Manchester United Banter Archive April 20 2013

 

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20 Apr 2013 22:26:22
Just a bit of a fun, in terms of wing options, who do we see as being the most likely signing:

Di Maria, Gaitan, Rodriguez, Gotze, Rodriguez or Bale?

I think its likely to be one of those 5, all of whom are very comfortable playing on the left handside. {Ed004's Note - I'd love any two of them}

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Ed, do you reckon we will need 2 even though Zaha is coming? {Ed004's Note - Yes but only if Rooney and Nani leave. 2 wingers would need to leave}

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One last question Ed, do you think Zaha will be a first team regular next season or a squad player? {Ed004's Note - Squad player. Similar to Powell but will get considerably more game time}

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20 Apr 2013 23:42:57
I don't think we need two wingers if Nani and Rooney leave. We've already got Zaha coming in. Add that to Young and Valencia, as well as Kagawa Giggs and Welbeck who can do a good job wide. That's six players for two postions even without the extra winger we currently need.

As for which could we sign?

Well Bale is far too expensive and supposedly uninterested in moving to us.

Lamela's complicated ownership probably rules him out.

Di Maria will be too much especially when you factor in his wages. Also he goes down too easily for me. The club apparently has no interest in him too.

Rodriguez would be my choice but it looks like Porto are going to push his price too high, but he is still more likely than Bale Lamela or Di Maria imo.

Gaitan is looking most likely, he has talent, but probably not as much as everyone mentioned so far.

And maybe Andre Ayew could be the swerve ball thrown into the mix, a good solid player who'll offer a more defensively sound option than the others.

I'd say one of Rodriguez Gaitan and Ayew are the most likely. {Ed004's Note - So do I. Personally I reckon wing options of Young, Valencia and Zaha to offer a direct approach and them 2 inverted wingers signings and we are very strong there. The 4 players for the hole and st in RVP, Welbeck, Hernandez/Lewamdowski and Kagawa. Shappy who would you rather sign Lamela or Rodriguez? Also anyone seen ayew this year}

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Personally I think we might just make a push for Di Maria. He might be the best value out the 5. I know that we are the bookies favourite to sign him - not that that means anything.

Fresh!

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21 Apr 2013 00:14:49
Thats a tough one Ed, they are different types of Wingers, Rodriguez has that burst of pace similar to Valencia, where as Lamela prefers to play on the opposite flank and cut in onto his stronger foot like Young. I think Lamela will be the better player overall but Rodriguez may be better suited to the Premier league. Saying that though I think we have enough players who are good enough to win the Prem, where we need to improve is in europe and with that Lamela would be the better option and the one I would probably go for.

Fresh, Di Maria wouldn't be the best Value. He would expect the highest wages of the choices and Madrid would want at least 25m but probably closer to 30m or more. {Ed004's Note - Cheers Shappy. My biggest concern about Lamela is that he isn't the quickest and he doesn't work very hard defensively. Di Maria is a safe bet though as he is the only one proven in Europe. Though his injury record is concerning tbh}

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Ronaldo please!

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21 Apr 2013 10:58:37
Shappy you cite Rodriguez's pace as the reason he would suite the premier league better than Lamela, I disagree on this.

The only thing Lamela lacks is pace, and considering he was out for 9 months last season if I recall correctly, I think that's nornal. He is guetting faster with time. Also Lamela is much more physical. He is bigger, stronger, and doesn't go down as easy as Rodriguez.

So I would think Rodriguez is the one who would adapt quicker to the premier league, but Lamela, given some time, would be massive. Same as Kagawa imo.

Mick {Ed004's Note - I don't think Rodriguez was that quick he isn't as quick as other wingers in the premiership}

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21 Apr 2013 11:39:10
i expect rooney, nani and anderson to depart if we can find buyers and scholes and fletcher to retire. With three midfielders going that's our priority and we'll sign two. Also a striker and one other winger plus zaha. I think we'll go for someone like ayew who won't stretch the budget leaving money for the midfield. Strootman and lewandowski also won't break the bank leaving more for one big name midfielder. MrE

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21 Apr 2013 12:09:17
He moght not be Bale quick Ed but he is pretty fast. Close control, quick feet and a nice acceleration, he's like a slightly slower less good Hazard.

Mick {Ed004's Note - Thanks}

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20 Apr 2013 19:47:20
I'm so disappointed stoke won and now look like they are staying up. Their football has no place in the premier league.

I was thinking though with Qpr down do u think utd should take advantage of the situation and get a couple of players on the cheap.

Don't laugh I was thinking cesar as back up gk, samba and remy!

I know that samba hasn't been that good this season but I remember the Blackburn days where he was very gd. Even if he came in as 4th choice cb.

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I can't see cesar coming in, I can see him heading back to Brazil.

Supposedly we're looking at a CB but Samba doesn't really fit the pattern with the other supposed targets and I think a fair few would see it as a bad signing despite his Blackburn form.

I really rate Remy I think he's a good player but as with Samba really I don't think he's at United level, certainly not to be a starting forward anyway.

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Tarabat would be a good addition.

Shahram

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20 Apr 2013 20:43:59
i'll be gutted if Wigan go down, and it's not looking good for them atm. I like Martinez, and Whelan and the way they run the club. I would rather Stokes anti football side went down, or Sunderland for what they did last season, or Norwich who have some how pulled themselves abit away from trouble even with a poor side.

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Remy is decent but is more like Newcastle levels I think, maybe Liverpool. Samba is just a big lad, he's not actually that brilliant. Cesar I think is going to AC Milan? Read it somewhere. Taarabt would be good but he is too up and down and I think he ruined his chance when he threw a mardy when we were scouting him. There's no one from Wigan that's good enough - not even McCarthy.

Would love Sunderland to go down, but its about time Wigan go down as much as I like them. Realistically don't really care as long as Villa stay up, think they're a great club and should be doing better in the EPL.

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How don't Stoke deserve to be in the Prem? They've put in the work to stay there for 7 years (?) and i'd much prefer having them there than a bunch of women you start rolling around on the floor after getting a slight touch from another player.

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See the point about Stoke probably earning their place in the Prem but would rather have seen them drop.

Them, and Norwich for me are two boring teams to watch, that's just my opinion based on games as a spectacle there are other teams as well but those 2 particularly for me are dull to watch.

Strongly dislike Sunderland since their fans last year, but for some reason I quite like Di Canio so my dislike for them has lessened slightly.

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I can't believe that people are actually talking about Taarabt as a good signing. He's essentially a lazier less effective more arrogant version of Nani. Zero work rate, no consistency, and his attitude stinks. A few fancy tricks and a bit of skill doesn't make up for the fact that he spends 90% of the game strutting around the centre circle waiting for the chance to show off.

Danny Pughnited

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Danny

He is very talented and can pick out some of the best 30 yard through balls you will see.

Cantona had a lot of issues and a reputation if people remember but you get certain players at the right club with the right coaching and you can get the best out of them.

Shahram

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And Nani is very talented, can score from either foot and can skin almost any centre back. In fact, Nani has twice the talent Taarabt will ever have, but he still isn't consistent enough to be a top class player, and Nani doesn't have a toxic attitude.

Comparing him to Cantona? Please. The better comparison is Ravel, and Ravel is more naturally gifted. Do you honestly think that a player who has been dropped by one of the bottom teams because he can't be trusted to infulence games will be a good signing for the champions elect?

Danny Pughnited

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20 Apr 2013 17:54:36
A lot of big names being talked about and hopefully an exciting and rewarding transfer window coming up to put us not only on top where we are, but back to the side that plays great football with panache and flair that we have been denied recently, but a question for the eds and regulars

In recent seasons it seems not to be a case of utd not trying to sign the players we all would love to see, but that these players are also wanted elsewhere and choose to go elsewhere, such as lucas moura, ozil, benzema etc,
Now without going into the reasons why this is the case, as i'm sure we all have a good idea why, but the question has to be asked, do you really see that changing this summer, and if so what makes you belive that to be the case?

Thanks

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20 Apr 2013 19:22:54
Van persie?

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Moura, benzema, ozil, hazard, essien, mikel (thankfully), varane, villa, alba, modric.
All players we were interested in but for various reasons didn't or couldn't compete, their are very few players these days who value anything more than the pay cheque, another reason why rvp is a special player

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You're thinking along the lines of every big name we've ever been linked with we were genuinely in for, when in reality a lot of it is recycled rumour/gossip to sell papers.

United have a tendency to go for their targets early on in the window and get the business out of the way.

As for things changing this year, neither United or Ferguson will be held to ransom but if there is a player we want, that want's to come to us and a fee can be agreed, I believe they will come. We have spent in the past, Berba and RVP two prime examples of when we wanted the player the money was there.

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No Name

What you are saying is not correct and to make every players a mercenary is overstating the facts by a large margin.

Most of the players you have mentioned have taken the option of playing for the big 2 in Spain or London. By any measure, championships, tradition, previous world class players, climate (London excluded), lifestyle etc etc it is easy to see why they chose those clubs. Get the rose tinted glasses off and grow up.

There is also other factors besides money i. e. playing time, style of play, Other players at the club, position that influences a young footballers decision.

Believe it or not they did not all grow up dreaming playing for united and in most cases they all dream of playing for the big 2 in Spain.

Shahram

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And I think because a lot of them dream of playing for the big two in Spain, then if we want top players then we have to pay for them.
Sadly, in don't think this will change and we'll keep buying "potential" like Bebe, obertan, tosic etc.

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In response to sharham, where in the original post does it mention mercanries, it infact says we are all aware of the reason, money is of course one reason, alternative clubs in sunnier climes is another possible reason and there are numerous possibilities as well, but the question remains, do you really think that if we are in for the big star names as suggested over and over again, what realistically makes you believe a player, from germany for instance, would opt to sign for utd rather than say milan where the sun shines and the city is stunning, or madrid with all it has to offer, and yes money is of course one reason?

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Mate it was response to the third post and not the original post.

Cherios,

Shahram

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20 Apr 2013 16:15:11
Shappy you win the award for talking the biggest pile of Rubbish about the Brand. Talking about him as the future well if he is the future then the future looks bleak. He is the new style of midfielder you say. Would that be the kind that doesn't beat a man run with the ball or score a goal. Well you can keep that type of midfielder. As for TK-Red I was genuinely touched by you sticking up for Shappy I hope he swallows for you

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Cleverley has scored twice as many as Carrick. Not sure I have ever seen Carrick beat a man.

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He can't do any of them things kloot because he's played so many games he's tired lol
johndenton

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2nd poster, are you seriously comparing Cleverley to Carrick?

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Really RFT? Swallowing jokes? I know even you can do better than that.

TK-Red

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Ah klot has to resort to personal insults and then moans about the lack of "banter" on the site.

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To the Carrick post. What did you just say. I worry about the football knowledge of some fans.

-JakeW

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20 Apr 2013 19:14:35
Your blinded by your hatered for him, and you refuse to give him any credit for any good work he does. that's fine, I get it. You've obviously had a hard upbringing and your many childhood dreams have been crushed one by one. This has made you hateful and bitter about the world, your views are sometimes a bit predudice. And you come across as the most negative person i've ever met. I feel sorry for you, your life must be truely awful if this is the person it has moulded you into.

If making predudice aspersions on mine and other posters sexuality makes you feel better then my pleasure. I'm confident enough in myself not to be bothered by you or your anger at the world that has obviously dissapointed you on many many occasions.

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I'm sure cleverly gets so much stick on here because he gets bigged up so much.
He's not a bad player but no where near as good as some make out.
Shappy
Yes he plays a modern brand of football but he doesn't play it well enough he's a poor man's Wilshere.
Every good midfielder in the world can do what he does and then more.
Clevs is a decent player but imo he won't be a great player.
He's a squad player and nothing more at the moment and if we sign 1 maybe 2 quality cm he may struggle for a game next year

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Cleverly is the energetic midfielder you play againts weak teams carrick is for the big boys end of
Paddy The Irish Man

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Hooked so easily. too too easy

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20 Apr 2013 23:22:11
If you say so Kloot, if you say so.

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Kloot's reply is not only a personal insult, it also manages to be both misogynistic and homophobic at the same time. AND unfunny. A remarkable achievement Kloot.

Da Rob Man.

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Da Rob Man I appreciate that I touched a raw nerve with you please re read what I wrote and tell me what exactly was Mysogonistic or homophobic about what I wrote

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There's plenty of worse players than Cleverly to have in the team, he does a job I think when he plays and I don't think too much criticism is fair.

Don't see where the Cleverly v Carrick comparison comes in to it, we might as well be saying Van Persie scored more than Smalling (extreme example)

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That's funny RFT because I would've said it was you that was "hooked too easily" by the very fact that you felt the need to start a new thread to respond. Try again sunshine ;)

TK-Red

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20 Apr 2013 14:31:09
Ed is the football manager transfer payment system quite realistic with monthly installments and money after certain appearances? {Ed002's Note - I have no idea. You would need have one of the kiddie game playing Eds explain it to me and I will see.}

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Www.talkvideogames.co.uk/

Or just ask here.

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20 Apr 2013 14:09:51
Which would people prefer: city drop points against spurs and we win it against villa infront of our own fans; or both us and city win this weekend and instead we win it against arsenal on their patch infront of their fans? I'd rather we win it ourselves rather than other teams doing us a favour. {Ed004's Note - I don't care as long as we win it but would be good seeing Arsenal having to give RVP a guard of honour}

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It would be good to win it at arsenal but I think it'd be best if we were presented the trophy at old trafford and it allows rvp to celebrate fully.

TRUMORS

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20 Apr 2013 15:09:07
If we win the league it has nothing to do with Arsenal, they aren't are nearest rivals nor are they a team I pertically detest. I don't see why winning it at Arsenal would mean anything to us. Where as winning it infront of our own fans would mean sharing that special moment with the people who matter.

As for RvP I think after all the time he spent there, I would expect he'd rather win it before hand and celebrate being a champion with his new adoring fans would be better then rubbing it in the faces of those who used to idolise him.

Put it this way if you left a good loyal girlfriend because you no longer loved her, would you then feel it appropreate to Marry your new girlfriend in your ex's living room just to rub her face in it?

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Just want us to win it ASAP to be honest. It's been a bit of a jittery few weeks so the sooner we get it wraped up the sooner we can give some games to some fringe players and youngsters to see what they can do.

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Not really bothered, I'd like to have it wrapped up soon and couldn't really care less about winning it at the emirates.

And I quite like Spurs to beat City anyway would rather them in the top 4 than the others.

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20 Apr 2013 13:14:44
Is it plausable to go for a different style of formation? Maybe a 3 4 1 2?

Before you think i'm crazy, you have 3 centre back, 2 CM's, the 2 wingers could be the full backs bombing up and down, playmaker, then 2 strikers?

In theory it looks strong, would need a lot of commitment from the 'wingers' though

Safwetrust87 {Ed004's Note - I think the wingers in a 3412 have to be very hard working and good defensively. Last season Valencia was perfect for that role as he is good enough defensively but was excellent at hitting the byline but he's on current form he isn't good enough. We also do not have a winger who could play that role on the left side. Bale style at the beginning of the year would have been perfect for that role but he would never play it now and he would be slightly wasted there}

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20 Apr 2013 14:26:05
If you want to play that way then your better off playing with a three man midfield rather than a three man defence in a 4312 formation. It causes less issues with defenders who are used to playing a in a two and now need to learn a total different way of playing. But mostly having a three man defence tends to invite teams onto you meaning your wing backs get pegged back more often than not limiting there effectiveness going forward.
By having a three man midfield you assert more control of the game further up the pitch meaning your wing backs can get further forward making them more of a threat out wide and putting more pressure on the opposition defence as you have a man over through your player playing in the hole. The key to playing this way though is you need a more specialised holding midfielder as you need someone to cover the full backs if your caught on the break and two players who will do the work and move the ball forward. If we signed Wanyama for the holding role and Strootman to play with Carrick in the box to box roles then we would look very strong.

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I'd rather stick to 4 at the back but have better cover in midfield in front of them personally. But then I'm a bit of a traditionalist.

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Wouldn't a 4312 be essentially the same as playing a 442 diamond formation? {Ed002's Note - Geometry not a strong point I see - it would be a triangle.}

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20 Apr 2013 19:45:15
Yes it is but its much easier to say 4312 rather than 442 diamond. Its funny that some of our best performances this season have come with this formation.

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20 Apr 2013 13:00:21
if rooney does go I think there is only one replacement. He will need replacing as hernandez is better off the bench, welbeck is more of a forward than a striker, macheda isn't good enough, keane and henriquez are too young. That only leaves us with van persie and if his form dips or he gets tired or injured we could be in trouble. I don't see us going for over priced players like falcao or cavani who could struggle to adapt to england. We also need a midfielder or two and another winger so spanking the budget on one player makes no sense. But there is a striker who should settle and represents value for money and that's lewandowski. MrE {Ed004's Note - Imo Gotze would be the perfect replacement}

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Lewandowski on current form would be good replacement. Reus would also fit the bill as Kagawa can play in the hole and we need goals from winger/forwards which our current crop are incapable off.

Shahram {Ed004's Note - Personally if Rooney goes along with Nani I would sign two players who can play out wide (Kagawa and RVP can play in the hole) and also centrally to replace him and I would only sign Lewandowski if Hernandez or Welbeck leaves. I'd love Gotze and then a left footer which would hopefully be Rodriguez or Lamela. Not sure which of those I'd prefer tbh}

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20 Apr 2013 13:30:27
Ed I was talking purely in terms of replacing rooney as a striker as we would need someone to take the pressure off van persie. If we were looking to replace rooney in terms of an attacking midfielder then gotze would be the perfect replacement. However I don't see dortmund selling two big names in the same transfer window much less selling two to us in one window. Also I expect gotze to stay with dortmund one more season for his development and move after the world cup. Which is more or less what his agent has said this week. I do think if anyone else bids for him then we'll jump in unless it becomes a lucas moura situation and we get outbid. But with gotze likely to stay one more year it doesn't help us and we'd need another signing. Which is what I think is the plan anyway. Lewandowski this year and gotze next year. I think we might even spend this season seeing how zaha and welbeck do as inside forwards and see what happens with young and valencia. Not my ideal plan but i'm not sure who else we'd go for. Lamela is too complicated, we're not after isco according to your colleague, and I think rodriguez is too costly. Not sure who else we'd go for. I do agree with you on gotze just think the timing isn't right. And if rooney goes a striker replacement would be more needed. Interesting summer ahead anyway. MrE {Ed004's Note - I disagree as I reckon Hernandez would get more game time and he always scores, welbeck is improving and RVP is just unbelievable. I think we need supply to the forwards more and IMO Gotze is a must this summer as he is a future Ballon D'or. I don't want it being a case were we acted too late to sign him}

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Have to agree with the ed. Gotze would be ideal and maybe the reason why Fergie hasn't bought a midfielder yet! {Ed004's Note - Hopefully! Midfield of Carrick, Strootman, Kagawa with two wide players who can come in such as Gotze and one other and we would be extremely hard to beat}

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20 Apr 2013 13:59:35
Hernandez struggles though when he starts games. Especially domestic ones. He's better as an impact player. Maybe welbeck with a good run upfront and kagawa and van persie supplying him could become more prolific. But I think we'd need someone else. What if van persie had a serious injury? We'd be left with just hernandez and welbeck. As I said I agree gotze is a must have, I just don't see him moving this summer. but next summer I can see us spending a big wedge on him. Next summer we could go for gotze a left back and maybe a centreback. This summer though lewandowski, strootman and either another centre mid for options or another wing/ forward option. I can see us going for a left field option like andre ayew who wouldn't cost the earth and fits into the budget. Then next summer gotze. MrE

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20 Apr 2013 14:07:47
Ed, if Goetze plays on the left next to KAgawa, we would need to sign a left footed player to play on the right and balance things out. Rodriguez, and Lamela are the most capable pones but I real. on here that we're looking to sign Gaitan again? I hope not.

But unfortunatly I don't see Fergy moving away from the more typical wingers, which is why we bought Zaha to play on the right, he does like someone who can cross.

On the other hand a left footed player is a must, and in the youth system we have Januzaj who's not more than a season away from the first team, and Barmby who would take more time if he manages to make it. Do you rate either of them to be able to come in and improve the team in a coiple of years' time?

Mick {Ed004's Note - I haven't seen enough of either to be able to judge if they are good enough and I think mainly due to René Meulensteen we will be moving to a more fluid style of play and i think that was the main reason we signed Kagawa and RVP and also tried for Hazard and Moura. A front 4 of Gotze, Kagawa, Rodriguez/Lamela and RVP would be the best in the league IMO as long as they had a strong midfield and then you have Young, Zaha and Valencia to provide width when it is needed}

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Mick

Although I only saw him briefly Dimitri Mitchell fits the left footed winger category and looked to have serious potential but is probably 3 years away.

Red Man

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21 Apr 2013 14:22:12
Cheers red man, I'll keep an eye on him

Mick

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20 Apr 2013 12:32:55
{Ed002's Note - We are not going to get involved in all of the financials as people don't understand them, don't see them in context and it simply leads to grief on these pages.}

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Ed002 you have to very careful as all I was doing was stating facts and not opinion. What would George Orwell think about your actions? {Ed002's Note - He would think them nifty Winston.}

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20 Apr 2013 11:37:36
liverpool were a really good boat that sunk now there a submarine they spend some time up but most of there time is spent down united were a submarine that got blew up then they started building a really good boat that has slowed down over time but has never ever stopped going some other boats have passed but we have got back out in front again
Paddy The Irish Man

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20 Apr 2013 12:20:12
i know its a nice sunny day but its a bit early for the Magners.

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Paddy you need to leave your room and go out

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Im afraid kloot i'm in the kitchen
Paddy The Irish Man

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I only drink bulmers mate
Paddy The Irish Man

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20 Apr 2013 08:28:53
So if citeh can buy cavani for £50m then pay him a reported £13.3m a year, how does that fit in with Mr. Platini's financial fair play plans when citeh can't even fill their stadium? Also, France themselves have PSG and Monaco who are big spenders these days, I wonder if Mr. Platini will be quite so arrogant.
I'm a supporter of the scheme but I also realize it will never happen, as clubs will just skirt round the rules.
Nomidfield

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When did city buy cavani?

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Am I the only one who doesn't see what's so special about Cavani?

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G. A. G. U. S

I try not to comment on Cavani as I won't have seen him nearly as often as many other poster's on this site. But I must admit the 2 or 3 times I watched him closely he didn't overly impress me. Perhaps I just coincidentally watched his only poor games but his huge price tag has always amazed me going from what I've seen of him.

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Shappy jus read your post about the evolution of midfielders, and as a united fan of nearly 20 years, I absolutely agree. All this Rooney bashing also is rediculous, he is absolutely world class, he may have lost his pace and some of his appetite this season, but he still works so hard, and like the "engine oil" you talked about, we will miss him immensely if he leaves.

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20 Apr 2013 00:25:27
Tom Cleverley, love him or hate him everyone has an opinion of him.

I think the biggest problem Cleverley has is he is english, and in england we don't have an appreciation for players like Cleverley. He is the next stage in the evolution of midfielders, but in england the average english fan hasn't come to turns with the current stage of midfielder and are stuck in a by gone time when it comes to what the job is of a nidfielder is.

There is a belief in england that there is only two ways to change a game of football, you either need to run with the ball and forced a goal either through sheer determination or through a wonder strike or you go crunching into other players with tackles intended to intimadate as much as to win the ball.

This principal is perticulary evident amoungst Untied fans who have been blessed with midfielders of the like of Ince Robson Keane and Scholes. But that was the 80/90's and football has moved on. Trying to find players like them is harder than ever because football has evolved, now you have midfielders like Alonso Pirlo and Carrick, players who win the ball back via intelligent positioning and reading of the game. Who's tackles if needed are neat and clean, but more often than not they don't even tackle but just intercept the ball. They don't run the length of the pitch nor do they score many goals. But they are the key men on the field as they control the game with their passing. They control the tempo and they dictate the game according to need, speeding it up if a goal is needed and slowing it down when trying to take the sting out of the opposition.

United fans have only in the last 12-18 months started to appreciate the job Carrick does, and most other english fans still don't appreciate the job he does.

But If Carrick is the now then Cleverley is the future. If you look at teams like Dortmund and Barca and the way they play, lots of pressing and playing high up the pitch, lots of short inter linking passes amounst technically gifted players who have lots of composure so as to not give the ball away.

Cleverley isn't a fericious battler ala Keane nor the burst into the box and scorer like Scholes, nor is he the sit deep and dictate play ala Carrick. He is the new breed of midfielder, the player with a high work rate who'll press players higher up the pitch and win the ball then recycle it and keep it moving.

He is like engine oil, you never notice it when it's there but when it isn't the car just doesn't run smoothly. Point in case he has been rested recently since just after the Madrid game due to fear of burn out, how would you say the team has performed since his exculsion? The Reading and Sunderland games? the Chelsea games? Man City? Stoke and West Ham? hardly a team playing with the same fluidity of earlier in the season. He may not be the heart and soul of the team but he is the life blood which keeps them pumping. And maybe if some of us opened our eyes abit more and moved on from 20th century england we might notice this abit more.

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Shappy

On the subject of Cleverley I think he is better than some but not as good as you make out. He did well on loan at Wigan and has some good aspects to his game. I don't think he is anywhere near Xavi or Iniesta level, he doesn't create enough nor score enough nor can he dominate a game. A decent player in a midfield that is mid table but I am far from convinced he is the player to carry us to Championships and European glory. He is reaching an age where he should be strong enough to be playing every week but can't. Uniteds main concern when he was developing was his physicality and body strength so the present situation is concerning.
We have been poor since Madrid but I am not attributing that to Cleverleys absence but the mental attitude and pace of our game. At a time when we are desperate for midfield players Cleverley is sitting the games out when we need that defining midfield player most which tells me he is not the ultimate answer. For me a good squad player but another who is not going to bring us the top prizes.

Red Man

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Very well thought out and constructed post, but lol there is always a but, what if there are players who embody all the skills you espouse and can also battle ferociously and when the gap exists burst into the box. I know of 2 I admire who do Vidal and Strootman and I really hope we sign one of them.

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I don't see why anyone would hate him, its not like we spent £7 million on him and his name is Bebe. He is a squad player, nothing more, but hating him is ridiculous as he has done nothing wrong.

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Shappy, I generally agree with your posts but your 1st line is wrong. The biggest problem with Cleverly isn't that he is English, it is that he has failed to dominate any game he has played in yet. I'm not saying he won't become a very good player, but I have yet to see anything that tells me he will. I'm sure Syd will defend him and tell he has been injured, played out of position, but when we have been under pressure this year, he has gone missing.

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20 Apr 2013 12:14:55
I'm not saying Cleverley is the answer to our midfield, and someone like Strootman Vidal or Witsel is needed obviously. But I think he gets a lot of unfair stick just because people don't understand what he brings to a team. There is no one midfielder we can bring in who'll change our entire team over night, there is many factors that need to be looked at both personel wise and tactically.

At worst Cleverley is a very good squad player who can fill in and do a job, with time maybe he can develop into something more. No one thought much of Fletcher when he was 23, but look how vital he became. No one thought much of Carrick a few years ago and look how he is regarded now?

People are dissapointed at not signing a midfielder last summer and have taken that out on Cleverley which is unfair.

As for him not playing the last few games, he was obviously knackered and has been tested in much the same way as Sterling has been rested by Liverpool. He has been asked to play a key role in a team challenging for the title in his first full season in top flight football. That is a huge ask and he has done well in a team that hasn't been playing great football.

It just seems that there always has to be a player who gets picked on and blamed by the fans for everything wrong with the club. Carrick Evans Evra Rooney Welbeck Nani Young and Cleverley have all fallen victim to this at one stage or another. Yet all of them have been vital in our recent successes. And alk of them are trusted by Sir Alex, a man who knows them as people and as players and is best placed to judge them worthy or not. And until he shows them the door, he feels they warrent their place in the squad.

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20 Apr 2013 12:30:32
AJH, I think you've missed my meaning in that line. Because he is english he is judge by what english fans expect of a midfielder. But he doesn't play in a typical english way, he plays in a more continental way. Pass and move keep the ball moving and work and opening. The typical english way is dominate a game with your physicality either by hard tackles or strong runs and shots. If he was Spanish or Italian he wouldn't be expected to play that way and wouldn't be judged poorly because he doesn't.

Cleverley will never dominate a game though physical means, look at the size and build of him. He should in time learn to control a game with his movement of the ball but he is still young and in the early stages of his career. Have you ever seen Carrick physically dominate a game? And he is much better equiped physically to do so. He controls games with his movement of the ball, but this is something which he has only really flourished in over the past 3/4 years which would have made him 26/27 when he learned how to do this, and he'd played a lot of football at that point, are you now expecting a 23yo Cleverley to do so in his first full season playing in a top flight league?

Xavi at Barcelona is probably the best in the world at dominating a game by controlling the flow of the ball but he didn't look world class until he was 25/26 and he had also played a lot of football.

Controlling a game though passing is a skill that takes along time to master as you need to be faultless to pull it off.

Give Cleverley the time he need to hone and master this skill and in a few years time we may have a player who we can be hugely proud to call ours.

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Shappy ask yourself this question. When we needed a victory did Fergie turn to his engine oil no. He realised that sometimes an engine has to be cleaned out and you throw away the old engine oil that is completely useless and slowing the engine down

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20 Apr 2013 12:40:20
Great post shappy. People moaned saying we should play like barca to match barca and now we are trying to evolve the style and bringing in the players to do this now they moan and want to turn the clock back twenty years to an outdated style of play which teams like barca or dortmund would destroy. People say he's not like xavi. No but who is? Also xavi at the same age was provoking this same discussion amongst barca fans, many of whom wanted him sold and a big flash name brought in. Barca persisted and xavi flourished. I'm not saying cleverley will reach the same heights as xavi but he can reach carricks level. MrE

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You guy having a laugh, he has no where the technical ability of some of the guys you are mentioning. I think it is more a case of him being english and overhyped rather then if he was spanish we would all be raving about him :)

Shahram

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Well done RFT. You've managed to miss Shappy's point by quite some distance.

TK-Red

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20 Apr 2013 13:59:22
Shappy I think you have an overly positive view on Cleverley tbh.

I do agree with you that we should not sell him and he can be a key squad player for us, but his ability and potential are limited at best.

You name Carrick as a player who has underperformed and now is playing at the top level again. Did you watch Carrick during his West-ham and Tottenham days? When he first arrived he couldn't find his exact role in the team, and honestly wasted his skills. If you compare him to Cleverley, Carrick has more skills on the ball, can occasionaly beat a defender, is 10 times the passer Cleverley will ever be and has a thunder shot on him, even though he doesn't use that often. Ever since his West-Ham days all of these were obvious.

Cleverley on the other hand is a hard working player with a continental style. But just because we need a player who plays that type of football doesn't mean it has to be Cleverley.

What are his actual attributes? What is he good at? Movement and work rate. That's it.

His passing range is abmysal, in his last 2 years at the club I haven't seen him pull off a single dribble, he is not creative and more often than not chooses the easy way out, can't pull off a through ball, barely tackles and rarely intercepts.

You say the reason he is not appreciated in England is because his style is not english at all. I would say his style is a combination of English and spanish. He goes around huffing and puffing all over the pitch with no skill whatsoever ( a l' anglaise ) and the second he recieves a ball he just passes it side ways/ backwards and makes himself available ( Spain anyone?). So the way I see it he didn't take any of the actual essence of both styles, he lacks the physical supremacy and drive of a typical english player ( Gerrard ) and has none of the vision and skills of Spanish players ( Xavi, Iniesta, Silva. ).

Now I understand that Cleverley doesn't deserve half the abuse he recieves. All in all he is a hard working player who's doing his best, and he will keep improving. But fact is that we need better atm, and unfortunatly for him his rise in the team comes at the same time as the retirement of Scholes, so he has some big, big shoes to fill, and he lacks the talents to. But then again, how many players could ever come close to Schole's level.

But at the same time as he recieves abuse, some posters like yourself and Sydney choose to defend him, which is great. I find that Syd rates him way too highly imo, but he's been following him for years. I just say things as I see him, and he lacks the talent and attributes to nail down a regular role at a club the size of manchester united, but at the same time he deserves to be given a chance without too much expectations on his shoulders, expectation that he will probably never fill.

Mick

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Shappy
U could take cleverly name out if your post and insert Joe Allen and all them points would still be valid
An other average player

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20 Apr 2013 14:58:23
Don't worry TK, I knew Kloot wouldn't get it. He let's his personal feelings about players off field activities cloud his judgement when looking at their on field performance. According to him Cleverley has been the worst player to play for us ever since he thought he was a celebrity instead of a footballer, and Rooney hasn't had a single good moment for us since he held the club to ransom. His pure haterd for these players stops him from seeing any contribution they make. Its a personal vendetta.

Mick, Cleverley has more talent then maybe you give him credit for even if he doesn't show it as often as he could. Maybe its because i've seen him play in the youth set up and on his loan spells in the championship. He can dribble past players and well as well, he started out as a winger. But for some reason he seems reluctant to do so when playing centrally, maybe he's lost confidence in his ability to do it or maybe he is being coached not to do so. His passing range is good, not as good as Carricks but stilk good. He maybe has a tendency to play the safe pass a little too often but that isn't because he can't play the more penetrating ones. He has a better shot than Carrick, as his loan spell at Watford would show. He has been played much deeper for us then he's played for other teams, this does limit his chances of having a shot. I am suprised that you've down played his technical ability though. Having played a lot of football in my youth especially in midfield I can tell you one of the hardest skills for a midfielder is making an accurate first time pass, he does this better than everyone in our squad other than Kagawa. He also does the one thing you really want from a midfield partner, he is always open for a pass. His composure is also very good. We moan that Carrick isn't good when put under pressure for the ball, well Cleverley is excellent at it. over the last two seasons in our first team he has averaged a pass completion rate of around 90% which puts him up there with the top midfield passers in the league, he also averages 70 odd passes a game so its not a distorted stat like Welbecks 91% pass completion rate of last season where he averaged only 18 passes a game.

He is a good player, not a great one. But he has potential to be better then he currently is. All i'm saying is give a young hard working committed and talanted lad a chance rather than slate him for no real reason all the time. Which some posters seem far to happy to.

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Agree with Shappy's main point although I do recognise that Cleverly needs to improve his game to make an impact in the future. I think he has time on his side though so there is every chance he will improve with better players to compete with.

Shappy's main point is spot on - people don't recognise his contribution because he neither excells in defence or in attack. But he helps the team maintain possession and keep moving it around. This is undervalued by many fans IMO and is very much a modern element of the game.

The problem going forwards is that we tend to only play 2 in CM. Therefore, he needs to be a better all-rounder to stake a claim on a starting place. He would be better in a 3 man midfield but I don't see us going down that road. In a 2 man midfield he needs to add more to the offensive part of his game with more goals and key passes.

Hopefully we buy a top CM'er this summer and Cleverly works hard to improve and prove himself. I wish him all the best and hope he proves a lot of the poster's on this site wrong over the coming years.

I think he will be at least a useful squad player for us.

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20 Apr 2013 17:11:49
Shappy, I haven't downplayed his technical ability because quite frankly I think it's good. Maybe not Zienedine Zidane good, but still acceptable for a top class footballer. The way he wraps his foot around the ball when he passes and shoots is not only eye pleasing but it's actually very effective.

As for his talent, I haven't seen him play for Watford and Wigan. I was talking about his attributes, his current abilities. I haven't seen him go past a single player, not make a good forward pass, take a single decent shot from range. I always thought that when a player is really talented, even when he is underperforming, he still comes up with flashes of his brilliance. I mean Valencia has been appaling this season, but at times you just see him bulldoze his way past opposition defenders, and you think that maybe he could get his form back.

I'm not sure i'm making my point clear. But apart from that I think he's a good player who will only improve so dissing him ( Kloot ) is as pointless as it is wrong. Its not his fault we failed to adress the problens in his position.

Mick

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A very genuine Question for RFT

Was it not you who was slating Michael Carrick last season or the season before that for his high successful pass completion due to back passes and sideways passing. ?

Look at this season

Why do you think Michael Carrick has had the best season this year?

I will tell you because he has got a runner to link up passes ahead in Tom Cleverley.

We all know SAF 2 Cm theory of a Passer and a Runner. That is why that engine oil whom you label as brand does that work of a Runner who can link up play ahead.

Somehow as Sydney pointed out TC isn't going much forward as much he did during the start of the Season.

One very important thing.
Havent you seen Michael Carricks performance go down or he isn't having best of games in absence of TC alongside him and if u really can't see it then no one can treat your blind hatred towards TC.

Shappy is absolutely bang on when he calls him Engine oil.

He needs someone like Kagawa to play in the hole with TC linking play from Carrick to him and pressing forward.

Shaun

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Potential? Are u having a laugh? He's not some 18 year old. If he was going to be outstanding, we would have seen it by now. He is an average player, playing in an average midfield. Will he fit in city, Chelsea, spurs or arsenal midfield? The answer is no. So let's stop building him up to be anything but average.
Nomidfield

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20 Apr 2013 18:19:46
I love how people big up City and Chelsea's midfield.

Would Barry get in the team at Bayern, Dortmund Barca or Madrid? No.

Milner? No.

Yaya? Ok Madrid and maybe Dortmund but he wouldn't get in at Bayern, and he's done Barca and got moved out in favour of better.

Mikel? No.

Ramires. No.

So how are City and Chelsea that much better than us?

I agree with Shappy, Shaun & Mr E. How about see what happens in the summer and give the lad next season.

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20 Apr 2013 19:05:09
I get what your saying Mick, he has talent. He has all the attributes and ability to be a top player. It all comes down to how he develops it.

NoMidfield, i'm guessing your quite young. Potential doesn't expire once a player gets over 18. All players develop and realise their potential at different ages due to many differnt factors. He is above average, every manager who has managed him has been impressed with him, they can't all be wrong.

Lets just give him some time to develop, and take the expectation off of him and stop slating him.

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Nomidfield

Not sure if you missed mine and noname's posts - but your point is flawed. Midfielders like Barry, Milner, Rodwell, Mikel & Rodriguez play a big part for the clubs you mention. Are they world class? Would they get into the top European teams?

I bet if we had Barry & Milner in our squad you'd be saying they're crap or average at best - yet you use these clubs as examples of why Cleverly is not good enough? He has the ability to be at least as good as the players I've mentioned and therefore be a successful part of a top club, even if it's as a squad player.

So in short yes he's as good as some of the midfielders in those squads and he's got the ability to get better. He also came through the academy, is on low wages and always gives his all without moaning.

We can't have 25 RVP's and Carrick's in the squad, you know.

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Mick
your first post is excellent and sums it up very well imo

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21 Apr 2013 00:07:49
Mick, I looked into a few stats to see the bigger picture, He has hit 1306 passes for us this season with a 90. 5% success rate. He has hit 109 long balls with 74 of them being accurate, this shows he has a better passing range then you give him credit for. Addmittedly he has only played 6 through balls with only 2 of those being accurate and he has only made 5 dribbbles this season. But that could be down to the fact that he's played the majority of his football as the holding midfielder sitting much deeper than he's used too. It's very hard to play a through ball when your rarely on the edge of the oppositions box. He's only got 2 assists but he has made 24 key passes so that more down to poor finishing from other players as to why he hasn't got more assists. He does only have 2 goals though from his 14 shots which needs improving.

The stats do show that he doesn't dribble much or make as many through balls as he could but then he has played deeper then he probably should. They show he is a very good passer with a good passing range though, but he needs to improve in a few areas. If he can do that then he will be a very good player. If not then a useful squad player.

But I am digressing abit from the original point of this post, which is that he doesn't deserve half the stick he gets on here. Maybe i'm abit too positive regarding our players or maybe I think its only fair to give them a proper crack of the whip. Regardless Cleverley should be given more time to develop.

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21 Apr 2013 11:06:37
That I agree on Shappy. The reason Cleverley gets too much stick, as many said it before, is that we desesperatly need him to be better than what he is, and we're not giving him any time to do so. That's what happens when you replace a legend. More often than not, you will fall short and not even have a fighting chance.

Mick

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