Manchester United Banter Archive February 28 2014

28 Feb 2014 23:25:47
Evening Man Utd fans,

LFC fan here and I'm not here to wind anyone up. Just wondering if you could take any three LFC players for your team which would you choose?

If I could take three of yours it would be De Gea, Rooney and Jones. I reckon in time Jones will be a top centre half but I hope I'm wrong.

Wouldn't say no to Januzaj either.

28 Feb 2014 23:59:02
Good interesting post that could spark debate
For me the first I'd take is Coutinho, always been a big fan even when he was at inter and was a cracking find for you lot to get him as cheap as you did and he will go on to be a really good player
As good as he's been for you lot I still think that Sturridge is a bit too hot and cold for my liking and wouldn't do as well for us as he has done for you lot
Suarez as much as I despise the man and the options we have up top we simply can't say no he's just simply out of this world and as good as Ronaldo IMO
Sakho also looks like a decent defender and the big unit leader that is seriously lacking in our defense so i'd take him for sure

Squarez, Gerrard, Agger?

Right now I'd go for;

1) Suarez
2) Henderson
3) Gerrard or Leiva

Suarez for obvious reasons, Henderson has also been superb, the adventurous Tom Cleverley. gerrard has been great in the 'Scholes' role this season and I think Leiva is an all round top defensive midfielder.

I would have gone for Sturridge but I believe he's just in form. Reminds me a lot of Defoe. - Also we have Rooney, RVP and in this scenario Suarez.

Jf you are dreaming if you think he is anywhere near as good as Ronaldo ronaldo is on another planet

In terms of sheer current quality, I'd take Suarez, Gerrard and Coutinho.

But htere are other things we need to consider.

My first choice would be Sterling, no doubt about that.

I'd also take Henderson and that's probably it.

Suarez and Sturridge aside, you don't have any outstanding players. Gerrard is on his last legs, Countinho is talented but inconsistent and Mata and Kagawa are superior players. Sturridge ghas been in great form, but he is nowhere near the quality of Rooney and Van Persie ( at least not yet ) .

Henderson and Sterling would improve us. Atm, Henderson is on better form to anyone we have in midfield and only Fellaini is a better player ( during his Everton days ).

Suarez, Coutinho and Henderson and send you Cleverly, Welbeck and young which is a fair trade given the fact that you get 3 england internationals:)

28 Feb 2014 20:26:21
just seen in certain papers that a petition to stop tom cleverly from being in the world cup squad and they have between 3000 to 4000 thousand signitures the lad is not one of the best midfielders in the world but he dose not deserve that if it is true

It's an absolute disgrace, I don't think he has done anything to deserve a call up this season but that is besides the point. Something like this could destroy the young lads career. As you all know I'm a Liverpool fan so I have no allegiance to him, but he has been involved with a few England squads and obviously DM and SAF saw something in him in training etc too.
I've been looking at Utd closely recently and there's not too many players have been playing any better than him tbh.
What I will say is unlike a lot of them, he goes out and gives 100% every time he pulls on the shirt. If the rest of them did the same Utd wouldn't be in the position they are in now. Maybe just maybe that's why he gets picked so often for club and country.

That will affect his already brittle confidence no doubt . Who gives a toss about England anyway. I don't.

Simon,

Cleverley has 0 assists and 1 goal all season. He's a poor tackler, and he rarely passes forward. Many of United's side are having poor seasons but to my mind, for whatever reason, Cleverley is maybe having the worst of all. He does not deserve to go to Brazil, let alone pull on a Manchester United shirt at the moment. He is one of those players who can play a decent part when he has great players around him, but he simply doesn't have the speed, skills, vision or creativity to be the spark. Would you swap him for Jordan Henderson or Coutinho?

That being said, whether he's called up is entirely a matter for the England manager, and for the fans to start a petition against him is despicable. The poor guy only makes 6.25m Euros a year, so it's not like he's being paid much!

Peashooter,
if I'm honest, there's not 1 Utd player at the moment would get into the Liverpool squad but that wasn't the point. Two Utd managers, England's manager and a former Utd great who's part of his coaching staff, Gary Neville, obviously see something every time he trains to put him in the side/squad.
What I said was if the rest of the team put in the effort he did in every game then you would be in a better position.
Is it his fault that the rest of the so called better players that should be doing the creating, showing the skill, the vision or speed are not performing to their potential.
He gave an interview lately that explained what DM expects of him and if he keeps getting picked he's obviously doing what's asked of him.
Whether you or I agree with that is irrelevant. DM picks the team so blame him.
The lad doesn't deserve to be crucified because he's being picked to play for Utd or England. Surely that is more deserved of the people who pick him if he's so bad, wouldn't you say!

Liverpool fan here.

Saw that petition and think it's a disgrace. Doesn't matter who he plays for, what he's paid or how good or bad he is.

I'm almost hoping he goes out in your next game and scores a hat-trick. Almost!

28 Feb 2014 23:27:43
I imagine there's little doubt that the vast majority of those voters are actually Manchester United fans.

I don't agree with it by any stretch and its only the fact England are so poor that they're scratching around giving call ups to the like of him, Welbeck, Lampard, Carrick, Smalling and Cole.

Janman I agree when he was on loan at wigan he played realy well for them and was thought of highly he played a little higher up but since is injury and being back with us he has gone backwards I think if somebody put there arm around him and helped him he could become a good player not the best but a very good squad player

Peashooter

Where did you get Cleverly's wages from as it looks too high and hope to god you are wrong. No one on earth would pay him that and we must have gone stupid.

I have had a debate with Sydney who reckons he is only on 35k a week where I believe he is on 60k or 65k a week.

Marcellus

For once I agree with you, with the exception of Carrick and Cole the rest are going to get found out.

I don't think it will make a difference for England, which might not make it out of the group stages.

Shahram, it's not a debate, he is on between £35k-£40k a week.

28 Feb 2014 18:56:38
Anyone any ideas on when Nani is due back? I know it seems he is destined to leave OT but I think we could really use a player with some individual brilliance and although he may be inconsistent he can put a better ball in than Young and can create space which is what we need at the moment.

Put a better ball in than Young? that's debatable but there isn't enough time left in the whole future of the universe to complete a crossing competition between the two so I'll guess we'll never know.

28 Feb 2014 17:14:34
Aw come on Ed, I posted a well thought through out this morning and couldn't find it. It's on the other posts page with all the ranting. I rarely rant and try and be constructive, I know you have to make judgements but I'm not sure how that particular post was deemed unworthy of the banter page. Give me a clue

{Ed002's Note - I would have let it go.}

So which Ed do I need to sweet talk?

{Ed002's Note - It is not going to change now.}

28 Feb 2014 15:40:27
Alen Halilović has agreed to Barcelona next season.

28 Feb 2014 13:55:12
Well it’s been a tough week and a lot of anger and frustration vented on the site.

I’ve posted before to make the point that, imo, our problems are certainly not all of Moyes’ making. Despite that though, whilst he remains in the job he’s the only guy that can fix things, so here’s my ten point plan to guide us through the rest of this awful season:

1. Re-hire Rene Meulensteen to settle the players, remind them that they are winners and remove the speculation that Moyes' tactics are one dimensional.
2. Banish SAF from all games and media appearances for the rest of the year. He’s a powerful personality and a board member – does he really need to be in Moyes’ face most games? I can’t believe it helps the players’ mental attitudes to see him turning up so regularly.
3. Recall our best-performing youngsters from loan (eg Powell) so we inject some drive and urgency into our play.
4. Drop Ferdinand and Vidic from the first team squad immediately – legs have gone and their minds are on their summer holidays anyway.
5. Retire Giggs (at least a year too late).
6. Drop 442 and dispense with orthodox wingers in most games.
7. Play Valencia as a right back to accommodate a more modern forward line.
8. Play Mata and Kagawa in their best positions and see which gels the best.
9. Announce an incentive scheme that promises to reduce the cost of next year’s season ticket by £20 for every game won between now and the end of the season (makes sure all the players are motivated).
10. Re-build the relationship with the Manchester Evening News so that the local newspaper gets behind the team and stops sniping at the players and the manager.

Anyone disagree?

I can't see any of the above happening and definitely the ticket reduction of £20 a win. One the club would never do it and do you tink the players give a damn what we have to pay?

Valencia shouldn't go anywhere near rb he makes too many mistakes when he's played there

Carloto
My thinking on the ticket discount is that the players would get more stick from the fans if they saw £20 going down the drain every game - it's a carrot, not a stick really.

Apart from that though, sadly I agree with you - not much chance of any of it actually happening.

I would rather gary neville came out of retirement than play valencia at right back, i'm sure I've seen his eyes closed and mouth making snoring motions during games this year.

Rafael is a better right back than Valencia and hopefully back soon. Smalling is not a right back especially when asked to go forward.

28 Feb 2014 11:52:08
I read a really good article that was comparing SAF tactics with Moyes' tactics. The difference in style was quite telling. Under SAF, our variations in play utilised the strengths of our players'; while under Moyes, the lack of tactical consistency and general lack of understanding of what Moyes' is trying to implement on the part of the players', is basically ruining us as an effective unit. Even with the frailties we have had in the CM area over the past few seasons, SAF tactical style would get the best out of the vast majority of the players'. Case-in-point: RVP last season. Because we always had three points of attack, the width of the pitch always covered, giving multiple options. Under Moyes' the players' have shown very little fluidity. There is one point of attack: Down the wings; and the players' don't seem to know what they are meant to be doing, hence they get in each other's way.

The game against Olympiakos the other day; it looked like the United team had been thrown together over-night, such was the disjointedness - and general lack of cohesion in our play. In fact, I have seen Sunday league sides play a better, more cohesive brand of football.

Undoubtedly, the team needs several players'; but wholesale changes are not needed. We already have some extremely talented footballers', who could adapt to any modern playing system. What we need is the right man to implement the right tactics. And unless Moyes' can adapt his tactics, it won't matter how much money he spends; the net result will be the same: failure!

Without wishing to offend steviek or aaajl, I agree with you samthered.
Our team might lack in few areas but we have bought two midfielders and introduced adnan, and we're still looking disjointed.
My worry also, is the way the players seem to be going thru the motions, no urgency, no anger, no spirit. This has to be sorted and the only person who can sort it is the manager.

Do you want him to sort out why professional players can't pass accurately over 5 yards, or control the ball simply with their first touch?

Remember, these are largely the same players you spent all last season gurning about. Was it theirs or Fergies fault then?

28 Feb 2014 15:36:41
whilst I agree steviek about the quality of passing etc we have to be honest and say last years manager instilled belief and passion into our play(considering many believe the players are not good enough we still won the league) and this managers style of play is still up for debate and his body language is that of a beaten man. if the players are unable to pass etc then it says all confidence and belief has gone and Moyes seemingly cannot turn it round. all those saying he needs time to bring his own style of play and players in after following sir alex then how has Martinez managed to follow a 10yr serving manager and completely transform their style of play with the same personnel. granted Everton results wise are similar to last yr but they have not dipped whereas ours have dropped alarmingly. people overplay the transition and poor players, we have a bigger and better squad than spurs and everton but are playing like a bottom half team right now. if its not Moyes responsibility then we may as well not have a manager

But ajs, Fergie didn't just arrive last season. He'd spent 26 years instilling that belief and passion into the club, and I can't believe that people thought that we would just glide serenely on once the father figure and driving force behind the club left.

Any new manager, of those available would have struggled to varying degrees, and none of us know for sure if we'd be any better or any worse off under a different pick. It's just guessing and opinion to state otherwise.

We are where we are. We need to deal with it, get over it, and accept the reality of the situation. He's not going anywhere any time soon, and Jose, Klopp and most likely, Pep, were not available. In those circumstances, why shouldn't a well-respected, British manager, with good Premiership experience have been given a go? We're always moaning about British managers not being given a chance, but really we're saying, give them a chance, but just not at our club. We want someone with a tan.

Sites like this allow everyone to vent their frustrations, and fair, objective criticism is warranted after some of our performances this season, but I think the reactions of guys and girls who actually go to the games week in week out, is a fairer barometer of how fans feel - despite, according to one poster, the dramatic threat of physical violence hanging over those at the ground who don't support the manager.

What Ferguson did will never be replicated, he took average players i.e carrick, evans, welbeck, valencia, placed them in a team with world beating talent and made a united team. All of sudden this manager is gone and these players have been exposed as the players they are. Moyes is working with players that ultimately know there days are numbered, some of them have never played under another manager at club level or have had the same man in the dressing room for many years.

Personally I believe this blip has been down to sentimentality and holding onto players that should have been sold a few years back i.e Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Carrick.

Moyes can only work with what he as got, his style has to accommodate weak full backs, no centre midfield, which has been the case for many years, and very average wingers. Ferguson knew that this team was not going to sustain itself after he went, and if reports are correct he virtually tried to force players upon Moyes and what should they be? A centre back and two centre midfielders.

Moyes has not just become a bad manager over night, the reason Martinez is being successful is because the foundation was set for him, whereas this is not the case for Moyes. Players are aware of there stane within the club and managers plans and you can tell that they know their days are numbered.

Moyes has persuaded Chelsea's best player over the last 2 years to give up champions league football and contribute to his vision. I don't know about anyone on this sites experience as a professional footballer, but I think Mata has more awareness and knowledge of the game than me.

aaallj5

Aaallij5
Very sensible post imo

Aaallj5,

No doubt SAF could motivate a player; make him better then his talent would allow under normal circumstances; but he was also very good tactically; better than a lot of people give him credit for.

Round we go again, you keep posting this stuff
StevieK
"We are where we are. We need to deal with it, get over it, and accept the reality of the situation"
Accept he is manager, yes, we have no choice, but accept he is the right manager for Manchester United, No, and that is different. Most won't "get over it" as you put it. We won't just roll over and accept the ordinary.

"why shouldn't a well-respected, British manager, with good Premiership experience have been given a go?"
Because he isn't good enough and doesn't have the experience or gravitas to do the job.

"We want someone with a tan"
Poor, we want someone with the requisite experience who has demonstrated they have the experience, someone who has won something.

"I think the reactions of guys and girls who actually go to the games week in week out, is a fairer barometer of how fans feel"
I can tell you the match going fans I know want rid of him, badly and it is getting to the point where it will come out.

As to aaa's post yes sentiment, but the sentiment was allowing SAF to make the decision on his successor, then the use of sentiment to support him and then the continuing sentiment that we must support him because it's our way.

28 Feb 2014 19:44:30
steviek. agreed fergie had been there 26 yrs and a I accept a new manager would not come in and have the same degree of success frpm day one but at least instill a style of play befitting our club and to go from champions to potentially finishing 7th 8th or 9th cannot be acceptable. are we saying a captain of a large industry in the job for 20 years and retires but hissuccessor comes in and within 8 months mks the company a laughing stock and they lose millions that the business would not take swift and decisive action?

aaalij. u said utd won the league because of the manager and the players are poor and within 8 months we perform shockingly and surprise surprise the manager is impervious to any blame and its the players alone at fault. amd you seem to have identified all the players who shpuld have gone years ago then why the heck did moyes not see that when he took over and even more bizarrely continue playing them?
you mention foundations at utd and everton. moyes inherited the champions and had funds to buy if he wanted
everton have distin osman howard pienaar barry all over 30 and playing week in week out and he left them with no strikers wprth speaking about so what are these foundations you refer too. accept Martinez has had just as difficult a task but performed much better, oh and he lost there supposed best player on the last day of transfer window and still performing better than Moyes. oh and we apparantly bought that player who was part of this supposed foundation

Aaallj

I agree there is an element of the problem that SAF should have prepared and dealt with some of the problem areas, and maybe that was because he couldn't face making some difficult decisions towards the end but I don't believe that is the sole reason for the level of decline we have seen.

Red Man, I'll keep posting my guff, as long as you keep posting yours. Is that a fair deal?

And you don't have to roll over and accept it. You could stop moaning over and over again on here, and get out and organise some protests with these friends of yours.

Stevie k
I am a match going fan and have been for about forty years and I am well peed off as are lot of my mates who are match going fans.

Pancho, who isn't peed off? But until I hear mass booing at OT, then I'll assume fans there may be unhappy, but they're not yet ready for a mass show of disapproval against the manager.

Stevie k
As I have said in previous posts I wouldn't boo anybody anyway no matter how bad. However as I have said the tide is turning for a lot of fans and if we lose against the scousers and that lot from over the road you may start to see a lot of match going fans showing their dissatisfaction . There are a lot fans who have supported him who are starting to talk about getting rid. And as I have said before we should be able to criticise amongst reds and I will back the managers up if arguing with a city fan if a scouser etc but I think it's becoming more and more difficult to defend what's going on.

28 Feb 2014 09:09:46
That video of Kagawa down below saddens me, it just shows how far off his wave length all of our players are. The one time he got the ball, turned and slid a ball through we nearly scored, it was our only opportunity. The best bit has to be when Young beats his man for a change and doesn't even look into the box, he only looks at the ball and whips in a ball with no direction. Even Rooney isn't on his wave length, I'd say Mata and Januzaj are and also RVP who is always looking for the ball. Instead we had long balls out to the flanks and nothing through the middle again, absolutely sick of this style of play, if Moyes is instigating it then it's just complete tactical ineptitude.

Fresh

If you look at how Kagawa played, his best moments in the game were when he combined with Rooney. That has infact been the case ever since he has been a United player.

Deeps.

For me, if RVP goes then we need to play Rooney up top with Kagawa, Mata and Januzaj behind him. I'm starting to think RVP will go to be honest.

I think if Van Persie goes then we need a real top class center forward. Someone tall, strong and prolific. I can see why we are being linked to Cavani as he would be perfect. Costa also looks a player that can do a job. Shame Lewandowski chose BM. He would have been a good replacement for Van Persie if Van Persie left.

28 Feb 2014 02:29:08
Just watching a report on ABC news about the dangers of heading the ball repeatedly, under the headline - Safety Questions About Soccer.

They claim the ball can travel at 50mph (?!?) on to young heads (whilst showing images of 6 and 7 year olds playing a game, and the ball barely travelling further than five feet at a time, and certainly not above knee high!), and used one example of a young lad dying from a brain injury to prove their theory.

I thought kids playing American Football would be at greater risk of injury, with all that deliberate barging into each other head first, but they say it's safe because, 'they wear helmets'! Leather on head, or hard plastic on head?

Can you imagine a report coming out over there claiming American Football was dangerous? It seems there really is an anti-football agenda in mainstream US media - any of our Yankee posters able to elaborate on how much, if any, football is making inroads in the US?

Knowing how safety conscious American 'soccer moms' can be, you'd have to wonder if football will ever really take off on the other side of the pond, if they're watching scaremongering reports like this.

ps. It might explain my boy's last exam results, tho.

The dangers of American football are all over the news here. The NFL has been dealing with concussion/brain-related issues with its former players for the last few years. it's in the forefront of society.

"Soccer" is much more popular here in the States than it was even 10 years ago. It gets coverage on Sportscenter and it's entered the general sports ecosystem here, which is already quite saturated. Even if people don't like it, many of them at least know about it and are familiar with the teams now.

On a side note, I haven't posted in a long while, but have been lurking in that time. Love the site and all the regulars. Cheers, everyone.

This has nothing to do with anti-football anything over here. It has everything to do with the media using the fear to get parents to watch. But news coverage of American football head issues is 99.9% of the coverage over here, and rightly so with the reports we've seen, but a soccer player did just die from the same CTE that we've seen in American football players so it's bound to get some attention.

As for participation, far more American kids play soccer than any other sport and there's zero sign that the issues being raised regarding concussions in children have affected soccer one bit.

As for media coverage in European football it's at an all time high and expanding rapidly. This is partly due to the incredible amount of football that is available now (every match I could want I get live). There are now multiple football networks and every sports channel has a football show and match rights of some kind. I get more coverage and matches than my friend who lives in Liverpool! That being said we still have countless other sports that get much of our attention, whereas rugby and cricket seem more like things the papers talk about only when nothing is happening in football. Check out the dozens of 80000+ capacity stadiums just for American college football. Between American football and basketball you're more likely to lose elite athletes than you are to rugby or cricket. And you're certainly more likely to lose airtime and column inches as well. Nevermind that Wayne rooneys mind blowing contract is about what a good but not great baseball, basketball or even American football player makes.

Cheers for the replies, lads. Sometimes over here, it looks like the US media just isn't buying into the whole football thing.

Didn't know if it was because it was just an alien concept, or if maybe they're worried about it's growth, and saw it as a threat to the national sports.

I really hope it does get ingrained in the national consciousness over there.

Even if some of the terms used to describe it, sometimes grate a little :)

27 Feb 2014 23:50:08

Opinions on Kagawa

Watching that you got to feel for the guy.

I fail to understand moyes' tactics even more after seeing that. its obvious that kagawa should be starting or at least should have been brought on straight away at half time. why does he stick to this routine of substitutions only after 60mins are up is beyond me.
he had similar but inferior players like kagawa at everton like pienaar and he utilised them quite well I cannot understand why can he not devise a system to play kagawa. I have read reports that the midfielders carrick and cleverly have been instructed to stay behind the ball and not bomb forward, those instructions would suit playing a 4-2(holding)-3(interchanging fluid)-1 instead of a 4-2(holding)-2(wide)-1(free role)-1. its almost expecting rooney to do everything in the free role create, track back and score, its expecting too much of one player no matter how good or bad he is.

The best one is when Smalling leathers it into row Z instead of slipping it inside to kagawa who is unmarked in the penalty box. Kagawa's body language says it all.

I thought we improved greatly when Kagawa came on. he didn't stop moving, got into great positions for receiving a pass and generally made play whenever he could. It wasn't spectacular but in contrast to the insipid crap the rest of them served up it was light years ahead.

Great video. I really feel for the guy. I have to say that in almost every game I have seen him involved this season, especially when played centrally, united have looked so much more dangerous.

It's clear to see how talented the lad is, I have not been one to slate moyes because I do believe any manager in the world would have struggled this year.
However, I cannot abide one Ashley young and this video sums up the whole reason why, kagawa is much better technically, he's a much more clever player, yet young is preferred to him and even januzaj when we have a big or even olympiakos (average) sized game, it baffles me.
On a side note it's going to be so painful watching kagawa next year as it's clear to see how good he can be!

To me the best illustration of our style and tactics was the one time Rooney and Kagawa did have a neat interchange of passes resulting in Kagawa playing in Evra for clear shot at goal. Instead, he drove for the byline and tried to play in a low cross.