Manchester United Banter Archive July 27 2012

 

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27 Jul 2012 23:31:52
The nick Powell transfer just goes to show that Fergie is more than capable of keeping a done deal under wraps until he is ready to announce it to the public. The deal was done before the playoff final yet there were still rumours flying about after the final linking Powell with other clubs. I'm really hoping this is the case with moura aswell

JaZz

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I hope it's the case with Martinez...or any other CM for that matter!

Andy

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For me any of Modric, Cabaye, Martinez or Sahin would improve our team loads, and would make our summer a very good one. Gilly

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27 Jul 2012 22:53:17
Right now let me start by saying this is my opinion, i know it will more than likely be unpopular but it's my opinion none the less.

Lucas Moura is a player we shouldn't sign. I can imagin the looks on your faces at that comment, so let me explain.

He is a very talented but extremely raw player with next to no end product. Now people will say that Ronaldo was similar but i'll say is our team in a similar position to that when Ronaldo signed? When Ronaldo signed we had Rio Neville Scholes Giggs and RVN all in their prime which ment we had alot of players about to carry the team while Ronaldo got his game time needed to improve. He could be slack with his defending as he had Neville behind him to mop up, if he didn't do something to win the game it didn't matter as either Scholes Giggs or RVN did.
Moura wouldn't have this luxuary, we are a team in transistion and as such we can't carry him while he learns his game.

Then there is his position, He plays behind the striker or on the right wing, he can't play on the left. So he is in direct competition for a place against Nani Valencia Rooney and Kagawa of which he will lose out 9 times out of 10. So it will be hard for him to get the same number of games as Ronaldo had during his early years. He'd be more than likely limited to 20-30 minute cameo appearances toward the end of games similar to how Nani was introduced, and you can see how much longer it has taken him to settle as a first team regular.

Now all the experts in Brazil and Mourinho believe he isn't ready yet, and i would be inclined to believe them. I feel the only reason were moving for him now is to get the jump on everyone else as we wouldn't stand much chance if everyone else through their hat into the ring. But no one else seems willing to take a risk on him yet.

Juan Manuel Iturbe was tipped as the next Messi, he's moved to Porto and hasn't done much, not because he isn't talented but because the leap to europe is a hard one and he wasn't quite ready. Now how much easier is it to play in portugal compared to england? Still wanna gamble 30m+ on a player who may not be ready?

So is it worth spending 30-35m on a player who isn't ready and who wouldn't have a place in our team? To me this seems silly, it's not like we don't have other areas of the team which need attention.

If we are to sign an attacking wide man type player who has the ability to play more central then it would make much more sense to sign someone who is either left footed or at least more at home on the left hand side, it would also be good if they we acclimitised to european football and be of an age where they can have an imediate impact and not just be one for the future. I think the best option could be Nico Gaitan, he has all the attributes and the only reason people don't rate him is because he didn't rip us a new one when he played us. But i think the players we should be looking at are Gaitan, Muniain, James Rodriguez and Gaston Ramirez, as all fit the criteria we need.

Shappy

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Like u say its ur opinion and i respect that but till we all see the lad play over here none of us will know wot he is like i would love to see him come and defiantly dont think he would be rushed into the 1st team he will play enough but fergie aint daft my opinion is that we will get moura keep nani for another season while moura settles gets use to the league by getting games and once ready will take over from nani but hey who is to say we will even get him?

Calvin

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I'm not sure that I agree with you Shappy. For some players, pressure can be a killer - and it can essentially prevent progression to the players fullest potential. However for players like Ronaldo (and I stress that there ARE similarities between the two), the pressure was the keystone to their success. Ronaldo was a fairly selfish player when he arrived at United - he then was restricted to wide right - but his confidence, and in some cases arrogance only made him a better player.

Lucas is renowned for his self belief. He is not the best finisher currently, but that doesn't stop him trying and that is a very good quality in a player. Wouldn't matter how many free kicks Beckham missed in one game - none of us were shouting "let someone else have a go" because we knew he could do it, and I think Moura will become a similar player in the sense of his confidence.

Of course some young prospects don't work out - but I don't think Fergie would bring out the big guns for someone who had no chance.

I want him here!

Joe

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Shappy, I agree with your assessment releated to Ronaldo signing. But that was past and do we still need to go by the past and trusted method. You took Iturbe as an example. But look at our very own Kagawa. Dortmund bought him from where?
I brought this just to tell that we can't compare in case of signings.
I am no expert but I believe SAF knows what he is doing. If he feels it would be better for the future of our club, I completely agree with him.
So I am not bothered he is a very raw talent... if we buy them :)
AJ

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It took Ronaldo 2/3 years of playing nearly ever week to become the player he did with us, Moura would need at least the same. But can we afford to give that to him considering the strength of the rest of the team isn't as strong as it was when they carried Ronaldo for his first few years. Also do we need to spend over 30m on a player with potential to be great in a few years but will offer precious little now? Haven't we got plenty of players with potential? We need players who can step in and be the differance in winning the league or losing it on goal differance now not in three years time. And like I said he'd have to play on the right at least to start with and he isn't gonna displace.either Valencia.or Nani or Welbeck for that matter. So we don't need a young player with potential who.plays in a position we are well covered for.and would be our most expensive signing ever.

It just doesn't make sense to me.

Shappy

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I agree in principle, it is a big risk and a lot of money and right now I don't know whether he'd fit into United's way of playing...but fergie has done wonders in molding players into different positions. He can play on the left and has done in the past. I'd much prefer, as I've said before, to have him in 2 years when he'll probably be one of the top players in the world than defend against him. Also, he would bring in the excitement and panache that our team has missed since Ronaldo left. I say sign him, more than anything he's what the fans need to restore some faith in the way the club is run!

Andy

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We have velencia Rooney rio vidic evra carrick young nani who can Carry the team, so that makes no sense.

Moura is class and If we don't buy him were going to regret it, just like with shearer, gasgoine, ozil, villa, silva ETC

MUFC1990

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I still think he will end up at inter with some kind of 3rd party deal
jred

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Shappy

I have had some of the same reservations; particularly since finding out he plays mostly on the right hand side, where we are best covered. On that note Rodriguez or Muniain could be good signings and could slot in more comfortably on the left where we are weaker. They also should acclimatise quicker

Having said that though I will be delighted if Moura does arrive. I trust the manager's judgement and would assume he'd have a plan in place, regarding who plays where. And it really would be good for the fans faith in out transfer dealings

As someone above said it would be ideal to get Moura and keep our other options for 1 season. Then we could look to move on Young/Nani next summer to leave us with 3 quality wide men, having given Moura a year to bed in

Gav

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Moura can play left, better than Young or Nani I'll wager. His game is about beating people with pace and trickery, and he does get past his man, he is capable of cut back type crosses with his left with could be very effective for Kags/Rooney/Hernandez etc and can cut inside and shoot like a mofo!

DodgyBanter

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Shappy - great original post. Seems unusual that there's only one team bidding 30m+ for 'the next best thing' doesn't it. Moreover though we need 23yo+ players who will integrate quicker as they are more mature / have more game-time. Hence Kagawa already a great signing and Gaitan would be ideal too.

Gav - completely agree if we got a 19/20yo, accepting we also need to have one eye on the future, it should be someone like Rodriguez or Muniain who would be cheaper options covering left wing rather than attacking midfield.


Halesini

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Muniain and Rodriguez would not be cheap by any means. Also they would both need to adapt just like Moura, but they would probably adapt a bit sooner, so we would benefit sooner. But Moura is a very talented player none the less. Gilly

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27 Jul 2012 22:13:12
ok i see that we need some signings like for LB but 1 dont understand why all the fans here r so obsessed with marquee signings saying they hav lost all respect for saf n all, as a matter of fact we have some very good players coming through if we are to buy big name players thn we will not be able to bring them through. In our youth teams most players are playing a year or 2 ahead of their age group tht jst shows the future is bright and in our hands. As for our 1st team squad other then a lb and maybe a striker i dont thnk we need any body else cus saf dont seem to be a fan of a rough dm.

BLOODDEVIL02

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Firstly we have no amazing players coming through, we lost our best two players in pogba and Morrison and that was cause they wanted game time and extra money.

But the fact is they wernt good enough for the first team or fergie would have played them.

Yes we need class signings cause our lack of sheer brilliance in our midfield is none existence.

To keep up with the current champions city and Chelsea in Europe there no doubt we have to buy.

Other teams are strengthening with known class while we're sitting waiting for our YOUTH.

We will just get left behind.

MUFC1990

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27 jul 2012 21:26:15
lets just bring in dembele (10-15m pounds).......,fellaine (15-20m pounds)...,oviedo (8-10m pounds) and then robin van persie (25m pounds) .....total 60m pounds and we are home and dry than to spend all that money on 1 or 2 players

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Fellaini would cost closer to 25m i suspect but Oviedo wouldn't cost more than 5m tops, probably closer to 3m. I also wouldn't spend more than 15m on RVP which wouldn't be enough to sign him so lets just pass on him.

Shappy

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Shappy, I think Van Persie would be great here. That would be a massive statement of intent. He would link up well with Rooney and Kagawa. Plus we all know he would score goals and he can create plenty. For around £20m why not. Gilly

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27 Jul 2012 20:25:01
I think with south american players they can take a while to settle into the prem, with the odd exception of players like Alex at Chelsea, but if we buy Moura now he could become a good player in a couple of seasons, when he is maybe 22/23, but for now I think we should aim to bring in a good experienced player in midfield such as Kranjcar, he has played in europe, played in the prem now for a long period, and played in international tournaments as well as captaining his country and is still 27, he would be a good creative midfielder to have, he could easily fit into the style of play and if he is on the bench he would be a good player to bring on when carrick or scholes or anderson get tired. plus he won't cost too much money and I don't think Spurs will try to hard to keep hold of him

chinners

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Is this a joke? He couldn't get in the spurs team, or the portsmouth team before that.

Ha

GDS

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Isn't he the bloke who can't get into the spurs side.... wtf would we want him?

Pardoe

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One he is nowhere near Utd class...And two he has just signed for Dynamo Kiev or someone like that...

fearny

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The same Kranjcar who signed for Dynamo Kiev in June you mean?

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27 Jul 2012 20:11:09
I beg to differ Jred.

Chelsea amount purchased £807,914,000
City amount purchased £649,180,000

I don't believe this is including agent fees etc either.

Sydney!

sorry syd
city
2005 9 mill
2006 2.4 mill
2007 46 mill
2008 127 mill
2009 125 mill
2010 154 mil
2011 76mill
which comes to 530mill
during the same period they have sold players with a combined total of 111 mill .

chelsea
2005 111 mill
2006 12mil
2007 40.5 mill
2008 24 mill
2009 23 mill
2010 99mill
2011 82 mill
2012 63 mill
which comes to 454.5
they have sold 145 mill

now before you dispute my figures just think of this if your figure for chelsea is right (807 mill) that would mean that over the last 7 years chelsea have spent on average 115 mill per season for the last 7 years

so i stand by
we have spent more on the debt than city or Chelsea have spent in the transfer market
Jred

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Spot on jred, excellent post

Flimbo

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I do not believe them figures are correct.

Since 2003-today Chelsea have spent £671m on players, City have spent £551m on players. I believe this is excluding agent fees & signing on fees which would add a further minimum of 15% to these figures.

The overall cost of interest, refinancing is £510m. I am not disputing this is a ridiculous amount and that it's completely unacceptable, but Chelsea and City have spent more.

Sydney!

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Www.transferleague.co.uk/premiership-transfers/chelsea-transfers.html.

Without access to Chelsea's accounts it's hard to know the true amount, but this has to be pretty close.

Sydney!

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Since 2008 Chelsea have spent more than £25m on agents fees alone. City closer to £30m just on agent fees. What about the five years previous? What about the player signing on fees over the 8/9 years? Then the VAT on the agent fees over the past 8/9 years. It's well above £510m my friend.

Still, imagine what we could have done with £510m more over the past 7 years.

Sydney!

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My bad, been doing figures from 2003 instead of 2005, few too many sherbets. Still think Chelsea & City have spent more in the same period when you factor in total player costs. But you make a valuable point mate.

Sydney!

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Ok so the issue is that the modern game dictates you must pay agent fees and there's nothing you can do so just get on with it.

Flimbo

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Syd
first of all you said chelsea spend was 807 mill now you are saying since 2003 it is 671 mill.

807 mill is the total chelsea spend since the epl has started the 2003 figure means nothing as the glazers never took over until. 2005 .
The glazers bought there first shares in 2003 but never bought the club and saddled us with the debt until , 2005 you are clearly wrong.

its almost as if you are trying to stick up for them.

transferleague.co.uk is the site i also used as well.
so since the glazers took over in 2005 and saddled us with the debt

we have paid 510 mill on the debt
in the same time city have spent 530mill on players but recouped 111mill on players sales .

chelsea have spent 454.5 and recouped 145 mill.

so back to my op.
"for all the people who say even with out the glazer debt we could not compete with city and chelsea remember since the glazers took over we have spent more on there debt than city or chelsea have spent in the transfer market"
jred

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Although it wouldn't have been 510m though would it? as if we weren't in debt then that money would have been profit in which case it would have been taxed, then on top of that what ever was left Dividends would have to have been taken out then what was left from that would have been available to transfers which would have been less than half that amount. Still a tidy sum but we can't compete with teams funded by sugar daddies, if we matched their bid they would just increase theirs and continue to do so until we were unable to match it. And then they would still get the players but the market would be even more inflated than it is now.

No the only way will will be able to compete is either to have a sugar daddy of our own(no thanks) or though serious and stringent rules in place to control spending.

Personally the system i like best is you have a wage cap on the amount of wages a club can have, say a clubs wage bill isn't allowed to be more than 50 or 60% of the clubs turnover thus to stop clubs getting into debt. Then i'd cap transfers to the amount a player is being paid over the length of contract they have left.

For example if a player is being paid 5m a year and he has 5 years remaining on his contract then he is worth 25m but when he only has 2 years remaining on his contract then he is only worth 10m. This i think is fair as the clubs will pay a player what they feel he is worth so then they can only sell him at their valuation of the player via his wages.

This would bring everything under control, unfortunately it won't happen.

Shappy

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Shappy
first of all andy green says.

"Dividends grew c.9% per annum from 2001 to 2005. At that growth rate, the 2006-11 dividend payments would have totalled £60.6m"
so dividends wouldn't off made a massive difference.
as for tax well that would off been on profits after transfers.

also
a. we dont know city or chelsea would of just offered more.
b. we dont know what players fergy would of liked to buy with lets say at least another 300/400mill .
c.its not just about players that city want for example what if wehad offered an extra 5/8 mill for sanchez would barce of matched that

we are one of the riches clubs in the world and could compete with most teams with out the debt.

Also for all the people who try to make out that the debt is not an issue and we are no worse off under the glazers, do you not think the above figures show we could be far more competitive with out the glazers.
jred

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Syd
i sent the post about you being wrong before your post came up , about you being wrong
jred

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That jred though is dividends as a PLC, under private ownership they could and would be much more. I know you'll say well if the Glaziers hadn't have taken over then we wouldn't be privately owned, which is true. But if the Glaziers hadn't have taken over would we have made as much money as we have since? They have massively increased the profit our club makes inorder to clear their debt so you could argue without that debt then the profits wouldn't have been pushed up as much as there wouldn't have been the need too. So its almost impossible to put a figure on how much money we could have spent if the Glaziers hadn't had taken over. But it is fair to say that we could.have spent more. Would this be enough.for.us.to compete.against.teams with a bottomless.pit of cash? No I don't think so. Would we have made a couple more signings? Yes, I think we would.have, but that doesn't mean they would.have been a.success. Also bear in mind the.process of.signing a player when we were a.PLC was.much more.complicated, this may have lead.to us.missing out on some.of the players.we.have signed under the Glaziers due to.the slow nature of signing players when your a.PLC.

What i'm saying is we don't know how things would have turned out had we not been taken over in 2005, and speculating isn't going.to help or.make a.differance. What happened happened and now we have to deal with it.

Shappy

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£510m is only the costs , the debt of over £500m to begin with needs to be taken into account. We are over £1bn worse off than we should have been

Red Man

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Shappy
510 mill gone out the club on debt in 7 years
244 mil in the same period spent on players.

i total agree with " what happened happened " but I don't agree with the "everything is ok we are no worse off" mentality of some people on this site.

i dont think any top team could compete at the top end of the market and service a debt like that .

also i think your comment off
" Also bear in mind the.process of.signing a player when we were a.PLC was.much more.complicated, this may have lead.to us.missing out on some.of the players.we.have signed under the Glaziers due to.the slow nature of signing players when your a.PLC. "
a bit of a strange one, when you look at the 7years before and after the glazers i think we missed out on less and managed to pull of more big deals before the glazers.

this isnt a glazer rant like you have said we are were we are or like GDS has said what can we do about it , but i hope the above figures are an eye opener to some people on this site and partial explain why others are so upset and frustrated with what the debt has done to the club.

jred

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Red Man

How to you factor the huge increases in revenue into that £1bn worse off though?I'm not sure TBH but it's not quite as straight forward as that

Gav

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How do you decide how much of the increase in revenue is down to the glazers and how much is down to the manchester united brand
jred

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Jred

I agree, which is why I didn't attempt to work it out! My point was it is not as simple as the way Red Man put it

Gav

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Gav

The increase in revenue may well have happened based on our brand , too many are far too quick to praise the Glazers for all of it. Whilst there is no way of being certain of whether the revenue would have increased as now we can actually be certain that we had no debt. We can also be certain we had over £500m in debts plus we know even more than that has gone out of the club. The Glazers have certainly looked to exploit every opportunity but they have had to in order to keep our heads above water.
Imagine what £1bn could have done for the club

Red Man

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Red Man, the Glazers are very clever business wise. We could easily get big sponsorship deals due to our brand but I think they have helped us get larger sponsorship deals. I reckon 10% at least. Plus we have had more deals with American companies during the Glazers ownership and I think that in part is down to them. Gilly

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27 Jul 2012 19:39:42
Last one of these I posted Lewandowski won over RVP 14-12

But i'd just like to know who people would prefer out of Witsel or Dembele?
(can only choose 1)

Agree for Witsel Disagree for Dembele

Kai

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I'm a huge fan of Dembele's but i feel due to the fact that CM has been his position for longer i feel atm Witsel just shades it for me. But if Dembele has as good a season next season as he had last then i'd pump for him. But for the price and his prem experiance i feel that Dembele is the more likely to join, which i wouldn't be unhappy about.

Shappy

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27 Jul 2012 19:33:42
Why do we constantly hear that Martinez should be our number one target. Yes he's good....but he hardly gets into the Spanish national team. They came 10th in the League.

Finally just because we're Manchester United it doesn't mean players are queuing up to join us.....I think Barca and Real Madrid might have a say....if he's as class as we think.

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When we bought the great Roy Keane had just been relegated with Nottingham Forest

Martinez and Muniain have been my irst choice for some time

Red Man

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If i'm being honest watching the Spain olympic game yesterday he looked very ordinary and was outplayed by a bunch of Japanese players...

fearny

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Ah well fearny he must be crap then.

GDS

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27 Jul 2012 19:24:42
I say we forget about Moura and turn our interest to Sahin. He's only 23 and I feel that he could fit into our midfield perfectly. It's also obvious that Madrid are entertaining the thought of cashing in on him.
i think a team like
----------De Gea----------
-Rafa--Small-Vidic-Evra-
------Carrick--Sahin------
-Tony---Kagawa----Nani-
--------Rooney-----------

would be able to compete in europe. This also leaves us with Welbeck, Chic, Scholes, Clevs, Ando, Young, Jones, and Ferdinand to rotate into the squad. I also think adding Sahin would allow us to play multiple formations more effectively.

Sparty On

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For the Moura money we could get v.Persie, Dembele and Sahin and probably Baines.

RedDevil19

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Really? 30 million for Moura, so van Persie and Baines would come to that together. In fact I'd say van persie 15-20, Baines 10-15, Sahin 15 and Dembele 10 so about 50 million all in and if we got Sahin we wouldn't need Dembele would we?

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That team would be v good with just the addition of a good new LB imo

Gav

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27 Jul 2012 19:02:53
After watching the nick Powell interview with fergie, he said the deal was done before the division play offs But wasn't announced tillafter it was completed as not to distract the player. I just wonder if we are using the same tactics for moura. I hope so

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27 Jul 2012 18:32:42
Something just occurred to me...two players I have seen little of but heard only good things about are G Ramirez and Wanyama (thanks for the critique the other day, Ed007 I think it was). Both have been mildly linked to us. Both are relatively 'affordable'

In all honesty I don't yet believe we are strongly interested in either but it just made me think we could sort out our midfield and wing/attacking mid positions with these 2 for a reasonable price. Which could leave money for a LB, most likely Baines (I know sorry)

Kagawa £12-17m
Powell £3-6m
Ramirez £20m
Wanyama £7m
Baines £14m

Total - £56m rising to £64m

I'm pretty sure we could land those 3 at the prices I've put. Taking into account outgoing players I don't think it's too unrealistic either

The question is, would fans be happy with this team?

__________DDG__________
Rafael__Sm'ing_Vidic__Baines
_____Carrick/Clev/W'ama___(2 from 3)
Valencia__Kagawa___Ramirez
_________Rooney_________

Gav

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I'd love to see Ramirez on the team...can play either wing or as a striker, and I think he'd take to the PL very well indeed. I don't know much about Wanyama, but personally i'd prefer Fellaini alongside Carrick/Cleverly. However I doubt we could get both Baines and Fellaini so i'd be happy with these signings (even though I said earlier that I thought we were finished for the summer lol)...

Kagawa 12-17
Powell 3-6
Ramirez 20 (maybe throw in a player to knock a bit off)
Felaini 18/20
Izzaguire 8/10

Pricey...and Nani, Anderson and Berbatov would probably have to go to balance the books, but I could live with that if we got Ramirez, Izzaguire and Fellaini!

Andy

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Yeh I'd imagine he would be good in a fluent front 4. Your team would be good too TBF though again I've not seen much of Izaguirre just heard good things

Gav

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27 Jul 2012 18:03:36
''So much for everyone saying moura would run riot at the Olympics he doesnt even make the team lol !
Dio''

Tbf, there are some fantastic players already playing in the same position as lucas. Who would you drop to fit him in? Hulk? Oscar? Neymar?
On another note, i was under the impression GDS was the worst culprit when it comes to defending the glazer, but i wrong, this TOMBOZ character definately takes the cake:
''The value of the club when the Glazers began to investigate the possibility of a takeover was around £741m. At the time (Feb 04) that was around $1.397b. Since the takeover the club's value has risen to $2.235b (Forbes.19/04/12) - which equates to an increase in value of approximately $838m''
TOMBOZ

I dont understand this obsession that some fans have with the rapid increase in united's value. This purely benefits only the investors i.e glazers. Can you tell me how the fans benefit from this? If anything, it goin to be detrimental for us should the glazers sell at such an inflated value. I ll explain how later.

Millz

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Never once defended the glazers millz lad, probably should read my posts before commenting. Always stated I think the glazers have been terrible for the club and the debt is a joke, I just don't see what we can do or what the point of moaning is.

GDS

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Maybe try reading the full post in context next time rather than picking a random segment?

Anyway. How exactly is the fact that we are now a bigger club with a higher turnover ever going to be detrimental to the club? I suppose somebody could purchase the club from the Glazers using the same methods of financing as the Glazers (ie by taking massive loans against the holding company) - but I'd be very surprised if that were to happen. Unfortunately I see the Glazers being at the club for some time - although on the bright side will be surprised if the club is not debt free in a few years time.

T0MB0Z

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27 Jul 2012 17:56:03
goalkeeper Peter Schmeichel has been appointed as an official club ambassador

TRUMORS

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That should read 'Goalkeeping Legend' ;-)

I still rate his save scooping it up and over the bar away to Rapid Vienna as the best save I have ever seen. Un-real!

Jono

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27 Jul 2012 20:38:34
Peter Schmeichel Gives a lesson to a Galatasray fan on pitch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLtzFDU1oYI

Legand!

Red Joe

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Agree with Jono.

That save was ridiculous!

G.A.G.U.S

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27 Jul 2012 17:39:00
''So much for everyone saying moura would run riot at the Olympics he doesnt even make the team lol !
Dio''

Tbf, there are some fantastic players already playing in the same position as lucas. Who would you drop to fit him in? Hulk? Oscar? Neymar?
On another note, i was under the impression GDS was the worst culprit when it comes to defending the glazer, but i wrong, this TOMBOZ character definately takes the cake:
''The value of the club when the Glazers began to investigate the possibility of a takeover was around £741m. At the time (Feb 04) that was around $1.397b. Since the takeover the club's value has risen to $2.235b (Forbes.19/04/12) - which equates to an increase in value of approximately $838m''
TOMBOZ

I dont understand this obsession that some fans have with the rapid increase in united's value. This purely benefits only the investors i.e glazers. Can you tell me how the fans benefit from this? If anything, it goin to be detrimental for us should the glazers sell at such an inflated value. I ll explain how later.

Millz

Believable1 Unbelievable0

27 Jul 2012 17:27:30
I know it's pre-season, but ain't we just screaming out for a couple of real quality midfielders ! With Fletch out, Anderson doing nothing, Giggs and Cleverly looking poor in the GB team, and Scholesy a year short of his 50th birthday, we've gotta move now.

If we can't get Martinez then it has to be
Dembele ! he wants to come..will cost £12m max. Nani is better than Moura, Valencia nailed on to be our best player again this season (unless Vidic gets back to near his best) we need a player or two to help Carrick ! Get Dembele now !

Believable1 Unbelievable3

Dembele is mainly a winger, so your suggestion isn't helping our CM problem but just provides back-up to nani, young, valencia and sometimes kagawa.
nov00

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Dembele is by no means a winger, he was initially a striker, but he has learnt how to play the energetic midfield role. He would be a good signing for around £10 million.

To the OP, Anderson is looking sharp, Scholes and Giggs must be used carefully. Cleverly will come good and we have good youngsters coming through - but someone like Dembele who has bags of energy wouldn't go a miss.

Personally, based on the strength of rumours, I fancy us to play a 4-3-3 with Carrick sitting, Kagawa the most advanced and then someone like Cleverly, Scholes or Anderson in between the two. Then a front 3 of Rooney, Van Persie and one of Young, Valencia and Nani.

RedDevil19

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Dembele over the season has made central midfield his own. He is a tidy player in central midfield, it's irrelevant that he used to play as a striker. Dempsey has gone from a central midfielder to a striker. It's not unusual for players to start as strikers as all kids like to score goals. Smalling was a striker, Rio was a striker. People find their true position in the end and Dembele could be a very good box2box midfielder. It's not bad having a midfielder with the finish of a striker.

Sydney!

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Dembele is a decent player i quite like him but how much is he going to improve our first 11, how much will he help close the gap between us and the best in europe
jred

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RD19

Ando stepped up his game v Shanghai to decent. Still sloppy and wastefull with his passing but he was rank the two previous games. He will need to start playing like Scholes on a good day every game to convince me he deserves a place at Manchester United.

Jono

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To the original poster - we could let you have Charlie Adam for £4/5m - he is better than anything you have down there

Puzzled

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Anderson cost in the region of 18M so I don't care what anyone says, the guy is a major flop and he needs to be offloaded and replaced with someone who has the talent and ability to play at the top level week in week out. Anyone who thinks we need Anderson in the squad more than Lucas Moura or Wesley Sneijder or Robin Van Persie knows nothing about football or what level of performance a world class player should reach each week either.

Flimbo

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You people may guess that the ED changed my prices - he deducted £10millions - trying to save me some grief

PuzzledD {Ed007's Note - Well you can't blame me for that one, I don't even let his name on here.}

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RD19

Bit of a change of heart over RVP now?

Flimbo

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Then I owe you an apology Ed 007 because I thought it must have been you

Puzzled

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27 Jul 2012 17:27:20
I think its pretty obvious that the lucas moura deal to manchester united is all but done...
here is why
alex ferguson 'until such time as we get a deal done he is not our player'
lucas moura ' At this moment I am a sao paulo player I havent signed anything offical with any other team'
It seems to me to just be a case of getting the contract signed and a medical completed which will be done after the olimpics,which is why he has said today my future will be sorted after it is over...
simple

Believable3 Unbelievable1

Completely agree.

To me it has that feel about it, it's just a matter of tieing up some loose ends behind the scene and lettings Moura get on with the Olympics.

Agree2 Disagree1

27 Jul 2012 17:26:24
if lucas moura is deciding on his future after the olympics then it suggests that we are still in for him.

Believable0 Unbelievable0

27 Jul 2012 17:19:16
In my opinion utd need to start searching for replacments for vidic and ferdinand now personally if we i had to pick 2 available defenders i woukd choose inigo martinez ( a classy ball playing cb but can also put in a tough tackle ) and Neven Subotic a strong defensive minded player who can tackle intercept and will put his body on the line as for a cdm my 1st choice would be javi martinez but we all know he will end up at barcelona so my 2nd choice would be Ezequiel cirigliano

Believable1 Unbelievable0

Chris Smalling is Rio Ferdinand's replacement and Phil Jones will be Nemanja Vidic's replacement and if he is turned into a defensive midfielder somebody will be signed until then though we have plenty.

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If we were to get a replacement for vidic in the future
i think the obvious best choice would be hummels, already in the 1st team for germany and will be easily one of the best cb's i the world.

TRUMORS

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We ar in for a young centre back, but its not going to be anyone as high profile as someone like Hummels. We have showed an interest in Jires Okore, Papadopolous, Varane etc in the past couple of years.

RedDevil19

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27 Jul 2012 17:11:13
Would definitely be happy with the these three signings added this summer:

RVP - £17m
Lucas - £28m
Dembele - £10 m
£55m

£50 m war chest plus a few sales i.e Kiko, Berba etc.

what do the rest of you think, neither Baines or Evra will want to sit on the bench and so I don't see a LB being signed.

tbir. {Ed004's Note - Or to make it slightly better. You could loan Sahin with an option to buy and sign M'Vila. A midfield of M'Vila and Sahin would be excellent}

Believable0 Unbelievable2

But how likely would tht be ed ?

Dio {Ed004's Note - Extremely unlikely}

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It's greeting so frustrating with all these cm sopposidly on the move to everyone apart from us !

Dio

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It will be something more like Baines, RVP and Dembele. If we don't get RVP it could well be Lucas, its very hard to say. Just one of them would do me.

RedDevil19

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Wanyama from celtic looks a beast 7 to 8m and sahin on loan with a view to buy for 15m next summer would be good buisness
and if the rumoured 50m budget like everyone is presuming leaves plenty of money in the pot for a special player !

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27 Jul 2012 16:37:25
Out of curiosity, does anyone think that Sahin has agreed to move to us on loan? I can't see it being Arsenal as Wenger seems relatively pleased with what he has, especially when he has Diaby and Wilshere back - if he does get anyone its probably going to be M'Vila. Spurs is a huge possibility and probably more likely than us as it could smooth out the Modric deal for Real. The other option for Sahin of course is us, we do need a midfielder like him and SAF/Mourinho - United/Madrid have had a pretty good relationship despite it always being our players going to Madrid. Out of 5, i'd probably say 2/5 for Arsenals chances, 3/5 for us and 4/5 for Spurs.

Even without Moura or RVP, Sahin, Kagawa, Powell + Left Back would be good. However i'm still sure that one of Moura or RVP will come on - the rumours are straying more to RVP than they are for Moura as it looks as though its either stay at Arsenal, or come to us as apparently Juve and Arsenal have pulled out of deals. £20 million for RVP, £12 million for Baines and a Loan for Sahin would be a very good spend of £30 odd million to go with the £15 odd million that we have spent on Kagawa and Powell.

RedDevil19

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Maybe. It seems like the kind of deal SAF would go for, a player on loan with and option to buy would be ideal especially because of his injury problems. But apparently RM don't have enough money for modric so a player + cash could happen aswell (most likely).
We can always hope...

Doni

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I dont think it's Arsenal, must be Spurs as part of the Modric deal.

CRMike

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I doubt it's Arsenal - Sahin and Podolski don't exactly see eye to eye. They've crossed paths several times in the Bundesliga , I seriously doubt he'd go to Arsenal. As for spurs I thought Sahin had refused to go there as part of the Modric deal already? Although maybe he'd accept a one year loan move. He'd be a great signing for us. Wicked left foot and can score from free kicks too.

BennyBlanco

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27 Jul 2012 16:32:03
I'm sure I am the only united fans who doesn't blame Tevez for leaving us! He was 4th choice striker behind Roo, Ronaldo, and Berba.
My point is, I think we need an Argentine with the winning mentality that Tevez had back in our line-up, Why not go for Lyons Lisandro Lopez, Great striker and knows how to find the net! Be much cheaper than RVP or Lewandowski, although i still dont mind if we sign RVP :).
-Newton Heath 1878

Believable2 Unbelievable3

Ok so all United need is an Argentine interesting post Tevez was a disease as he has shown in the past 6 months how he still has a contract at $hitty is beyond me. The world is full of players that can come in and do a job for United saying that Argentines have a winning mentality is wrong just look at the World Cup.

Darren-Bermuda

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27 Jul 2012 16:28:04
players that should be sold
anderson
young
berb
macheda
rooney, i know but if real or barca was to offer daft money.

Believable4 Unbelievable5

And then what ?
jred

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What a great plan that is. I think you should be our manager OP.

RedDevil19

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Thanks for the compliment.

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Guranteed that 1 agree is from himself.

Fool.

Ste-Utd

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27 Jul 2012 15:44:21
If you ask me i believe we should just go for decent,cheaper but good and skilfull players who dont have greedy agents like Moura's and have already excelled in the EPL like Moussa Dembele of Fulham(worth about £10m-£15m),....,RVP(£20m-£25m),....,Maroune Fellaine(worth £15m-£20m) and Leighton Baines (£12m-£15m),all a total of around £65m, but our team will be complete and good.....

Believable0 Unbelievable2

Cheaper options... RVP will most likely cost more in the end if we got both because he is demanding close to 200,000 a week

fearny

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27 Jul 2012 15:35:08
Lucas Moura "I'll decide my future at the end of the olympics".........

So reading inbetween the lines, does it mean that the decision is currently in his hands (i.e. Clubs have actually agreed a fee in principle)? If it wasn't in his hands, and the clubs are still way off their valuations with no fee agreed, would the lad still have made the same comment? My thought is no, as his party line would have surely been "It's the clubs decision, which I respect, etc. etc" and removed himself from the situation all together.

May be just looking too deep into the situation, however it is food for thought.

WF Red Devil

Believable2 Unbelievable0

27 Jul 2012 15:28:38
Man united should go and Get rvp they paid 30 million for beratov and he was the same age as rvp is now so why not With him and ronney we would be class

Believable3 Unbelievable2

27 Jul 2012 14:40:28
i heard some rumours that arsenal are going to sign Nuri Sahin on loan. damn manutd r we for really? if its true i don't think we are on the market to add some players in our squad. we all know we need a midfield and Nuri Sahin is of the best young midfield.he need to get some games and united can get that. sahin on loan,£25m moutihno,£12 barnes would made us stronger more than concentrating with one player for £31m

Believable0 Unbelievable3

27 Jul 2012 14:03:39
An inconsistent Nani is better than a consitently average Young.

Believable5 Unbelievable4

You worry about both though and i think sir alex does as well hence the interest in lucas
nani spar radically brilliant young hot n cold off a shocking euros! so if lucas deal goes wrong belhanda ramirez maybe targetted
or my chouce ocampos

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27 Jul 2012 13:41:31
Hi All, was it me or does Rafael look like he has been hitting the weights.
KevDarko

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Him, valencia n nani have definitely bulked up since joining united. lets hope de gea can do the same.

TRUMORS

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27 Jul 2012 13:29:35
'Decidirei meu futuro depois dos Jogos Olímpicos', afirma Lucas

'I will decide my future after the olympics', states Lucas

I don't think this Moura deal is dead just yet.

Red Joe

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Does anyone know if Brazil are scheduled to play at OT ? that may be the time when he is hooked? CAW

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I think they play one game in the group and if they top the group they play a quarter final there as I have tickets for that game...

fearny

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They play at OT on sunday I think.

Tommy

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Will be looking out for Captain Hook in the crowd at the weekend then
Invisible STuey

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27 Jul 2012 13:17:18
if we dont get moura which is unlikely now,we should turn our attention over to a CDM and striker presumably Witsel and lewandowski

Believable1 Unbelievable4

If we do not get Moura and Arsenal get Sahin on loan we have seriously got to consider M'Vila.

Rennes already have his replacement at the club and will be willing to negotiate.

15m would be enough and be money very well spent...

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27 Jul 2012 13:08:14
For any of the Eds.. Rumors suggest that Juve have dropped out of the chase for RVP! How true is this United and City are his only options then and he said he wants a club with history?
- Newton Heath 1878 {Ed002's Note - I really don't know about this "history" thing. Notts County?}

Believable1 Unbelievable0

I think it is Preston, first ever league winners!

GDS

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As he doesn't know where he is going perhaps it should be Geography !!!
Ellie

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History? Must be Liverpool;)
U.T.I.D

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Juve may have dropped out of the race for RVP, but he would never have sgned for them anyway. remember, he said he would never play in serie A.
nov00

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27 Jul 2012 13:00:28
What with City looking to build on what they achieved last season and Chelsea spending big on their midfield, Arsenal have improved their squad. We have no chance of getting in the top 4 next season ............. because Gerrard has had a chat with Brendan Rogers and has vowed that they'll get into the top 4 next year!! That's it, we just as well not bother!!!
Mitch.
ha deluded scousers are at it again!!

Believable5 Unbelievable1

27 Jul 2012 12:45:15
Scholes loves to just sit deep and spray those passes to the wingers.
Fergie has tried to turn Anderson into this type of player.
He doesn't seem to have the engine for bursting runs forward & back when he burst onto the scene with Gremio/Poto. His shooting accuracy is also shocking at times.
Petrucci seems to have a great range of short & long range passing and has been tried in that sitting in front of the two CB's to receive and spread the play in the reserves.
Could we see Petrucci get a few turn outs for the first team this season. He travelled a few times with the squad but didn't make the bench. Better than Gibson & more work ethic than (sometimes lazy Pogba) not bashing Pogba but when I watched reserves he seemed not bothered at times.

I'd really like to see Petrucci & Powell get some game time.
Tunnicliffe, Cole, Lingard & Brady to hopefully have a great season on loan in the Championship.

Also I really don't think we should mess about with Smalling & Jones playing RB. Keep them as CB's have Valencia to cover Rafael when needed & Giggs to cover Evra. They've played there before and let's face it only 5/6 teams in the EPL would trouble us if Raf or Evra had a booking or were injured for that game. the reason is over the past 3 seasons we've had a dfence crises with Evra, Carrick & even Berbatov playing CB.

TJ

Believable1 Unbelievable0

Tunners needs a loan to a Prem club, possibly Wigan. I hope we keep Cole and Lingard this season so we can give them a few games and then we can loan them to a prem club the next year. Also Brady needs a loan to a Prem club as he was a stand out player for Hull at times last year. Gilly

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Personally I would keep Tunnicliffe, Petrucci, Cole, Lingard and Wooton for the first six months as cover and also to play in Cup games. Then in January when the competitions get tough for us, loan them out for experience. Six months on loan would do them the power of good.

RedDevil19

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Wigan will be no good with McArthur and McCarthy ahead of him.

Sydney!

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27 Jul 2012 12:19:36
Talks still going on with Lucas. I wouldn't pay more then 20 million personally and thats still abit too much. He's basically a young Brazilian version of Nani. I know he's 19 and playing for Brazil. But Kleberson also played for Brazil, just sayin' that he might not be worth the price tag. And I doubt many of us have seen him play in more then a handful of football matches, cause it aint easy being able to watch the Brazilian league. And youtube makes anyone look half decent.

Believable3 Unbelievable1

27 Jul 2012 11:58:55
Spanish sports daily As believes Nuri Sahin is set to join a "big team" in the Barclays Premier League on loan for the season. The move is apparently set to go through next week after an agreement was reached with Real Madrid for the midfielder. United, Arsenal and Tottenham have all been linked with the former Borussia Dortmund star

Would be a great loan signing with view to perm deal at the end of the year

Oxred

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If true I would expect it to be Spurs as a sweetener for the Modric deal.

Shappy

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Are we totally sure that this is not part of a package for Modric?

Stuey

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I did mention a loan for Sahin some weeks ago, would be nice if it was us, but surely Spurs are the club they are talking about? I did think RM may offer us him on loan if we backed out of the Mods deal.

Sydney!

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I hear it's Arsenal...

T0MB0Z

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T0MB0Z, I hear they want him to replace Wilshere next season. Is Wilshere ever going to heal?

Sydney!

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27 Jul 2012 11:37:38
Eds, is there any interest in victor wanyama? I know that one of the eds rate him extremely highly.

Ozzy {Ed002's Note - You need Ed007 for that - ask when he is around.}

Believable0 Unbelievable0

27 Jul 2012 10:52:42
I listened to the powell and kagawa interview and fergie said that he had a deal arranged for powell before the play offs and that they didnt announce it till after the playoffs so it didnt distract the player. I just wonder if a similar deal has been done for Moura. Lets hope so

Believable1 Unbelievable2

Or Martinez & Munian

PLEASE

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27 Jul 2012 10:30:48
"Right now I'm focused on my team, Sao Paulo, and the Brazilian team, I will decide my future when the Olympics end." Moura


RamoN 19

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27 Jul 2012 09:53:06
Pogba due in italy tonight for medical/contract ! Modric not coming, Moura not coming ! Happy with Powell and Kagawa but starting to worry that we will buy 3rd 4th choice if anyone !

Believable1 Unbelievable3

Come on mate. There are what could be decribed as 5th and 6th choices that can still be a stark improvement on our CM.

LB is more tricky as there is an overall shortage of top drawer players in this position so a move for Baines or Izzy would be more than enough to fill the gap between moving Evra on and giving Blackett time. We would see Fabio return in a year also to rotate next season.

Jono

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Anyone know if there is any chance of Contrao for left back? Thought he looked excellent in euros.

DodgyBanter

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27 Jul 2012 09:35:56
I keep reading that even with out the glazers and there debt united would not be able to compete in the transfer market with the so called sugar daddy clubs.

Now this may or may not be true but just food for thought since the glazers took over we have spent more money on interest payments and refinancing the debt than either city or chelsea have spent in the transfer market .

jred

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Although agree with most of what you have said, City and Chelsea have spent far more than we have paid out in interest payments and refinancing the debt. Chelsea have made losses to the tune of 1Bn and City are not too far behind.

Sydney! {Ed002's Note - Chelsea have not made £1B losses Syd.}

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Thats nuts.... So much money taken out for the glazers personnel gain, football and sports in general should'nt allow these leaches anywhere near us. It can only end in tears.....
HERBIE

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HERBIE, the sad thing is that the EPL couldn't stop another leveraged buyout tomorrow if it happened.

Sydney!

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Ed002, okay I will put it a different way, Roman has pumped in over £1bn into Chelsea FC.

Sydney! {Ed002's Note - Which is very different to Chelsea having lost that money when it includes the purchase of the club, the improved training facilities, infrastructure changes, changes to Stamford Bridge. It would probably help both of us is you prised all of the number keys from you keyboard and sent them to me for safe keeping.}

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Edzerozerotwo, very true and I did take all of that into consideration. Nevertheless losses are still around half a billion give or take a hundred million ;)

Have you heard anything regarding this Sahin loan or is this just nonsense in your opinion? Thanks.

Sydney! {Ed002's Note - It is not losses as such Syd. It is investment. I understand that the loan is an option whilst the player returns to full fitness and gets some experience. I suspect it is in the hands of the player and previous statements stand.}

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Ed002, poor wording on my behalf.

So would you rule out a loan move to OT or would you say it's highly unlikely? Thanks.

Sydney! {Ed002's Note - I think it unlikely. Sahin has had injury problems this year but rumours do persist about his long term future. If he were to leave I would very much suspect a move to Italy (possibly with AC Milan) or a return to Germany (with Bayern Munich) would come before any thoughts of a move to England - although there could well be interest from Spurs, Arsenal and Manchester United. Malaga also spoke to Madrid about the possibility of a loan and Galatasaray would like to take him to Turkey.}

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Like I said we have spent more on the debt than city or Chelsea have spent in the transfer market
Jred

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I beg to differ Jred.

Chelsea amount purchased £807,914,000
City amount purchased £649,180,000

I don't believe this is including agent fees etc either.

Sydney!

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27 Jul 2012 08:46:54
Juve have cooled their interest in RVP

Believable1 Unbelievable0

27 Jul 2012 06:09:02
I think this whole Moura fiasco has been the worst possible thing for United. OK...it will be great if we do get him, but that's looking unlikely. Now, any other player we have interest in during the window will have their price increased with their agents/club basically saying ''well you had 26 million to spend on Moura, you can give us x amount for our player''. I always try to be optimistic on this site but I fear our business is done this summer!

Andy

Believable2 Unbelievable1

Our business is far from being done my friend. At least two more signings IMO.

Sydney!

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Andy finally someone has let the penny drop this has been ths case for years and years every selling club wants to screw United and quote us unreallistic fees we will sign players and i genuinly think we will win the race for RVP
ARB

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That could be what's already happening or have you forgotten the hazard fiasco? How'd you know SP arnt thinking you had 32 mill for hazard :p

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I hope your right Sydney as Im starting to wonder. Although we have made one very shrewd signing and another possibly great long term signing it ISNT the transfer window we NEED. Something I think you have said yourself. I am starting to wonder though personally. We obviously are making efforts but I dont think we will go for 3rd 4th choice signings personalyl
Invisible STuey

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Yeah sydney your buisness is far from done , two must be sold before two can be bought .

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Stuey, we definitely need some signings this summer agreed.

Sydney!

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"Yeah sydney your buisness is far from done , two must be sold before two can be bought ."

Not literally sell before we can buy, but we will have to offload players this summer to balance the books. I think we will sign two more players, three more if Nani is sold.

Sydney!

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Are you happy to see nani sold

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26 Jul 2012 19:26:01
juventus are now giving up on RVP as they have set their sights on Man City's Dzeko meanwhile RVP has also told his agent that he doesnt want to join City but wants a club with history and so guys and ED which club is this??Is it definately US?I believe Juventus might have been told to look elsewhere by RVP's agent and now we remain the main and only contender unless a dark contender called Chelsea decide to do us the Hazard style.....,last minute..

Believable1 Unbelievable0

What it boils down to is he wants nearly £200k a week. City have agreed to pay him this already, we are unlikely to meet that amount so City are strong favourites. I think our manager will stay in there as long as possible to drive the price up for City.

Sydney!

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No value in the market at that type of money 200 a week is too much

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Yes 200k per week is far to much but unfortunately top players can demand that now in the knowledge that a "city/madrid" will pay it....
HERBIE

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27 Jul 2012 01:12:49
Looking like lucas moura or no one at all at the moment, wouldn't be surprised to see fergie stick with what he's got for now then renew interest in lucas moura next season if he continues improving.

Believable2 Unbelievable2

What about a possible transfer in January?

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27 Jul 2012 00:08:16
Until SAF says the Lucas deal is off I'll believe it and it was that said it was off they are really reliable aren't they!

Caolán.

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27 Jul 2012 00:00:46
Mick,

I do think the ipo would be a good thing, I couldn't really see the negatives in relation to where we are without it. The only positive from it not going ahead I suppose is that the glazers could sell up.

Simmo,

I was maybe a little harsh, I agree with most of your points to be honest, some of the football last season was poor. Kagawa will make a lot of difference, can't wait to see him and Rooney. Hoping petruxci, Powell and lingaard can play a few games and maybe fill the hole in midfield, I like when we bring youngsters through and they come good. Do think we need two more signings though and I think fergie agrees tbf.

GDS

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26 Jul 2012 23:58:37
Buy buy Cabaye from Newcastle - what a footballer he is....

Believable6 Unbelievable2

Jono,

Get over it! And leave a name ;)

GDS

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No that was not me ;-)

Although I agree haha.

Jono

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Hi Jono

G.A.G.U.S

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26 Jul 2012 23:36:48
Just watching Nick Powell on MUTV and thinking he could be our new goal scoring midfielder. Then there's Petrucci and Kagawa and cleverly and Anderson and Carrick and scholes and Giggs and I think Jones will play there.....

Then I think will Rooney drop back like scholesy did and I think sod it bow the budget on another striker and see what happens.....

Love united - attack, attack, attack, attack, attack!

Pedro

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Pedro

It wans't often last season we saw 'attack, attack, attack' from the lads.

RED_SKY

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26 Jul 2012 22:49:10
"The latest figures we've got is that they've spent £71m on the debt in the first nine months of the financial year," Andy Green said. "And obviously supporters were hoping that the IPO would lead to an end to a lot of those costs and more money being available to the manager.

"But in the short term, the real question is: if they do have to pull this IPO, what does it say about investors' perceptions of Manchester United? The Glazers have had talks with various parties in the past and never been able to agree on a price and this would be a real slap in the face for them if they take it to the biggest stock market in the world and they can't get it away."
andy greens take on the failed IPO

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