Manchester United Banter Archive October 30 2014

 

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30 Oct 2014 17:48:30
Gagus
Have a look at the falling outs at ajax and barcelona as well.

jred
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For fallouts, perhaps we should look no further than our very own legendary manager who recently retired.

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Gagus
Not even on the same level pal .

But this is getting a bit boring .
So i will go back to my op.
I don't think munich would ever re employ lvg.
Due to the fact he had major issues with every member of the board and several of the playing staff. On top of this munich finished 4 .
Its well documented that lvg has 1 or 2 issues which played a major role in him getting sacked by munich after 2 year barcelona after 6 month and ajax after 6 month.
He makes fergy look quite chilled out.

Thats a part of his character read his book he is quite open about .
Not sure why you have such a problem with it,

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Don't have a problem with it at all, he's a fiery character, everyone knows that. Certaonly causes more problems than it solves.

But it's just our own Sir Alex fell out with the owners and we ended up with the Glazers. He fell out with players like RVN, Rooney, Stam, Keane, Beckham etc. and also has had numerous touchline bans for his rants at refs.

I don't see how winning the league title at every club you have been can be seen as average. He's clearly top class when he applies his mind to the development of the playing squad.

Also, he's won 7 league titles in 20 years, not 4. Why you have excluded the Eredivisie titles he won is beyond me. And if you want to look at it properly, he's won 16 trophies in 20 years.

That for me, is top class, considering that 6 of those 20 years were taken up with 2 spells as Dutch manager, 1 year as Technical Director at Ajax and 1 year out of the game after Bayern.

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Gagus
Lol i don't think you know a thing about lvg other than what you have read in the paper.

Look at your op trying to argue that he didn't have issues at munich based on a comment from lahm

The problem is when you continue to cut and paste bits from my from my post you lose the overall point.
I actually think you are arguing from 3 different threads.

1- i don't think munich or bayern would have him back- as i explained he fell out with the whole board at munich . Even held a press conference with the directors where he gave them his book and said you should read this you might learn something.
Imo sammer, hoesness and co who continue to have a go at him to this day in the press would not re employ him.

I also don't see him going to barcelona infact i don't think he would even work in spain again.

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At ajax the first time he done a great job as i have said SEVERAL times but in the 20 years since he left he has won 4 league titles and no cl league .
2 of them titles at barcelona 15 years ago .
As i have said i don't think he has reproduced the form or success he had at ajax.
de boer has won 4 titles in the last 4 year, conte 3 in the last 4 jose 7 in the last 10.
ancelloti has 3 champions league titles in the last 12 years year .
in the last 12 year lvg has been sacked by barcelona after 6 months when they where 3 points of relegation.
sacked by ajax after 6 month.
moved on from the dutch squad after they failed to qualify for the world cup.
sacked from munich after less than 2 year with them in 4 place

Like i have said many many times he is a decent manager who tends to fall out with players and staff, has maybe built his reputation over 20 years ago at the wonderful ajax but has not reached the same heights since.
infact his 2 big jobs at barcelona and munich didn't end well.
i don't follow the he is 100% going to bring titles based on his past.cv.

I look forward to seeing which part of this post you cut and paste.

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Where do you get your information from? Van gaal has won 6 titles in the last 20 years and four of those years he was managing the Netherlands. I don't disagree with the fact that he's an abrasive personality but why do you keep arguing with false figures. You can't keep telling others that they know nothing about van gaal when you can't even get his honours right

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Jred - These are my exact concerns, coupled with the fact that he has said we will do one thing and then we end up doing another consistently. When he does this people blame it on the language barrier, yet when they agree with what he says 'LVG makes perfect sense', it cuts both ways surely. Maybe he falls out with the people that eventually dare to call him out on his BS (normally top players with confidence), which is why he leaves problems everywhere he goes?

There was an interesting thread the other day about his use of the word "Philosophy" and the general consensus was he didn't understand the meaning properly because of the language barrier, so he gets the benefit of the doubt again - just an idea but maybe one of the hundreds of people he works with or numerous journalists could have the balls to point this out to him so he doesn't continue to annoy people with his misuse and repetitiveness, but no, they are all scared of the big bad Dutch Man.

Characters like LVG blame everyone but themselves and won't tolerate any form of criticism, but as soon as someone pipes up and shows him to be wrong, all these secret critics will jump on the band wagon. Most people love to pull an arrogant SOB down a peg or two, especially if he is the Man Utd manager.

This is why I think it will be a disaster, his approach is old school, his whole way of being is counter productive for this generation. His confidence and aura (arrogance) could have been a massive benefit, but there is zero humility, which is vital if you are to be successful even short term at a big club in the modern age. There are a lot of egos around Old Trafford, having to keep swallowing it will mean they either leave or we end up with robots.

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Snakey
He has won 4 titles since he left ajax which was my point but you are quite right that was 17 years ago not 20 .
I think the point remains the same

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{Ed007's Note - Isn't that an album by Led Zeppelin? (rock)

And a film

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{Ed007's Note - (yes)

I'm not ar5ed with this anymore. No he hasn't had a good start, of course he hasn't, nobody has denied that. But surely you can see why people are more patient with him than Moyes?

And yes he failed at Barcelona, and the first time around with Netherlands. Again nobody is denying that either. He did not fail at Bayern, he was a success because he brought them back to the top end of Europe and won the double in his first season. He has more success than failure and he mostly leaves a club in better shape, with a better base than when he took over.

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Fair enough jred. So that's 4 titles in 13 years of club football, 4 years of which was at AZ alkmar. He also won cups, German manager of the year whilst at bayern amongst other plaudits. He's not everyone's cup of tea of course but he's not got a bad record so to argue he's average is a bit myopic. I personally think he's been poor so far, he seems like he's been too arrogant but the team is starting to gel and I guess we all hope he can turn things around and be successful here.

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30 Oct 2014 15:22:44
Yeah City have lost to West Ham and Newcastle but form goes out the window when it comes to United vs City.

i'm going for a 2-2 draw

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I think a draw would be a great result

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I posted a few weeks ago that i thought we would draw with chelsea and lose to City. Still believe we will get nothing from that game.

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Gcu
I think we need a win to be honest .
But we have a tough set of games coming up and a draw away to city may keep the confidence up

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Jred

Off course a win would be unbelievable. If the reports of toure and silva being injured are true then i think a draw might be on the cards.

I think we will win the next few after this and draw at Emirates as well. Drawing away to the top teams is a good result.

I think at home we should expect to beat everyone.

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30 Oct 2014 17:59:37
Haha if we win against City everyone that says LVG hasn't improved us will label LVG a success. Not saying we will win but if so that will be the outcome.

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Ozwald
Do you really think so .
Surly that was tongue in cheek

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@GCU

Arsenal is the one fixture on the list that I always look forward to as a 3 points in the bag. You really have to be quite poor on the day to not win against them, especially with the pace of Di maria.

At the height of the Moyes crisis last year we still managed a draw at the Emirates and didn't let them have a sniff at Old Trafford. That fixture is a should win one. Have our standards really dropped that low now? I can understand if someone disagrees with me about city being a winnable game, but Arsenal? Anything but a win is points dropped.

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Red

Arsenal are a good team and Walcot is back and I have to disagree with you about 3 points being a minimum, but if it happens i would be delighted.

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Silva is a huge miss he has been excellent so far

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Gcu
To be fair i though arsenal would sign a top striker.
They signed welbeck

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I see the City and Arsenal games as winnable and Palace should be beat aswell there is no form team this year Chelsea haven't lost yet but aren't really impressing me to the extent potential Champions League winners and the premiership this year wouldn't be hard to win

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31 Oct 2014 18:41:39
Well to an extent jred yes, people will certainly be a lot more optimistic and positive with the man in charge but I still don't know how we'll cope against them. Even with Silva out, it could go either way.

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Oz
thats the derby

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30 Oct 2014 05:07:01
Don't understand why anyone will be happy with a draw at city right now. I will view it as two points dropped for sure. They are in terrible form, West Ham and Newcastle beat them convincingly and just like us they have a shaky defense. At least we are coming on the back of a decent defensive performance against Chelsea and on a higher morale. And it looks like Rooney will be fit. They have Silva and Toure as doubts for the game.

There is no better time to play City than this. With the quality of Di Maria, Januzaj, Rvp, Rooney and if fit Falcao, and a revitalized Fellaini we must look at putting Mangala under pressure and anything other than a win would be slightly dissapointing.

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Agreed that City are off form but i'd still be surprised if we won. City jave enough quality to change a game at any time.

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@Joeee

Sure they do, but so do we!

Especially if Silva and/or Toure don't play anything less than a win will be points dropped.

The league, apart from Chelsea is quite poor this year. City, Arsenal, Liverpool are all playing poor and are hit and miss and not too better than us. We should be looking at getting a strong consistent run together and 2nd place could be areal possibility this season.

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Silva and toure will play as will aguerro. And these three always get the better of us no matter what form they're in. Up to us to have a plan to out score them and defend well, which we haven't been doing this season.

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30 Oct 2014 09:45:38
Agree we should have a right go at them on Sunday, but as our resident positivity benchmark nomidfield says City seem to have the beating of us at the moment and can turn it on at any time.

I think it will be a cracking game that could go either way, but if we lose I wouldn't overreact (I am aware people will and tell us how many points Moyes had at the same stage last season and how LVG isn't as good because of this) but we will certainly put up more of a fight than we did last year, and definitely more so than we put in in the derby at Old Trafford.

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I think the City match could go anyway especially as derby's tend to ignore form.
We have a good chance although our away form is not Great this year.what better way to change that than at City followed by Arsenal 2 games later!
Will be interesting to see where Rooney slots in but I imagine it will be for Mata with same team other than that.

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I genuinely don't have a clue how we will do on Sunday. There is no better time to play City, but they will be thinking the same about us.

I'm looking for a positive performance, if we get a pasting by being negative I will be really disappointed, but if we have a go I can't see that happening. I think it will be a goal fest and whoever has the most balls will win it.

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@Nomidfield

This is a completely different United team to the one that City seemingly have the beating of.

Different left back, center back and entire midfield. Strikers are the only ones that are the same, if Falcao plays, even that will be different.

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Manchester United should look to win every game. However I don't agree that when going to the home of the Champions a draw is disappointing.

There seems to be some unrealistic expectations being set for LvG this Sunday, almost don't win and it isn't good enough. I expect our team to go to win but if we got a draw I do not see that as derogatory to what LvG is doing.

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With LVG we are set up to win every game. It will be no different against City and we will continue to attack in numbers. I think it will be much higher scoring than the Chelsea game. It will be tight and I expect that City will bring their A game regardless of form.

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Gds
Whats with all the snide comments ?
Everyone of your post seem to be a sly dig at someone

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I am with mmid on this it will be a tight game but we will lose. A draw is a great result. Not many teams get anything there even the teams who are supposedly our competition for 4th place. BTW i ask posted in that early pre season pole that we would finish 3rd and still believe that and arsenal 4th.

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I had arsenal chelsea city united. Unless arsenal sign costa i'm sunk

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LOL

Jred i think you can safely rule out Arsenal chances of winning the league. I don'y think Chelsea will get chased down by Arsenal. I had City, Chelsea, United and Arsenal and predicted Liverpool will have a difficult season, which some people here completely disagreed.

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With no Europe, massive investment, a hyped up manager (taking away my now disdain for the man, initially I was excited about him), world class players with a point to prove, I thought we would win the league. Alas I was being over optimistic. Second is likely now but I am very concerned how shattered we look having had so few games, we need to get this sorted before the Xmas fixture congestion. Frankly we can't play much worse with the players we have, so to still be in touch despite results and performances it is a miracle, things have got to start clicking soon.

I just can't believe how poor everyone bar Chelsea have been, and being brutally honest Chelsea haven't been that great having watched most of their games - Costa has just been clinical, and Hazard has been on fire.

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Beast

Chelsea have stayed away from Injuries have a very settled back four that plays every week together and just a very solid team across the pitch with a couple of players having blinders so far.

I actually thought we were the better team in the first half against them but once they get ahead they are extremely difficult to break down and retain the ball very well and have tons of pace in the likes hazard and willian to hit you on the break whilst you are pushing up and chasing the game.

Just a very solid group of players assembled and good across the pitch.

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@Red Man

Why is it unrealistic? We are being managed by Louis Van Gaal, he is no Moyes and then there's the little matter of a 150mil worth of investment. We need to get out of the mid table mentality that Moyes apparently set.

Van Gaal has a much better side than the one Sir Alex had in his last season and he managed to win at the Etihad against a stronger City side on much better form. I bet Sir Alex didn't go there with a "draw would be a good result" mentality.

No better time to play City and we should be able to beat them. It will be the first sign of the progress and improvement Van Gaal has made from last year. Winning a big game, something Moyes never did.Isn't that what a manager with a proven track record is supposed to deliver?

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@GCU

Agreed on Chelsea. A well oiled machine with a rock solid foundation. You could literally feel Jose's philosophy/method/style being implemented from day 1 when he joined. They still look like they can up it a gear or two if they need to.

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Exactly GCU, couldn't agree more. They are tactically very astute normally, (Mourinho made a big mistake dropping off against us), experienced and organised. They are definitely beatable and haven't set the world alight with great football.

In a couple of years with the correct midfield general and CB leader signed we will be able to dominate again, so long as our prospects develop and LVG's plan happens. We have great foundations.

We benefited from everybody playing badly a couple of seasons ago, I think it will be Chelsea's turn this year unfortunately.

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REDFAITH

It is not unreasonable to aim or to plan to win a game, if it is away at the home of the Champions who beat us quite easily home and away last season then to expect to win is folly. This seems to be a case of setting an over expectation, to then enable people to criticise LvG for failing to win one particular game.
Manchester United go out with the aim to win games even away to City but to expect to win is arrogant.
I think we should step back from setting LvG short term demands game by game because otherwise you would be back on here on Sunday night saying he had let us down, should we not win. We might win, but it's a game of football and fact is they won the championship so we have some way to go to get back to that level.

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I think a point would be a good result but i don't see why this squad can't beat city, newcastle and west ham did.
Ddg, shaw, rojo, herrera mata, rooney, di maria, adan, falcao rvp. To name but a few.

For me top 4 is a must with this squad, i think fergy would win the league with it.

Imo we have underperformed so far although many seem to disagree .

But i honestly think this group of players is capable of beating city something i couldn't say last year

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30 Oct 2014 21:51:10
Jred,

It wasn't a sly dig, it was banter at nomidfield based on a post from last week, nothing sly, just humour, but thanks for asking.

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Jred

I think we are capable of beating City, especially given the unity of purpose, organisation and fight we showed last weekend. Agree that we couldn't say that last year. Whether we will win is totally open because it's a game of football. We have a far better chance now than last season, of that I am certain.

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Redman
After a 150 mil spent i would hope so

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Jred

£65m spent last year and we still got thrashed

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@Red Man

And is that the standard we are going to judge by? Oh he is doing marginally better than Moyes so its fine?

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REDFAITH

No and you know that. My point there was that spending the money is only part of it.
LvG is not my first choice, Klopp was, but LvG is doing the right things unlike his predecessor. I might not have agreed with the LvG appointment, although I did far far more than Moyes, however his gravitas merits time. What manager worth his salt will come, if as Beast suggests we sacked him now?
I see signs, like the never give up attitude from last week, that things are improving and will give him time. It is the next manager we should be thinking about, lining up a Pep or Klopp, but stop bickering about LvG. The players clearly believe and I am happy to go along with him as things stand but I do want to see it improve. LvG knows the standards set and we can judge later in the season if he is meeting them.

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I agree sacking him would be silly and absolutely the wrong move but we also need to be a lot more careful now and scrutinize what is going on. I see far too many of the same negatives that were under Moyes and very few positives to feel comfortable at all, especially after spending so much, yet not addressing immediate needs with class players.

To me, it seems as though the players are relaxed because the bar has been lowered, just getting into the CL is OK now and due to LVG's previous record there isn't the intense scrutiny from the media that was there with Moyes but there will be if things become worse, its all hanging in the balance at the moment.

I agree we need to judge around January and if we are comfortably in the UCL places he will have obviously done a good job. Regardless though, if Klopp is available in the summer Ed Woodward who is clearly a fan of his has a difficult decision to make, and he has shown himself to be ruthless in the past with Moyes so you never know.

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Redman
I fail to see what your point is with the 65 mil comment other than a dig a moyes.
To be honest i don't think last seasons games against city are of any relevance when discussing the out come of the game on sunday.

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30 Oct 2014 02:14:25
Gagus
No he never pal .
The fact you think he did says it all.

jred
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I'm simply saying you make him out to be this hated figure at Bayern and that really isn't true. You read about these things and take it as gospel. Lahm still seems to like him. Robben had no problems with him becoming Dutch coach.

Didn't Mourinho once fall out with Abramovich? But Chelsea would never take him back.

You say he didn't lay the groundwork at Bayern. Well he converted Schweinsteiger from an inconsistent winger to a powerful central midfielder. He brought through the likes of Alaba, Muller, Kroos and signed Robben. All those players are/were key players in the recent success of Bayern Munich. He won the double in his first season, and got an inexperienced Bayern side to the CL final(knocking United out on the way).

As for whether he is doing better than Moyes well if you can't see the improvement in style of play and the renewed never say die attitude of the players, then perhaps you simply don't want to.

Van Gaal has won trophies at every club he has been, like Mourinho, like Sir Alex. Has won the league title at every club he has been. Took a sh!te Holland to 3rd place in the World Cup, beating one of the best International sides of all time 5-1. We are playing a much better style of football with a renewed fighting spirit that wasn't seen under Moyes, no matter the quality of player.

The reason people are more forgiving of the average start points wise is the track record of LVG proves he can do it. His start at Munich was similar, that's not to say it's an indication that he will turn it around for sure, but it certainly shows that he has the ability to do so.

I certainly have more belief in him that I ever had or would have had under David Moyes.

We should take a step back and look at this. This is the hardest job he has ever taken on. He has succeeded at every club he has been, some of them the biggest on the planet. Yet here he is at the biggest club going, trying to restore Manchester United to the pinnacle of football with the shadow of Sir Alex still looming large, following the worst season in over 20 years. He took over probably the worst United side since the 80's with more competitive teams than ever.

I think you're all expecting far too much, too soon.

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30 Oct 2014 05:37:41
Gagus,

I agree with the whole of your post, but for some reason we have people on this site already saying LVG is not good enough and even suggesting (somewhat embarrassingly) that he should be sacked before he has even had time to be judged.

I wonder if some of the people complaining would stand up at old Trafford and shout their opinion or whether it is just much easier to bitch and whine and get a reaction on a website.

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Gagus
He won 4 titles in 20 years, that for me is average .
Have a proper look at his time at munich he fell out with the directors and 90 % of the players.
The football was poor watch .
I brought through some of the young players but these where top players all ready at the club.
He converted schweinsteiger to cm but one of the final nails in the coffin was that lvg wanted to sell him and the board said no.
Make no mistake lvg was disliked by the munich board .
I have said a 100 times now lvg will prob do ok at united but its very clear that people don't no a thing about him .

I expect us to finish top 4 but after 9 games a return of 13 points from 27 is not a good return and how people can come on here saying what a great job lvg has done SO far is beyond me.
Liverpool have had a poor start but have more points than us SO far.
Ps i'm not expecting to much to soon just giving an honest opinion of how its gone SO far. I have always said managers need time even moyes

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Gagus
Have a look at the falling outs at ajax and barcelona as well.

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4 titles in 20 year .
A lot of agro at every club he has been at .
Managed two "big" clubs before and it didn't end well at either.
I think he is a decent manager and some of his teams have played great football, his early spell at ajax and barcelona.
But is he really as good as the papers make out or he himself says ?
His first stint at ajax in the early 90s was great but imo he has lived of that ever since .
Like i have said i think he will do ok at united and united will do well as we are splashing the cash and money talks.

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30 Oct 2014 09:41:53
jred,

I don't think I have seen anybody on here say LVG has done a 'great job' so far so not sure where you are getting that from, I certainly have not, and I have just searched the page and the words are there twice, both by you.

We could have done better so far in quite a few aspects, but there was a lot to change and we have changed some of the things, other things not so much.

LVG's whole persona is to come across as arrogant and a little off the wall, it helps him be how he is with the press and allows him to say things that the press lap up without getting him in too much trouble. He knows how to play the games with the press just like Fergie did.

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Don't care if he falls out with the board just as long as he has a decent team left and a League title in his pocket

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I think everyone is being a bit dramatic here. Van Gaal has had a poor start to the season, and his lack of investment in defenders was a huge mistake. But he should be given a season to prove that he is worthy of the job. The same as last season, CL qualification is the minimum requirement and if he doesn't achieve this he has failed.

But to say that a manager who has won some of Europe's top leagues and the CL itself is average is a bit silly. Any manager who has won these competitions is in a very small minority. In fact, when I see people who were championing Moyes last season (1 second division title in 15 years of management before joining us) calling van Gaal average, it's a bit rich.

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Gds
With the exception of beast i haven't seen a single person say lvg isn't good enough.

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Danny don't get mixed up.
I think all managers should be given time which has always been my argument it doesn't matter if its fergy moyes or lvg .
I 100 % don't agree with "i wanted moyes out from day 1 but give lvg time " attitude.
I also don't agree with the lvg can do no wrong attitude.

he has made a few mistakes and its been a poor start but as i have said i'm sure he will do well at united .

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Jred

his first spell at ajax was also blessed with some of the finest young dutch talent all coming though at one time ala fergie 92.

I don't understand why people like to make these guys messiahs or goats even mourinho spend freely to get world class players to own. give him a small team and small budget and he will be better than the average manager but nothing worldly.

His stint at porto he had 7 or 8 starters from the portuguese national team all coming through, again right place right time. He ended up bringing half of them to chelsea with him lol.

Give goony pulls 150 million and the squad before the summer window and I am sure he would be a very good manager.

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Give pullis I meant to say.

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Gcu
Agree about ajax and there was also the cruffy effect but i think it was a special time.
Money talks i think we have bought well this season and are seeing the benefits .
But if we want to win the league we will need to continue to spend big imo .
Amazing to think we have spent 250 mil in just over 12 month and still need more

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Jred agreed

I think we need to spend another 80 million on centre backs, mids, and a right winger. Janusaj final delivery is still very raw and poor and we need something better on the right. Valencia has no final delivery at all lol.

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