play (very unlikely), and 3) for all the players to adapt to the new style (risky at this stage).

It's sounds easy but it's far from it IMO.

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To add to that, I do want to see Kagawa given a full chance to prove himself. He should be on the bench v City but then start v Liverpool in the League Cup and given a good run in our subsequent league games IMO.

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Hb
I think kags needs a really good one that makes it difficult for moyes to drop him.
Imo he needs to play his way into moyes plans

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19 Sep 2013 19:18:24
perhaps not the best goal but one of our most important 21 April 1999.

2-0 down away to juve

martin Tyler can they score they always score.

Keane near post header.

still makes the hair on my neck stand up.

true leader great captain Roy Keane.

Believable0 Unbelievable0

Agree about the goal but I think the quote was Clive Tyldesley at the CL final '99 just before Teddy equalised.

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Martin Tyler? Who's he! Clearly dementia has set in at 38. Sure it was juve tho. But then again I was sure it was martin. Great year tho!

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It was ' And Roy Keane with a captains goal!'

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Definately right about the "true leader" mate. Something we have lacked in the middle of the park since Keano left. He dragged us into the final in that match, having been booked and knowing he would miss the biggest game of his life. He just rolled his sleeves up and tried even harder to do his bit for the team.
Yes, a true leader.

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Nope, def 99 final. I remember it live but have now googled it just to check.

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Yerp just done the same. Keano immense. Never seen one man pull a team over the line like him.

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Ohh yes what a night remember it well 2-0 down with two goals from inzaghi in the first 10 mins or so we looked down an out but Keane set us on the way to a brilliant 3-2 on the night an 4-3 on aggregate! Never forget tyldesleys words. FULL STEAM AHEAD BARCELONA!

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Never seen a man pull us over the line like that?

Did you not see the final?, The Arsenal Semi, the goup games in CL etc? Big Pete won us that treble and although Keane can almost solely be praised for the 'Turn around in Turin' (copyright ;) Big Petes heroics throughout the season got us where we were IMO.

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19 Sep 2013 19:14:42
Syd

Completely disagree about Kagawa being a second striker, not sure where you have got that from. DM may or may not 'fancy' him and whilst he has yet to impress, he needs a run of games and to build up more strength so he isn't knocked off the ball so easily. let's give the lad a break and hope he gets that run

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Kagawa is a 2nd striker AJH, that is a fact. He has said that himself. He's a number ten.

I am a massive fan of Kagawa and I expect him to get several goals and assists this season. My only point is that I do not believe he is first choice in his main position (hole) and he will not be first choice on the left. If Welbeck is 100% he will play against City as he offers more defensively.

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He's a central attackin midfielder, according to klopp, i'll take his opinion over everyone else, and a number 10 in a 5 man midfield isn't a second striker, maradona was number a number 10 for instance.

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Mick

Come on mate, if its a choice between Syd and Klopp I'm guessing Syd is right. :-)

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Rooney has been playing as a second striker this year I would say kagawa is an attacking midfielder

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Mick, I will listen to Kagawa's opinion. He says he's a number ten and I agree with him. He plays behind the main striker which for me is a 2nd striker. It's still a CAM, but slightly more advanced.

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Kagawa's favoured position is behind the main striker, like he said in his first interview sat next to SAF and Nick Powell. Now call me crazy, but I would say that is a 2nd striker role. With Rooney being the 2nd striker and Kagawa being his competition for his position, could that also indicate he too is a 2nd striker? Is there much difference between these positions anyway? Seems a pointless discussion.

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I would say an ACM would play of a main striker he would be part of the midfield an oezil type, Rooney has also played this role in the past but this year seems to be ss in a strike partnership with rvp, like yorke/Cole. I don't see this as kagawas best position imo

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I always believed a 2nd striker played behind the main striker. That is Kagawa's favoured position, he has said so himself. Oezil is also a number ten, hence Jose saying he was the best number ten in the world. Number ten, in the hole and a second striker for me are all pretty much the same thing.

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It's a very fine line between a no. 10 and an AM when you think about it? Very subjective really.

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Sydney that is not necessarily true. Take Real Madrid as a case.

I think people read too much into this stuff now and you need the players to play certain formations. In most cases the number 10 in 4231 is scoring if you have winger/forwards and opening up the pitch for the number 10.

Isco is playing as a number 10 at the moment and scoring but if you are defending against a bale and Ronaldo, you will always overload the wings and that opens up the pitch down the middle. Is Isco a second a striker, I don't think so.

We are missing the creative midfielder and wingers to be able to play Kagawa in the hole, which I agree is his best position. Even if had them it will not happen as Rooney on the wings struggles and is not comfortable there and sitting him on the bench creates all the fuss that we have witnessed this summer.

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19 Sep 2013 19:09:50
Funny how the narrative has changed after just one game. we have gone from this is kagawa's breakthrough season to he is just not able for our style of football and the EPL style. Can we put the firing squad on hold until Christmas at least guys.

Believable0 Unbelievable0

His timing was just slightly off the other night and he was holding onto the ball for that second too long( understandable considering it was his first start this season) , great player and in a few weeks everyone will be eating their words

On the other hand if moyes is of the same opinion as some on here then maybe he won't get many chances, hopefully moyes sees him as we do

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Born

Agree entirely. The hype about him has been over the top but writing him off after 1 game is plain silly.

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Haha fair point!

I've rated Kagawa all along but I'll admit I do doubt how he will fit in. The thing is, my doubts haven't just started now but I've been holding them in because I've seen how good he can be (for Dortmund) and would love him to emulate that for us.

So although I do doubt his long term future with us I still very much hope he proves people wrong and shows he can adapt to that LAM role in our system. I think he's got it in him but he needs to start showing it whenever he gets a decent run of games.

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19 Sep 2013 18:12:05
I find it amazing Gerrard is beating Scholes on the player vote on the guardian website. Send that poll abroad to avoid the ABU lot and Scholes would have 90% + of the vote.

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Good shout, exactly he would walk it outside England

Roonbest

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It's only a newspaper poll, mate :) Two great players. Why must we always try and rate individuals against each other "My club legend is better than your club legend";silly playground stuff that sounds embarrassingly similar to "My dad can beat up your dad.

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Stupid poll, 2 great players and silly to compare them

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Scholes was on 60percent roughly after the first day gerrard was around 30ish and Lampard around 10ish.
There was then across yesterday an approximate 15 percent change between Scholes and gerrard, I then checked the Liverpool page and there was a link placed yesterday morning there just titled "vote Gerrard!". I'm guessing it may have been placed on other Liverpool sites also, but who knows. Only a poll I know but it will further compound the delusion. What is amusing is the comments that are left by the lfc fans justifying their choice. Worth a look just to see how some people's minds work.

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Supasub
I assume that is you who just posted on The Guardian comments page. Very well put, although I don't suppose the scousers will give a to$$, but it does make a nonsense of a poll when they put links ther site to "vote for Gerrard". Bit sad really aren't they!

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Yes was me. I'm not a guardian reader but found the poll a couple of days ago. Since then it has been cyber attacked from knuckle dragging Gerrard supporters. I've been trying to explain to a few who shouldn't be allowed near keyboards that their justifications for choices are far reaching to say the least. One person's stats included how many man of the matches has Scholes won in the FA cup final ffs. How old mentally are some of these people?

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Supa

Why even bother as Scholes is miles better IMO and England have been rubbish since the day he retired. I know they did not win anything with him either but they actually could play against all the big teams and it was always very close.

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19 Sep 2013 17:59:49
Are Welbeck and Evans injured?

Welbz hasn't been involved in the last 2 games and Evans hasn't been involved at all.

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Johnny played a full game against Portugal last week for Northern Ireland. Played very well too. The scoreline does not reflect how the game went.

StevieK

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19 Sep 2013 17:32:44
Just to follow on from the Kagawa thread, I would still like to see us play the 4-2-3-1 formation that many have suggested. We have several combinations available for the "4". The "2" picks itself in Carrick and Fellaini, with Cleverley or even Jones as cover. Then there are many permutation and combinations for the forwards. My choice would be Kagawa, Rooney and Nani with Van Persie "up top". We would still have cover in all those position in the case of injuries / suspensions. Rooney, Wellbeck or Hernandez instead of RVP. Wellbeck or Young for Kagawa on the left of the "3". Zaha or Valencia for Nani on the right etc etc. Gradually bring in Januzaj plus Anderson if he can keep himself fit and we really do look in good shape. Moreover, I really do think that we have the right players to play this formation with great success.
The grass always looks greener bla bla bla, but if you look at our squad it is still very strong. I know some of the others, particularly Spurs, made several additions over the summer, but most of those are unproven in the premier league. Big names on paper maybe, but just because they cost a lot doesn't mean that they will be a success. Performances on the pitch win you games, not reputations and price tags.

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I think the most effective formation which allows Kagawa, Rooney and RVP to play is 4-3-1-2, maybe as a diamond.
I would have Carrick, Fellaini and Cleverly as the three, Kagawa as the one.
This formation would rely very heavily on width from the full backs.
If we bought a new left back and another centre mid to replace Cleverly then I think this would work really well.
The biggest problem in my opinion with Kagawa is not his lack of physicality or the pace of the premier league its our tempo. We play too slow for him to prosper. We either build slow or hit on the counter and I don't think either suits Kags

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19 Sep 2013 16:26:00
No question that Giggs goal against Arsenal was brilliant, but the cheekiest goal has to be that scored by George Best in an FA Cup match against Northampton. The goalie was bouncing the ball as they had to do in those days when George nipped in, nicked the ball around the goalie and scored
Red Setter

Sorry Red Setter but no he didn't he had just come back from a long ban and scored 6 in the game but none of them where as you described. Maybe you are thinking of the one he scored against England at Windsor park where Gordon Banks threw the ball up to kick it and George knocked it over his head and scored only for the ref to disallow it

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That's the one I was on about Kloot but it was disallowed although it shouldn't have as far as I'm aware from seeing it on tv.

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Tbh KLOOT this stinks of 'so wot rooney had a decent game, look over here how bad is this?'
I echo micks statement.

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19 Sep 2013 16:13:24
Manchester United spent £71m in 2012-13 financing the cost of the Glazer family's debt-laden takeover of the club, the latest annual accounts have disclosed. The accounts for Manchester United plc, now registered in the Cayman Islands tax haven and floated on the New York stock exchange, show the club paid £22m in a premium for refinancing the debt during the year.


The £71m finance costs take to £680m the total cost to United in interest, fees, bank charges and debt repayments of the Glazers' 2005 takeover of the club, according to Andy Green, the investment analyst who blogs on United. The £525m the American family borrowed to buy United was loaded on to the club to repay, and eight years on, despite so much interest paid, United's debt at 30 June was still £389m.

And people wonder why I am still going on about it

Believable0 Unbelievable0

No they're not. People are just wondering what good does your constant whining and insults of fellow posters accomplish

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They have bought the club with its own money ( to state the obvious)

There should be laws against it but there are not and it is looking likely that they are here to stay, we can only hope they generate enough revenue from sponsors and what not that investing in the squad is a small percentage of this revenue, cause looks like even £350 plus million(turover) is not enough to guarantee a big summer spend

Roonbest

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And you still going on about what everyone already knows accomplishes what exactly?

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19 Sep 2013 17:26:26
As unhappy as we all are with the Glazers what can we do Kloot? Seriously I want to know your master plan for removing the blood sucking leeches. If you can come up with a serious plan than i'll back you all the way.

But from where i'm sitting the only way to part the Glazers from their golden goose is to kill them or the goose. So what do you think us fans should do?

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Roonbest, there is STILL no law or Premier League rule that prevents a leveraged buyout. Ridiculous if you ask me. It's banned in Germany.

There will be plenty of cash for transfers over the next couple of years, the question remains will they prioritise other costs over the transfers?

We will see, there is always money spent, but it's large amounts spent on several players rather than one player. I would like to see us use the youth more and spend £40m on one top player.

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I agree Syd, if we could utilise the youth more we could splash out on someone for £40 million or a couple of £30 million players.

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Shappy, I think the only way the fans could force the Glazers out is by them all staying away from Old Trafford. Not just for a week or two, but for as long as it takes the Glazers pack up and go home.
That is never going to happen, so I think we are stuck with them at least in the short term.

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I recall when £40m bought the very best, then we sold Ronaldo for £80m and the money was not re-spent but banked to ensure we didn't record embarrassing losses. This summer could £40m have bought Falcao, Neymar or Bale? We changed the playing field and four years later the Glazers still haven't come to terms with the pace of change in transfer fees.

I have often expressed my thoughts on what has happened and I remain disgusted with the situation. However has the worm turned? Empty seats at the first Champions League game and not against poor opposition, I know of emails going out offering tickets to games and we all know about letters of support/explanation for our lamentable transfer efforts.
The situation may just have reached the point where tourists don't fill the seats, that people are not enthused by the appointment of Moyes or by the purchase of an Everton player not noted for exciting or expansive play, not one to whet the palate for exciting football whilst our main opposition particularly in Europe have notably strengthened.
Have the Glazers now reached tipping point where fans no longer just go no matter what rubbish the owners feed us? Have the days where they can't sell seats for the games like they can sell the commercial brand? How long will that last if it is an unsuccessful season and the seats remain empty?

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Red Man, or you could be overreacting slightly and the reason there were gaps on Tuesday was because it was pissing down with rain and those seats at the front are not properly sheltered?

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Red Man

I'm not sure they care about empty seats. The plan seems to be to float and get their money back. I think United has always been a long term cash cow for them. Sod the fans, maximise the earning. Much as I think KLOOT can be an arse sometimes he is entirely right on this one. It may be pointless to continually go on about it but we should never forget the hundreds of millions of pounds spent on servicing the debt

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Shappy - I was saying in the months leading up to them taking over it would be the only way to get rid of them!

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19 Sep 2013 15:10:02
hello lads.

just to inform you all that NICK POWELL will feature in Europa league fixture. good luck to lad and looking forward to see his progress overall.

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He should get some good experience at Wigan. Playing in the Europa league is also a big plus.

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19 Sep 2013 14:58:45
Shinji Kagawa is one of the most gifted players in our squad, but I think people like jred are starting to be proven right in that he doesn't quite fit into David Moyes style of play. Unless he was to play instead of Rooney which is starting to look more and more unlikely.

Now hopefully he shows his class and he adapts to another position and proves himself. Unfortunately I don't see this happening no matter how much I want it to happen.

If not then maybe next summer it will be time for Shinji to move on. Now a potential swap deal with Dortmunds Gundogan has been mooted and although that would be a great deal for us, it still leaves us short of a creative spark in the final third. Finding a player who can make a difference in the final third in those tight games is very hard to find.

Yes we need someone for midfield and Gundogan would be perfect, but there are other good alternatives who could become just as good as Gundogan but would be available for far less. Players such as Jordy Clasie and Koke could prove to be great signings for our midfield.

Yet if you look for those players who could make a big difference to getting that winning goal in those tight european away games then your either left paying a fortune or taking a huge gamble on either a young player or for someone unproven.

With this in mind if Shinji doesn't force his way into the team this season then I would look to swap him with Marco Reus of Dortmund.

A team of DDG, Rafael, Evans, Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Fellaini, Nani or Valencia, Rooney, Reus and RvP

Looks able to beat any team in europe. Especially if we can replace Evra with someone like Daley Blind and maybe bring in Jordy Clasie to be Carricks long term replacement.

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Although I like Kagawa and think he's a great player I also don't see him being used properly and would like to see him exchanged with Reus (and cash) if we could.

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Shappy why do you always want to bring in the average players? Clasie isn't that good, neither is Blind or Koke. The only player I would want that you have mentioned is Reus. I see Kagawa being a regular starter on the left hand side and he will make it his own by cutting inside like Silva and similar players. If we can add Gundogan, Coentrao and a youngsters like Barkley or Hughes then that's the way to go forward.

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Shappy mate I like your post usually but to me it seems like you've judged him purely on the last game. Yes I know he's not a true winger, you could say he looked slightly uncomfortable out of position at times even though he's played there loads of times with Dortmund but mainly Japan. He still needs to get his match fitness and sharpness up with a good run of games.

Like you said he's a quality player, he's relatively versatile considering he can play as a support striker, attacking midfield, on the left or right and while he can't start in a deep midfield position he doesn't look uncomfortable while dropping deep and dictating play.

My point is that when he gets a considerable run of games and gets his fitness/form up he's one of those players that can float about the pitch giving more freedom to the likes of Rooney, Rvp, Fellaini etc. Really would not like to see him go anywhere.

I don't see why we can't buy either Rues or Gundogan without including Kagawa in the deal. Biggest teams in the world needs a host of superstars not just a starting XI of them, look at Barca for example.

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Rooney will be first choice playing behind the main striker this season and that is Kagawa's position. So Kagawa's playing time at MU will be limited as long as Rooney is here. I said in August that I think Kagawa could leave this summer or next and I think he will. Jred said the other day that Kagawa lacks the defensive side of his game and that is spot on. Although players like Pienaar and Osman are Kagawa's size, they are better defensively. Kagawa is a luxury player.

Kagawa is a very good player, but he is used to a different style of football and neither SAF or Moyes is playing the style that suits him. Many of us believed SAF would bring in the players needed to accommodate Kagawa this summer, but he left. Players like Thiago would have been on the same wavelength, but Carrick and Fellaini are slow builders and completely different to Kagawa. I am not sure Kags will want to be a bit part player and I can see him leaving this summer.

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To be fair, it was his first game for the club in a while. That said, I thought he showed some great touches.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him start against city.

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Sam, we have to start with Welbeck against City if fit. I do not see Kagawa starting in many of the big fixtures this season unless someone is injured. Welbeck is fitter, stronger and better defensively. If Welbeck is fit I think he is first choice for the left. Whilst Rooney is here and playing so well, Kagawa is second choice as a 2nd striker. I think Kagawa will be very useful this season and will get many goals and assists, but I think he will play most of his games as sub and against smaller teams.

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Anderson, Berbatov, Kagawa & Nani are all luxury players IMO. They are great attacking players, but do lack that defensive quality. IMO the EPL is not the best league for luxury players, but some do adapt over time when they have others doing the hard defensive work for them. Nani and Anderson have adapted their defensive game over time, but they are far more useful when they are staying in a more advanced position. Berbatov has adapted his game over time too. Kagawa would be able to adapt over time, but is he happy to be back-up? Or played out of his best position?

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19 Sep 2013 17:23:23
Fresh mate clearly you don't watch much football other than United games. If you Koke who was one of Atleticos best players last season when he helped then finish 3rd in la liga and they were unlucky not to finish 2nd. He is an excellent young player who'll be one of the best midfielders in the world in 4/5 years time.

Clasie I agree would be slightly more of a gamble due to him not having experiance in one of europes top leagues. But he is as highly rated as players such as Adam Maher and Tonny Vilhena by the Dutch for a good reason. He has an excellent passing range and although he isn't tue biggest he gets stuck in like a pitbull, he has sublime technique like all dutch youngster and has a fanatstic reading of the game.

Daley Blind is considered as the dutch youngster who has made the most improvement in the last couple of years and is considered to the Netherlands first choice LB for a reason despite the competition from players like Buttner and Jetro Wilems. He is cobsidered as one of Ajaxs best players. He is a solid defender who also has one of the best pass completions in in his league and averages over 2 key passes a match which for a LB is superb. The only thing he hasn't got is electric pace, but his positioning is so good that it rarely is a problem.

If you don't have a reasonably detailed knowledge of these players then I would advise you look them up abit before you brand a talent proffessional as "average".

Ozwald, I think Kagawa is a fatastic player. But his best position is behind the main striker, while Rooney is at the club Kagawa won't get in ahead of him. This means he will be shunted out to the left wing, he hasn't got electric pace you would normally associate with a winger, nor does he have the defensive side of his game needed to cover for Evra on the left hand side. While he plays there we will be very open to attacks down that side as with Kagawa tucking in and rarely tracking the runner and Evra playing very far forward and not doing his defensive work our left flank will be wide open.

Like I said I hope Kagawa proves me wrong but it looks like Moyes favours Rooney and Welbeck over him due to their pace and physicality. I'm not saying Kagawa can't be great with us, but i'm starting to doubt that Moyes sees him as vital a player as I do. Which is a shame, imo if Rooney signs a contract extension before next summer then that will see Kagawa leave, if Rooney doesn't sign a new contract then Rooney will be sold and then Kagawa may get to take his best position next season. However I don't see Kagawa having a long term future here under Moyes unfortunately.

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Syd, you're probably right with regards to Welbeck. Moye's seems to have a lot of faith in him, and he does offer better defensive qualities compared with Kagawa.

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Jred's point does look to have some truth behind it but I still contest we need to give Kagawa time. He's still not had a good run and the other day was his first game for us in a while. IF he cannot adapt to the LAM position then I agree Reus is the perfect replacement - he's more direct and puts defenders on the back foot constantly.

I'd love to have an on form Kagawa playing no. 10 for us but if Rooney stays fit and on form there's nobody better in the EPL in that role.

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One thing for sure is that Moyes had the chance to sell Kagawa this summer as there was no shortage of admirers, but he chose to keep him. People need to remember this is a squad game and he will still have a big part to play whether he is first choice or not.

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HB
We seem to be using the lw position to also make up the numbers in cm. The lw is coming in to the middle and evra pushes up.
Welbeck plays it well as he has the speed and athletic attributes to effectively play two position ( lw & hole) I'm not sure kagawa has.
I think kagawa is more a link man who floats through through a game in a free role.
I'm a fan of kags but I don't think he is a moyes type as I have said before but hopefully he adds aspects to his game and forces his way in .
I would like kags to do well, I would of liked us to buy two creative midfielders and play 4-2-3-1 and play open attacking football, however I think we will be more solid than attacking and will play 4-4-2

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I've read this thread several times and tbh, it is right up there with the worst

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AJH

Why don't you just say it like it is? :)

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Jred

we need 2 winger/strkers and and a creative midfielder for kagawa to play in the hole. In reality we are 3 players short and he will be seeing very little playing time as long as rooney is here.

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Shappy

You should be a chief scout mate and being dead serious. I agree with most of what you said and what I don't agree with is because I don't know the players and have not sen enough of them :).

Koke and Maher for me are both very good players and whilst everyone is talking about hughes and berkeley, I would take those 2 all day.

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19 Sep 2013 14:32:17
I just wanted so say well done to all the Eds for all their great work on the site. And its great to see Ed02 back. I have been a reader for a couple of years, but only registered to post for the last month. All the Eds do a great job and get through an incredible amount of posts, especially on and around deadline day. So thanks and well done to all, and its great to be a member of such a good site.

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19 Sep 2013 13:49:29
Not United related, but a question that's bugging me.

If the World Cup is moved to Winter in Qatar, does that mean that Qatar will single-handedly change club football forever?

Think about. The Leagues worldwide, would have to switch their program to fit in. So, football would start in summer and end in early winter? (please correct me if I'm wrong). Then the WC. Then the league would start up again in the summer.

Once it's been switched once to accommodate the WC, its done forever - you cannot have two seasons played back-to-back. Am I wrong here?

RED_SKY {Ed002's Note - It is not as simple as that.}

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19 Sep 2013 14:31:15
Very good point that I hadn't even thought about! Could you divulge any further Ed02? {Ed002's Note - I don't have the time right now to explain a lot of the complexities. Maybe next week.}

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19 Sep 2013 16:23:28
World cup is over 2-3 weeks normally right? maybe 2-3 before that to get the squad together and working.
So 6 weeks tops, depending on how far teams get, will be needed for the squad to be away from thier clubs.

I'd think that there would be a shift in start and finish dates for that season and then a gradual shift back for the next 2 or 3 seaons to soak up the fixtures that would normaly be played in that period.
Either that or all these rich oil tycoons who bribed Fifa can pay for every team to have air conditioned training facilities and stadiums, trouble is then everyone would get ill!.

Imo the bloody thing shouldn't be played there anyway, next thing we will have to play in Antarctica 'cos it's an emerging market and they can bribe the reps with the new oil money they have.

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I would have thought there would be a whole lot of contractual issues for players, club staff and so on not to mention the contracts with television companies and sponsors. I think they will need to pretty much move countries. Or Qatar has enough money to put roofs over all stadiums with air-conditioning if at all possible. Then you would have to ensure the countries could also train in there as it would be too difficult again because of the weather/temperature situation.

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Exactly, they should be stripped of it.

They lied on their application form.

Can you hold it during summer by air-conditioning the stadiums? Yes.

Can you ensure youll have a set of ready-to-go stadiums in time? Yes.

Now they're saying both aren't going to happen. Strip 'em, they lied and shouldn't be holding it.

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I think it is completely outrageous and FIFA have shown themselves to be money grabbing leeches. For the biggest sport in the world to be run by such rank amateurs is desperately sad

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19 Sep 2013 12:24:55
As the Rooney debate continued now for the last few days, I was just wondering whether people think we play better with him in the team, or whether they would prefer the likes of kagawa or Hernandez instead?

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Not really sure we have given Kagawa a decent go in Rooney's position but with Rooney there it would be hard to envisage better if honest

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For me kagawa still hasn't adapted to United or the EPL.
Hernandez is a top player but never quite looks the same when starting a match as opposed to coming of the bench.
Rooney is the better player imo brings more to the team, if Rooney plays well the whole team does.
Rooney & Rvp could be as good a front 2 as you will get in Europe,

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Jase Rooney in the team every time mate, especially in his current form. If Ronaldo and Messi are in a street of their own class then surely Wayne is closer to that street than anyone else, if not in it.

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Kagawa is nowhere near the level of Wayne Rooney.
I would never start Kagawa in front of Rooney, Rooney is on another level.
He score goals, he creates goals, he works hard and tackles back, there isn't really a weakness to his game.
Kagawa just doesn't fit into our way of playing and in my opinion the premiership is just to fast and physical for him.
I lost count of the amount of times he was bundled off the ball on Tuesday night due to his lack of strength.
The game passed him by, he really struggled to keep up with the play and I don't think that you will see Kagawa at United next season, I think he will be moved on.
Maybe we can do some kind of swap deal with a player from Dortmund. who knows?

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Dnt know wot game u watched simmo, kags was decent, for his first game back

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Thanks guys, tend to agree with all of you really, in saying we play better with him in the team. Particularly Jreds point about the whole team playing better when Rooney does. Also pardoes point that kagawa hasn't really been given a proper go in the team.

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Redman. are you serious. why did Moyes pull him off then?
He made one decent pass and got put through on goal once. That's all he did for the whole time he was on.
LOL. what game were you watching mate?

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19 Sep 2013 16:30:03
I'd play Kagawa from the left and Valencia or Nani on the right. Once Adnan matures a fluid 4231 featuring RVP, Rooney, Kagawa and Adnan will be decent and with great options from the bench.

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Simmo, Kagawa was always going to be substituted as it's his first game back. Kagawa for me had a decent game, but he is not a left winger and he struggled when he had to go deep to collect the ball. He's a 2nd striker and whilst Rooney is here he will be first choice for the hole and on this form I would play him there too. Rooney in current form has to play and RvP is a certainty. So first choice has to be Rooney and RvP no question.

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Sydney

I agree with everything you say apart from Kagawa having a decent game. He did a couple of nice passes, apart from that his touch was poor and he lost the ball to many times, even his passing was sloppy.
But yes I agree, Roony has to play along side RVP

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Simmo yea I am serious buddy, u really think in his first start back this season moyes was going to play him all game? Leave off, i'm not saying he was amazing but considering all the travelling and lack of game time he's had I was quite pleased with his performance in general.

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I do worry that Kagawa will struggle to adapt to our style of play, however, people are too quick to right him off just yet. Tuesday night was his 1st start for us in ages and he did good and bad things. He was always going to be subbed though IMO as he hadn't played much and we always tend to replace at least one winger/AM.

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Simmo, towards the end Kagawa did start to fade so was rightfully taken off. I enjoy watching his touch and the way he plays. He is a quality player.

Powell is getting some very good playing time at Wigan and he could be a player who could do the job of Welbeck. Cannot believe this lad is just 19.

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Blimey, I find myself agreeing with Simmo! Kags had great touches but was regularly pushed off the ball and often looked a little lost. I love him but let's take our Kags tinted glasses off people.

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19 Sep 2013 12:13:13
Many pundits have written off united for PL title. Assuming let it stand who do united fans wish to win the PL.
As a united fan I wish arsenal to win if we dont.

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Swansea lol

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I despise all of our rivals.

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Arsenal for me. Great football, and sadly, I like Wenger. A decent honourable man who has taken serious sh1t from people not fit to lace his shoes

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19 Sep 2013 12:07:06
Forget all the transfer nonsense and the Rooney stuff, this is a much more serious subject, has Albert retired? on saturday he was sat in the stands next to Fergie and his assistant Alex Wylie was in charge of kit man duties.

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He had our official suit wit crest an all on so me thins he still there

CAIN

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19 Sep 2013 10:26:21
Read an article about potential future targets, it seems as though Moyes may try to snap up a few English targets in Barkley, Hughes and Shaw. This would be three fantastic signings for the future of this club. Add to this Powell and Jones we have the best young English crop of players in the country. As well as the likes of Januzaj, Henriquez and already regulars De Gea, Rafael etc and this club is in great shape!

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I agree Fresh! the three of them would be great signings.

The biggest problem though would be the cost. I reckon 30m for Barkley; 15m for Hughes and 25m for Shaw.

That's a seventy million pound outlay. The cost of young English players is far too much and does explain why many clubs bring in oversea's players for half the price.

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The biggest problem would be Shaw he is a staunch Chelsea fan so if he was on the market Chelsea would definitely move for him IMO. He is a talent no doubt about that, classy.

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If we got them now I think Hughes is valued at £10 million, Barkley at £20 and Shaw at £15 million. Potentially if we spent on Hughes and Shaw in January and loaned them back we could then get Barkley and Gundogan in the summer. That would be my plan anyway. Oh, and bring in Coentrao. We would then have Coentrao and Shaw for left back at the start of the season. {Ed007's Note - Southampton would laugh at any bid of £15m for Luke Shaw.}

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Good young players but if we had Barkley and Powell in the squad there'd be no need to get Hughes too. A nice blend of experience is needed.

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19 Sep 2013 03:50:42
question for the ads

Can any one shed some light on what was the Rooney situation this past summer. Did he ask to leave and still looking for a move and is the club planning on extending him or moving him eventually when they have secured a replacement?

Personally, it is hard for me to believe SAF would plain old lie on national TV as he bleeds United and would not come up with such a statement knowing the consequences of putting it out in the public domain. {Ed044's Note - This was covered extensively over the summer, why open it up again?}

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I don't think we will never know the full story about what happened. The thing is players say what's best for them. So at the moment if he's angling for a new contract he will not say anything in public until he gets it. And then he will come out and say "I never asked to leave", however if he's sold in the summer he will say "This was is my dream move and I wanted to leave last year". For me Hargreaves said it all when he left for city when he said "they treated me like a lab rat" or something to that extent, I think there was no truth in that, and he only said in an attempt to endear himself to the city fans.

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19 Sep 2013 07:04:25
Massive respect for the underdog teams yesterday, Basel for winning against a clueless chelsea and Celtic for literally outplaying Milan at San Siro

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I didn't manage to see any of the games last but pleased for arsenal, laughed at chelsea, and from what I've read Celtic were unfortunate.
Surprised to hear klopp being sent to the too as I didn't see him having a viscous side lol!

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I have a soft spot for Dortmund and watched the game. Klopp went mental at the fourth official, epic. On par with a father confronted by his daughter's rapist. To be fair, the ref was pretty intimidated by the local crowd, very lenient on some reckless tackles by the home side.

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Mooseman - that comment is brutal, well funny.

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19 Sep 2013 02:35:12
I was going to post this last weekend but never got round to it, it is possibly my favourite quote of all time:

"If I had to choose between dribbling past 5 players and scoring from 40 yards or sleeping with Miss World it would be a hard choice. Thankfully I've done both"
George Best

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. scoring from 40 yards AT ANFIELD.

Sorry

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I think the best quote was

'I spent a lot of money on booze, women and fast cars, the rest I just squandered away'

Classic

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On a similar note, I love the story of how Bestie was in a hotel with a Miss World, there were empty bottles of champagne and £20 notes littering the floor. He rang for room service and when it arrived, the boy delivering it looked around the room and said, Mr Best, where did it all go wrong'?

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Or when room service comes into his hotel room later in his career with a beautiful woman in his bed, champagne and money all over the bed, the man then says "George, where did it all go wrong?"

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