Manchester United Banter Archive October 21 2013

21 Oct 2013 20:36:38
Read that interest in Shaw is intensifying whilst Evra has said that he may not sign on for another year due to personal reasons. Whilst I love Patrice and hope that everything with him is okay, I do hope that he does leave for a free. There has to be an injection of youth - Shaw & Barkley for me are important to sign. Powell & Januzaj are important to introduce more and more as well as M. Keane & potentially Henriquez.

A big question is, could you see us giving Shaw a chance as our first choice left back? Or would you want Coentrao in here as well?

Generally we need more pace throughout the team. As Gary Neville said, we are too slow through the middle. Cleverly for one I would welcome back, he is proving to be better than Fellaini to be honest. Herrera would be a very good signing, Ballague thinks he would be one of the best in a year or two and well worth the fee. Forward wise I definitely see Kagawa going and Rooney signing a new deal. Don't know what we will do there. In terms of a left sided player, Konoplyanka or Sanchez would be ideal.

It shows our pathetic class of midfielders that one has to praise cleverly. another good for nothing side and back passer. yes but he is proving to be batter than fellaini that's truth.

Seriously some of the comments from UTD supporters over transfers? The mention of the likes of Shaw / Barkley / Baines, and you seriously think you can go and prize them from their clubs, hasn't Shaw just signed another contract? Barkley someone who Moyes wouldn't play and continually farmed out is now seen upon by Martinez and all Everton fans as the future of the club, as with Baines. Re-evaluate seriously as Moyes's tenure might only be a short one!

Suggest you read something a little more believable!

Utd., Chelsea and others have been interested in Shaw for some time and have been told he is not for sale. On turning 18 in July he signed a long term contract with Saints. The club have no need to sell players and have a very positive attitude to bringing players through from a young age into the first team.

The media are totally lazy and think because Saints have sold players like Bale in the past the trend will continue, without even bothering to check out current policy and financial situation with that of the past.

Probably the same "source" who rated De Gea 8 and Boruc 6 on Saturday!

If Saints can maintain a top 6 place through to January there are likely to be one or two quality additions to the squad as they will be seen as more than a one season success and a team that could get into Europe in 2014. Don't expect any of the current first 11 to leave-why would they?

Saint

I agree with you and although a good player, I believe Coentrao is more suited to our style and will end up being the one we go after. There is also no guarantees Madrid is still interested in selling or if the player wants to come.

January in a world cup year is not going to see any major players switching sides IMO.

22 Oct 2013 12:19:32
I would love to see Powell introduced to the first team, and would be happy with any of the signings youve mentioned.
I can't decide whether or not I would be too upset to see Kagawa leave however.
Hes clearly talented but has yet to prove it on the pitch at Man Utd. Would be delighted to see him used in an exchange for Gundogan or Rues however. Ed02 do you think that would be a possibility either in January or the summer?

{Ed002's Note - Probably not. It looked like Gundogan would be sold this past summer and there was interest from Rubin Kazan and Manchester City. However, with Goetze going a season before expected, Dortmund were always going to look to keep the player and are looking to negotiate a new deal with him. It had been suggested that Manchester United might try and strike a deal for the player this summer that is not activated until next summer - that always seemed unlikely to me. Both Barcelona and Arsenal spoke with his agent but made no approach to Dortmund. Enquiries to his club have been made by Chelsea and Real Madrid.

Chelsea, Juventus, Real Madrid, Manchester City, Arsenal showed an interest in Marco Reus before his return to Dortmund last year. Recent tentative approaches made by Chelsea and Manchester City have resulted in a "not for sale" response regardless of their being a release clause in his contract. Manchester City are likely to push again as Dortmund are still looking to Dzeko as a possible replacement for Lewandowski and will look to ease a deal through by offering favourable terms on the transfer or a contribution to his salary, but Reus is keen to stay where he is for now.}

22 Oct 2013 15:18:01
Thanks Ed02, much appreciated as always.

21 Oct 2013 19:45:22
Anyone see that "rovercocastics" post on here where he gave 9 reasons why Moyes should go has been published on a different sports website word for word?

Yeah. I noticed that. Hope he gets royalties!

21 Oct 2013 17:18:28
A few posters seem convinced and keep saying we all need to accept moyes is going nowhere for at least the next season and half at least and I just wondered why theyr so confident he will be given that length of time?
I certainly don't think he should be sacked just yet but things need to change quickly or he's in trouble IMO.
Im not having a go at anybody but iv yet to see a decent arfument as to why he will definately get at least 2 seasons like some have claimed.
The 6 year contract means nothing and even if you argue that he needs to bring in his own players and be allowed to put his own mark on the team then from what iv seen so far its a worrying thought.
I know this moyes thing has been done to death but i'm genuinely interested to hear why some posters are adamant hel be here a long time even if we fail to improve.
Im actually worried that by the time january comes if things haven't dramatically improved then the glazers may have lost a little faith and don't give him as much financial backing as he needs to fix our problem positions

I think at xmas if we are still midtable, and 8-10points off fourth then he might be gone.
Even the glazers know we need CL football every year to keep the money flowing into their pockets.
I agree 6yr contract means nothing, i'm sure there are lots of clauses built into it.
I also think that moyes might be losing some of the players, I think they realize that this guy just isn't up to it.

I think Moyes' has until the end of November to turn things around. The club will no entertain the possibility of finishing outside the top four, IMO.

I think he will get this season at the most, but if come 1st jan we are seeing no obvious improvement and are not competing on all fronts then I can't believe the yanks will give him a shedload of money to spend.

21 Oct 2013 16:55:12
Hi folks would just like to make a couple of points

I think some of the posters need to take a reality check, DM is going nowhere, he will get at least two seasons regardless how we do this year.

Giggs should never have been given a coaching role until he retires, I can't see how he can coach as well as play, he would of had the same influence over the squad if he didn't get the promotion.Also him and Neville should learn that side of the game working with the underage players first, then work their way up to the senior squad.
I don't hold out too much hope for the jan transfer window.We might strengthen the LB position with the likes of Cointreau but the CM is a different proposition.We all know that not too many players are available at this time of year. I would rather wait until next summer and get the caliber of player in who can improve us rather than just buy some one to plug a hole( thinking of Fellani here).

I would much rather see Moyes eat humble pie and ask Rene to come back, at least he knows the players inside out and also knows how to play them.
SAF.s retirement must have come as a major blow to the players, then they go and loose all the coaching staff too, only to find them being replaced with people who seem totally devoid of ideas.It's only natural that this upheavel affects them.

Would love to think that its only a matter of time before the whole thing clicks into gear and we start performing, winning and returning to the summit of the league otherwise its going to be a long long painful season.

21 Oct 2013 16:13:12
Any posters familiar with Spanish football fancy giving an uneducated fan a scouting report on what we can expect from Sociedad Wednesday night?

Is it a winnable game? Will Sociedad come to play or be more likely to park the bus and hope for a draw?

They have had a very poor start to the season and as it happens just got their best result of the year with an away win 2-1 at Valencia (valencia are also poor this year).

I have seen them twice this year and they seem to struggle creating chances and expect them to definitely park the bus and look for a draw.

They lost illaramendi, who was their midfield boss and they look toothless.

In short we should beat them quite easily and expect 3-0 score. Vela is their main threat who used to play for Arsenal but could not cut it in the PL.

They were a breath of fresh air last season but lost there main man to Madrid in the summer, they will be confident of an upset and with vela up front have a goal in them, I expect them to play on the break and look to stifle us and nick it.
Porto in 2003 done a similar tatic and I expect the same sort of game plan, but a few early goals from us and they will crumble!
However they did knock out Lyon to reach this stage so defo no mugs.

Sorry forgot about Griezman, who plays on the left wing for them. like most young wingers he can look great or have a mare but expect Rafael to handle him.

Their CD is probably their most prized asset Martinez and well worth watching. Last year they were my money team and I made a ton off them betting them pretty much for weeks on end. This year I have lost every time I have bet on them:) hope that is not a bad oman given my 3-0 prediction)

Anyone watching Bilbao/Villarreal tonight, should be a real good game and some very good players on display.

Herrera not starting again, Demarcos favored . Watching Bilbao ping the ball around and one touch pass it at pace is pretty nice and you realize how overrated our players are and technically deficient. They play at almost double of our speed I would swear.

Commentators saying Guardiola might make a move for Muniain as he is big fan of his.

Shahram

Even our U21s and Academy play a tempo that is twice quicker than our first 11. This has been there since last year, so can't blame Moyes alone for this.

Deeps.

21 Oct 2013 15:32:44
Personally I think some of the best football we played last year was when we adopted the "diamond formation" and I think we should do it again. Carrick as the holding midfielder with Kagawa, Cleverly and Januzaj making up the rest of the diamond. This I think will let us keep hold of the ball, create chances and allow our full backs to attack which they are both good at. If we play the diamond we would have more control of the game and with the likes of rvp Rooney Kagawa and Januzaj in the line up plenty of chances would be created. Our wingers haven't performed for 2 years now so a change in formation is paramount to the remainder of our season.

I agree but I don't think it will happen.
Everything point to moyes wanting to keep rooney happy by playing him in his favourite position up front.
He rarely played 4-4-2 at everton so why stubbornly refuse to change from it now?
IMO he needs to be brave and change it quickly but in the situation were in ATM is he brave enough to make changes to the formation? personally i'd try 3-5-1-2 with DDG, Vidic, smalling, jones, Rafael, buttner, fellaini, carrick, cleverly, kags/adnan, rooney, RVP. people may niot agree but it would make us a lot more solid in the middle and allow us to be more fluid in attack and allow our wingbacks to tuck in when we don't have the ball while having players available to press high up the pitch without leaving us exposed. just a thought

I think that's one of the best ideas I've heard in a while! Like a 4 1 2 1 2 formation? Carrick holding (Fellaini when Carrick is rested) then Januzaj slightly left, Kagawa in the middle and Cleverly slightly right with them all interchanging. With Rooney and Rvp up top. The fullbacks providing the width when attacking. Then when defending the fullbacks fall back and Cleverly falls back next to Carrick and we defend with a 4 4 2.I reckon that's the best option we currently have. Thoughts guys?

Oops obvs meant 3-4-1-2 with fellaini/carrick next to clevs and adnan/kags linking them to rooney and RVP up front with buttner and rafael as wingbacks :/ haha

21 Oct 2013 16:22:42
Bfa, I know things aren't great atm but trying to sneak an extra man on the pitch might not go down well with the authorities. Lol.

Haha shapps,
Im on my phone and couldn't read it back properly.
I know what I meant even if I do feel like a bit of a div now haha
We could try it though eh? like you said we need all the help get ATM :)

Nik,
I was thinking 3 at the back with wingbacks, a midfield 3 but with kags/adnan pushed up behind rooney and RVP.
I think this would allow us to push the wingbacks up when attacking so we would be basically attacking with 6 or 7 players without being too exposed as the number of players pushing up would mean the opposition would have no choice but to defend with 8 or 9.
When we don't have possesion the wingbacks drop along with the 2 holding midfielders to defend with7 but allowing us to keep kags/adnan, rooney and RVP higher for a counter attack.
obvs it wouldn't always work, particularly against another team playing with wingbacks but it could be effective against teams playing a back 4 like most do

We might do better playing a 4-4-4 formation :)

Nik that's exactly what I was eluding to. I just think we could control games much better, create plenty of chances and everyone playing in there favoured positions. This I believe would help us no end and a very fluid formation.

21 Oct 2013 12:21:57
hi ed007, I was wondering if u think moyes is the rigth man for utd. does he know how to play attacking fotball and did he use some other tactic's at everton or was it play longball and get a one goal and then defend.how can he be so clueless, instead of changeing utd why does he not change his tactic's I don't think moyes know how to play attacking fotball.this is for u guys, would u like us playing like a team from 1985 or would u guys like us to play like we used to, attacking fotball, instead of defending a 1-0 score, am I the only one who can see where we are going and a guy who had been told not to change the backroomstaff but still does change it and makes a lot of mistake's and only know's one tactic and blame's the players for draw's and lose and does not change his tactic's, so what does he need time for? is it to make us play like he did at everton, all of u who say give him time will u bee happy when we are playing longball's while the rest of the top team's and team's like everton etc are playing nice fotball, it does not matter if he get's time or not moyes is to afraid of useing other tactic's because he don't know how to do that so he is sticking with his everton tactic's, if moyes can't change to suit us then he should leave, he will never take us higher then 7th place in the league and people say give him time, he has not even tried to play the utd way, if we get a manager from let's say birmingham and he play defence, and then come's to utd or barcalona or any other team should that team change it self or it's style and play defencely or should the manager change himself? ps: moyes will not change his style he is trying to change us and that will not be a good thing. every top team are winning their game's with score like 4-0 or 4-1 and we can't beat midtable teams, even norwich will be hard to beat and what will happen when we play teams like barca real dortmund juventus tottenham arsenal etc. they will crush us so mr moyes u have to change or u have to leave. zee have a nice day:) {Ed007's Note - No Zee I don't think that Moyes is the right man for the job and I never have. I said when he was appointed that in 2/3 years time Utd will have dropped to a level that CL qualification would be seen as 'success', sadly it looks like that could happen even quicker than I anticipated.
When I try to think of any positive reasons for Moyes getting the job I really can't come up with one. He has never managed at a top club (no disrespect to Everton), he has very limited Euro experience, he doesn't like promoting youth, his teams play awful football, he has poor tactical judgement (is there a Plan A never mind a Plan B?), I could go on and on and not come up with one positive thing to say.
In my opinion Utd will not compete for major honours they way they have in the past with Moyes in charge. The playing staff needs a major overhaul to improve the quality of players at the club and the quality of football being played needs to be vastly improved but sadly I don't see Moyes being the man to do either. I like Moyes as a person, he's Scottish, he's a Celtic fan, an ex-Celtic player and I would love to see him be a great success as Man Utd manager but I just can't see it happening. I will happily hold my hands up and gladly take a large slice of humble pie if I am proven to be wrong.
It must be bad when you are being negative about it, you are like a wee ray of sunshine on here usually lol all the Eds love your usual enthusiasm.}

Ed007

Agree with every word mate. We've painted ourselves into a really dark corner, here. We knew it would be tough, but why on earth give a new manager a 6yr deal right off the bat? Surely, a 3yr deal to see how things work out would be the logical move.

If things keep getting worse, and say, for example, Moyes is cut loose, we'd have to pay a fortune to get rid of him. As fans, we were told our new manager would have good European experience and domestic success behind him.

Moyes has neither. He deserves time, but it depends what he does, in that time. If he turns things around and we finish 3rd or 4th, I'd be happy to write off this season and see what he does in the summer and next season.

But how would everyone feel, if we fnished say, 6th. Then in the summer, we lost Rooney and Kagawa and continued to scramble around in the transfer window refusing to meet clubs' valuations.

Would fans still be content to 'give him time' in that scenario? {Ed007's Note - I agree with giving any manager time but there has to be change from the beginning of his tenure to earn that time. There were deals in place for players that Moyes backed away from, personally I would have loved to see Ozil in a Utd shirt, he is one of my favourite players in the game today, but he ended up at Arsenal and the only deal he got over the line was for an over-priced average MF, I think the Fabregas story was a nonsense and a non-starter from the beginning BTW. Look at all the top teams in Europe who changed manager this past summer, Pep to Bayern, Ancelloti to Madrid, Mourhino to Chelsea, they all spent money on players a)So that the manager can get the team he wants or b)to excite the fans, Man Utd and Moyes done neither.
AF knew the squad needed major surgery and he had worked on deals with Gill before announcing retiring yet Moyes deemed them not good enough, or did his dithering play a part again?The club then struggled to get ANYONE in, the carry-on with the Fellaini fee is embarrassing. Moyes is meticulous in his scouting on players and wants to know every available detail but his dithering has always been a problem. How ridiculous would the club have looked if, and it nearly happened, there was a new manager in place and the club had not made one major signing during the window? To be honest I would have rather seen that than waste so much money on Fellaini in a last minute panic. Although I suppose Woodward had his part to play in the whole fiasco I still firmly lay the blame for lack of transfers at Moyes' door.
In the cold reality of it all has taken the champions of England, added one very average player and turned them into a mediocre team, it's the same players that won the league so Moyes must shoulder the responsibility for the team's rapid decline. I watch a lot of Dortmund and thought Kagawa would be a fantastic signing but he isn't even getting a chance, Moyes seems to prefer big physical robots. He reminds me a lot of Martin O'Neill's teams at Celtic, their choice of players seems to be athletes first and a footballer second, physical attributes are more important than technical ability.}

21 Oct 2013 15:25:53
hi ed007 thank you for replying, I hope moyes get's it rigth but don't think he will be. I will try to stay positive ed007 but it is difficult when I see moyes, take us down at the bottom, btw do u think he will ever learn the utd way and how many years does he need to be a top manager? thank you ed007 :) zee {Ed007's Note - Sadly I think Moyes is too set in his ways and too long in the tooth to change his outlook now Zee.}

Was a 6 year contract given because we got Moyes on the cheap. Wasn't he the only candidate (guessing there were others), aside from Pep that there would ne no compensation due for as he had ran his contract down?

By locking in a manager long term it saves us money - however it makes no sense football wise, or mid-term business wise. It just strengthens the argument that the club is all about squeezing every penny of profit rather than caring about the success of the football.

The problem is the board have mis-read how abysmal we would become and that directly correlates with sponsorship, fan base and merchandise sales going downhill. Nobody could have anticipated such a dramatic fall from grace, but it's probably a bit of karma for penny pinching.

For the past couple of seasons, we've chided Arsenal fans saying that their owners were more concerned with simply finishing in the top 4. Wenger even used to claim finishing 4th was like winning a trophy, I think?

By appointing Moyes, what I consider to be an 'underdog manager' who is not used to a) winning anything or b) being overly pressured to do so, I just hope that our owners aren't going down that path.

As in, bring in a manager who won't cost them much (not just in terms of his compensation, but his transfer requirements), COULD over-achieve and win the odd trophy, will keep us competitive enough to get top 4 and call the job a good 'un.

Personally, that's how I see it. It was a pretty unambitious appointment, hopefully that's not a sign that the club's ambitions will decrease over time.

Redsky

I agree with you on the summer transfer fiasco and blame Moyes just as much as Woodward.

21 Oct 2013 12:24:15
Doesnt sound like Khedira is happy being benched at Madrid. Hope we go in for him again in January.

21 Oct 2013 08:16:01
The more I think about it, the more I believe we could be closer to a Moyes sacking than many may think.

I live in Dubai, and I was driving home yesterday looking at the various billboards depicting United players as dashing, invincible heros, advertising a myriad of products and thinking to myself how incongruous this now seems given the current state of the club both on and off the park.

It's not impossible that Moyes could turn this whole thing around and I really hope he does, but you can see from this site over the last few weeks how those that are prepared to defend him are getting fewer and fewer in number. The same reduced conviction about Moyes will be happening amongst the worldwide fan base, the players, the directors, the shareholders (including the Glazers)and the sponsors. If a huge improvement in results is not seen in the next four or five games the whole situation could become irreversible for Moyes with top players not prepared to join us and our best players contemplating leaving, sponsors starting to desert us (or not being prepared to pay the same rates as before), share price falling and the more fickle overseas fans shifting to support teams that win and play good football like Arsenal.

Moyes may have a six year contract but the Glazers will not sit back and watch a brand that reached a valuation of $3bn, dwindle to a few hundred million. If they do, what an opportunity for the club to be bought by people who really care for it like the Red Knights!

I live in Dubai too but can't place any off the billboards you are talking about and amused that people think a global brand is doomed for a poor season if that is what we end up with.

Yankees did not make the playoffs this year with the biggest payroll in baseball because of an aging team funny enough but still are and will remain the biggest brand there is in baseball.

Dm is not going anywhere in the short term and people should just get used to it. The only difference between this years team and last year is RVP basically carried us last year and we had timely goals from other players. The strikers are doing very little from open play at the moment and we are getting no contribution from the rest of the team.

Top players will always join united and quite silly to make such statements. If a team like Spurs can go out and retool their entire squad with no CL football then I would never worry about players not wanting to join us.

It is quite sad how our own fans are putting the club down like we are some two bit outfit. I can accept and agree that some of the players are not good enough and we can all have a view but the other stuff is completely going overboard.

There are big differences between the value of a baseball franchise and a football club. 1. Baseball's global audience is small compared to football, 2. There is no relegation in the franchise system 3. There's only one competition per year. 4. Baseball is a sport which has been built around maximal in-game advertising 5. There are many fewer baseball teams than football teams competing for the same $. 6 The Yankees have an enormous local market, with only 1 team (the Mets) to challenge them.

Because of the global reach of a football, a succession of poor seasons with no qualification for the ECL will devalue United's franchise far quicker than a few poor seasons for the Yankees.

I think you too should meet up and have a date.

Shahram,
you say the top players will always want to play for us even with no UCL football and cite spurs as an example which is fair enough but players see spurs as an exciting team on the up with a young, talented manager and a young, talented squad.
How do you think we would be seen by those same players currently? would playing the current dull, defensive and depressing football we've been playing make you want to sign for us? Would the prospect of playing for a manager who so far has looked painfully out of his depth fill you with excitement? Again, no.
Like I said the other day, I admire the fact you back moyes and I do want him to succeed but at the moment we may appear to be less of an attractive proposition than you may think.
Im not slagging the club off but giving an honest opinion on what I see at the moment, dull, clueless performances from a team managed by a dull, clueless manager. You may see things differently but performances don't lie and although I agree that this rot has been setting in before moyes came, he hardly inspires does he? we have no leader to rally round in these worrying times and despite some of the least creative football iv EVER seen us play in nearly 40 years we can't find room to accomodate the likes of zaha and kags! If you had no allegiance to our club would you rush to join us in our current state? i'd suspect not.
Im not having a go shahram because youve made some good points over the time iv been on this site and I agree with a lot of the things youve had to say but I can't agree with you on this and everything points to the demise of liverpool 20 yrs ago for me and a repeat of that without some kind of major changes with or more likely, without, moyes.

Peashooter

So are you now saying we are going to have years of poor seasons and diminish as a brand.

Liverpool have not won the league for over 25 years and CL football for the past 3 seasons. Do you think Chelsea is a bigger brand than them based on your theory?

Noname

Many on this site know even before we started on this poor run, I did not rate this team highly and was livid with our summer transfer dealings and at the end of the window mentioned the players better step up and some need to have career years if the team was going to perform.

What has happened in reality is we have an out of form/shape Kagawa, Welbeck has not improved one bit, Ferdinand has been awful, Giggs looks finished, Rafael was out with an injury and just getting back to form, RVP is definitely not right, Cleverly has been out with niggling injuries and now a calf problem and they can turn into season long problems, Anderson is the same useless Anderson and Young what can I say and Fellaini looks like he runs in slow motion and when crowded very clumsy.

Vidic and Carrick are one year older and still our most consistent players.

On the positives Rooney is fit and Janusaj is positive surprise. Nani is better and so is Valencia compared to last year but that is not saying much given their last season form.

Jones and smalling are were they were last year and so no change.

Our football has been Dull for almost 3 years now and we can all sh. t on the manager and blame him for everything that is wrong or accept we have player issues. On top of this he was handed the Wayne Rooney fiasco to sort out in the summer window and to this date Rooney can't bring himself to say he wants to be here and sidesteps the question by saying he is concentrating on his football.

Is all well at the club, no it is not and I believe there is friction in the squad and the dressing room.

Is Zaha better than Valencia and Nani, obviously not because they see him everyday and not stupid. Take Lamela who can't get on the pitch for Spurs. at the moment ad by all accounts everybody raved about him and he played in a top league before coming over. Does that make ABV clueless?

How many times did people moan about Fergie's substitutions or tactics because by many people's opinion he was not the best in those areas but we won because we had better players.

Winning generally hides a lot of flaws and the players at the moment are not performing. Too many selfish stuff, loose passes and poor delivery in the final 3rd.

Finally, as long as the funds are available, I have no doubt top players will join us. We need to be realistic in terms of targets and willing club that wants to sell and will not be able to sign key players from the likes of Real/Barca/Bayern/Dortmund/PSG when they are not available.

Forgot to mention every team in the league has improved and not many easy games out there with a squad that has vey little creativity or pace in it's spine.

21 Oct 2013 01:00:42
Ed02 do you think united will buy this January and any ideas of who or what positions?if we don't buy this January we are going to struggle to get into the top four. {Ed007's Note - Read through the posts, this has already been covered.}