Manchester United Banter Archive October 23 2014

23 Oct 2014 21:19:27
When Moyes was appointed I thought it was a solid if unspectacular choice. First there was the clear out in the back room and then there was that awful transfer window culminating in the last day signing of Fellaini. We had a difficult start fixture wise and even though we failed to impress during that period, we still had some hope. But as the season wore on, with the odd exception, our performances deteriorated. After the City, Liverpool and Everton humblings David Moyes's position became untenable. There was no way back. He had spent 60m on 2 players who did not fill any immediate or conceivable future need. United was on a downward spiral and playing dull slow football. Most of all, it was hard to see anything changing under Moyes's stewardship. Had he expressed a coherent plan to the Board to turn it around perhaps he could have saved his position, but my guess is he had not been able to do so.

So in comes LVG. Not everyone's cup of tea, but, being realistic, who else was available? At least he had the gravitas for the job. For him, its a swan song appointment, it's risk he can afford to take, but for a younger manager it would potentially be a death knell. He allowed the purchase of two players identified by Moyes to go ahead - Herrera and Shaw - bringing Moyes's net spend to 120k. But he correctly realized these two players were simply not enough. So he started the process of buying and selling. Up to now his net spend is around 65m. And I think it can be argued that Rojo, Blind, Falcao and ADM not only represent far better value than Fellaini, Mata, Herrera and Shaw, but they are also the sort of players who fit into the tradition.

I can't predict the future but right now it seems to me the internal rot has stopped. The bad apples have been or are being identified and isolated. The general trajectory and demeanour of the squad seems positive. Whether the ascent will be quick enough or sufficiently stellar for us to be satisfied remains to be seen. Let's face it, we are a very spoiled bunch. Half us would be moaning even if we won only one trophy a year.

{Ed025's Note - good post that mate..

Peashooter

Good post, there are many of us from well before SAF arrived that know what a lack of vision and seasons without any hope of success looks like.

So two players shaw and herrera who where bought after moyes was sacked never played under moyes go down as moyes signings.

So moyes spent 120 mill and lvg only 65.

Well that's an other unbiased view

Good post Peashooter. I agree 100% with the Moyes assessment as like you I thought it was a sensible move at the time, it just didn't manifest that way.

I also agree with the players in and out assessment, we are definitely on an upward trajectory. This is certainly a positive aspect to LVG, I doubt ADM or Falcao would have signed for a Moyes Man Utd.

I just hope the manager starts to utilise the squad properly and strengthens the key areas required over the next windows.

. And I think it can be argued that Rojo, Blind, Falcao and ADM not only represent far better value than Fellaini, Mata, Herrera and Shaw.

Peashooter
And again surly you can't be arguing players bought after moyes was sacked, players identified by the club, players lvg has said he sanctioned should go down as a moyes buy.

Its getting ridiculous .
by the way herrera and shaw will both turn out to be great players for the club imo

If Herrera can sort out his distribution he will be pure class once settled into a rhythm.

I think Shaw needs to figure out how to play with ADM, both of them aren't anywhere near the same wave length at the minute. Obviously as Shaw grows in confidence he will be more dynamic, at the moment he is scared to attack when ADM is playing and ADM is too unpredictable for him.

Both these players have to go down as Moyes/LVG signings. I doubt we would have signed them if Moyes hadn't wanted them in the first place as we needed to court them and LVG could have easily pulled the plug when he came in, but decided against it.

My concerns are that Blind & Rojo were not targets and were desperation buys. However they both look capable versatile squad players - they were not primary targets and only came about because we couldn't sign preferred players and half decent World Cups.

Peashooter, I agree with the escence of your post that we are currently seeing a positive trajectory from the past 18 months.
The whole who brought who and who is responsible for what is pointless. If Moyes is taking the blame for Harera and Shaw spend then he also will need to take the credit as these start to pay off which i think they will as the season progresses.
Fact is that the changes that were made with back room staff were not all necessary and the changes on the playing staff were not made. Part of this will be at board level as I am sure they were convinced that minimal change was needed as we had just won the title. unfortunately that showed what a great manager Sir Alex was not what a great team we had.
We are in transition, need to be there or there abouts in January when he will do the next round of building with 1 or 2 more and maybe a couple more leaving. Hopefully we will have top 4 come the end of the season when our metamorphasis into the LVG team will be completed, dead wood removed and the players he wants for his system (433 long term i believe) will then be fitted in.
Will be a long process, painful, enjoyable but hopefully successful as well

Great read peashooter! I was also in favour of Moyes' signing until he opted for the drastic change, then already we could sense we were heading in the wrong direction.

Personally i think shaw and herrera will both come good. new players, new sysytem, new manager and some new staff, give it time and once it clicks we'll see the united we all want to see.
100% agree on the moyes analysis too

Moyes wanted Hummels Fabregas and Kroos what a team he would of had but it just wasnt happening for him

Peashooter

Would have to completely disagree on Shaw and Herrera mate and the new manager is yet to prove he can set up a team that defends well organised at the back.

23 Oct 2014 17:20:46
So Victor Valdes will join the club (not officially) while he fights to regain fitness. Interesting. I prefer Dave the Save to Valdes any day of the week but like the idea of preventing him from going to Liverpool. That could actually be the difference between us finishing fourth or fifth the way things are going!

23 Oct 2014 09:41:07
I have seen quite a few posts on here now saying 'you are hypocrites, you gave Moyes no time and now are backing LVG to do better despite a worse start'. This argument only seems to suit people now but actually bears very little truth.

In fact at this stage last season some of the same people who are going against LVG already were giving people a lot of stick for 'giving Moyes time'. If you look at my posts and also many other people's posts from this time last year we were all willing to give Moyes the time to get it right. I know the exact date that I stopped backing Moyes and that was after the 2-2 draw with Fulham on February 9th, where it was clear we had no plan and the football he wanted us to play was not what we expected from Manchester United.

So before calling people hypocrites for backing LVG just for the sake of it, think back to this time last year when you were slagging people off for backing Moyes.

In my opinion LVG clearly has a better plan than Moyes, the style of football we are playing in a million times more exciting, and we are guaranteed goals every week. Last season in home games against City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Tottenham and Everton we scored 2 goals. In one of them games this season we scored 2 goals. I heard Beast say it is results that matter and not performance, but if the performances are a million times better then the results will come, surely that is obvious? Remember we have't lost a match since 21st September.

Gds
It works both ways .
Some people wanted moyes out from day 1.
Yet has lvg really done a better job so far.
For me its hypocritical to shout for one manager to get the sack from day 1 and argue for the next to be given time .
Lvg has added 200 mil worth of talent to the team moyes had and had a easy start .
I don't see a better team as such just better individual players, if that makes sense .
We would of looked a better team last season with di maria . We would of looked pretty average this year with out di maria.
Last year i said i didn't think moyes was the right man for the job but he needs time to prove he is .
This year i don't think lvg is the right man (which i said from day one ) but he needs time to prove he is

Never wanted Moyes in the first place but backed him nonetheless didn't really mind losing against the big teams and like gds the draw with Fulham was the time I stopped backing him against that Fulham side this year we would win comfortably results will come Chelsea dropped points last year aginst small teams but are title favourites this year

I think the point missing here guys is we should bqck our new manager, some of us believed last year that Moyes got unfairly sacked and there were some that were happy that we got rid of him to help the team improve in football terms.

Its just a matter of opinions and we should value each others input. I also believe it takes time to build a team just look at the examples of Man City's first few years under Sheikh Mansour.

You can buy as many world class players as you want but if the team don't know each other and they are not used to each others play then we will be struggling.

Just look at the example of Mk Dons beating us, they won because of Mk Dons team had the same players playing everyday and they destroyed us.

We all know that our team isn't complete we are lacking a top cb and cm. Once we have that and then we would need to be playing consistent good football for us to challenge for major trophies.

In the meantime we should we should enjoy the ride we are going to get loads more of Mk Dons and west Brom nights in the forseeable future and until we don't back our Manager we will not move forward.

23 Oct 2014 16:31:34
jred,

I agree it is 100% hypocritical to shout for one manager to be sacked and then ask for the next to be given time, but can you give an example of one person who has actually done that? Certainly not me.

It makes sense what you say about better individuals and I agree with you to some extent, but it takes more than 5 games (that is all they have had since the end of August) to start playing as a team, and they have only lost 1 game playing together 3 wins, 1 draw, 1 defeat since 31st August isn't exactly a bad return.

Jred

What makes you think he's not the right man?

23 Oct 2014 16:47:13
I'm in agreement with GDS2 the progress is there plain to see, LVG has in plan no doubt about it,Moyes didn't he had no plan he still had no plan up to the time he got sacked.And a very important point, the football was pretty bad at times

Also, Technically Speaking.

Moyes had a pretty much a full Squad from Fergie with hardly any Injuries I recall, Plus a fairly settled back four with Rio, Vida and Evra all available.

It can be argued also that we did not, have Shaw, Herrera, Di'Maria and Falcao until late into the current season/Missing for chunks due to injuries and also missing the experience of our 2 late CB's.(Our biggest reason for our progress slowing in my eyes, but that's a separate argument)

I do know one thing for sure and that's when those players were available and playing we improved and that's the whole point. There's progress happening, to compare our football to Moyes football is laughable.It's all if and buts saying if Moyes had those players he'd be in a better position or there abouts,its an irrelevant point. I seen the self belief in the squad return for the last 10 minutes of the West brom game trying to get something out of it, we never got that from Moyes, which is another positive direction in our step towards Progress.

It boils down to quality and LVG has brought it in plain and simple, there's been bumps in the road with injuries unsettling the squad, not to mention new players bedding in period which needs to be factored in.

23 Oct 2014 16:57:49
Patience is a virtue that seems to be lacking a lot amongst people on this site.

Gagus.
What makes you think he is .
He done a great job at ajax but the ajax set up was unbelievable at the time . To be fair lvg should take some credit for that but imo he has never reproduced that success .
His first spell at barce was quite good 2 titles built on rivaldo but that was 15 plus years ago and for me its been down hill since .He fell out with everyone at barcelona and walked away took the dutch job and never qualified for the world cup, went back to barcelona got sacked after 6 month, they were a couple of points of relegation at the time. And fell out with everyone again.
Went back to ajax lasted 6 month and fell out with everyone.
I thought his munich team where poor, he got sacked there after a couple of year again after falling out with everyone .

On the plus side he won a title at az and done ok with the dutch although i don't thing they played great football. that's maybe over critical.

But he has a habit of falling out with players, directors media etc and at the moment i think that is the last thing we need.
I haven't seen a team he has managed really impress me with the exception of the odd game, fir the last 15 year.
Also he doesn't stop long at a club and has no epl experience which for me is a bad combo.

I think he is a decent manager but 4 titles in 20 year would suggest good not great .
i think he will do ok at united as i think we will throw money at the club but he has the potential to spit the dummy out as well .

The only aspect of management in which I think LVG betters Moyes is how he comes across in the media and even there he's already had to backtrack on his 'three months' comments (not to mention his 'philosophy').

From a results point of view we've done considerably worse under LVG than we did under Moyes (we might be a point better off but had played much harder games last season and hadn't lost 4-0 to a football league side either). Tactically LVG has played 3 or 4 different formations in 8 games and our injury record under him is terrible. Whilst he made some good signings he failed to sign the top cb and cm that we needed to sign this season. As for the football looking better; did I imagine us playing Fellaini up top the other day and hoofing the ball to him? Once you take take out the individual brilliance of Di Maria we've been incredibly boring to watch this season (unless you're a neutral - in which case I imagine our defensive frailty is incredibly entertaining).

Gds
Im not going to get in to he said this he said that.
But as a regular poster on this site for a while now i can tell you there where several.
I keep reading lvg has a plan but i can't see it .
He took over the club and told everyone we would play 3-5-2, a formation he stumbled on at the world cup . don't forget his philosophy for 25 year had been built around 4-3-3.
He set the entire club up to play 3-5-2 youth an all, it lasted 3 games.

We have spent mega cash on top players and they have made a difference but as of yet i dint think lvg has done anything special.

People keep comparing him to moyes but honestly after 8 games what has he really done.
Like i have said he is a decent manager but imo if he had a different name he would be getting slated by the same people who are praising him

23 Oct 2014 18:32:41
redseven our injury record under Moyes wasn't great either, infact pretty much every season for the last 5 years we have had terrible injury records. What did Moyes do about it? Nothing. What has LvG done about it? Well he moved the first team fitness coach away from the first team, so let's see if that has an affect.

Jred firstly I was one of those who didn't want Moyes, I didn't see what made him stand out as a United manger the same as redman. I was prepared to give him time, and like most others expected a hard start. The simple fact is instead of things getting better they got worse and worse. We saw woeful displays with players looking disinterested, we'd concede and have no fight.

Contrast that with this year, players look interested, we concede and we try and get back in games. Yet you think there's been no improvement?

Also its all very well saying we'd have done better last year if we had AdM, but who says he would have wanted to play for Moyes? Clearly the majority of the squad last year didn't want to. Even Rooney slacked off once he got his payrise.

Simple fact is we were left in a mess, Neville, Scholes, Keane, Giggs were never replaced, Evra, Rio, Vidic were allowed to get old. What replacements were brought in such as Nani, Anderson etc failed. Our youth system needs a massive overhaul.

Lvg's a builder, the success Barca had were in part down to LvG. Same with Bayern.

Mort
With one exception (last week ) we have finished every game poorly .
We have added 200 mill of talent yet look awful at the back .
we are on our 3rd formation in 8 games .
our injury record is awful which was moyes fault last season but not lvg this ?
We have 1 more point than we did last year after an easy start.
So i don't see the massive improvement lvg has made.
infact moyes would of got slated for this start.

the club have done great splashing the cash tho.
im excited before a game again its great to watch di maria and falcao.

Also redseven is right on the money.

Jred

I said Moyes would be an utter disaster before and then when he was appointed. Once he was appointed i then tried to see what his plans were. There weren't any. LvG wasn't my first choice but I can see what he is trying to do and if he succeeds I believe the next manager will be the main beneficiary.

I don't believe in blindly following and supporting the manager, I support the team and the club. The manager is an employee who has to earn my loyalty, however I can see in LvG quite a few things that I believe he is doing correctly, something I didn't with Moyes. I am not someone who will be railroaded into loyalty to LvG however he has set out his stall in a way I like. I think our performances are developing, I think his attention to detail in training fascinating. He is bringing a professionalism to the club, a methodology that I buy into until I see something that significantly changes that. We could lose 5 nil on Sunday and it won't change that because LvG has given me a glimpse of what he brought to his previous teams. People seem to judge him as the next SAF here for years, no that isn't his history, he puts all the building blocks in and doesn't settle. I am supporting LvG, not because of a three line whip and almost being embarrassed into it by those who say we must support a manager longer than x games but because he is doing things that needed doing 12 months ago.
I am staying with it

Redman
so what exactly has he done

I didn't say I believed he was the right man, I just asked why you thought he wasn't.

Jred

Have you actually noticed the improvement in our ball possession? The attention to detail in training and preparation, the fact the flotsam like Nani, Cleverley were identified and jettisoned?
The football we are playing is actually enjoyable, I feel like I am getting value from buying a ticket. I see a team actually bonding and fighting for a result together, something not seen last season.
I have to say I find it amazing that people seriously don't think there isn't a big difference from last season, LvG is not my preference but I can see what he is doing.

Red man
The club have bought well .
What have you seen that lvg has done .
Blind, di maria the new lads have made a big difference, but what has lvg done .
Our first couple of games where like last season then we got di maria who for me has been the major difference.


But imo its been a poor start which is reflected in our points and league position.
We have good players but tactically so far i don't think lvg has been great, infact i think 3-5-2 with the cbs we have was a disaster .

Like i said the club have bought well

Jred

I think you just don't want to see

I get the impression you want to go back to Moyes because you think he would prove your theory that he just needed time.

I guess with LvG you can't or don't want to see the leadership he brings, and agree or not the direction he has set. You mention 352 well he is trying to give the players tactical awareness and give the option to change to meet different challenges plus play with what he had available
Sadly I have to wonder if you are another who craves to have been right about Moyes all along
We go on, time will tell if LvG will succeed but for me he is doing the right things shaking it up totally unlike the last useless incumbent

Interesting discussion, I am in agreement with Jred as usual as we seem to agree on quite a few things.

I don't believe he is asking for a sacking and neither am I but we would be fools to think the new manager is doing well given our results and our expenditure and talent in the team.

I am concerned with the tough stretch of games that we have coming up and how would people feel if come mid point of the season and we are sitting 6 to 8 points off 4th place,

Would everyone accept that?

Red Man - I don't see this "team bonding" or leadership. I want to see it desperately.

LVG just sits and scribbles with almost no input during a game. This is not some lab experiment, if he has something to say to improve the team surely whilst they are playing is the time to say it, like 99% of other managers do? He is allowing mistakes to continuously happen and then tries to clear it up after the game, sacrificing the current match with his laziness/stubbornness. All the while players are terrified to make a mistake so they either play it safe or look uncomfortable on the ball, (except ADM).

We look disjointed, there are very few passages of play that excite. The only time I get that "Man Utd" feeling I used to enjoy is when ADM picks up the ball and attacks. Otherwise it is side to side, running forward to pass it back then a hoof.

Not sure if anybody has pointed out that RVP was our captain again against WBA - this was LVG's decision and RVP had yet another shocker.

Possession counts for nothing if your chances are pot shots from 30 yards and the keeper doesn't have to make a save.

Beast

We fought with 10 men against West Ham for a long time to retain the win, we relied on DeGea against Everton but fought to keep the win, at West Brom we showed spirit to come from behind twice and kept looking for a winner. This is a new team that will take time. People conveniently forget we have thrown 5 or 6 new players into the team and are not giving enough credit for the signs of growing spirit. Moyes inherited the Champions full of confidence and destroyed it, LvG has had to build from that with new players. We could have done with another year of Vidic but it seems Moyes didn't retain him so LvG was left a right mess.
We may add two more players in Jan and have to integrate them. The team is younger certainly last weeks defence was and I feel it will develop.

Gcu
Thats my point, i have said many times lvg is a decent manager and will do ok at united but to argue he is doing a great job now would be foolish. If lvg is doing a good job koeman must be a footballing god.

If you look at the op about people being hypocrites i think some of the above post speak volumes.

Redman
I think you need to read my post again.
I never though moyes was the right man and i don't think lvg is but i will give BOTH time to prove they are.
Lvg has had a worse start than moyes imo or at least as bad .
Its far to early to judge but this time last year you and others would of been tearing sherds of moyes in this position.

Just to point out i wouldn't of went for moyes or lvg .

One final thing try judging lvg on the last 8 games and our league position rather than comparing him to moyes

23 Oct 2014 07:18:36
I'm with those who think that based on the fixture list, we could reasonably have expected more points by this stage of the season. Nevertheless I'm not prepared to condemn LVG yet.

There have been some improvements. Our attacking play has shown some signs of improvement and, judging by last weekends match, at least we seem to be returning to the days when we were able to mount a sustained attack at the end of match in search of a winner or equalizer. This improvement has come despite some very poor overall performances by supposedly key players like RVP and Mata.

RVP in particular has been a major disappointment. He had a great first half of 2012 but since then he's just not looked good. You can go back to his whiffed shot at Real Madrid as the time when it started to go wrong. I thought at the time he was a short term palliative and there's been no reason to change that opinion. I agree with the person below who said he may well become LVG's Achilles Heel. Personally I don't like him and find him very arrogant - someone who sulks if he's not the top man. I would never have bought him and I'd sell him as soon as the January window. He's bad mojo.

Defence and midfield have simply not yet gelled. Whether our current crop of players have enough quality, I don't know, but I'm prepared to give it until January to see if, based on fewer injuries and more consistent selections, there's some improvement. And at that time we will also have a limited opportunity to dip into the transfer market to address those shortcomings.

Moyes left us with some serious issues. He panic purchased Fellaini and Mata and presided over the complete neutering of the United mystique. As a result of his lack of a coherent plan he took us backwards more than any of us could have imagined. And now, despite this year's acquisitions, the squad remains deficient in many ways and, as the contributors to this site demonstrate from their posts, it's extremely difficult to pick a balanced team. As the Eds said during the summer, it's going to take 3 windows.

The Beast may end up being right about LVG, but even if he is, we still have to address the issue of who might have been available as an alternative. SAF was not on the table and he still isn't. Would a younger manager have wanted the job? A Pocchetino or a Koeman (who's done a great job thus far at Southampton) would have risked setting their careers back for years had they tried and failed at this job. Look what it's done for Moyes. The reality is that there are very few managers who can succeed in a job like managing Manchester United where constant success is an absolute requirement. Our choices then and now are extremely limited. It's this part of his argument that I find most unrealistic.

Finally I must say I hope he's wrong and that LVG succeeds. The club may be able to sustain one more year without European football but two might indeed bring on the disaster he is predicting.