Manchester United Banter Archive March 01 2014

01 Mar 2014 21:46:09
After arsenal result today and the horrible run of fixtures in march they look like our best chance to qualify for champs lge. this of course depends on utd going on a winning run. I feel this would be possible if moyes was less cautious in his approach. The team picked vs olympiakos was setup not to loose rather than trying to win. Wud love to see us play same formation that we had vs palace and go for it.
I feel this best suits our current players and gives us best chance.
Will moyes change his style? Hope so but sadly doubt it

I agree I've been saying for weeks to my mates that we have more chance of catching arsenal than liverpool everyone knew arsenal would bottle it like every year if we can get on a run we can catch arsenal

Tonebags and reddevilmichael
You almost got had to read your post twice to realise you were winding everyone up! You can not write Arsenal off because of one result, we are still 14 pts behind with 11 games to go not to mention Everton and spurs are chasing 4 th with Newcastle right behind. But it was you suggested that Moyes should adopt an attacking approach was the big give away.
Nice one you almost pull it off!

I know it be very hard but all I was saying was for us to have any chance to get in the top 4 arsenal are our best bet they will drop a lot of points between now and the end of the season but we would have to improve a lot

I hope Arsenal don't fade, I'd much prefer them or Liverpool to win Than Chelsea or City. I just don't like the idea of teams buying the league. Just to prove what a hypocrite I can be I'm hoping we start spending a lot more, yearly, on our team. Though in all fairness with our global earnings we should be able to.

01 Mar 2014 20:19:16
hope this is just paper talk and nothing else hummels would be open to a transfer to us but only if we are in champs league hope this is not a sign of things to come as we are up against it with other clubs out bidding us

01 Mar 2014 20:06:36
Well, Liverpool is long gone this season, we should forget them. let's focus on Spurs.

CTR, my thoughts are with you my friend. I am a Liverpool fan but things like this are bigger than football rivalry. I wish your family my best wishes

01 Mar 2014 17:25:20
Reports by a couple of media outlets says that Moyes has completely lost the dressing room. Interesting to keep an eye on and see what come sod this.

Come on southampton give me a nice chunky win.

Going to puke the scousers are very lucky. Southampton have battered them. and should be leading.

If I was being a pedantic arse I would point out you cannot lose something that you never actually had. Not a dig at the OP, I think you all get what I'm saying.

Point being there has to be a serious element of truth in these stories. Too many anecdotes along these lines, and everybody given the plot characters can see its most likely true. No amount of purchases in the summer will change this. The damage will remain, especially with a slow start to the season - which can be expected with such a turnaround of player.

The question is why, and will he ever be able to command a dressing room with world class players? It has to come down to respecting the manager, and respect as we all know has to be earnt. Even on a forum like this we all exist within a pecking order based on number and quality of posts.

On what basis has Moyes earnt such respect? Answer. he hasn't. His CV is bare in terms of results against better teams yet alone needing a trophy cabinet. Many of the supposed positives of his appointment, high-tech scouting systems, cut from the same Glaswegian cloth and his passion/addiction for watching other games for example is not enough. Might make him a great scout but not a manager. Too many at Everton are pleased to see him gone, and how many Champions League clubs would have considered him as management potential for their club? Certainly none of the clubs we consider our peers - though membership to that club is changing rapidly.

The reality is he will never match the expectations of many of the club's supporters in terms of style of play or leadership qualities needed to steer one of the biggest clubs in the world. He lacks any presence, and has demonstrated nothing to suggest he can lift this great club from the depths he has accelerated its decent to. He may not be responsible for years of neglect in the midfield, however two transfer windows later the problem still exists with arguably even more confusion as to why.

I'm bored with platitudes suggesting he needs time. Our club is haemorrhaging points, confidence, player appeal and credibility. A stubborn - and no longer admirable - level of support from the board is simply wasting time, and of greater concern is giving Moyes responsibility to invest whatever significant funds will only ever be available once to rescue this club. A bad summer of investment could see us back to the 80's where our season ends when we're knocked out if the FA Cup!

No other club would have offered this level of patience with such a completely unacceptable set if results. But that's no compliment. It's a sign of weakness that suggests unwarranted blind faith. A weakness now driven by SAF's need to demonstrate that the "chosen one" was not a mistake on his part - his first major decision ahead of becoming a Director.

The reality is this isn't just a question of removing Moyes, it's the public shaming of the headhunter that approached him in the first place and begged a packed Old Trafford to support their new manager.

Never thought I'd say I wish we played like Southampton! They've been brilliant. Oops. 2-0. Shame

{Ed004's Note - Yeah I was going to post saying how they're playing fantastic football as well}

GCU I posted recently how the media were going way over the top with criticism of all things United. This is just another baseless aimless dig. To the pedantic arse I do sincerely hope Moyes is given time and does indeed prove you wrong. Just as I hope, now we have signed him, Fellaini proves me wrong.

Evra gave an interview yesterday saying moyes had the full backing of the squad .

I'm sure this is unreliable tho.

Moyes has just issued a statement:

"There has been some speculation that I have lost the dressing, and while it is true that I am currently unable to find aforementioned dressing room, I will try to find it again before the next training session. Importantly, the club has pledged a big investment during the summer to buy me a top of the range sat nav. I can assure people that, with the aid of the sat nav, I will, hopefully, never lose the dressing room again."

He will be gone as soon as it is mathematically impossible for him to reach his KPIs. In this case the 4th place one has gone. The CL opportunity is still mathematically open. Once that is out of the way he will be out.

Over to the lawyers.

Just to say I, Timbo, am the pedantic arse above! I was logged in but username didn't show.

@grund - I'd be happy to be wrong, but my experienced footballing gut tells me I won't be.

Timbo

That's the saints out of the way now bring on you lot for a taste of the SAS. If your still looking for the dressing room, I've sold it on ebay after I robbbed moyes

Oh god we must be getting close to the bottom when we have scouters asking for an old trafford tie.

I guess we know it is a liverpool defeat then:)

Timbo

Brilliant post encompassing everything I have been saying. The turnaround since Moyes arrived has been nothing short of phenomenal, in fact we are almost back in the eighties. In fact we play our cup final against the Scousers in two weeks, however back in the day we often used to beat the Scouse as they went on to win the league.
Sentiment is the problem and it has held us back before and now is threatening our future, a decision needs to be made and soon but will they over rule SAF?

Agree with noname poster. But one way to get everyone on his side starts at wba and then beating the scousers and city.
If he is to turn things round he has to adapt the tactics and show some positiveness in his selections and tactics
Interesting to see what happens!

01 Mar 2014 14:57:57
Who are we playing this weekend? No one. How boring.

After a week punctuated with what was the most abject of performances in Europe, it is perhaps fitting that the reason we United fans have to endure a free weekend, is as a result of another ridiculous display of ineptitude, to wit, the penalty fiasco against Sunderland.

By chance I moved to the US in the early 80s, started a business and a family, and had no regular way of keeping up with football, so missed those dark years of scouser dominance. Yes, I'd endured the relegation year, but at least we had Tommy Docherty to amuse us. Football then was basically British players and British managers. It was only in the 90s as I began to be able to travel back home more often, that my active engagement with United was rekindled. How lucky was I?

So what will the next few years hold? A deep struggle to find a new and effective voice on the field? Serious success or failure? Under the circumstances prevaling back then, rebuilding a team as aging and as deficient as United's appears now, would have taken at least 3-5 years, but today with the gobs of money some entrepreneurs are prepared to throw at it, success can, under a well managed program, be virtually instantaneous - (Monaco and PSG?).

It will be interesting to see if United, owned by a primarily financially rather than football motivated group, can adjust to the new realities they will confront. If they are being led by the advice of the likes of the old-schoolers, Ferguson and Charlton, my guess is not.

(My favorite Tommy Docherty joke:
Frank O'Farrell came up to me and said he was thinking of buying Wynn Davies. I told him, "He can't play football." He said to me "But he's good in the air." "Aye, " I said, "So was Douglas Bader, but he had nae legs"

01 Mar 2014 11:38:10
I was talking to my best mate who's a Utd fan last night about David Moyes. The critical question raised was this; Would DM try to change Manchester United or would he be versatile enough to adapt his ways to change himself to the Utd way?
We both came to the conclusion that he will do the former. There are mitigating circumstances of course re playing staff, coaches etc to how he wants to play. Unfortunately a change in direction has come at the expense of results. The added pressure of 19 other teams relishing playing Utd at this time of turmoil has DM running scared. Even the worst teams who felt defeat before they walked on the pitch in the past feel they can get something from the match.
We both felt that the best way forward for the remaining games would be to forget about tactics, prospective results and just let the team go out and play. Show some adventure and spirit and at least build a platform for next season.
If Utd continue to set up to counter the other teams strengths instead of their own what is the point of letting him overhaul the squad for more of the same next year.
Unfortunately I think the pressure to get results for him will stop him trying anything new.

01 Mar 2014 02:41:11
Wanted to give my opinion on Cleverley.

To start it off, Cleverley is one of my least favorite players in the squad. When he first came on the scene, and people started calling him our midfield savior, I didn't see it. In 2011, Anderson was the one that was making things happen. Every attack started at his feet, and every stray ball in midfield found it's way to his left foot.

Cleverley looked like a decent enough midfielder. He was accurate with his passign and kept the ball moving.

Atm, Cleverley is still an accurate enough passer. his long range passing has improved, so has his tackling and his ability to intercept balls. So why does he look so shocking all the time. It's pretty easy.

At the beginning of 2011, Cleverley was playing with Young, Rooney, Welbeck, and Nani. Not to mention Anderson.

Now, Cleverley ( when he gets a game ) is playing mostly with Young, Valencia, Rooney and Van Persie.

Rooney and Welbeck were taking turns as the most advanced striker, dropping back quite often. Evans, Smalling and Jones were often picked at the back, playing a reasonably advanced defensive line. Young was playing on the left, cutting in and finding himself in the middle quite often, and so was Nani. Anderson was also very adventurous with his runs, offering an extra body up here.

Cleverley's was passing it to these guys, quickly and accurately. He was consistent, accurate, and moved the ball quite quickly. he was performing brilliantly.

Since then, Cleverley got injured, and improved as an all around player. He gained experience, improved his passing range, positioning and tackling ability. So why is he performing like utter sh**?

Easy. Atm, Cleverley, when played, is partnered with Carrick. His job is to keep the ball moving by passing it to players in space. But the problem is, when Cleverley is played, Young and Valencia also are. They stay on the wing, hugging the touchline. Carrick is playing deeper than Cleverley and Rooney and Van Persie are too far forward, and neither drops back consistently nough, while he does not possess the passing range that allows him to make a 30 yard pass to them in a congested area.

Therefore, when Cleverley has the ball, his options are Carrick ( behind him), Young and Valencia on the wings, and Rooney/ Van Persie.

Passing it to Carrick would make a back pass. Young and Valencia are hugging the touchline, not to mention kept at bay by the full backs. Rooney and Van Persie are both too further forward. The defenders are maintaining a deep line, causing Carrick and Cleverley to go further back to collect the ball. His options are to pass it backwards, pass it to the wing or drive forward with it. But Cleverley is not a skillful player, and his arrays forward consist more of quick one twos with the attacking midfielders to create space for him to run into. When there are no attacking midfielders to show, the Midfield consists of opposing players who'd close him down quickly and rob him off the ball.

That's where the difference lies. tactics. Cleverley can still pass the ball forward, quickly initiating attacks and interchange with the other midfielders. But when there is no one he can pass the ball to in front of him, his jo is to carry it himself or either hit Scholes like passes all over the pitch. He is not someone who will drive forward with the ball, nor someone who will consistently hit 50 yard through balls all over the pitch.

That is the reason I would not want u to get rid of Cleverley. He offers a reasonable amount of creativity and passing qualities in a narrow system. but when he keeps playing in a much wider, more rigid system, his qualities are well hidden. If Cleverley keeps improving his all around abilities, he can be a frequent starter for us.

Next time you see cleverley making a back pass/ wing pass, try, just try, to look at it objectively, and look at his options. If we have 3 players on each wing, who is he supposed to pass it to?

Hodgeson sees Cleverley's qualities, and so does Moyes ( so did ferguson, who rarely gets it wrong with our young players ). He performed well int eh championship ( just as good, if not better, than Powell is performing right now ) and was brilliant for Wigan. he was brilliant for us when we were playing a less rigid style and he has been underperforming for england ( who play a very rigid style ) and even worse for Moyes ( need I say more? )

Having said that, I still don't like Cleverley. I believe he could be as good as Henderson is for Liverpool and while he lacks Wilshere's talent, few players are on that level. That does not make Cleverley a bad player or not good enough for our team.

if Xavi came to United, he would struggle since he has no one to pass the ball to except on the wing. he would still improve us by a lot, but he would not perform to the best of his ability, because our rigid system does not allow continental players to flourish.

Mick1

Nice write up but have to disagree. Cleverly is not a united quality player period. I am not one to sign petitions but when a player is so poor in quite a few areas people need to stop making excuses for them. Everyone will have howlers but he has been like this for a long time now. Can't shoot, Can't pass and worst of all does not want the responsibility to try a telling pass and has zero courage.

We have dropped a long way from the days of robson, keane, scholes and others who were lions the middle of the pitch to be making excuses for poor Tom. He is almost 25 years old mate.

Next you are going to tell me how Bambi is gong to be great:) did anyone see that one play against olympiakos when the cross was waste high and he did some weird attempt to head the ball, Some of the strangest things I have ever seen from a striker. His brain and body don't function as one IMO :)

England are f. ed i'd these guys are the best they have for the world cup.

Great post with good reasoning but I personally would struggle to gather enuf words for a sentence on TC!

It's funny how quickly things can change for a footballer . Over 12 months ago people generally thought that cleverly was a decent player and Henderson was crap. Most felt relieved we didn't sign him after being interested . Now people think cleverly is crap and Henderson is some world beater he is just average playing in a confident set up

Shahram, Cleverley for me is a bit like Moyes. Decent, maybe not good enough for the top level.

But fact is, Every big team has squad players, and they can't all be Scholes and Xavis. Toure have Garcia and Rodwell, City have Mikel and Lampard, Arsenal have Arteta and Flamini.

In the right set up, Cleverley can be a decent squad player imo. He has his qualities and didn't become a crappy player overnight. he showed promise in the right set up, and while he showed he lacks the overall quality of a first choice center midfielder, he can be a pretty decent squad player ( until a more promising youngster replaces him that is )

I'm sorry Mick, but squad players need to offer more than Cleverley. If you look at his overall game, he does one thing relatively well: he can help maintain possession. A cm player who can't tackle, create, shoot, beat a man, provide strength or dictate the tempo of a game is simply not good enough for a top side. Players like Lampard, Arteta, Flamani, Garcia and even Rodwell when he's fit can all do what Cleverley can do and much much more. A midfield player needs more than one string to their bow, especially when they're aren't even spectacular at the one thing they are good at.

The argument can be made that with better players Cleverley could play better. But the simple fact remains that if we has better players, Cleverley would be nowhere near the first team. For a player who should be approaching the best years of his career, I think we all need to accept that Cleverley hasn't developed into a top player and as we bring in better players he should be phased out until he is sold to a club more suited to his level.

Mick1

I agree in the right set up he is a squad player. In a united setup and homegrown quota stuff he is at best a league cup and few pl games guy and nothing more. I generally give people the benefit of the doubt but way past that with him.

There times with any player you see something that makes you think ok maybe he needs mores time or different circumstances to shine i.e. Kagawa but with Cleverly never seen anything to make me think that and frankly put he is rubbish and decent gofer when you want someone to run around and chase an break things up for 30 minutes.

Pancho

12 months ago he was piss poor and this has been going on for some time. Many greater talents than him have not panned out as people thought so I don't understand the obsession with some of trying to make out this guy is something better.

He was never that good even before his injury and he is what he is a academy lad in the mild of gibson and good for a middle of the table team and if we ever depend on guys like him going forward we are never going to reach the heights we all want for the club.

GCU
I agree he is not going to be a top player and I didn't indicate he was or is I am just pointing that he was seen as better than he is being looked at now. I have never rated Carrick as a top player although better than TC . What I was pointing out is that the majority of fans rated TC over 12 months ago. Most Liverpool fans until this season thought Henderson was crap. I don't think he is better than TC he is just playing with more confidence because his team are playing well.

I do believe he can be a very useful member of the squad.

He is on relatively low wages, ever improving, and will perform well in a system. There is absolutely no reason why Cleverley cannot do a similar job to Neville and Butt. He is never going to carry the game by the scruff of the neck, or be the main man, but with better players, and in a narrow system, Cleverley can do a good job, and allow the likes of Gundogan (? ) much needed rest.

Now, I don't believe he should be here for the long haul. We're producing midfielders by the bucket loads, all of whom have the potential to be better than Cleverley ( Petrucci, perreira, Goss, Rothwell, James and Pearson are possibilities ) and should take his place in the squad in the long term, but to suggest we need to push him out of the door, or start petitions to stop him from going to games, is a disgrace.

I repeat, I do not rate Cleverley highly, nor do I particularly like him, but the level of abuse he gets is not warranted. he plays in a system that does not suit his rather limited style.

You would not see Pirlo playing to his best in Barcelona, nor would you see Xavi playing to his best in Manchester United. I'm not saying Cleverley is anywhere near as talented or as good, but the fact that he does not suit Moyes' style of play remains.

And until we see other youngsters develop, it would make no sense to get rid of Cleverley, and spend a bucket load on an overpriced squad player ( already got Fellaini for that ).

Gibson was better

Absolute bottle job is tom cleverly, hiding all the time, no courage to go and take the ball and make something happen, always taking the easy pass(usually backwards), don't give me all this talk about having nobody to pass too because its complete rubbish, put a young scholes in the team and there would be a pass on every time and not just a switch of play either, his short passing and vision was exceptional, cleverly's shooting has to be the worst I've seen, doesn't matter whether he's 20 yards out or 6 yards out the ball always finds itself up on the 2nd tier. would be the first shipped out in the summer if I had my way.

I generally agree with Sharams post but on this not so much I think a few times over the last couple of seasons TC has shown glimpses of what a talent he could be not enough of course but very occasionally. As a squad player he would do a good job when called on which would not be very often imo should we purchase the midfielders that we want or need. So another question should be will HE want to stay on as nothing more than a carling cup player? I personally think there is a good chance of him moving on in the next 2 windows and think that it may well be our loss in the long term. Reliable to a point, a youth product with the club at heart and a half decent player. He is never in a million years going to be the answer to our problems but a useful backup plan imo.

As far as petitions and twitter campaigns against him go I find it pathetic and a sad indictment of people in general not just football fans the need for a scapegoat is out of control atm.

It doesn't matter if Cleverley is on relatively low wages, he's still not good enough. And what are his wages relative low too, because I imagine it takes most posters a couple of years to earn Tom's wage.

Dean1210

I do agree this petition is pathetic and I wonder which idiots are signing up to something like this. It will definitely be very bad for the boys confidence and will affect an already poor season for the worse I fear.