Manchester United Banter Archive December 21 2013

21 Dec 2013 22:31:49
was at the game today!
can I mention that clev looks a different player when he is moved forward more

good result good performance

Cleverley is an attacking midfielder by trade, he needs to be playing closer to the opponants area rather than in our own half.

The younger pairing at CB pushed him higher up the pitch, and it has helped him. His last three games have been the best for us in over 18 months and its since we have had a combination of Evans Jones or Smalling at the back. I really yhink if we are to improve we need to sort out the lack of pace in our CB's. Which unfortunately means the end of Vidic as well as Rio.

I was very impressed with Evans and Dmalling. Jones did well by dropping in between when necessary. This is something that I hope Fellaini can do when he makes his return. Cleverly too has been excellent, he's been more forward thinking and adventurous. Back to the player he used to be before Kevin Davies tackle a couple of years back!

Jones is still rough round the edges but I think he is looking like a real option in the middle. He is far more skilful than he gets credit for.

AJH, I have noticed some of Jones' quick turns in midfield and I like his shoulder charges on other midfielders. Something we have been missing since Keane. It's just a shame 50% of his shoulder charges are deemed fouls by some referees. He doesn't pull out of any challenge which is a breath of fresh air, however he does come away limping after some of the challenges and he is injury prone so I suspect we will miss him a lot during seasons.

Syd, I think he is a real talent and a quick learner. Still think his best position is centre half but his progress in midfield has been great. A bit of Nobby about him with more skill

21 Dec 2013 17:43:56
I thought the first half today was brilliant, one of our best performances of the season. We pressed, we won the ball back, we tackled hard, we went forward fast and kept the ball brilliantly. Januzaj and Welbeck were excellent, Welbeck's extra finishing training seems to have helped him. I've also been really impressed with Cleverly, he has become a bit more adventurous.

Great goal too by Young - although its still not enough for him to be here past January.

21 Dec 2013 17:27:39
Well that was a much better performance, we could have scored 4, 5 or 6 even. Hernandez goal was never offside, had the linesman been on the other side of the pitch then he would have seen him being in line with the last man. Valencia should have scored and if he was a bit more accurate with his final ball today then we could have had a couple more goal scoring chances at least.

What was good about the game today is not only were we solid in defence, our attack was probing and potent at times but we dominated the midfield.

Now that's a funny thing considering we had Jones who's a defender, the much maligned Cleverley and Rooney dropping back to help. The same players who have not been able to win the midfield for the last couple of years. So why did it work this time?

Well I have a theory, and it has nothing to do with the midfield at all, but the defence.

Today we had Evans and Smalling at centre back, both Rio and Vidic were not playing. This ment that our centre backs were able to push up and not sit deep, this in turn forced our midfield further up the pitch and made it easier to close down the space and keep control of the midfield.

You could see how high our centre backs were for Cole's goal, Neither Rio or Vidic would ever have been pushing that high. Now of course it does make you a little open to balls played over the top, but I think that is a sacrifice we have to make if it means we have more control over the middle of the pitch.

Neither Rio or Vidic have played in our last three games and all have been wins, and the performances have been getting better and better as the team have grown in confidence on the back of these wins.

So I am going to suggest that we need to move BOTH Rio and Vidic on in the summer and replace them with a younger quicker player who is able to play a high line and give our midfield a fighting chance.

Eliaquim Mangala would be ideal but if he's too expensive then Bruno Martins Indi or Fabian Schar look like great players ready to step up.

I see where you're coming from shappy i'd agree too, I wouldn't go for Mangala personally, I'd go for Iñigo Martínez, Nkolou or Benatia, in that order, all would improve our defence greatly

Matinez is better passer than mangala but Mangala is a better defender. Zuma is also in there if you are looking for pure defensive ability who can play higher up the pitch.

Have not watched Nkolou enough but the Schar fits the mold of the player we should be looking at. Liverpool are supposedly interested in buying him and so is arsenal.

Would just like to say I love your posts Shappy, I'm 18, still learning about the game but what you post makes a lot of sense.

I think if we combined what you say with a CM capable of speeding up our play (still think we move the ball slowly for a MU team at home) and supporting the midfield (box to box) then we would be a force to be reckoned with. Rooney and/or RVP could then push higher and we would really get the fear factor back to OT imo.

Martinez is a great looking prospect and he has already scored for us. lol.

Zouma looks a beast, but I think we need a player who is better at passing out from the back.

N'Koulou is an odd one, in some games he looks amazing and in others the whole game seems to pass him by. His passing from the back though is excellent. But I wonder about his defensive skills. His positioning is normally good but he seems weak in the air, he may get away with that in France but in England he will get exposed and targetted at set pieces.

Mangala has it all, strong as an Ox with pace to burn and a decent passer of the ball. But if Porto will demand top dollar for him and considering that we probably will be looking to sign 4/5 maybe even 6 players I can see us having the cash to be held to ransom by them for him.

Benatia was a player I thought was perfect for us before he joined Roma, but again now he has joined them he will likely cost upward of 20m to sign him now.

Thats why I feel the best three to target are Martins Indi, Schar and Garay.

If we want experiance then Garay is the player to sign, we've scouted him extensively, he is one of the best passing CB's in the world atm and he has good pace and is solid in the air. Benfica normally demand a high price for their players but seeing as he is out of contract in the summer we should be able to get him for below 10m which for a player of his ability is a bargin.

If we want to go for a more youthful player then it has to be one of Martins Indi who many in Holland consider to be the new Stam, he could be available for as little as 6m.

Or we should go for Fabian Schar, who has impressed me more than any young up and coming CB this season, he is strong in the air and in the tackle, he has a canny knack for knowing when to go to ground and when to stay on his feet, his passing is very good and he can bring the ball out well from the back, as well as thumping in the odd goal. For me he is exactly the kind of player who looks very talented when playing for a smaller club but we hesitate and he moves to a club such as Porto and then we will have to play a fortune for him in a season or twos time.

For me it has to be either Schar or Garay.

22 Dec 2013 00:23:32
Covey, if we could get someone like Gundogan, Rakitic or Pjanic to play in midfield as well as bringing in a quicker CB such as Garay or Schar then we would be very strong through the middle.

I'd also like to see a fully fit Fellaini playing alongside the new CM. If he was able to play higher due to having quicker CB then he really could be a beast for us. He would do the same job Jones did for us today but Fellaini is better on the ball and more spacially aware.

Then if we could get one of Alex Sandro or Ricardo Rodriguez for LB cutting out the weakness on our left hand side while stilk providing a great over lap.

I think Januzaj works better on the right than he does the left, so i'd have him there with Valencia as a more defensive option. Then we just need someone else for the left, in an ideal world we'd go for Marco Reus, but seeing as Gundogan is likely to leave and Reus is happy playing for his home town club then we should look to either Draxler(although he will likely end up costing too much) or Konoplyanka who I rate very highly.

The only other player I feel we should make a move for is Kevin Volland but that's only if we lose one or both of Kagawa and Hernandez. Volland is a fantastic little player, he's quick and clever and deadly infront of goal. He is very complete for someone so young. He can play anywhere in attack, on either wing or as the main striker or in behind.

If we got Rodriguez, Schar, Gundogan, Konoplyanka and Volland then i'd be very happy.

In an ideal world shappy ;).

I love Garay as a player I could see him being epic for us, Mangala too but I don't know if he is available to us because there will be a bidding war for him that I'm not confident we can win.

For me Garay, Draxler and Coentrao would be amazing. Then possibly the addition of Voller.

Interesting you say you think Januzaj is better on the right, what gives you that impression?

Having watched him for the youth team over the last couple of years its clear he works better when he can cut in onto his left foot.

I think long term he will be a No.10, but he needs to find his feet in england and get used to first team football, that is why he'll play wide for a few seasons then move infield imo.

But he is better when he's infield rather than going around the outside of players. His crossing is good but his passing in field is so much better he also has a great shot on him.

We want him in the box not on the touch line, so playing him on the right and allowing him to cut in with Rafael overlapping to provide the width is ideal.

Shappy

I can't ever see us paying what is reported Mangala's fees and he is more likely to end up going to chelsea or nowhere, with everyone refusing to pay that sort of money.

Zuma defensively is just as good but he is a terrible passer and would not fit the mold of ball playing centre back.

I think ronochia is also a good player and most defenders, who play in italy are generally good with the ball because of their system of 3-5-2 which many teams deploy.

Varrane is also one of my favorites but will never be available to us.

21 Dec 2013 17:13:37
I think the January transfer window will be pivotal this year for us. With the World Cup this summer players transfer fees will become overinflated especially if they have a good World Cup. We will have to perhaps overpay in Jan but it would be better to go get the players we want now before they go to the World Cup.

Sandra/Baines/ coantreo - lb
Gundogan/Vidal/ Herrera/koke - cm
Mangala/Garay -cb

I think the transfer window is massive for us, difficult time but fingers crossed

Moyes has just said we might not be buying in jan due to players not being available. I am not sure what to make of that and let's see what sort of player send up moving in jan by other clubs.

{Ed002's Note - What he means is that the club will buy the right players at the right price. They won't buy for the hell of it to appease the fans.}

Exactly as I expected, and any fan with any common sense.

I don't want us to panic buy. What I have a problem with is our club continuously treating us like fools.

"January window will be when we do most of our business", according to Ed Woodward.

Yet anyone with common sense knew this wouldn't be the case and we'd have to wait til summer, if that.

Spin from a spin doctor, nothing to see here.

Ed002

He has said that quite often and fair enough. Might be an advanced warning that some of the things they are working on is not maybe possible or just trying to keep things under wraps.

God created
I think he has just said what most fans have been saying, that it is difficult to buy top talent in January

21 Dec 2013 13:54:27
Can't believe the arrogance on this site at times which I believe is born from fans only knowing success.
United will be top by November they say, arsenal will drop of United will finish above Liverpool, they tell us week after week.
Yet here we are at Xmas with all the same problems.
Moyes was always going to take time to settle.
Our back 4 isn't great
Our cm is awful
Our wide men aren't good enough.
We are probably missing 2 top quality players and a couple of others.
And our tactics look a bit out dated.

So far this season there have been Better team's why should that change?
Why should United suddenly turn in to a great team while all others become poor?

Is it because we are United and we always finish 1or 2
?

I don't know if this is a reaction after watching other teams play some great football but I'll have to agree with you anyhow. The worrying part for me is not the results but the type of football we are playing.

Yeah you are right jred why don't these people just stop complaining and accept mediocrity we are only Man United not like we are a massive club or anything!

It's called optimism and it's called supporting your team, it's not arrogance. If you have such little faith in your team that you believe Liverpool will finish higher than us then that's your prerogative. However I believe my team will accumulate more points than Liverpool this season. If you do not believe we will then that's your opinion, not fact. Us optimistic lads have just as much right to be on here as you pessimists.

Jred

I am assuming you are referring to what I said down the page. If anything I have never been that bullish about this team and even last year believe City should have won the league if not for instability at that club. I am also not as pessimistic when we lose or drop points.

I never predicted points margin against any rivals or old foes:) I still believe a healthy united team with RVP, Rooney, Carrick is better than this liverpool team. We have had the misfortune of new management, injuries, awful schedule all arrive at the same time and hence why we are where we are.

Let's wait and see where we are in early/mid January and nothing to do with arrogance. I also see glimpses of some sort of form coming into the team with other players besides rvp and rooney.

I posted this the other day, out of 25 games this year rvp has started 8, we have won 7 and drawn one. That is an interesting stat and although I don't necessarily subscribe to stats, in his case I think it is relevant.

I also do agree that we need to bring in players in January and told 2 mids are on the way, with one being announced the first week of the window. so let's see if true.

"Why should United suddenly turn in to a great team while all others become poor?"

Why have United 'suddenly' become a poor team when we won the league with the same squad just six month's ago? United do not have to become great, they need to get the confidence and belief back and rival teams (Arsenal/Liverpool) need to play their difficult fixtures for this half of the season, IE City & Chelsea like we already have. Both MU and Liverpool will drop points between now and the end of the season, I am confident that my club can drop less. That's not arrogance, that's belief. I believe we will get out of the rut we are in and I believe we will start to put some winning runs together.

God created
Your actual one of the last it was directed at, I think you normally give a balanced view of all teams.
But read some of the replies above says it all really.
And it's the same attitude every week, people suggesting arsenal aren't title contenders but United are etc etc.

Imo city, Chelsea and arsenal have better players better managers with better tactics at the moment and are more than capable of finishing above us.
Liverpool for me for a number of reasons are capable of finishing above us, not saying they will but they are capable of it.
Does having what I think is a balanced opinion make me less of a United fan?
Or should I believe we are better than everyone else no matter what?

Syd
It's not optimism it biased blind faith

Sydney, remind us how many points you said we would finish ahead of Liverpool. You know have revised that view but say. We will still finish above them. It's not about being optimistic or pessimistic but realistic. We have been generally poor this year and Liverpool, amongst others, have been playing well. There's optimism and there blind faith. As you know, I genrerally give the doom mongers a hard time, particularly the drama queens but right now, we are not in the game. To keep denying what your eyes tell you is plain silly. I'm with Jred

Jred, agreed. I posted last week and I said the worst thing any club, team, manager can be is apathy.
I think some are expecting is to start tearing teams apart, when the truth, is we are a team who I have 6 or 7 excellent players but the rest are below average players.
I don't think Moyes's tactics have helped, and I don't think his training methods have either.
I don't expect Liverpool, city, chelsea or arsenal to be dropping too many silly points like we did against wba, Everton, Newcastle, Cardiff. Southampton.
So I think it is a battle for 4th spot at best, and I think that is highly unlikely outcome in view of the teams above us, who are all big teams with resources.
Things have changed. Other teams have strengthened considerably, brought managers who know how to win, while we have stagnated and brought in Moyes.
I don't think we can just buy a couple of players and be back to normal, the competition is greater and more wide spread. So winning the league every year is no longer a reality. I think if we are being honest with ourselves, we are the 6th best team at the moment. We have some very good individuals, but we're not playing as a team.
But the biggest positive is the quality of our youngsters, we really need to start playing these guys, enkangeme, Perreira, Wilson, Pearson coupled with powell, lingard. These have all got fantastic futures. If you're good enough, you're old enough.
So why do we insist on playing nani, young, anderson etc? I think the manager has got to be brave and start axing the deadwood we've got. It is disappointing to see these useless players playing week in week out, when there are so many excellent youngsters waiting for their chances.
Syd, as positive as you would like to be, we will not finish above Liverpool this year. That is the reality I'm afraid.

Syd
Every year I've listened to Liverpool fans say this was there year and laughted at them, I respected the ones who said no where not good enough.

You believe this will happen but why blind faith?

United aren't a poor team but as I have said before one of fergys best achievements was winning the league last with this squad. I haven't seen anything that would change my mind.

Can AJH and Jred please explain to me how it's 'blind faith' that I think MU will finish above Liverpool? There are 21 more games (63 points) after this one and there are eight points separating us and Liverpool (if we win today). They play City and Chelsea AWAY. We play Hull & Norwich AWAY. Liverpool need to come to OT.

So why is it blind faith to think we can overtake Liverpool? Utter nonsense and pure negativity.

Jred

Same here as I find your views quite balanced and quite honest and in many ways agree with lot's of what you say. I got a lot of flack last year for not being the most optimistic guy when looking ahead :)

I think we are better than what most here think but it is drastically different to the United we are used to from yester years and that is what I believe most struggle with. I don't think besides city there is any outstanding team in the league.

I don't think this is a league winning team but still believe our first 11 are better than everyones but city and donjt agree with your view of chelsea and arsenal being better and would say we are on par with arsenal and chelsea. Where they have weaknesses we have strength and vice versa. It will all come down to injuries and form when the top teams play each other.

I think the January window is quite significant in terms of finding a couple of missing pieces and can make a big difference as the season goes on.

Syd
Was it 20 points you said we would beat them by?
Remember we had this discussing 2 month ago and look where we are now Liverpool are top!
Same goes with arsenal how you can argue they are not title contenders and we are is beyond me .
No matter how well Liverpool play and how badly United play this year it's the same rubish and where are United where are Liverpool? You have been wrong all season .
United will be top by November 5, based on What?
United will be top by December based on what?
United will be top by Xmas based on what?


Tell me look at your post today have you give 1 football reason why over the next 21 games Liverpool will drop more points than United.
Or that arsenal will because your last argument was " they always do" .
What did you base your opinion that we would beat Liverpool by 20 points on?

Whether SAF was managing or not is irrelevant Jred. It's still the same squad therefore those same players are capable of playing better.

Syd, we have played 17 games and lost 5 of them. We bought 1 player in the summer who can't get in the team. Our older players are now even older. With the occasional exception, we struggle through games. Rumours are rife about RVP wanting off due to DM. Let's be honest, would we have won the league without RVPlast year? Possibly not. We now have him injured with niggles and allegedly unhappy.

Putting all that aside. if we were playing well and being unlucky then I would share your optimism but on the whole we are not. We lost at home to West Brom, to Everton, and to Newcastle. This ism about more than confidence. I respect be your view and love your optimism but I have seen nothing that says we will get back into the top 4 this year. I'd be delighted for us to go on a run and make me look foolish but after 17 games, we have lost nearly a third of them so the current evidence says something needs to urgently change.

Syd
At the start of the season would you of though Liverpool would be top and United 7 by Xmas?
Imagine the stick you would of given a scouser if he had come on the site saying that . 20 points maybe.
But you would of been wrong!
Yet nothing you have seen over the past 4 month has changed your mind?
Blind faith .
You often get it wrong yet always think your right . Blind faith

"What did you base your opinion that we would beat Liverpool by 20 points on?"

We finished 28 points ahead of them last season and our two squads are almost unchanged. I still do not believe Arsenal are genuine title contenders, just like I do not believe Liverpool are. I believe both will fade away and City will win the league this season.

21 Dec 2013 17:17:04
NoMid Moyes knows who the deadwood is, not much he can do till next week. The main thing is trying to find buyers. 6 weeks ago who would have been interested in Young? Now scoring crackers in consecutive games might make a few desperate managers think. Hence playing them.

And you want to throw in a load of 18 year old kids? Into the pressure of a battle for top 4? Its too much for them. If their good enough their old enough you say, only none of them are good enough yet.

Syd
R u that daft yes it's the same squad which for arguments let's say is as great as you think but the problem is has it got better especially after losing fergy because arsenal, Liverpool, city and Chelsea have.

You may be right but to dismiss teams like arsenal and Liverpool who are playing very well while your own team is not setting the world alight really is the most annoying type of fan.

Tbh, I agree with syd. I don't see liverpool finishing above us. Even though they are eight points ahead I still believe we will finish 10+ points ahead of them. The only teams I see winning the league are utd chelsea and city with city being favourites, but with the way results have been going and the inconsistency of every team don't put utd out the race

And you said Fellaini would be our Yaya Toure, do you still believe that Jred? I said he didn't suit our style of play and guess what? He doesn't.

Did YOU believe we would be 7th and and Liverpool would be 1st? Of course you didn't. It's not blind faith. I believe we will get our mojo back and we will finish above Liverpool.

MrE

100% agree. No way he can play the best 11 with the fixture list and our young guys are not ready or good enough.

We are like the walking wounded at the moment with Welbeck now looking like he is out and Johny evans looks like he he might have picked up a knock and horrendous tackle on Hernandez and hope he is ok.

We should be congratulating the manager for playing guys like young which looks like a great selection given his last 2 games and not criticize him. We need the squad who by many opinions is one of the best in the league to show their worth and carry us until we get people back.

Kudos to Cleverly as I have not been his biggest fan but he has really played well the last 2 games when most needed.

AJH

Chelsea was gifted a draw to wb at home. Fellaini has joined late and struggled for fitness and then has had injuries and not fit for selection. God knows there would not be many players with the current team if we judge them on their first 6 or 7 games.

I am not worried about the losses to everton, newcastle, wb as what is done is done and believe we will win the return fixtures with a semi available best 11.

I do agree we need a fully fit RVP because he is lethal when he is on form and different to anyone else we have in the squad.

I do also agree it is not about confidence but more about key players being available.

I hope rvp's groin injury does not turn into something more serious that requires surgery which is the case with many of them when they are serious.

Syd
Clutching at straws again.
For about the third time I said last Jan Fellaini would move to a top team and play the yaya role .
But I've enjoyed winding you up I'm stuck with the kids and bored.

Out of all our arguments I really hope the one you finally get right is this.
Enjoy the site I'm finally of out for a pint

"Syd
R u that daft yes it's the same squad which for arguments let's say is as great as you think but the problem is has it got better especially after losing fergy because arsenal, Liverpool, city and Chelsea have."

LOL, you call me daft yet you think losing 'fergy' makes our squad better or worse? That is a very dumb thing to say in itself. How can a manager of a club make a squad better or worse LOL.

I have never said our team is great, I have always said we are 2-3 top quality players away from being where we needed to be.

I don't get wound up Jred. I am always a happy and positive person. I actually enjoy our discussions and I look forward to trying to decipher each of your posts. Enjoy your pint, and remember to drink responsibly ;)

Lol this really is my last post.
I honestly don't enjoy them syd, you post your views as facts and offer very little football knowledge to back them up . Through this whole debate of arsenal United Liverpool your argument has been "I think it will happen so it will" or "it happened last year "
Have a look at God created or shappy or few others that actually back up there points with a bit of football knowledge.
Have a look at how many of the questions you actually answered rather than just give an other point of view .
Have we had discussion where u have actually been right?
Not that you will admit to being wrong;)

Although today I have honestly found the whole thing funny

Look forward to your snide remark and lasted statement
I will read it in the morning should brighten up my hangover.
Also there is no fun in drinking responsibly

21 Dec 2013 19:19:05
Have to say i'm with syd.
I strongly believe we will finish above liverpool.
Its not that hard to see we have had a very poor start and theirs been excellent with suarez on fire. But we are starting to gain a little momentum, defence and mid starting to look stronger and more confident. If we can pick up another couple wins over xmas(more than doable) and add a couple signings in Jan (inevitable) and get carrick and rvp back then it all starts to look different.
Also we've played city away and chelsea. They have city and chelsea away next 2 games, have to come to old trafford and suarez will not stay at this level all season and there is also a very likely possibility he will serve a ban of some kind when things aren't going his way.
All points to a higher placed finish than them in my opinion.

Jred, I guess we agree on something. There is no fun drinking responsibly.

21 Dec 2013 09:22:42
Ill back moyes all the way, but I just thought I'd put this out there! What would people have thought to Carlos quieros succeeding fergie instead?

Nope. He reccommended bebe. Just imagine a transfer window.

Nani and Anderson were his as well.

Hard to say as his spell at Real Madrid was very poor. He was with us at a time when we had the world best front line and scholes running the show so many a coaches can look like geniuses when you have those type of players to work with.

Did he really? Didn't know that. I hope we get him off the wage bill he's absolutely useless

Fair play. I was thinking more on the tactical side of things as oppose to transfers really :p but some fair views