Manchester United Banter Archive February 21 2015

21 Feb 2015 20:18:58
If anyone thought, after last season's debacle, that this season was going to be plain sailing I'd like some of what you're having.
LvG has attempted 3 at the back. The response was emphatic and widespread. Howls of derision and demands for a return to the halcyon days of a back 4.
This was, (upon the return from injury of several key players, remember) eventually delivered. The diamond, I was told by many, was golden. It was the future. However, performances have not been of a high standard. "No width!" Was the howl. "Why's LvG playing the diamond?? It's too narrow, we play with wingers!".
Rooney in midfield, another LvG faux pas which was to blame for poor performances. RvP and Falcao cannot play together, any mug can see that! Why would a manager persevere with the outlandish idea of pairing 2 of world football's leading marksmen in the same team?
Both issues were resolved today as LvG dropped Falcao and duly moved Rooney forward into a centre forward role.
The result? LvG has caused a defeat with his ineptitude.
At what point do his players shoulder the blame? why are they unable to execute any formation attempted? they should not be alien concepts to them.
I love listening to van Gaal talking to the press etc. How anyone can listen to the man and think "clueless" is utterly beyond me. He clearly has a deep understanding of football that is far beyond yours or mine.
He inherited a quivering, decimated wreck of a squad that was devoid of confidence and ideas. Doesn't he deserve the time his pedigree has earned? He has steadied the ship. That was job one. Having done so whilst overseeing a complete overhaul of the squad and attempting to establish a completely new ethos and (I know) "philosophy" is quietly impressive, in my opinion.
He is well within sight of fulfilling his remit for the season of a top 4 berth and a tilt at a trophy. What were we all expecting after last year? Domestic treble?
Rome, as pointed out earlier, was not built in a day.

21 Feb 2015 20:37:30
Slow possession based football hoping that someone does something special.
This is how lvg teams have played for a number of years.
Its not pretty to watch but it works to an extent, a couple of titles in the last 15 years.

21 Feb 2015 21:22:18
Jred, can you see slow, possession based football working in the premier league? I think van Gaal has been caught off guard by the fact that football is generally played with strength and pace in the premier league, I reckon he thought he could come here and play a more tactical, European style of football and teams would roll over, I think he is finding out the hard way that there are no easy games in England.

21 Feb 2015 21:27:54
Sam, I give you a 'virtual' round of applause for that post. I completely agree with all of it. I started a post very similar earlier in in reply to Bazza down the page. I accidentally sent it before it was finished and asked the Ed not to post it. I won't bother rewriting it because you have just done it for me!!!
Its about time the anti LvG brigade stopped blaming the manager for everything, and looked a little closer at our over paid, under performing players. Sure, the manger has made some strange decisions and must take some of the blame. But week in, week out, this group of players is letting the fans, the manager and the club down.
We have become a victim of desperation, and succumbed to the impossible demands of instant success. We have enjoyed and unbelievable 20 odd years under Fergie. But that is in the past. The game has changes dramatically in the last few years with the input of "new money", and the SAF era, we will never the the like of again.
In my view, for Manchester United the move forwards, we need to stop looking at the past. Whether or not LvG is the man to take us forwards I don't know. But in my view, to enable long term success, we may need to sacrifice the short term demands for instant success. Spend and recruit wisely, rather than spending huge fees on short term fixes.
It is my view that players like ADM and Falcao are only here because, out of desperation, we have paid more than anyone else would have. There two players in particular have been afforded far more excuses for poor performances than anyone, just because of who they are. I hear people saying that Falcoa is feeding off scaps etc so has no chance. While I agree he has not had the best of service, he has missed bags of good chances when he has played. Time will tell if he will ever be the player he was before his injury, but I suspect it won't be at United. DiMaria looks anything but a world class performer. I know its his first season in English football, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Aldo his last. For £60 million, I think it is fair for the fans to expect more.
Other than DeGae, can anyone tell me one single United player that has lived up to expectation this year? Maybe Blind and Dojo, and I think Herrera not playing has been LvG's biggest error. Other than that, the whole lot of them have underperformed terribly.
In my opinion, we need to pick a long term manager. Stick with him, ba k him in the transfer market and allow him to build his own team. Not keep hiring and firing to satisfy the demands of the "I want instant success" fans. Manchester United is a club build on history and tradition. We should all remember that, and support the club and the team through the tough times. There is no quick fix. And spending ridiculous fees on players whose hearts are not in the club will not guarantee success.
In fact, it is usually a case of the bigger the transfer fee, the bigger the disappointment in reality. Over the years, look at the biggest transfer fees in world football, and how many really live up to expectation. Zidane and C Rinaldo granted, but on the whole they end up disappointing.

21 Feb 2015 21:55:03
finally someone who talks sence.

21 Feb 2015 22:08:34
Stoat
No
Betty
Di maria started really well looked exactly what he had been for the past few years years.
But then 2 things happened.
1 he got injured
2 van gaal openly criticized him.

21 Feb 2015 22:15:07
Apologies for the auto correct spellings!! And that was a reply to the OP from Sakhere, not Sam :)

21 Feb 2015 22:38:36
Seriously jred? You are going to make excuses for Di Maria's performance today? Only a pathetic wimp responds to criticism, such as it was, in such a manner.

This thread pretty much hits the nail on the head. If we play 3 at the back, the manager gets pilloried, and if we play 4 it's the same - and that's because our players are simply not stepping up to the mark. Maybe now RVP's injured LVG can start to play with one striker, which is what we need to be doing since our midfield and defence are still suspect.

I am sure LVG has been surprised by the pace and physicality of the English game, but that too does not excuse highly paid professionals not being able execute basic control, passing properly. We created many opportunities to set up chances today, but failed to capitalize, and that's down to the players, not the manager.

21 Feb 2015 23:19:26
Jred, that is no excuse. He has been crap for most of the season. Certainly not a £60m player. I remember I posted a long time before we bought him that DiMaria was too lightweight and inconsistent for United or the EPL. I can't be bothered to trawl through old posts, but I am 99% sure that you agrees with me at the time.
I know you are in the anti LvG brigade, but sooner or later you lot must accept that the players must take a large chunk of the blame. Same as last year under Moyes. Maybe neither are right for United, but who is?
I'm afraid that, like I said earlier, we are looking to the past rather than the future. The SAF era will never be repeated by any club, so we need to look ahead and build for the future.
This is a bit off topic now, but I do not think it is a good thing that SAF is still so involved at the club. I'm sure he is still having a huge influence on the football side of things. If he wants to do that, why not just continue managing the team?
Whoever is our manager going forwards, he should have full control. SAF wouldn't have accepted anything less, so why should anyone else?

22 Feb 2015 08:35:58
Betty nice post and I agree with having a stable manager for the long term success of the club and long term planning.

I just do not see LVG being the guy to do that and to be honest, yes the players are to take some of the blame but he is most culpable for what we are seeing. Football players are not mathematical geniuses and he has this entire team confused with the constant changing because he reckons himself to be master tactician.

Unfortunately sometimes you do more harm than good when you introduce too many things at once and ask players to do things that do not come to them naturally. It is like asking your 14 year old to learn 5 new languages at once and most are not capable of that.

The body language between Giggs and him is not good at all and I am starting to see the same with a lot of the players on the pitch. I think as usual nothing is said but we are not too far off from hearing discontent and people openly questioning it.

I can not see us finishing top 4 and dread the thought of being completely embarrassed at one in any of the games against top opposition. I can not see how he can keep his job.

We have spent 150 million this year and finishing outside the top 4 is a one place improvement that is if we finish 5th on last year given Everton's season so the reality is he can not stay and a sackable offense for any manager.

He is also no SAF and his CV pales when compared to great man so I am not basing my view on that comparison, but to try and make excuses for him if we finish outside the top 4 is ludicrous and he will do more harm than good if retained long term.

Over the last few weeks I have maintained he will lose the last bastion of support within the fans and unfortunately it is coming earlier than I expected as results like yesterday are just not acceptable by any yard stick. He has been on the job for 7 months, a full squad to choose from and it seems like there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

We lost to a very poor Swansea team yesterday and are ripe picking for any team in the league with this style of play and had they passed a bit better Gomes would have been on a break away a few times and would have scored. Better teams will pick us off and embarrass us.

22 Feb 2015 10:05:07
Betty
I rate di maria i don't really rate lvg.
Is di maria happy at the club, at the role he is playing .
Are we getting the best out of him.
I would have to say no.
I still think he is a top player and think he will come good

22 Feb 2015 11:03:06
Shawthing
Its the role di maria is being asked to play.
He was playing well breaking forward with pace in short playing his natural game .
Then came lvg comments about him needing to be a team player and to stop playing for himself .

this for me raises questions about what di maria is being asked to do.
1. Run at people try and make things happen.
2. Or keep the ball don't lose possession .
the first way is di maria natural game the latter isn't .

truth is he has been injured, had issues of the pitch been asked to play a number of roles in a new league.
but for some reason his performances have gone backwards

22 Feb 2015 12:00:44
Jred

The issue is nowhere to run for ADM mate. With our build up play, the opposing 11 can have a glass of wine whilst leisurely getting into position and getting their lines set up. Di-Maria has no gaps to run into and always looking at 2 or 3 defenders covering him and no space. This style of ply nullifies even Ronaldo and Bale as they are also players who like to run at the opposition and space to run into and more suited to Messi but we don't have messi in our team :)

This possession style play is overrated as it creates very little and so so easy to defend against. BTW our goal yesterday came from us breaking at pace and not passing it around 40 yards from their goal backwards and sideways and breaking them down.

Pace and Width is what is needed with strikers and midfielders running into the box but he is blind to it because he is defensive minded manager. City is best at it and when they have their full squad great to watch. No coincidence they have won the league 2 out of 3 and still expect them to win it this year.

22 Feb 2015 12:23:12
Gcu
I agree but the problem is this is the lvg way.
People go on about him winning a title with munich, but the football he played was poor to watch .
Imo he has managed like this for 15 year it works to a point but its not for me

22 Feb 2015 12:56:57
Jred

We are seeing the same thing mate. I think someone pointed out up the page playing with wingers is not a Fergie thing but best way to break down teams in the PL. It pulls defenders out and opens up gaps and space in the box.

Fergie just happened to be a lot better manager that people give him credit and knew how to set up teams to score and win. I know people might not agree but the best team in the league IMO is city and they play a 442 without complicating things and look scary when they are fit and can field their best 11. Granted we don't have their players but we are not miles off either.

I wonder what Giggsy is thinking sitting there watching this.

21 Feb 2015 17:34:51
Hi Guys

I'm a 51 year old man who has supported United for 45 years.I have seen many changes to our Club over the years but the 1 thing that doesn't change is how gutted I feel when we lose.I accept that even the greatest teams and sportsmen/women all lose occasionally.Recently defeat seems more likely than it ever it has done.I know people will say that's only our second defeat in 20 but let's be honest we havn't exactly played sides off the park.
We just don't seem to have the flair in our play anymore.We don't frighten sides like we used to with pace and power.We used to enter the tunnel in matches and go 1-0 up because of who we were.Thats not there anymore.The worrying thing is that I don't think we will get that aura back anytime soon.
I don't think sacking the manager is the answer but he really needs to look at his so called philosophy and work out what suits the individuals we have.We have turned world class players like Angel Di Maria and Falcao and made them look very ordinary.If I sound down at the moment its because I am I love United and always will and maybe I have been spoiled over the last 20 years or so but as I said in the beginning I was around when we were not winning everything.
Still there's always next week.

21 Feb 2015 18:05:11
Bazza. I agree wholeheartedly. Beast and some of the others have been warning about this. While the more optimistic posters have been more patient.
One thing for sure is that we have players with incredible ability and they're not performing anywhere near their best. This is partly the system and partly lack of confidence. There is also the added problem of settling into a new country, speaking a foreign language etc. All these are factors.
Personally, i wish lvg drops the two strikers and pack the midfield. We have creative midfielders in the shape of mata and hererra. I watched liverpool play with three at the back and 5 midfielders and one winger, markovic, and only sturridge up front. They control games playing with this system.
Lvg is obsessed with trying to accommodate rvp and rooney in the team. Rvp is not worth a starting spot at present.
This is the time we need our manager to manage and our players to stand up and be counted.

21 Feb 2015 18:06:34
Bazza, you are a year older than me and been supporting them for 4 more years. I know how y feel and despite how difficult this year has been I thought we played better today. We were more direct a little less pedestrian an it looked promising. I know we lost but this formation looks much better than the others. I just think we need to select the best players for it and persevere. I can't s Fellaini as a No 10 and I thought Shaw should have stayed on, perhaps play Young at RB instead of McNair Valencia. The worry is that we continue to pick payers who are clearly out of form; RVP is a shadow of his former self.

Hey ho, things could ne worse, like me you will remember the Sexton years. losing 6-0 to Ipswich was a particular highlight.

21 Feb 2015 18:19:54
I agree we actually did play better today, we didn't deserve to lose. But the same traits I have seen all season are still there.

Did we look any better than we did the first game of the season today?

The goal reminded me of what we used to be like, but that was it over 90mins. We literally look like an old Stoke City this season, we don't scare teams anymore as Bazza said. Swansea quickly gained confidence in a game we would have taken with ease even under Moyes (in fact we did). Again LVG neglected to adapt to the game and didn't capitalise on the very poor Swansea play.

Luck runs out and we have been riding it most games this season. For once I am not angry, just frustrated.

21 Feb 2015 18:22:32
RVP looks to be injured.

I have maintained we will not make top 4 for a few weeks now after becoming completely disappointed with the type of football he has us playing. Teams seem to score with almost no possession against us and todays result is worse than most realise.

We have 3 more games that we need maximum points and then a stretch of 5 or 6 where a point might look like a good result.

Too many mares in my opinion to lesser teams to get top 4.

21 Feb 2015 18:23:19
NM, given the form of RVP and Falcao you are probably right. Let's play Rooney up front with Mata at 10 or 3 C

21 Feb 2015 18:26:56
I agree about playing one with one forward and packing the midfield.

The game against Hull earlier in the season, we packed the midfield. We controlled the game and played good football.

21 Feb 2015 18:52:28
These are testing times for LVG and the bubble that we are playing good football would have burst.
I can expect some wholesale games in the next game.
What I would do is this:
Rafael at RB. McNair needs a lot bedding in. Valencia is an apt deputy.
Smalling at CB. He's better there than Jones wins more headers and his passing range this season has been better too.
Rojo at CB. No issues there.
Shaw at LB. No issues.
CM:Blind
CM:Herrera
Both these CM have earned it.
LW:Young. The only player who could put in a decent cross ATM. Immense to our team. He deserves to start a lot more.
RW: Mata. He slows down play and won't get past players but he could at least put in a cross.
Rooney. CF.
Wilson. CF. RVP and Falcao have been utter garbage all season. The welbeck and chicharito we dumped would have better.
Another thing, I would start giving Pereria some games, partly because he is somewhat untested and I think he could be difference with the vision and ability he has.

21 Feb 2015 18:58:26
Agreed Ajh and Sam. We always seem reluctant to play the extra midfielder. Why?
Barca played all teams off the pitch playing with 5 midfielders and in a lot of these games they didn't even have a recognised striker.
Midfielders create chances and that's where the modern game is going. We seem to want to play three mids against most teams who are playing 5 in midfield. Is it any wonder we struggle?
My frustration is that since we were beaten twice comprehensively by Barca, we didn't alter tactics as a club. We carried on playing with two wingers and we didn't buy the top midfielders that became available. We're paying the price for that now.

21 Feb 2015 19:40:05
I don't see how you can criticize the manager when the players don't perform. There were 3 or 4 occasions today when ADM was in space on the left and failed to cross soon enough or well enough. When you pay 60m for a player you're entitled to expect better. Similarly, with RVP. He's paid 200k per week for heaven's sake. Is it the manager's fault if he plays without energy or skill, squandering the few chances that he gets? Only to the extent that he keeps picking him. (He'll probably be injured for the rest of this season, so now LVG's hand will be forced)

My criticism of LVG is that he's not prepared to sick to his guns regarding formation and persists with giving certain players a chance to prove themselves even if that means being unbalanced.

21 Feb 2015 19:42:05
My issue with the team and management this year is a lack of consistency.be it the message that LVG puts out, the system that he is playing and the players that he picks.
I appreciate that injuries have dictated a bit on this but it still feels like we are at the start of the season trying to work out what is the best team.LVG even said this recently yet was spouting on about needing 10 weeks at the start of the season.
If there is a long term view on system, players needed for that system then I am behind the manager. If not then I think we need someone who does have that. be it a Klopp/Ancheloti etc.
We can't afford, and we don't want to be another Liverpool who were in the wilderness for years.
I will keep the faith. just give us something to truely hang onto.

21 Feb 2015 21:41:00
I cannot see Ancelotti leaving Madrid any time soon and Klopp has just signed a 5 year contract with BVB, the way they have stuck by him this year he is not the type of character to move on, I suspect he will stay with them for a very long time. Who does that leave, Guardiola, Mourinho, Simeone, Conte, Blanc, the list isn't that big for a manager with the experience and charisma to manage United and the majority of those on the list will not be available.

21 Feb 2015 11:55:44
Ilkay Gundogan if Borussia Dortmund has started to look like himself over the last few weeks after coming back from injury. Ed002 claimed he will be available in the summer and I for one would take a chance on him.

21 Feb 2015 14:35:08
Gundogan and Vidal would be perfect. Price may have dropped for both because of injuries but I think both can recover their best form.

21 Feb 2015 17:10:16
Gundogan would always come back better than Vidalas his game was based on good passing Vidal is a box to box and its harder to come back from an injury

21 Feb 2015 20:44:59
Vidal is a great passer too? He's more of a driving force and a bit more aggressive in the tackle, they're both top quality players.

21 Feb 2015 07:43:13
Just read nevilles article in the telegraph. What a legend!! I think beast needs to have a good read!!

21 Feb 2015 09:01:03
Very good article, sensible and well balanced. He does however make some very valid points that have been debated on here. What GN has done is try and summarise the bigger picture, identifying what was needed but also highlighting what he still sees needs to be done. I think the majority of people on here (including GDS and Beast probably share 80% of the same views, it is the final 20% that causes all the fuss.

21 Feb 2015 09:58:20
The most important thing he said is that he is still unsure of what system players are being bought for. This is my biggest concern too. There is a clear lack of balance in the squad, and the summer signings added good players without any coherent attempt to address this. Van Gaal certainly appears confident/arrogant in his belief that he is implementing a clear plan, but I can't see it yet.

The bigger picture for me is, we have this guy for 3 years max. Half a year in and he still isn't decided on how he wants us to play. As Neville said, he wants success in these three years. So he's going to try to bring in proven players that can hit the ground running. For me, that's a lot of short term investment to give a man who hasn't solidifed a clear vision for the team. Van Gaal should, like any manager, be given a full season. But during the summer the club need to sit down and decide in van Gaal's short term goals are in the long term interest of the club.

21 Feb 2015 11:28:00
It clear how he wants to play. It's just the players we have cannot perform. He has bought the players the right players but the existing players just can't perform.

21 Feb 2015 11:49:43
It's clear that he wants possession football, but beyond that it has been shifting all season.