Manchester United Banter Archive November 20 2013

 

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20 Nov 2013 22:43:28
Ed, let's say a players club goes into the Europa league after the group stages instead of the Champions league knockout phase. If another club in the CL brought them in January, could they be registered for CL matches for that club the rest of the season? {Ed002's Note - Each club can nominate one player that can do this.}

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20 Nov 2013 15:00:12
If there are any Eds on I was wondering if my post from this morning was cut due its contents or if it just slipped through the system?

It was in reply to a thread on Ronaldo/N.Ireland.

Seems to happen often with me and my posts.

As always thanks for your time. {Ed002's Note - No idea, sorry.}

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20 Nov 2013 14:34:46
Shappy mate I understand what you want to say about Dembele, yes he would be a good squad layer and you are right we need midfielders in January.

But you are forgetting that even if Dembele would want to leave we all know how difficult Daniel Levy is to deal with. He would not allow Dembele to move to another to 4 rival especially us so easily.

So might end u wasting time and effort in signing Dembele who would be just a decent squad layer.

If we were to sign a layer for the short term I would rather we go for a Schneiderlin or a Cabaye who would cost less than or equal to Dembele and would require much less time and effort.
(If we can't get the layers we want}

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My key isn't working.

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20 Nov 2013 15:56:24
I understand the issue with the potential cost, and I understand people wanting other options.

My issue with Cabaye is he I quite slow which is the main issue we have with Fellaini and Carrick so I don't think signing another slow player will help.

Schneiderlin i'm a big fan of, but I think people are misguided if they think he'll be a cheap alternative. Southampton have plenty of money, and are under no pressure to sell one of their best midfielders. Arsenal were supposedly prepared to go to 15m to sign him in the summer and that wasn't enough to get him. So I expect he'll cost close to 20m too.

The thing I like about Dembele is that over the last few years no other midfielder in the Premier league has completed more dribbles, he also averages between 50-60 passes a game with a passing success rate of over 90%.

But its his dribbles that I think make him stand out for me, our biggest problem with our midfield atm is it is far to static. Dembele would certainly add a new element to our midfield.

That is what we need to look at, we need to bring someone who'll bring something new to our midfield that way we are.increasing our options and when we sign a top class midfielder they will still offer us an option.

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Shappy I actually agree with you.

Dembele would be a great signing in my eyes. Good engine, can pass, nice turn of pace, scores a few and can drop deeper if needed.

As you say there aren't many really attainable midfielders in january so he could be a great option for us.

As it stands he is better than all our youngsters, giggs, and maybe even fellaini in the cm role.

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Shappy how are u enjoying life in Newcastle mate? I know the weather is cr@p other than that the Geordies are a friendly bunch aren't they? There's a rumour going round that Newcastle want zaha on loan but the hold up is we are trying to get first refusal on cabaye next summer as he's set to leave then.

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20 Nov 2013 13:21:14
A few rumours in Spain surrounding Cesc Fabregas being linked to United again.

Apparently they are already looking for his replacement. It is most likely they are looking at the long term Xavi successor though, but how does Fabregas feel about not being the natural successor there? He isn't played in his favoured position, first one to be taken off or starts on the bench and the first team action he gets is in the false 9 role when Messi is out. Hasn't exactly worked out as hoped imo for him at Barcelona.

I always thought it was odd that he didn't say anything during the time in which United bid for him. Could he leave after the WC?

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I wouldn't rule anything out and we would be a likely destination, but Arsenal seem more willing to spend money so they would have a say. If he wanted a new challenge, of course he would be an option.

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20 Nov 2013 13:16:31
@Shappy

If you are looking for a stop gap player to improve the squad I think we should be looking at Xabi Alonso. Its highly unlikely, I know for various reasons, but he will add significant quality and improvement on what we already have.

@Jred

I think you might be onto something about Moyes wanting a more recognizable name for midfield, by that I mean a genuine quality player.

Some things said by Ed Woodward and Moyes about "not liking the fact that we have only RVP and Rooney in the shortlist" or "need 2 or 3 world class players" or something similar seem to suggest that. The players we went after in the summer were Fabregas, Khedira, De Rossi which suggested that they wanted to go for more proven quality rather than potential, a shift from the previous management of sorts, although the club struggled to get it done for various reasons.

Also the club has been more communicative with the fans and media and a few journalists who are close to the club have said that Ed Woodward genuinely wants to sign some top players.

Whether he and Moyes will be able to deliver it is completely another matter of course and will only be proved either way in time. Actions will speak louder than words.

Its scary to think that we can still win the league with a poor central midfield and left back, underperforming wingers, and a shaky defense. Imagine how much we would dominate with a 2-3 top players signed in those positions, especially midfield.

On a side note, Ronaldo, what a player he is, absolute class, the complete footballer. His level of physical fitness is astonishing. I hope he wins the award, he is a class above his competition.

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Redfaith
I hate the term but I think united are looking for a marquee signing

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20 Nov 2013 12:50:49
Oh and seeing as we play Spurs in a couple of weeks time hopefully Dembele won't rip us a new one like he has on several occasions, but if he does please don't suggest we sign him. Lol.

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Fellaini too ripped us a new one, I don't see him doing it to anyone else. Even for Everton his best games was against us. Dembele is a decent player, we need better.

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Shappy, I've said before that Dembele is a faster, less consistent, less good defensively and just as static version of Fellaini.

I think we need an energetic player in midfield, a playmaker to complement Fellaini in the Modric mold. Someone whose technical and creative abilities complement Fellaini brute strength and disciplined positioning.

On the other hand, do you watch the Eredivisie? And if so, what do you think of Magnus Eikrem's progress so far? I think he's been every bit as good as Jordy Clasie.

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20 Nov 2013 19:42:21
I don't waltch much Dutch football unless i'm specifically watching a certain player. So I haven't seen him yet play there yet, although he was always one of our best at youth level at the time he was with us, he just lacked the physical strength to compete in the Premier league. But I remember hearing good things said about him when he was at Molde. I think he'll spend a year or two in the Netherlands before he moves to Germany.

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20 Nov 2013 12:39:26
Having watched Germany last night it was a great chance to see Reus and Draxler in action. I was more impressed with Reus out of the two but Draxler was very good too - the question is, which would you rather see here? I think we will go for one of them in a big deal over summer.

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20 Nov 2013 10:26:29
Well we've had quite abit of discussion about Dembele on here, but I feel I may have been misunderstood by some over it.

I'm not saying Dembele is the answer to our midfield issues, just that he could be a valuable player for us if we were to mive for him.

The simple fact of the matter is we will have to sign a midfielder in January.

Carrick is out for another 6/8 weeks and there is no garentee that he'll return then or if he does that he'll be ready to play a key role. He is 32 now and an injury such as his at this stage in his career could take longer than expected to fully recover. Remember Vidic took much longer than expected to over come his injury and he is a similar age as Carrick.

Fellaini is delaying an operation but he will need to have it done in January, that will put him out for anything between 6/10 weeks depending on how the opertaion goes and how quickly he recovers from it.

Jones has pulled out of England duty with an injury.

Anderson just seems to have disapeared off the face of the earth, which with his arse is actually quite impressive. But seriously Moyes clearly doesn't rate him at all.

Fletcher is about as likely to return as I am of winning the lottery, and even if a miracle does happen he won't come back the same player as he was back in 2008/09.

That leaves us with midfield options of Cleverley and Giggs. And the scary thing is that its not inconsivable that Carrick and Fellaini will both miss most of what's left of this season.

Which means if we don't sign anyone in january then our midfield options for the rest of the season will most likely consisit of Cleverley, a fat Brazilian, a Forty year old and a young defender playing out of position.

So now it becomes apparent that we NEED a midfielder in January or we will really struggle to keep up with the top teams this year.

But the problem is that the best midfielders in the world won't be available in January as either their club won't be prepared to sell a key player half way through a season, or a player won't be prepared to risk their world cup place by moving in the january before the world cup.

So we are left with having to sign a player who either falls just short of world class or a player of potential but is unlikely to make his national team squad for the world cup. There are very few of the young players available and it would probably be a bad idea to sign a young player then place the pressure of holding our midfield together on them.

So our best option seems to be to sign a player who maybe falls just short of that world class level.

So if not Dembele then who should we sign in January? As with no midfield signing in january then we may fall short of champuons league qualification. And that will seriously effect our abilty to sign a world class midfielder in the summer.

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Fernando from Porto.

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I agree with you there Shappy we do need at least 1 player my only problem with Dembele is what if he couldn't handle being at United, christ he could become as second cleverley and chances of us buying yet another midfielder are then almost zero

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You're spot on, Shappy. This is potentially a likely scenario, if the worst was to happen, which is why midfield reinforcements should have (yet again) been top of our list this summer. We messed about too much, and January isn't a good time to target the CMs we need. I don't expect any midfielders to come in until the summer.

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I agree with all of that, but as I said in my earlier email, it's disappointing to have to recognize that this might not have been an issue at all if the club had not been spending one Ronaldo every year on financing costs!

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I am not interested in paying £20m+ for another Belgian who offers little more than we have already got. I want us to send £30m on a player that will make a difference. Gundogan, Koke or Herrera are players that will make a difference to our side, not sure Dembele will. We shouldn't be buying players who are marginally better than what we already have, we should be buying the best that are available to purchase. There is a reason RM want Gundogan and Barcelona want and Koke. There is also a reason why Barcelona made Herrera the player to replace Cesc if he was sold. These are the types of players we need. Busy, box to box types that will burst forward with the ball. We need an upgrade on Cleverley, not another Fellaini.

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20 Nov 2013 11:45:06
Fernando could be a good option, I just wonder whether he drives forward enough, he likes to sit deep. Our main issue is that midfield is far too static, we need some movement and drive. I think Fernando is just a better version of Fellaini imo.

Dembele is excellent at running with the ball from midfield. And I know people doubt his quality but he regulary gets into the Belgium national team which contains other midfielders such as Witsel, Fellaini and Defour. So he can't be that poor.

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I'm with Syd, let's not waste money. Top class players or don't bother. let's not knee jerk

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20 Nov 2013 12:18:11
The summer has been and gone and its pointless moaning about what we didn't do then. We need to focus on what we can do now. With our current injuries we are actually in worst shape now then we were the day the window slammed shut, and it doesn't loom like its going to improve anytime soon unless we bring in a new player to cover for the long term injuries we have suffered.

Syd I know exactly the level of players we should aim for, but very few if any are available in January Koke and Gundogan definately won't be, Herrera could be but only for 35m. And to he honest he is the poorest of the three and signing Herrera in January will near enough rule out a summer move for one of Gundogan or Koke.

So maybe its best we go for a powerful box to box player in January, as we have no one in our squad like that. That way we can make a move for a player such as Gundogan or Koke in the summer to give us a complete set of midfield options then.

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If we want a unhappy CM from spurs i'd take Sandro

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Shappy, people aren't questioning whether or not Dembele would be a good addition to the squad. What people are questioning is why we would spend upwards of £20m for a good squad player when we could sign a top class guaranteed starter for another £5-10m.

You're talking as if Dembele is a cheap, safe option. He isn't, he is a very pricy squad player. We made this mistake with Young, and I'm not saying that Dembele would flop like Young has, but there is no point paying big for a squad player when we can secure a top class player for slightly more.

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20 Nov 2013 12:42:26
No one wants a knee jerk reaction but we could very well be looking at the scenario that come January that we could be left to deal with most of the rest of the season with just Cleverley, Anderson and Giggs as midfield options. And when you consider that Anderson can't complete 90 mins and Giggs is 40yo then really we will be relying on Cleverley as our only midfielder.

This is as much about having midfield numbers and options as it is about the quality of those we sign. We could have 30-35 games to play with just Anderson Cleverley and Giggs as our midfield options. And bear in mind that two of those three are like to leave/retire in the summer. Which means even if you discount the injuries to Fellaini and Carrick come the summer we are going to have three first team midfielders in Carrick Fellaini and Cleverley of which one of those will be almost 33.

We need 2/3 midfielder come the summer. So why not bring in a quality squad/first team option in January as we can't buy a player of the highest quality in January. That way we at least give ourselves the best chance of having something close to a successful season.

Or of course we could sacrifice this season completely and put our faith in the Glazers to buy at least two world class midfielders in the summer.

Lets live in this little place I like to call the real world.

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20 Nov 2013 12:49:12
Danny, there are no world class 25-30m players available in January. And we NEED a player in january or we can write off the season after christmas.

And there really is no need for Dembele to be that expensive. Spurs want Hernandez, we can just say a straight swop or no deal. With our record of selling players for well below their actual value I wouldn't expect us to get much more than 12-15m for Hernandez if we were to sell him. Even if he is probably worth closer to 18-20m. So a swop deal would be a cheap alternative.

If Spurs want more than 15-18m then there is no point if pursuing it any further.

But the fact of the matter remains we will have to sign someone in January or we will badly suffer this season. And with few options available imo Dembele becomes a real option.

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Syd,

I agree, but what would you propose we do if those top-class midfielders go elsewhere? We CANNOT keep starting season after season with this same midfield - there are other players out there who'd improve our midfield. History tells us that if Madrid or Barca want a player, they get them - I don't see us being able to rival those teams for Gundogan, Koke or whoever else they earmark as one of their future first teamers. So what do we do then?

Give Anderson a new, improved contract?

Persuade Giggs to sign another extension?

We need to act and have a Plan B if and when these targets go elsewhere.

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Herrera is available for that amount. He is a top class midfielder and provides exactly what we lack. So why would we sign Dembele instead of him?

As I've already said if we swap Hernandez we will need to sign a new striker because Hernandez is the only outright striker in our squad aside from RVP. So we would just be swapping one problem for another.

If we need to sign a cm in Jan, then Herrera is the top choice. Dembele is a slightly cheaper option, but he is not a better one.

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I would rather pass on Dembele and keep what we have until the summer. Then look to buy a much better player in the summer. Dembele isn't going to add much to what we already have now and it would be another £25m wasted.

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With regard fellaini I read that their is a two year window for his operation. He won't be absent if that's the case and may even get a chance to settle in the team

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Red Sky, should we have bought Fellaini in the summer for £30m or should we have gone and bought someone like Herrera for an extra few million? Someone we desperately need?

MU need to strike a deal with a top midfielder between now and the summer or wait until the summer. We should not be buying more Fellaini's that will improve the squad, but not the first team.

Anderson out, Herrera in would be a good bit of business. We can try to sign Gundogan and Koke now until the summer, but when they choose to go elsewhere or they turn down MU, then we should sign Herrera.

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Sydney, we need both.

Fellaini is not average. He is a very good, solid player, who needs an energetic playmaker next to him. I think we'll see the best in him when he plays next to Cleverley.

We needed Herrera to replace Cleverley as first choice, and a partnership of Fellaini, Herrera would be great. fellaini would provide the physical element, and would go around mopping up loose balls and stopping attacks in their tracks, while herrera would be allowed to drive forward with the ball, maximizing his effect on the game using his energy and technical ability.

Shappy, we don't need Dembele because if he is to come, it would be to replace Fellaini. He doesn;t have the passing abilities or energy levels to be a play maker. He is too static. A midfield of him and fellaini would be just as static as the one we have at the moment and while he can drive forward, he's not good enough at it to warrant a place just because of it.
All in all, he's too similar to Fellaini for the 2 of them to play together

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Syd,

I think youll find I was one of those baffled by us signing Fellaini instead of Herrera, especially given the price of both.

If we quibbled over a few million when pulling out of the deal for Herrera (when we KNEW his cost the day we contacted his club), what's to stop that happening again? Think how much Gundogan for example, is going to go for - its going to be a bidding war and one we will not win.

I ask you again - what happens if Gundogan, Koke and Herrera go elsewhere? Do we face reality and sign a player off 'list B', if you like, or do we give Anderson and Giggs new contracts and start 2014/15 with the same midfield options?

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Red Sky, what happens if like Oezil, Gundogan becomes available and RM look elsewhere and because we have wasted £25m on Dembele, we no longer have the funds and space in the squad for him? Now we have Fellaini and Dembele and Carrick all fighting it out for one spot, whilst Cleverley is still playing alongside one of them. Dembele is not what we need. So why buy him?

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Red Sky, if you were baffled by the Fellaini signing, then why would you want us to buy Dembele? We need a Herrera type, not another Fellaini type.

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Red Sky, what happens if like Oezil, Gundogan becomes available and RM look elsewhere and because we have wasted £25m on Dembele, we no longer have the funds and space in the squad for him? Now we have Fellaini and Dembele and Carrick all fighting it out for one spot, whilst Cleverley is still playing alongside one of them. Dembele is not what we need. So why buy him?

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Syd,

I'm not particularly bothered about Dembele mate. My point I'm trying to make is, we need to get down off our high-horses with this attitude that only THE VERY BEST, world-class talent will do at OT. because so far, we aren't doing a very good job of attracting these elite players - my point is, we may well need to consider other options than likes of Gundogan, Koke and Herrera.

As if those players do go elsewhere, we either sign someone off a B list or go into yet another season with a weakened midfield with Carrick & Giggs even older.

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Red Sky,
your last post is spot on. We have been spoiled over the last 20 years, and many of our fan have become football snobs. There are LOADS of players out there who would improve our midfield significantly, but we are too good for them according to some of our fans. I almost posted something similar to your car analogy from earlier but couldn't be bothered. Not sure about the Porche bit though, I think some of our fans would go straight to the Bugatti Veyron!
The obsession on here with "world class" is getting silly. I mean, what is world class anyway? In my eyes world class would refer to maybe the best 2 or 3 players in the world in each position. That gives you a very small pool of players to choose from. And as much as I love them, Manchester United are not the only team in the world looking to sign new players.
If only world class is good enough for United then we really are in the rubbish because we need a whole new team.

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Betty Swollocks,

That's my point. Come the summer, we are going to need at least 2 CM players (if we have the money) - so when Gundogan, Koke and Herrera decide Barca, RM are the better option, we have 2 choices.

Look further down the list and strengthen what we have, or go into 2014/15 with an even weaker CM line-up.

I don't see how any fans can justify the latter!

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20 Nov 2013 08:45:14
62 today, and a fan since 62 too! So be nice, in your responses please.

On the Dembele discussion - SAF obviously decided to take a pass on him, because in his opinion at least, he wasn't good enough. He may be better than what we have left in midfield now, but, if that's the case, I think that's a sad commentary. United is still a good team, and domestically, on our day, we can play with anyone: but it must be glaringly obvious that we have dropped in the pecking order when it comes to European powers. That is surely largely as a result of chronic under-investment in top talent. 650m pounds has gone out in financing and debt related expenses since the Glazers took over in 2005 - that's one Ronaldo a year!

Continuing success has allowed them to so far to fend off the fans opposed to them. They have Sir Alex's special talent to thank for that. But if United falls to the level of regularly not qualifying for the ECL, there will be serious consequences financially and amongst the supporters. I have to hope they are clever enough business men to know that there is no long term franchise value in football because there's no closed market franchise system in our sport. Player or financial mismanagement can and does lead to disaster. Once proud clubs are now not so proud. Rangers, Leeds, Portsmouth? Liverpool?

As many have correctly said on this site, there is no divine right to ongoing success. That may be true, but success is what we crave and United supporters have come to expect it over the last 25 years. We are at risk of falling behind to teams with more money for wages, transfers and better tactics. Let us hope it will not come to this and that the Glazers will create a financial environment where the cash flow our club generates is spent to a much larger extent on the team rather than squandered in financing costs. and of course, that Moyes knows what he's doing.

There's only one United! They could be languishing in the middle of the Northern Premier League and I'd still support them, but that would not be the case for most of the 650m global fan base they claim to have.

Birthday rant over.

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20 Nov 2013 10:28:43
Happy Birthday mate, have a great day.

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Happy birthday peashooter have a great day

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We are never in any danger of going bust birthday boy. You can relax on that front. We will be turning over £500m+ in a couple of years time. The clubs you mentioned are much smaller than us and make much less income. MU seem to be in a very good position financially, but before the Glazers start to take dividends (which they will), I hope they have paid off most of the debt first.

Well happy birthday Peashooter. Take it easy on the Jack Daniels ;) {Ed007's Note - Happy birthday Peashooter.}

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Happy birthday mate

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