Manchester United Banter Archive December 01 2013

 

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01 Dec 2013 18:07:51
During the week we played as a unit with pace through the middle of the park and Kagawa was everywhere, we broke quickly and created chances.

The manager of Manchester United needs to be decisive but above all make the correct decisions. Kagawa showed us what he could do in mid week but today our manager changed our system back to relying on the two in midfield yet the key one was bringing Welbeck in. It upset our balance and Welbeck was a wasted player that dragged us back limiting our shape. It was a poor decision and one that meant we didn't win, another draw another game of scraping around but most important the managers decision was the wrong one again.

On decision making he also brought Young on when we wanted to win the game, why? Why did we sign Januzaj on a five year deal then leave him out? But the biggest question is why when we are struggling in midfield do we have a midfield player who cost £27m sat on the bench? The manager chose to buy him but he isn't good enough to get in our very ordinary midfield so what is he going to do if we buy any decent midfield players? It appears Moyes has wasted £27m and you have to wonder who he will see as good in the next windows. Will the Fellaini decision affect Moyes decision making going forward because it was clearly his decision to buy him?

Today we should have used the energy and pace gained from midweek, the decisiveness and confidence to go out and attack Spurs yet our manager changed direction sufficiently to break that, the Welbeck decision baffling and the Ashley Young one shocking. We have no momentum in the league and what is happening is the thing many feared at the beginning of the season, difficult to beat but not decisive enough to win and that defines champions.

Credit to Rooney today, where would we be if we had sold him as a few wanted to, and that is one credit to Moyes but Fellaini is at the other end of the scale. I have long suspected City would win it and our challenge will be to get in the top four.

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It's getting old now but it's all down to cm, that's the engine that sets the pace and tempo get that sorted the rest of team will be fine .
Rooney and Toni both good today

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Couldn't agree more. Good post. Problem is moyes is making wrong decisions every week. That really isn't good enough.
When I posted earlier in season about city buying all the good players, a lot of posters said they were wasting their money.
I'm afraid the only waste of money is moyes appointment and the purchase of fellaini.

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Yeah, Nomidfield, because SAF never dropped a single point against Spurs. Oh, wait.

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StevieK

The problem is we are dropping points to too many teams that we certainly didn't under SAF. I sense we have just a slightly increased negative attitude from the top and it is bringing draws

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02 Dec 2013 13:31:12
Maybe the negative attitude from some fans has seeped through.

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Mr E

Attitude and direction comes from the top

The lack of verve is a result of the percentage football we are playing and that comes from the manager

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What teams are these, Red Man?

City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Southampton? I'll give you Cardiff, but SAF never got to play them in the league, so they don't really count.

I get your point, but don't fall into the trap of looking back with rose-tinted glasses, just to prove your argument.

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StevieK

West Brom at home? Real S away, where we are too timid to grab the game.

SAF knew what was needed to win Safety first Moyes doesn't. I don't have rose to tinted specs as far as SAF is concerned as I have supported long long before he arrived.

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Did we not throw away a big lead against WBA last season?

I'm sorry mate, but Utd dropped points against all these teams, and more. In the league, and in Europe.

It's not just a new thing under Moyes. It looks like people are using anything to try and beat him.

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StevieK

We threw away a lead at West Brom but that was after we had won the league and it didn't matter as much. I recall we beat West Brom 2 nil at home when it mattered.

You defend him too much

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SAF's last game, and you think it didn't matter?

You say I defend him too much. I like to think of it as acting like an adult, rather than spoilt kids, and giving someone a chance to do their job.

looking long-term, rather than with a knee-jerk reaction.

We give our managers a chance. Otherwise we would be QPR.

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SAFs last game had a lot of emotion and distraction around it.

Moyes has a lot to prove having been appointed without the necessary experience to do the job.

You forget we gave quite a few managers a chance as you put it and they were not good enough. How many of the top clubs would have appointed Moyes?

I want him to succeed as I did with McGuiness, OFarrell, The Doc, Sexton and Atkinson but there was a bigger challenge after SAF and someone didn't check Moyes CV properly.

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Red Man, you and I are both old enough to remember the so-called fans shouting for Fergie's head at the start.

It wouldn't surprise me, if it's the same lot calling for Moyes' head now.

How can we honestly judge a man before he gets a fighting chance at moulding his own team?

All the people on here stating that Moyes took over a title-winning team, are the same one's telling us that that team were the worst Utd team in years.

So by their own logic, it follows that Moyes IS starting at a disadvantage of some sort. They can't have it all ways.

I do like to stress the positives, rather than coming on ranting after every bad result, but I'm not blind either. I know there are problems needing addressed.

Let the guy have a chance to do it, and if he doesn't succeed after he's put his own stamp on it, then so be it.

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StevieK

Understand and my problem us that to have confidence in Moyes you look at his record, his CV, like those sensible ones did with SAF when he arrived. Thing is Moyes doesn't have the reassuring factors on his CV like SAF did and Moyes decisions so far, Fellaini for example, are already concerning. SAF had to boot out the drinkers but I had personally seen their drinking bouts so agreed with him there. Moyes is a major risk

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01 Dec 2013 17:52:00
A point at WHL isn't the end of the world. It's the performance that winds me up though, especially off the back of a dominant 5-0'er in Germany this week. Difference is, Leverkusen simply sat off us and gave us space whereas in the Premier League, that doesn't happen. Under pressure, we're a different team altogether.

- Leaky, unreliable defence
- No creativity whatsoever
- No bite in CM
- No speed or urgency to us for the most part

This is sadly becoming a running theme though. We seem to repeating the same crap after every game, even the ones we've won in the league.

Without RVP, Rooney is our only goal threat. If he gets injured, we are in for some serious problems.

We'll drop points midweek, too, IMO. Everton are a solid unit with a real beast of a CF - our defence is going to struggle.

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01 Dec 2013 17:14:20
Paul Scholes has obviously got a new phone and hasn't told anyone his number!

Cleverley is more frustrating than Nani IMO, it's like his creativity is decreasing every game. Jones didn't have the best of games, but then again a CB played in midfield is not really going to work against opposition with top quality midfielders.

Positives from the match were that we played some great first touch football in the first half, and that Rooney is still playing on another level, and can still produce Scholes-esk passes on a daily basis.

We really need Carrick, RvP and Rafael back.

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01 Dec 2013 17:05:09
At this rate, I would either find the "elixir of life" for Ryan Giggs or terminate Powell's loan right away and call him back. I know he is a Number 10 per say, but atleast knows how to use the ball. We really need someone in our midfield who can actually use the ball, run with it, pass and move forward.

Any outside shout for Scholsey to come back may be?

Deeps.

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I honestly think Cleverly is at this time a squad player, at most.

I really don't think Cabaye would be a bad idea, I've said this before, he would walk into our first team at the moment. At least he can sweep passes around and miss out the 'middle-man', I think he would improve our play this season just allowing us to pick up the pace and exploit space slightly more effectively (I don't think we move the ball fast enough). i'm not saying he would be a permanent fix, obviously come summer we need someone world class.
I think he could do a job for us until then and he shouldn't be too expensive (any ideas on what he could cost Ed?).

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01 Dec 2013 15:27:07
You can now get a maximum 97 points this season if you were to win all your 25 remaining games, which is unrealistic for any team.

The last 2 seasons you have got 89 points but I think this year 85 plus would be enough to be champions.

My question is do you feel this UTD team can get 63 points from the 75 possible? Or do you feel its a case of accepting you need to rebuild in Jan and the summer ready to bounce back next season and put this season down to being one where Moyes had to find out about who he inherited that needs keeping and who needs clearing out.

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Hello,
Personally I think the league is a push now however we are not out of it.
Tbh I feel we all realise we need a bit of a rebuild in midfield, that and LB are our real weaknesses atm hopefully we can rectify that in jan while staying in contention

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I think the league is beyond us although everyone else seems to be making a mess of it (apart from Arsenal). I think this is. A season who amoyes decided what/who he wants and if we can pick up a cup then that's a bonus. If I'm honest, if it can't be us, I'd be happy for Arsenal to win it. I know you all hate us but I have a soft spot for you.

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I (especially after the summer fiasco ) thought top 4 and rebuild, I really enjoyed todays game, we played as a team and played some good stuff.

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I don't hate UTD AJH, your the team I long to beat because let's face it I'm 51 and it ain't happened in my life time, OK that's an exaggeration but feels like it sometimes :-)
I think you have done amazing things with a lot of players who will properly be wearing Sunderland Stoke Hull or clubs like them shirts next season, but they have premier league medals and full credit to AF for doing that.
I think Moyes will have you back competing again next season with players who look more UTD worthy.
Cleverly Young and Welbeck? England have limited to choice but you have all it takes to attract the best in the world

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Gunner62, I don't think 63 from 75 is feasible with this squad and Moyes baffling decision making.

we need a massive squad overhaul and that's going to take at least a couple of seasons and then probably another season to bed in. i'm talking about 12 players being replaced in that time.

however, moyes hasn't exactly filled me with confidence he can do this by spending 27 mill on Fellaini and by keep playing young when we have januzaj who should be getting as much game time as he can handle.

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01 Dec 2013 14:56:27
if fergie was onthe bench today, even though we are not playing well we would have won that match today! Don't ask me how or why we just would have!

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No we wouldn't because ferguson would have sold Rooney and our season would already be over!

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How and why? We have had some draws at spurs over the last few years.

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I agree you would have too, the big question is how did he win so much with these players.
Only now do we really see how good he was, you can't blame Moyes for not being AF, who could be

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01 Dec 2013 14:38:26
We play with Kagawa in the hole and win 5 nil producing our best performance of the season. What does Moyes take from that win, we should go back to 4-4-2 with Kagawa on the wing and 'goal machine' Danny Welbeck up front. So our fast link up play was nonexistant, Kagawa looked lost, and Welbeck's single contribution was to fall over the keeper's hand. And then bringing on Young to add insult to injury, at least he didn't have enough time to muster up a dive this time.

Cleverley showed what a joke he is again: can't tackle, can't shoot, can't create a chance. But how embarrassed must Felaini feel that a one trick pony like Cleverley is picked over him, that's £27.5m well spent.

On the plus side Rooney was fantastic today and looks like he's really enjoying his football again, so credit to Moyes for that at least.

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Kagawa played in the hole for the 1st half actually. But there was no one to pass to him and link up with from the midfield. Giggs did that perfectly mid week and he went forward after passing to Kagawa to take 1or 2 players with him to open up the play for Kagawa. On the other hand today there was Mr Cleverly who didn't know how to pass forward and even if Kagawa came back to pick up the ball, Cleverly went back even further which added more pressure on the forwards. Moyes actually did ok to bring on Young and Nani so Kagawa could move back to midfield but he did that a little late. It's not Moyes's fault that our wingers are garbage( well ofcourse he could have bought one in the summer). No Janujaz in the team did surprise me though.

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First, Kagawa played in the hole for about the first 10 minutes then Welbeck went up front and Kagawa was out wide for the rest of the match where he was ineffective. Second, Young was brought on for Kagawa so he didn't move back into midfield.

Yes, the absence of Giggs made a big difference (how depressing is that, a 40 year old is our most creative midfielder). But the biggest difference was playing Welbeck instead of Nani. In the last game Nani stuck out wide allowing Kagawa space in the middle and giving us a clear shape, set up for fast paced football. This time Both Welbeck and Kagawa kept drifting inside meaning that Evra was often the only player on the left side. This meant that we never stretched Spurs or exploited Walker's defensive weaknesses. There was absolutely no reason to change tactics from the Bayer game other than Moyes is completely wedded to idea of a straight forward 4-4-2.

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Danny is right. The substitutions were shambles.
I'm not Anderson's best admirer, but why not bring him on instead of young?
We buy a player for £27m and he can't even make the first team in the weakest area we have in the team. In any other business, if someone had made such a monumental cockup in buying the most useless midfielder for 27m, then he would have got the sack before he could say "wig".
What does kagawa have to do to be given a chance in his proper position? When a team wins 5-0 then why make any changes? We found a good balance on Wednesday and we looked dangerous, so we being welbeck in!

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Danny is right, it was all a bit odd. Not sure why we took Kagawa off when he looked dangerous. Kagawa's started to look the real deal but it does feel like DM is not really a fan. I would have played the same team as Wednesday - they were flying and confidence would have been sky high.

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Sorry about that. I was awaiting for something magical to happen in the last 10 minutes that I didn't realize that Young came on for Kagawa. In the first half whenever Kagawa got the ball he was in a central position though. Wellbeck on the other hand was all over the park. I don't think Nani could have done something extraordinary if he was played from the start. I still don't understand the omission of Zaha even when our wingers are this pathetic. He'll be faster than Valencia and he can't cross any worse than Valencia. He might give us a whole new dimension on counter attacks. Janujaz was maybe rested because Moyes doesn't want him to be under added pressureaagainst bigger teams. But Janujaz and Zaha should get a few starts together against lesser oppositions. They can't be any worse than Valencia/Wellbeck/Young.

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01 Dec 2013 14:36:18
Would rather have seen Giggs come on instead of Young. A point is better than nothing but we could have played a lot better, Cleverley I didn't feel did much, Kagawa showed some promise as did Valencia but other than Rooney I thought Phil Jones and Chris Smalling were the only ones giving it a go. In all fairness Jones should have went for the ball which led to Walker's free kick but I really felt he controlled the centre of our midfield incredibly well. Evra was quite concerning for me, I know he's getting older but he showed very little pace or defensive ability at all, he was playing catch up a lot of the time. Even going forward he wasn't amazing today. I'm sure we will beat Newcastle though. Got a good few 3 pointers coming up!

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Giggs can't play every game at this age if he has to perform well in them and thank god Moyes also understands that. If he plays continuously and is poor then we'll be the 1st to shout out for his retirement. Cleverly is hopeless so there's no point talking about him.
I don't know how you saw that Valencia was ok. He was tormenting Vertongen with his pace but all that came to nothing as he couldn't even put a single decent cross all game. Smalling again can't put a good cross in even though he is good defensively. This means our right wings was ineffective. Jones got 1 opportunity to cross and he showed us why he is a good cover for right back.

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Unfortunately can't bring subs on that aren't on the bench Chris, no giggs today.

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Really GDS2? Oh man haha sorry I only joined the game 5 minutes in! and raph, what I meant to say was I saw promising signs from Jones, he was good at times in the centre showing just how lackluster cleverley is. as for Valencia, I thought he was good at stretching the defence. We do miss Rafael though.

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I'm with you on Jones and agree he was ok today. He had only one opportunity to cross in the ball and he did that very nicely. Smallings crosses in today's match and also in the midweek couldn't beat the 1st man and that's why I think Jones is a better option on right back than smalling. But we are so short on midfielders that we can't play him there.

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Get Scholes back! I shouldn't say that really because it will probably happen. I don't expect us to spend a daft amount of money on overvalued players but we really do need quality additions. I'd be quite happy to see Morgan Schneiderlin in midfield, I think he's massively underrated. I won't go on and on but there are many areas I'd try to strengthen :P

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01 Dec 2013 14:22:54
5 points dropped in the last two games. I wouldn't say we are struggling, we are only 9 points away, but that gap needs to be 5 at the most at the turn of the year. I can see another nail biting end to the season that goes down to the last day. Hopefully we will be one of the 2 or 3 teams in the mix.

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No mathematical genius are ya Fresh two games max of 6 points 2 draws 2 points got? 4 points dropped

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Fresh! we've drawn the last 2 games, you might wanna rethink your maths. As I said yesterday, there are plenty more slip ups on all sides to come.

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Fresh mate, I think the league is beyond us this year. We are too inconsistent and DM is fiddling a lot. If we click we can beat anyone so hopefully a cup (or 2)

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01 Dec 2013 13:56:40
Bringing on nani and young when u need a goal is just the wrong call all day long. Why wasnt januzaj on the bench? We were very poor in midfield and shouldve had 3 in there. Cleverly for dembele's goal was laughable. Spurs shouldve won that game comfortably. A horrible defensive mistake and a penalty ffs

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I think you mean Sandro's goal;)

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Ha ha well spotted! Do not know why I wouldve said dembele!

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01 Dec 2013 13:54:09
90mins and 2 shots on target 1 of them being a penalty and the other being a gift by them I'm sorry but its pathetic. Also the amount of fouls we gave away near the area none of us could of complained had they pinched a winner. We really needed a win today so very disappointed with that result 9 points behind.

On a more positive note its a tricky game which is out of the way but we cannot afford many more slip ups. Totally gutted

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Damon

It wasn't pathetic. We dominated for long periods but sadly, as so often this season, didn't take advantage. Pathetic is a ridiculous word

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01 Dec 2013 13:33:31
Evra utter garbage today. And why do we keep giving away so many free kicks away on the edge of our area. Terrible defending. Left back and two centre MIDs are so obviously needed.

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01 Dec 2013 13:22:48
I think the best signing Moyes could make would be to get Beckham back as a coach to teach our players how to cross a ball truly shocking today how can valencia be a winger with his awful crossing ability he beats his man stands there until they catch him again and then drives his cross into the defenders feet so we get a throw he has done this at least 6 times so far today!!

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01 Dec 2013 02:09:06
Interesting stats I read today
The average distance the ball travels from a goal kick restart in the EPL is 58 yards
And the average distance traveled from ball in keepers hand is 54 yards compared to
spain 31 and 24 yards
germany 36 and 27
italy 34 and 32

There needs to be a fundamental change in our youth coaching policies from under 8 upwards in order to catch up with the real super powers of European football.

I see the prem slowly changing with the likes of Southampton everton swansea and all those above us in the league starting to play the ball more consistently effectively and confidently from the back

If we do sign the 2 world class midfielders we all want we must allow them to get on the ball and not bypass them by giving away possession away from the keeper. History tells us the prem is won with the most aggressive combative midfield which contains an english (or english style) core (viera petit excluded although they had world class ability along with traditional prem requirements) such as keane scholes, lampard essien barry millner ya ya, ince, . let's be honest if arsenal had had a roy keane style player in their CM they would have won at least five trophy's in last 8 years instead of none but I think better coaching at the highest level and rule changes means we are going to see a change to the prem style of play
So if we did have the much lauded midfield pair of herrera and gundogan or vidal we have to change our whole philosophy or we will never see them at their best as per kagawa. we must play through midfield not give them a fifty fifty from a keepers punt. or these much lauded players will fail like veron did. foreign strikers wingers and defenders have all done well but not too many CMs have prem medals.

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That stat really tells you nothing… De Gea doesn't give the ball away any more than your average keeper in La Liga. You're missing the point, the reason the midfield is bypassed is because THERE IS NO MIDFIELD. If there was movement, dynamism and energy in our midfield a lot of our other on field problems would also dissipate. Pressure would be taken from the defence and the attack allowing them to operate closer to their full potential. Really we need a whole new midfield, at least 3 or 4 players, and 1 or 2 world class at that. I really do not think Cabaye would be a bad call in January if it were possible?

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Covey, just backing up your point with memories of how schmeichel used to set up so many attacks because as soon as he had the ball we had players on the move who he could pass it to.

how many goals did we score from quick breaks which originated from the keeper?

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