Manchester United Banter Archive June 23 2013

23 Jun 2013 22:09:40
Looking at our fixtures, granted it's going to be a tough start, but our busy Christmas period doesn't look too scary. Neither does the ending of our season. After the Man City Match in the beginning of March Liverpool is the best team out of the remaining games.

Ps: Apologies if some one has already mentioned this.

PPS: Get a grip over the T. Alacantara debacle, it'll work itself out, you're grown men/women.

It is kindergarden time lol. People are so anxious about a signing they are posting every piece of dribble that is out there in the media. He is coming! No he is staying oh wait Chelsea is in for him, no hang on now city might bid for him.

This week will come and go and we might not know anymore than we did last week.

I personally believe we will have a couple of decent signings and that is about it unless we can ship Anderson/Nani and few others off but it seems like we will get lowballed with any deals for these players and the club might end up deciding that keeping them is the better option than selling.

I do really hope we sign a decent left winger as Welbeck and young are hopeless and we are so right sided as a team and predictable.

Shahram

Here here, people linking Di Maria. I just can't see it. I try to avoid reading papers not only the sport just in general too. It's just on here I read 'rumours' and I say 'rumours' in the lightest possible form.

I just don't get the people posting as if they are clued up on Thiago's every thought. It's bizarre!

Surely our signings will be announced when Moyes is officially in the hot seat.

Also, people seem to keep saying we always miss our targets. Short memories, three letters and two numbers. RVP 20.

23 Jun 2013 20:50:10
Congratulations to team India for winning champions trophy in england beating england. world champions once again.

Rodio17

It was a good game tbough. I just think there is a lot of corruption you never know what's fixed these days.

Singh

I missed it, but definitely the two best teams in the game.

Sydney!

I agree Syd! as long as Steyn is out injured, I believe a fully fit SA team are better than us and india.
God I miss the football season, relying on ridiculous rumours and other sports to get me through the day

Jaxer

Jaxer. get your facts right.
Has Sa won an6thing even whoever is fit or unfit in the team? They are chokkers and that's it. india the best in world cricket. I m sure u r not following cricket properlly.

Rodio17

24 Jun 2013 10:15:17
@Jaxer. Couldn't agree more;)

India are the far better one day team, for both 20 or 50 overs, but South Africa never perform as expected, but they are probably the better test match team.

23 Jun 2013 20:26:10
Firstly, I didn't mention it in my original post but my dispute was essentially the fact that United have really poor relationships with the majority of Football League clubs and EPL clubs. - there are 1 or 2 that we have brilliant relations but in general we're not to great.

I'm focusing specifically on Youth, so consider that the majority of footballers in England are in the football league, we have NO relations with any clubs in the English game. its quite sad to be honest, there are some really talented youngsters who would benefit from say a season at Crewe, Leicester, Derby, etc. and they have some great players who could benefit from playing for United.

REDFAITH -

I would agree with you, we do have the better English players. however if we look at our Youngsters we don't have that many great english players, we have a few but not 'tons' like Villa, etc. do.

DodgyBanter -

Disagree with this completely, imo. Bale got very lucky in making his break through the circumstances at Spurs with the injuries. had he been at United I think he would have been sold within 2/3 years.

REDFAITH comment 2 -

You do pay the most money for the best players, regardless of nationality, etc. again, agreed.

But sometimes, infact often. you overpay for sub par talent. Liverpool, Chelsea and City are prime examples of that over the past few years.

Sydney -

thats an unfair comparison, Liverpool may have bought the next Messi. we don't know. for me, I think £10M is a little steep, especially when you consider talents like Sarabia moved to Getafe for 3M Euros, then it makes the mind boggle.

Sarabia is one of the best young talents in spanish football and at 19, once he'd already played for the Real Madrid XI, replacing Cristiano Ronaldo in the UCL.

Now Zaha doesn't really seem like that great a deal does it?

Deeps -

Shelvey possesses as much ability as Tom Clevlerley, yeah he's had a bad year but United fans, and understandably so have a great reputation for underestimating Liverpool players. for example, Lucas is a real talent but everyone on here thinks he's poor. didn't we all laugh that the sturridge deal?

The best Championship player? what a joke. he wouldn't even be in my Top 5 Championship players. he's talented. but honestly what you've just said is like saying Walcott is the best EPL player, he's one of the better ones but certainly not the best.

Keep going on about being spanish? I gave my view about the state of English football and how it effects English players then compared it to my home nation. baring in mind I was talking about how it effects my following with England I don't see what the problem is?

Andy Carroll is actually a decent player, not worth £35M but he definately has a future being an England CF. as a target man he's as good as any.

The Spanish league isn't the strongest, but I strongly believe the Spanish top 8 would beat the English top 8. The Spanish clubs roll over for Barcelona and Madrid. but what you're starting to see in Spain is what you saw in Germany over the past decade, the smaller clubs are becoming real threats - Athletico Madrid, Malaga, Getafe, Bilbao (albeit they struggled this year), especially Real Sociedad.

Its funny, not long ago England was a 4 team league, Spain currently is a 2 team league, but just like England it will change, it will become more open. players like Illarramendi aren't on the level of Iniesta and co. so they make the clubs on the level below, therefore making them even stronger.

You will see a huge resurgence in Spanish football soon. Also, one final point, if English clubs negotiated their own TV Deals then United and Arsenal would be the only 2 clubs in England.

Nizza -

this is my mistake but it appears we're arguing separate points, as i've said, my issue is with United not having strong relations with football league sides.

my argument about Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal appears to be more flawed than I originally thought. but I think its evident that these 3 clubs as examples work well with smaller clubs (IE Liverpool and Charlton).

I do agree that English prices are PART of the reason, however I do think better relationships are needed if English football is to progress to a real quality league.

Real Madrid have the B and C teams as well as the Castilla. this is something that somehow needs to replicated in England, either through actual sub teams or through heavy affiliation.

I think that's the addressed the issue.

With that said, I would quite like to hear what everyone else things about the amount of English players coming through that have serious quality AND about the relationships that United among other clubs have with the lower footballing leagues.

Enjoy you weekend.

Deary me Moon, if Alberto was the next Messi, don't you think Barcelona would have bought him for €3m a week ago? I would say they would be best placed to know what the next Messi would look like, wouldn't you?

How Liverpool signing Alberto for £7m and us buying Zaha for £10m is an unfair comparison is beyond me. Both play in the same positions and both are 20 years old. In fact he's older than Zaha.

Sydney!

23 Jun 2013 22:07:47
Moon what on earth are you babbling on about. What do you mean by relationships with lower league clubs. Do you mean just relegating league one and two clubs to just feeder clubs. Because that will destroy the competitive spirit of the league. As for not having good relations with lower league i'm not sure what your talking about. We have very good relations with Leicester and have loaned several players to them. And good relations with Crewe and Palace having bought two of their best young players off them. MrE

Moon

I posted about a week ago but to briefly summarise
1) Training hours, in England we are allowed far less time training young players
2) The rules around where youth live meaning for example United can't take someone from a certain travelling distance. It makes it easier to bring a youth at 16 from another country who have had problems giving them a contract at that age.
3) Number of coaches, ease of getting badges, cost of those badges. Look at the number of coaches in Germany and Spain compared to us
4) Plan, we built the great white Elephant Wembley whilst the Germans invested in a plan, a system that was aimed to develop players. The new St George's park sounds good but we don't have a playing identity or a style and without that how do we know what type of player to develop?

There is a long way to go but is there any clear direction and have we solved the above or in St Georges just built another white elephant that in ten years gives us little because we didn't sort out the obvious issues above?

Red Man

I don't understand what you're saying Moon. Seemingly that Bale would have turned out garbage if he'd come to mufc?!

If that's the case then it's probably a good job that we don't have closer affiliations with the rest of English football. We'd probably break it!

Moon,

Awful lot there to digest, and many points worth commenting on too. Maybe too many, so just a courteous reply from me.

I appreciate the graceful acceptance of your flawed original comment. As that is all I really took issue with. The rest seems sound, with the idea of affiliates and b-teams probably a good idea in theory but with many obstacles in practice. I touched on the fact that Moyes was a fan. Maybe some plans he has drawn up won him favour in his managerial appointment. Watch this space.

Lastly, I think Zaha will become something very very good, bordering on special. Although its little more than pure speculation in much the same way Seb Coates was billed as a far greater prospect than Phil Jones by some. So I won't be pushing the opinion very hard.

Sincerely,

Syd, You're judging which piece of business was better before either of them have had a chance to play. hence why I think it is a little unfair. for all we know Alberto may turn into a wonderful little player and Zaha might not, or visa versa.

but Barcelona did think Highly of Alberto, they just didn't know where they could fit him in.

wasn't it something like 17 assists and 11 goals in 34 games? in the B team. to me, that's impressive.

MrE -

I mean genuine affiliations/REALLY good relations. we have no relation with Crewe or Palace bar 1 player being bought from each club.

Leicester is the closest thing we have, and even that relationship we have. We work well with them but we don't get the pick of the youngsters. Imagine sending players like Januzaj, Keanes, Wooton, Powell, etc. all on loan to the same Championship club in 1 year. they'll build playing relationships and get a taste of competitive football at a higher level.

Red Man -

I saw that post mate and I completely agree it is a mixture of all of those things, however I believe it also has something to do with relationships between clubs.

DodgyBanter -

I'm saying Bale was very lucky to make his breakthrough, before 2011 everyone of us thought we got a lucky escape in not signing him.

I'm not saying he wouldn't have been great, I just think he would have been a different player.

24 Jun 2013 00:13:33
Red Man spot on. Someone has to ask just what exactly has Trevor Brooking been doing for all these years as I thought his brief was to sort these issues out. Instead we've gone backwards. The last good coach of the U21's was Peter Taylor. I'd like to see Glenn Hoddle back in the set up and running youth development he's been a pariah for too long. St George's Park was long overdue and something that took far too much faffing around but has to be used right. And as for the white elephant well it was much better when England were on tour around the country as it gave fans a chance to see the national team without being treated as walking wallets. Unfortunately everything is too London centric. MrE

Moon, so you think Zaha for £10m is a little steep, but you think it's unfair for me to judge his fee against Alberto's £7m fee because we haven't seen how he turns out. Well you do not know how Zaha will turn out so isn't it a little unfair for you to say £10m is a little steep?

With Zaha being English and therefore having a premium, is £10m really that excessive? Especially when you consider that the payment structure is in yearly installments.

Sydney!

23 Jun 2013 19:37:24
That wasn't what was written. The journalist Ken Lawrence was only speculating who he believes might be leave as part of a shake up of the squad! Carrick was on his possible list but I don't believe moyes would let go a player who gave his finest season in Manchester United shirt last year.

23 Jun 2013 18:14:36
For anyone interested; Varela currently playing for Uruguay U20 on Eurosport 2.

Henriquez just had a quite poor game for Chile U20, and then Cole, Johnstone and Thorpe are in the England squad who play later on.

Cheers no name, good chance to see him in a competitive match.

Brendan81

23 Jun 2013 17:06:11
Just watched the DVD reviews from the 2006-2007 & 2007-2008 seasons and one thing that really struck me was how good Wayne Rooney was back then. I knew it at the time, but watching it back he really was world-class at such a young age. For me, he had/has all the ability in the world, his problem is his commitment and desire to be better. Had he switched on at that age the way Ronaldo did in terms of looking after himself, setting the goal to be the best and working hard every day and dedicating his life to achieving that goal, Rooney would be in the top three players in the world along with CR & Messi. I love Rooney and he will always be a legend for what he has helped United achieve, he has had a fantastic career no matter what happens. I just think he could have done so much more and been considered unquestionably a top, top player worldwide had he been more committed.

I know, and how different did Evra look. He looks like he has aged 15 years.

Sydney!

You're right, he was incredible when he was younger, brilliant. I think he peaked early though and is now at the point of his career that most players reach in their early thirties. If anyone offers £25 million +, united would be silly to turn it down. Especially when you take what they'd save in wages into account too.

Matt

Rooney was incredible back then, pace, acceleration, power, touch he had it all. The goals he scored against AS Roma and Milan at OT in 07 were probably the most breathtaking goals i've seen.

His frustration these days on the pitch are more related to his own inability to do what he used to imo.

REDFAITH

23 Jun 2013 16:12:22
Moon, what an outrageous assertion to make:

'Completely agree, what I tend to find is that clubs like Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool are very good at finding youngsters for cheaper prices in the English leagues. '

Can you help me to name 1 player for any of the above named first teams that was a cheap buy from a Football League club?

I'll help you out by ruling a few out -
Walcott - £9-12mil
Oxlade Chamberlain - £12-15mil
Shelvey - £3-5mil
Carroll - £35mil
Henderson - £18-20mil
Downing - £18-20mil
Shevchenko - £30

Not cheap, not cheap, not very good, not cheap, not cheap, not cheap, not cheap or wait a minute. how long since Chelsea actually bought young English talent?

The general consensus, I would speculate, would be that only Oxlade Chamberlain would be good enough for Manchester United from that list. But he wasn't cheap.

Feel free to give me examples that support your point. However I think you'll find that most would not be acceptable transfers for most fans of Manchester United. And more importantly, please feel free to offer up any gems I may have missed, because I'm always greatly amused by Liverpool's transfer policy.

Couldn't agree more. Liverpool's transfer windows have been comedy gold for me.

Sydney!

I agree with Nizza here. United have bought the best of the English lot by far. They may not have exactly come in cheap, but when you look at what other English clubs have got we are far better off.

And Liverpool's transfers during Dalglish, Hodgson and the last year of Rafa were good entertainment.

REDFAITH

In fact we should have paid more when Bale was moving. What a mistake that was!

Carroll, Henderson and Downing weren't playing for football league clubs when they were bought.

I have no idea why you mentioned Shevchenko.

Shelvey is actually a decent prospect.

now, let me justify my claim; Bertrand came from Gillingham, Carl Jenkinson, etc.

there are also a LOT of youth players signed from football league clubs by Chelsea, Arsenal and especially Liverpool.

My point wasn't that there are loads of "Manchester United quality" players (that term p1sses me off so much) sitting in the lower leagues, it was that we get charged HUGE prices compared with other 'big' EPL clubs.

I mean I would take a 16YR Walcott over Zaha. I would also take an 18YR Ox over Zaha.

Not that Zaha is a bad player, but the fee we got charged was crazy.

In fact another MAJOR point I was trying to get at is that we have pretty non-existent relationships with Football League clubs.

Now, Being Spanish I couldn't care less but its something United need to address. the reason the La Liga clubs do so well at producing young spanish players is because they have great relationships with the teams below them.

Its quite simple for me, English football is Arrogant. It's over-rated and the mindset of always buying abroad IS going to destroy the national team completely.

For example, I've seen tons of suggestions on here and in the media about young players like Kovacic, Dzagoev, Goretzka, etc.

when there are players just as good in England such as Max Clayton, Will Hughes, Mason Bennett.

All will cost the same prices give or take £1M-£2M.

Maybe my claim was a little out there but at the end of the day my point is that United don't have the British affiliations that maybe they should especially when you look at the relationships between top clubs in other countries with the smaller clubs in those countries.

Didnt he say cheap players from the leagues below which only 3 on your lish comes into it

The reason we get charged so much is because we buy the best of the lot from the lower leagues. The best costs a premium. I don't exactly agree with the Zaha fee, but when we complain about not paying over the odds to get some foreign player then we shouldn't complain about paying a premium for the English players who once signed are likely to remain at the club for their entire careers.

REDFAITH

Is £10.3m for Zaha that high? He's English and still 20. He is on seriously low wages and the £10.3m fee will be paid over the length of his contract which suited both MU and Palace.

When you consider Liverpool have spent £7m on some Spanish lad who nobody has heard of before now, I think it's not a bad deal. Also, did you say Shelvey is a decent prospect?

Sydney!

JonJonJo Shelvey is a decent prospect? This must be up there with "Liverpool will finish 4th prediction". And then you keep harping about that you are Spanish. Paying 11 m (approx) for the best English player in the Championship is not paying through the nose. Yes may be a little over priced, but who cares? Neither of us are paying it. Funny that you mention Liverpool who paid 35 million for the Geordie donkey. With statements like these, you definitely lose any credibility. And you talk about the English media over hyping players, well every decent football fan would judge for themselves, rather than falling for a rousing eulogy by a tabloid. Spain as a footballing nation is head and shoulders above others but your league is devoid of any competition. Doesent make for interesting viewing.

Deeps.

Granted, my list comprised of some players above the Football League. That was just to show you that other teams hugely overpay for young English talent. And in the same breath, you never mentioned the Football League in your claim, that was something I dropped in.

I will also grant you the notion that Spanish teams have better relationships with smaller clubs, especially B-Teams. Its something that is looked into by some managers in this country (Wasn't Moyes one of them?) However, it wasn't part of the claim I was disputing and is of little interest to me as a discussion point.

Ultimately you justify your wild claim with the use of Carl Jenkinson and Ryan Bertrand. And add etc as if there are more. I don't think either are particularly good buys. You could say 'you get what you pay for'. We buy better, we pay more.

I, like you, dislike the phrase 'Manchester United quality'. I find it fairly meaningless and lacking in any insight. You'll notice I didn't use that or a similar phrase.

In order to change the direction of the discussion, or to wrap it up, can we agree that the premium for English players is induced by the quota system and a lack of up and coming players due to regulations on training time?

And look at zaha who as been outstanding for under 21's

23 Jun 2013 16:05:45
TO DC 1989. What you replied was exactly what I was thinking about Rooney. Good on you mate. I have always thought that he was a good premier league player BUT! On the world stage ie Champions league, England etc he is mediocre to say the least.

Yet when Rooney plays well, people are all on here harping on about him being amazing. I personally tired of the Rooney posts. The facts are, he is a very good player, he offers a lot to the team, he scores and makes loads of goals every season, and he has loads of talent, but needs to improve his form, fitness and commitment.

23 Jun 2013 14:07:23
Apparently Rooney is to be offered in a swap deal for Ronaldo + Money in a deal supposedly worth around 90mil according to some paper talk.
Hoping it is true. Which means Ronaldo is talked about 'Major signing' that Moyes is going for.
Ronaldo + Strootman + thiago + maybe garay and we are finally back to contending champions league football.

Special K

The differences between united and the rest of Epl clubs, is we only go for the best players, and if we don't pay more we don't get them, you obviously have to pay more for good English talent because of the rules requiring a certain amount of English players in the squad, if you think that zaha is overrated I can't wait to see you eat your words in a few seasons.
Jase

23 Jun 2013 13:01:29
man u ins

bale 55m + nani
ronaldo 60m + rooney
thiago 17m
strootman 15m
baines 15m

total 147m

hope this happens probably not

23 Jun 2013 13:21:29
Yes of course we're going to spend almost 120 million on both Ronaldo and Bale. Fool.

Haha. Too much FIFA I think.

Matt

23 Jun 2013 12:29:24
I am growing disillusioned by all this thiago not signing rumors, does anyone have genuine positive news? would be music to my ears, thanks

23 Jun 2013 17:13:54
Yes, he put on twitter that he is signing a contract tomorrow in a message to David de gea. This was the immediately deleted. I know twitter isn't very good for rumours but it has been known for people quite often to put a message they thought nobody else could see and send it to everyone.

I would expect we will find out more tomorrow, looking forward to it.

I would give the advice to everyone to enjoy this time of year, take the rumours with a pinch of salt and look forward to some announcements. Don't be too upset if we don't sign the players you want, we won the league last year so even with no signing we aren't going to get relegated. I expect us to sign strootman, thiago and one or two more, if not then its not the end of the world.

23 Jun 2013 20:32:49
GDS
i've seen a lot of twitter pics about people joining us. However, why would he put it up on twitter and delete it, meaning he didn't want anyone to know. in that case he could have sent a simple text (mobile) to DDG? surely it does smell of photoshop
DJ.

It certaintly does, but like I said, we will find out more today, if he doesn't sign a contract today then it probably was photoshop.

23 Jun 2013 12:15:19
Hi eds, lots of people on here were very confident of big exciting news for last Friday, and now deals that should be done by the end of the weekend.
Am I in for another transfer window of having my hopes built up and then dashed again? Or have things been announced and I've missed them?
Strootman, alacantra, ronaldo, isco, Fabregas, heard it all before, all false dawns, please please tell me some good genuine news.
Keep up the great work, cheers Tookers.

The window isn't open for another week, these kind of posts do make me laugh. Don't get your hopes up about everything you read in the papers and you won't be disappointed when its a load of crap.

Agree with you tookers every window in last 5 years the same lots of false hope but it does sell season tickets

23 Jun 2013 15:23:36
So that lad in the number 20 shirt was a mirage then.

23 Jun 2013 10:19:29
Rumours regarding strootman seem to of gone quiet, does anyone have any news?

JS

23 Jun 2013 09:43:42
Seems Ed's are punishing us United fans that love this site because of a few mindless persons that troll them. , yet they have had the same issues on other pages but continue to post and comment!

Fred the red

Ed002 no longer comments on the Arsenal or Chelsea site due to abuse.

He/She does it voluntarily so shouldn't be subject to abuse and has every right to stop commenting on abusive sites.

Common ed 002. Start your own site with registered posteres and once u recieve any abusive language ban that i'd permenently straight away. I guess its enough that we regulars are getting punished for some silly people. This is a cruicial time to have inner views and informations and u people going awat will do no good.

Rodio17

23 Jun 2013 04:53:31
Thinking about the potential Thiago signing, I get more excited the more I think about it. I've always believed that United struggle when they play with two holding midfielders, allowing only 4 players to get forward. Having a player like Thiago that can both help start moves from deep or move in front of Carrick and help connect midfield with attack. Now just put this absurd Rooney to rest with a meeting btw him and Moyes and we have a squad that can challenge on all fronts for next season. Still believe we could use one more attacking player, but I don't see that many available players outside of Ronaldo and Bale that are guaranteed starters and that's what we need, not more depth. Also, while we haven't moved quickly to buy this transfer window compared to some squads we also haven't been quick to sell. There are certain players i'd be eager to see off the wage bill (Young, Nani, etc) and the fact that no one seems interested is disappointing.

23 Jun 2013 10:44:04
Only we've never played with two holding midfielders. We've never played with one.

So what role does Carrick play then?

23 Jun 2013 13:17:17
Carrick plays deep lying playmaker not holding midfielder. Fergie himself said he's never played with a defensive midfielder. We play with deep playmakers, box to box and attacking midfielders.