Manchester United Banter Archive July 31 2012

31 Jul 2012 23:14:37
here is an idea, forget what the Glazers are doing to us and be thankful we're not in a situation like Rangers or Portsmouth. yes they're complete t**** but we're still running well. just be greatful for what we do have. The Moon.

Silly post as unlike Rangers and Portsmouth our club makes massive profits so even the most financially r*****ed fool would realise we can spend some profits on transfers and reduce ticket prices IF we didn't have to pay someone elses debt. Its the same BS in the eurozone at the moment. You have greedy corporate businessmen who gambled and lost other peoples money and now expect the small man pay for it. We are fools to put up with this crap

Manchester United will never suffer the same fate as Portsmouth or Rangers. We're one of the biggest sporting brands in the world and would always represent a promising investment were the club to become available - whether that be through choice or necessity.

T0MB0Z

I would say never is abit arrogant. The bigger you are the harder you fall as they say. But I will say its unlikely we'll suffer as Rangers and Pompey have.

Shappy

"God himself could not sink this ship" - This is what was told about Titanic... where is it

Hopefully we can stay where we are....
AJ

31 Jul 2012 23:06:18
if the news about the ipo is true and the glazers are taking a decent % of any poss revenue then we are well and truly screwed when it comes to any potential big name signings, i have been vilified on these pages over recent weeks by people supposedley in the know regarding who is joining and who isnt, well let me say it again kagawa will be our most expensive signing this summer, end of ,thats it, get used to it guys because thats the way it is now and for the forseeable future, we are no longer able to compete with city, chelsea etc, FACT.

Last time I checked the club still has £70m in the bank...

T0MB0Z

You don't have a name. How are we supposed to know whether you have been vilified?

G.A.G.U.S

When have we competed with Chelsea in the transfer market since the Russian took over for you to say no longer?

GDS

TOMBOZ

Does your bank account always have the same in? They go up and down and whatever is in may be earmarked like £45m for interest payments, what day do the players get paid on , don't forget our annual wage bill divided into months is £12m approx

Red Man

Red Man

This is true - but whilst money may be earmarked for certain things you're forgetting that money will still be coming in. Given that we're turning over £300m+ it stands to reason that another £25m or so will be coming in each month as well (from which wages and debt repayments will be taken).

I get what you're saying - but £70m is a very healthy amount to have in the bank and from what I hear this amount will soon be added to with the initial payment of our new sponsorship deal. We have money.

T0MB0Z

31 Jul 2012 21:20:45
So looks like Mr Ferguson, Gill and the Glazers could profit from the flotation. Looks like me and RFT were right along.

Gill, Glazers and Mr Ferguson are indeed 'Shysters'

Blair Mayne YNWA JFT96

Again Blair, you are lying. KLOOT has mentioned stuff like this, you have not.

G.A.G.U.S

But it's like the little boy who cried wolf with you Blair; if only you didn't come on here at the start of each season spouting nonsense like 'L'pool will challenge at the top this year' or 'we're one or two signings away from winning the league' lol, people wouldn't necessarily dismiss everything else you say as rubbish!

Gav

31 Jul 2012 20:32:20
GDS, if you try and be impartial when discussing the Glazers you are immediately a Glazer apologist. Andy Green is a financial adviser and very impartial and if he was on here he would be called a Glazer apologist. He gets called it on Twitter a lot. People think if you look at something from BOTH sides you are a traitor. We all know the Glazers are bad owners, but they are not at fault for everything. Some people also expect us to be spending like City and Chelsea, that is just unrealistic. But say any of this and you are a Glazer apologist.

Sydney!

is this a wind up , when have you ever looked at it from BOTH sides.

when it comes to our transfers i have never heard you say a single negative thing about the glazers, its always the players fault or the agents, or the suggar daddys or even fergys, but never the glazers.

have a look at it from the other side ,
1/ is there any chance that the glazers have had a negative affect on our transfers.

2/is there any chance that the glazers have decided to use money to pay of the debt instead of buying players.

3/is the any chance that with out spending over 500mill on the debt over 7 years we could of been more competitive.

4/is that any chance that money that has been spent on the debt has stopped fergy from buying the players he wanted

5/is there any chance that with out the debt and the 500mill we have spent on it which as discussed before is more than chelsea or city have spent on players that we could of competed with these teams.


jred

I recall him saying a fair amount about the Glazers' impact on our dealings in the transfer market actually...

T0MB0Z

I have alittle point with this:

"3/is the any chance that with out spending over 500mill on the debt over 7 years we could of been more competitive."

Have we or have we not had our most successful time as a club with things won over this period or not? If so then we've been more than competitive.

And secondly don't we all slate City and Chelsea for "Buying" titles by just going out and buying the best players, yet it sounds like this is excactly what your calling for us to do.

Food for thought.

Shappy

Shappy
Whats wrong with buying the top players with money the club generate
Jred

I think the point of the post is about looking at it From both points of view syd and others have made some good point as to why we have struggled at the top end of the transfer market but can anyone really say that none of the above points are also valid.
Jred

Even with all the money city have i really dont think they were better than us last year..remember technically they only won the title after we gave away an 8 point lead

Jred, had the Glazers never spent a fortune on Nani, Anderson, Hargreaves & Tevez in one window in 2007, spent £30.75m on Berbatov in 2009 and spent £50m last summer I guess I would be more sceptical regarding the Glazers. Yes they have had an impact on the transfers, but I genuinely believe the manager can spend within reason just like most self sufficient clubs can, in-fact I think he can spend more than 99.9% self sufficient clubs. I believe the manager's stubbornness is a major factor regarding agent fees and player's salaries, but I believe the Glazers have made him that way due to the debt they have lumbered on the club. I think the manager has been terrified of signing another Berbatov or Veron due to us not being able to let them go on the cheap and replace them if they flopped like City or Chelsea could. So yes the Glazers do play a part in this, but I do think the manager is backed far more than you believe. That is my opinion on the matter. This will be my only post as I am busy today mate.

Sydney!

Syd
i think everyone knows what you think , but you raised the issue of looking at it from both sides which i dont think you do.
for example you ignored the possibility of the the 5 points i made being true and again just pointed out your view.

i would imagine that is a looking at the issue from 1 side not both , that side being your own.
jred

I don't think there is a problem as such, but we are treading a fine line slating others for doing what we would do in the same situation.

To be honest I prefer the cheaper signings who turn out to be much better than we expected. Players like Hernandez Evra and Vidic who were all bought for a relative pitance. Other then that I would prefer we concentrate on youth and bring thought some great players. I find that in general the players either brought through or bought for a smaller fee(there for considered more of a gamble) tend to be more loyal than those bought for huge fees with big reputations.

Shappy

Shappy
i think its getting the balance right , relative cheap players with a good youth set up and big investment when required eg ferdinant , when need a cb went out and got the best about.
it would be nice if we did the same with our cm issue , bought one of the best cm out there.
jred

01 Aug 2012 18:39:00
Just because he didn't address each point implicitly doesn't mean he didn't address them.

To be honest, jred - the 'five' points you mentioned are all pretty much the same one. You believe the Glazers and the debt which they have lumbered the club with has limited us in the transfer market.

At the end of the day it will have to remain an 'agree to disagree' situation as only a handful of people really know the financial implications imposed on SAF by the Glazers (Gill, the Glazers and SAF himself).

Just for fun though I'll address all of your points with a question of my own.

When the Glazers took over in 2005 turnover was at £169.1m (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/manchester-united-the-biggest-club-in-the-world-6146271.html). I can't be bothered to find a list of year by year turnovers - but assuming the club's turnover has grown at an equal rate every year since the Glazers took over (around £25m/year) to the point we're at now (£320m turnover) our accumulative increase in turnover stands at somewhere in the region of £525m up to the end of 2011 [(195-170) + (220-170) + (245-170) + (270-170) + (295-170) + (320-170)].

Of course the growth rate could be different (as I'm going on educated guess work) and it could certainly be argued that the club would have grown had it remained a plc (although many big companies struggled to combat the effects of the recession leading to huge losses / decrease in turnover - which barely seemed to touch Manchester United).

Based on this - Is there any chance that the changes in the club's infrastructure enforced by the Glazers upon their purchase of the club have in fact brought in more money to the club than has been spent on the debt?

T0MB0Z

Jred, the sides are not 'my side' and the 'Glazers side', you are getting lost in this discussion. It's whether it's the Glazers telling the manager he isn't allowed the funds that he wants or whether there's a different reason to why we are not concluding our deals. I believe there are a few different reasons why we are not concluding our deals. The manager's stubbornness being one reason or players simply choosing another club over ours is another. After weighing up both sides of the argument I believe the cash is there and it's the manager's stubbornness that's the main issue.

Sydney!

T0MB0Z, you are spot on, all five points mean the same thing. It means the Glazers are refusing to back the manager. I have considered this, weighed up all of the evidence and my opinion remains the same. There is zero evidence to back-up Jred's claims that the manager is being refused money. But us spending £50m last summer is a nice bit of evidence to back my opinion.

Sydney!

Syd
actual i though the issue was looking at it from both sides of the argument on all of my points i have started with "is there any chance" if you cant accept that there is a chance there is no pint discussing anything with you.
jred

31 Jul 2012 19:51:04
The Glazers are a greedy pack of weasels who are destroying the values of our club. the F.A. should step in and do whats right for the fans and make sure they don't make a penny in profit until the debt is paid off. The same system should be put in place to ensure there won't be another hostile takeover/aggressive robbery allowed to happen.

Its sickening and that puts to bed any arguments those few fools have made on their behalf on this site. You have no argument anymore, the Glazers robbed our club, our money and our future and anyone who backs them in future should be ashamed at their lack of intellect.

Flimbo

Unfortunately the Fa or Premier league are powerless to stop such takeovers as once a business is floated on a stockmarket then they have to adear to their rules and leveraged buyouts are legal. It was the greed of the previous owners who floated us first time round to make to make more money for themselves which opened us up to the kind of takeover the Glaziers did. Yet no one bemoans these guys who were out to bleed us dry too.

Shappy

I never liked the horse owners either but at least they used their own money and sold the club for a profit rather than buying the club with its own money, how the hell was that allowed?

Flimbo

When you buy a house do you use your money or do you get a mortage? It's no different then what the Glazers have done.

Shappy

I might take a £2.5bn mortgage out on United and then put all the debt on the club? Sounds like easy money haha

a1tjw

31 Jul 2012 17:51:53
Not quite sure what this anti Glazers rant is all about.?
I know your all already fuming but hear me out.
Obviously they have put the clubbin debt by borrowing money to acquire it , but this was always going to be an option for someone to do.
The debt is being paid off, now I know they are also servicing other business they own and lining pockets with our profits but it is being paid off.
Also we have pretty much doubled are global branding since they have took over, kept up winning trophies and are challenging on all fronts every year.
Also they look like they have just secured one of the best shirt sponsors in history.
In a couple of years the debt should be gone, at that point we will prob have expanded even more as a global brand.
FFP won't affect us because of our profits and we will be the biggest and most successfully run club in the world .
I know how furious it makes people to see them draining us but they ARE repaying the debt and marketing us very well.

You are a dreamer, debts paid off in a couple of years, what planet are you on you person.
Those shysters have bled our club dry and there are still fools like you on here who don't have a clue sticking up for them.
As I said a few days ago we won't sign anyone else, we can't sell all our season tickets but it's ok folks because some yank car company will be our sponsors,great.
Dark dark days ahead I feel.
God I hope Kagawa is superman or something because we need it.

Red Daz.

They have just valued the club at £2bn and are selling 10% of the club. If profits fall and the shares fall in value then how are they going to sell any more for the same price. How can they increase profits and buy what we need to compete in the transfer market at the top level. To me this strategy is risky and a sign of desperation

Red Man

One thing that confuses me is that everyone is blaiming the Glazers for ticket prices... These are based on a market rate, our prices are competitive with the other clubs at the top of the prem. MUFC has been a business for much longer than the Glazer's reign, and would always have maximised match day revenue.

I'm not a Glazer lover, but I'm not sure them selling through public share offer is that great for us either.. As Ed002 said earlier, institutional investors would take far more money out of the club.

DodgyBanter

31 Jul 2012 17:27:16
I would expect that most people who visit this site are interested in the football that is played on the pitch and not what is discussed at boardroom level with the Glaziers. Why do people get all hot and bothered about things they have no control over. Look at the trophies won since Glaziers took over. I bet all you doom merchants would take the last 4 - 5 years again.

Chris

1. Its Glazers not Glaziers, really bugs me.

2. Some of us aren't the spoiled 90's generation but grew up in the 80's or even earlier, talk to Red Man or Kloot for what the 70's were like. As much as the 3rd European Cup and titles 18 & 19 were some of the greatest moments of my life i can honestly say i would swap them for having none or almost no debt and owners that genuinely had a sense of feeling for the club and the fans rather than these zombies. Mort

Chris

The Glazers took over with a younger Giggs,Scholes,Rio, Neville and in particular Rooney and Ronaldo all in place. They have had a good run based on the top players who were already there. Since we lost Ronaldo they have underinvested and anyone watching last season shoud be able to see the decline in our standard.

Too many people have got comfy with success and think it will just continue.

They plunge us into hundreds of millions of debt and we still await the purchase of top players

I think they have given us plenty of problems from the boardroom

Red Man

I said something simular this morning. Talk of our debt is getting old...

1redarmy

Talk of our debt is getting old, you say.

We are talking about the future of our club. One that I sat crying over in the dark days of 1974. People have got used to 20 years of success and have no concept of how important this is.

Red Man

31 Jul 2012 17:05:29
Get over it G.A.G.U.S, they bought the club.....they own it. They can do what they want with all the share money....it's theirs. Do you honestly think they do all this for nothing. They are businessmen and they want their share.
You should have bought the club when you had a chance.

Highlandpedro.
-------------------
I'm sorry, but who is this clown?

Th Glazers put us 500m in debt, took 500m out of the club in interest payments, and are paying off the debt with our money. Now they're floating part of the club, and having said they would use the proceeds on the debt, they have lied and are taking half of the proceeds for themselves.

Don't tell me to 'get over it' you cretin

G.A.G.U.S

Agreed Gagus. he is nothing but a person and your posts are more than welcome :-)

Flimbo

So you call him a clown after he makes a completely legitimate and factual statement and then refer to the money raised from the Glazers selling off part of their business as 'our money'?

T0MB0Z

TOMBOZ

I see you're still in love with the Glazers.

G.A.G.U.S

Well said T0MB0Z...this is not as black and white as the Glazers taking all the money! Would anyone like to think what would happen to the club if the Glazers couldn't pay their own debts? Think Portsmouth and Rangers (now don't jump on that, im not comparing those two clubs with our situation, im simply saying that consequences for clubs can be dire if the owners can't manage their own debts). Yes the Glazers were wrong to go back on their decision regarding what the money was going to be used for, but they could just as easily take it all! The debt will be paid off, it will probably take longer now however, and the club will probably be sold within the next 5 years (as I've said before, floating the club is designed to test the waters for interest in the shares). Everyone needs to calm down and stop adding 2 and 2 and getting 5...everyone likes to complain about journalists jumping to conclusions...yet that's exactly what the majority of people are doing on here regarding the shares situation!

Andy

G.A.G.U.S

I see you're still chatting nonsense regarding issues which you're clearly misinformed about...

T0MB0Z

Thanks TOMBOZ, how is it G.A.G.U.S's money?......you paid for a product...ie Manchester United ticket...to watch a match....they supplied the product!

All you Green and Golds are going nowhere with your anti-Glazer protests....if you really meant to hurt them....you would attack their wallets. STOP GOING TO ALL THE GAMES FOR A SEASON OR TWO.....Wearing a scarf really scares them.

If you want loads of money to spend on players every season and a super rich owner....nip across the city to the council house there's a seat in the stadium waiting for you there.

Many businesses are bought this way. The majority of business people buy businesses with other peoples money and loans secured from other sources...it's common practice. It's very rare for a business to be bought with personal money.....because this is not a safe practice. What the Glazers did, is very normal in a business sense. It is only complicated by the affections the fans have for their beloved teams. The fans are binkered by this affection and devotion to their teams....We are just fans.....nothing more, nothing less. The Glazers are shrewd businessmen. They didn't buy Manchester United to lose money. It's a business and they would have had a long term plan for the club.

I understand G.A.G.U.S fears with regards Manchester United. However we have won lots since the Glazers arrived and Ferguson has always got the money, when asked. When the day comes for them to sell, they will make a tidy profit and I like G.A.G.U.S, hope that whoever buys will be a super rich sugardaddy.....but I doubt it. Manchester United would cost too much to buy outright and I'm sure even a super rich Russian or Sheikh would be put off by forking out £1.5 - £2 billion.

THE CLOWN.......

31 Jul 2012 16:06:03
So the Glazers are only using half the money they raise from the flotation, towards the debt. I suppose they'll use the rest of it towards the transfer kitty NOT! lol

Blair Mayne YNWA JFT96

Ps. Lets hear your excuses Disney/Malcolm.......
--------------------
This is a Manchester United related issue and your opinion is not wanted nor needed. Go away!

G.A.G.U.S

Oops!

Have I hit a nerve GAGUS mate? I take great pleasure in watching the Glazers bleed you dry. Just like you and many others did when Hicks + Gillett were in charge of us.

The difference is, we got off our asses and did something about it. You still have your green and gold scarves in your closet not even out of the packet.

That's the difference between us and you mate. We will fight tooth and nail for our club. Can you say the same?

Blair Mayne YNWA JFT96

To be honest Blair, you might of been able to keep a hold of your best players if you hadn't spent over a £100 million on garbage last year. In Kenny you trusted? And I suppose in Rodgers you trust when you've signed a Chelsea reject. Crawl back to your own page and try to keep a hold of your half decent players like Agger.

RedDevil19

I'd be interested in hearing what he has to say if he has a genuine comment as 1 football fan to another rather than scouse sneering and snide remarks.

Blair, Liverpool fans didn't oust the Americans, RBS did. Damn you are deluded.

Sydney!

You take great pleasure in watching the Glazers bleeding us dry? Pretty much the only thing you can celebrate.

You fight tooth and nail for you club? LOL What did you do Blair, to get rid of Hicks & Gillette? The banks got rid of them Blair. Not you. And now you're telling me how to support my club? Pathetic!

G.A.G.U.S

Bye bye:

Agger
Johnson
Suarez
Carroll
Kuyt
Maxi
Skrtel
Reina

Hello bottom half of the table.

Lets see how much H&G invest this summer, oops I meant FSG.

Sydney!

The hostility in here tonight is absolutely hilarious. I told you all last month when you thought the flotation was a good thing, it was bad news. The Glazers are doing exactly what I said they would do 'be going absolutely nowhere'.

But you thought you knew best BUT again I am proved correct.

Cheers

Blair Mayne YNWA JFT96

Yes of course RBS had to do most of the work to get rid of our verim. But don't forget the Spirit Of Shankly and other LFC fans groups. Who continuously protested on the street and on the internet, to rid us of H&G.

Even Hicks said when he tried to get refinancing. That the "Internet Terrorists" (his words) had made it difficult. The bank he was talking about was the Deutsche Bank. Their PR women openly admitted that our emails had played a significant role in their decision not to refinance these cowboys.

So yes ladies, we played a major part in ridding ourselves of our vermin.

Who will come to your rescue, Stone Roses and RFT? LOL

Blair Mayne YNWA JFT96 {Ed007's Note - E-mails to a bank Blur?? That's just keyboard warrior stuff mate, good job it didn't rain that day. I have told you before if you want to see how fans can 'take back' their club read up on Celts For Change from 1993. Don't come on and claim the moral high-ground when you are in the presence of greatness when it comes to this ;-)

Blair, you have NEVER once mentioned the flotation on this site. You obsessed fool.

8th place, Sigurdsson turned you down, Europa League.

G.A.G.U.S

Don't worry Blair, they won't even thank you when they realised what you been telling them all along, Fergie is a shyster whose had dreams of lining his own pockets all along.

Jatt YNWA

You did it we did it, Ed mate. Why can't the Mancs do it? They are the self acclaimed 'biggest club in the world' but still they can't seem to drum up enough support to get the ball rolling?

They lack passion. Something us LFC fans and Celts, have plenty of.

Blair Mayne YNWA JFT96

31 Jul 2012 14:59:44
I have a sneeky little feeling that the signing of Moura is much closer than what is being reported, for a player of his quality and calibre there seems to be no other team even in with a shout of signing him. Inter showed some interest but that was only mentioned by the Sao Paulo president. After the Olympics have finished I fully expect Moura to be a Man Utd player...

I agree OP, Sao Paulo offering Moura a new deal hints at that as well as it explains what Lucas has to 'consider' after the Olympics. I imagine it will be either sign for us or a new deal with Sao Paulo.

RedDevil19

31 Jul 2012 14:03:13
"Supporters are going to be very angry about this," said Duncan Drasdo, chief executive of MUST, a group lobbying for fans to play a greater role in the ownership of the club.

"The Glazers have already cost United more than 550 million pounds in debt related fees and now another slap in the face as they help themselves to half of the proposed IPO proceeds," he added.

"Clearly this has nothing to do with benefits for Manchester United and is all about giving the Glazers quick access to desperately needed cash at the expense of our football club."

MUST has fought a long campaign against the Glazers, who bought the club for 790 million pounds in a highly-leveraged deal in 2005 and also own NFL team the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

I didn't know that MUST owned Manchester United....but according to Duncan Drasdo they do. When did the Glazers sell them Manchester United.

It's only a fans, club to support. We don't own it.....we can be angry and jealous of City and Chelsea.....they have debts too and they make massive losses each year.

The unreal fans out there want us to spend £80 - £100 million each year on players regardless of new UEFA finance rules. The debt is being managed and just because we didn't win anything last season...it's end of the world and the Glazers fault....get real...that's football. We don't have a god given right to win everything every year.

To all the doom and gloom merchants out there.....if you don't like it...find another club....there'sone that suits you just across the city!

You don't have the support or the power to hurt the Glazers.....your the minority and will always fail.

In Fergie I trust and always will.

Wake up.

SAF has been feeding you a load of spin/lies, as has David Gill. Now it's finally come to light just how cash-strapped the Glazers, and therefore we, are, you're still burying your head in the sand and pretending all is well.

RED_SKY

31 Jul 2012 13:57:05
Taking a step back, i think we should wait to really see the fall out from the latest news on the IPO. Say for example if the Glazers took 50% of the IPO and 50% went to our debt as reported, however we then signed Moura and RVP, would everyone still be as angry as they are now?
My point is this. If they continue to keep us competitive and improve the squad, stadium and revenue and if they continue to attract record deals with varying partners do we really have the right to be angry? I sit on the fence with the Glazers and i know RFT/KlOOT and others are anti-glazer (everyones entitled) but i cant help but think where we would be without them? Would we be that much better off?
I dont like the debt they saddled the team with but i cant help but be impressed with the revenue they have created and the partners they have attracted. If i owned Manchester United i would be tempted to do the same.
I for one will be with holding judgement until the end of the transfer window. If by then our squad is 2-3 world class players better, i will be happy.

Stuey

Stuey

I think the underlying problem is we don't know exactly how much debt is, directly or indirectly, leveraged against the club, and how long we'll have to continue to keep our belts tight for as a result (and pay through the nose for tickets). Without the Glazers' debt we'd have more money for players AND cheaper ticket prices. I'd estimate the overall debt directly / indirectly related to the club is £1bn, with them probably also hoping to cover debt they have relating to other ventures.

We, and they, have been lucky that Fergie had such solid foundations in place when they arrived, and is such a good manager. We weren't as good a team as our league position suggests last season or the season before; those achievements wouldn't have been possible without SAF at the helm. They've also been lucky with the £80m sale of Ronaldo.

It's hard to say how we would have done without them and it's pointless to speculate. We can only judge what we have on their actions, and the prognosis isn't good.

My personal opinion remains that a full flotation is probably 12 - 18 months away.

DarkLard08

Stuey
and if its not?
jred

Stuey

Would we be much better off?

Have you not seen what has happened over the last few years?

Without the Glazers we would not have half a billion pounds of debt, the other half a billion wasted on interest and fees would not have gone out of the club. Is that not enough reason alone?

Red Man

We'd be over £500m better off. Small change I know but every little helps.

Can I ask you something? What good is increased sponsorship, bigger stadium, and the resulting increase in revenue if it is not being invested in the team? Nobody is arguing that the Glazers business strategy isn't good news for them. But it simply isn't improving the club. The vast majority of improvements under the Glazers are geared toward increasing profits, and our profits have increased. But with record profits our club has become less and less competitive. We rely on older players, young players on cheap wages and a midfield which simply isn't anywhere near the top level. We continually fail to compete in the transfer market and now we're even finding it hard to hang on to our brightest youth prospects.

They admited that we can't compete because of our debt and said they had to sell shares to set this right. But surprise surprise they have lied once again and are putting the majority of the share money into their own pockets. I can't see how people are willing to be lied to year after year by the Glazers, Gill and Fergie, and still say things like let's give them the benefit of the doubt. We pay money to improve the club, the owners use this money to improve the club. That's the fundemental bond that sports clubs are built on. The Glazers don't abide by this, plain and simple.

Today I was talking to one of my City supporting friends and even he was angry because he thinks what the Glazers are doing is bang out of order. When City fans are pitying United fans the alarm bells should start going off. I can't fathom why supporters of this club continue to turn a blind eye to the biggest heist in the history of the game.

Danny Pughnited

A question for you Red Man, had the Glazers not bought the club, had we remained a PLC and had the money not gone out of the club do you think that we would have spent more money realistically? Or do you believe that SAF would have still refused to "overpay" for players through sheer stubborness?

TK-Red

TK, another good point. However I think our net spend would have been higher, but not by an incredible amount.

Sydney!

Basicly its uncle malcs club he risked all to buy it, the club has grown massively on and off the field.

You think if we didn't have the debt malcy baby would have weighed in 3-400m into players?

Maybe much more likely is he'd have trousered the lot it has nothing to do with the fans its his club.

All we can hope is he keeps us at the top nothing more, maybe the Moura and RVP deals go through (I doubt it) ,no matter what he needs Utd to do well

Pardoe

TK

I think there is a little stubbornness in SAF to pay agents. However SAF never thought twice about spending record amounts on Pallister, Cole, Keane , Rio , Rooney. He recognised what we needed it and went out and bought players at and above the going rate at the time.

I believe if the financial support was given to him he would have bought the key players sooner than this.

Red Man

Red Man, but don't you think the manager's stubbornness has perhaps increased due to the club's debt. Do you not think he has tightened the purse strings due to not wanting us to spend money on the wrong players. Perhaps the money is there if he spends it wisely? Is it the manager who is worried about buying another Berbatov? After all the Glazers did fund the Berbatov deal?

As this is a summer where we really need to buy well, I guess we will know more by September my friend. That's me off to bed now, play nice lads ;)

Sydney!

31 Jul 2012 13:41:00
red man it was me who asked the other day what is the point of MUST. I never got a reply and i still stand by the question. Their long term aims are unachievable. All you get out of them is buy a green and gold scarf. They've made a fair few quid over the last seven years. They're never going to be able to buy the club so whats the point? They're just making money out of the fans like the glazers. Ok so they update the fans but thats more andersred than anyone. Have you seen anything duncan drasdo has come out with today? Whatever happened to the red knights? What have MUST achieved? Protests haven't made a blind bit of difference.

We need a rich man to buy the glazers out. The Qataris would have been perfect. We can only dream !

31 Jul 2012 13:21:33
All the figures mentioned in the IPO money being pocketed by the glazers will not help the squad is understood.
But if glazers dont keep us competitive and winning trophies wont their brand lose value resulting in huge losses for them.
Thus we fans shouldnt worry about the IPO stuff and glazers getting richer as they will and they have to keep the business rollin as money spent will result in money earned by the club.
UNITEDABHISHEK

31 Jul 2012 13:00:58
Everyone seems to be moaning about not spending on x,y,z players.
These are my little cheer ups if we don't buy anyone else.


We've bought Powell & Kagawa both midfielders.

Cleverley, Anderson, Vidic didn't really contribute to last season so they'll obviously improve us this season.

DeGea, Jones, Young, Welbeck's first FULL SEASON with United. They will improve the coming season.

Chicharito has been rested & had a full pre-season.
Bebe has played well on tour.
Fabio will get much needed game time at QPR.

Petrucci, Tunnicliffe, Blackett, Brady have enjoyed playing on Tour. Good experience for them.

We'll have some money coming in from our 7yr shirt sponsor.
Shares are being sold. Maybe the Glazer's are pricing up to sell...... Yey!

See it's not all that bad.

Even the home & away kit I've grown to like now ;-)

Plus Park & Berbatov have or are being sold. Obviously not good news. Let's face it though, they wouldn't play much.
It's nice Park is QPR captain he can look after Fabio.
I wish Berbs all the best. Great player to watch & wasted in the stands watching.

Let's cheer ourselves up red Devils fans.

If u think of more pro's for this season jot them down.
Let's get a list going.

31 Jul 2012 12:48:41
Just have to say man utd are in trouble next season if the do not get their targets. City WILL strengthen with top class players i.e. Martinez,de rossi,maybe RVP etc and we will not stand a chance if we do not do the same.peace out.

Doni

31 Jul 2012 12:32:08
A distinct lack of Glazer apologists today, but I'm sure they're still around peeking their furry little heads out of their holes waiting for the coast to be clear to tell us that this is just how business works or some other nonsense.

We can assume that the Glazers waited for the Chevrolet deal to come through until they announced the flotation to make it look like the shares will be a good investment. But their actions should tell us a few things. By stating that they were floating because the club was unable to compete in the transfer market, and emphatically stating that all the money raised would all go toward the debt, the Glazers were telling us that the club is struggling financially despiute the record profits. By backtracking and pocketing the majority of the cash, they're telling us that the heist is nearly over and the plan is to grab as much cash before the whole thing collapses.

Don't expect anymore signings, the Glazer's aren't trying to impress us anymore. They're plotting their escape with as much cash as they can carry from the club. But be warned, Fergie is heading out the door soon too and what him and the Glazers leave behind may take years or even decades to repair.

Danny Pughnited

31 Jul 2012 11:27:11
I don't normally comment on figures and shares and stuff, but this whole business with the IPO is utterly disgusting. The Glazers are screwing the club and us the fans over. If all the cash went towards the debt then we would have cleared a lot of it, instead they are filling their pockets. Absolutly disgusting, I don't even think SAF can smooth this one over. I might even go and get myself a Green and Gold scarf to wear at the next competitive match. Furious.

RedDevil19

Hopefully the reported £100 million forward payment from Chevrolet will either go towards Fergie's transfer kitty or off the debt. Think the green and gold scarfs will be in force again amongst us the fans.

Mad Hatter

I wouldn't bet on all of the £100 million going towards the transfer kitty. We really are being screwed over, if no one could see it before today, then surely everyone can now see how the Glazer's are strangling the club.

RedDevil19

There is no £100m, Reuters were reporting the Chevy deal was £382m over seven years and $100m was to be paid upfront, but the latest reports are saying the deal is worth £210m (£30m over 7 seasons).

There is no £100m.

Sydney!

I think its $100mil. But yes i hope it goes completely towards SAF's transfer kitty or at least into paying off the debt.

REDFAITH

RedDevil19

Expect TOMBOZ and GDS from the glazers special forces to come out all guns blazing. Dont say you were not warned :-)

Millz

Do you honestly think you wearing a green and gold scarf will worry the Glazers and Ferguson and Gill?
Your wasting your money......if you want to hurt them, you have to boycott games and stop buying merchandise.
However you are the minority and always will be. Your doomed to failure from the start.
It's their business, not yours or any other fans. They have to make a personal profit somehow. If it was my business and did this, I'd take a share for myself always....because it's mine.

There's s few on here that could say " i told you so" I take no pleasure in that, but the writing's been on the wall for a while now....
HERBIE

Is the green and gold enough though????

we all love this club and want to support them as much as we can, but there comes a time when we as fans have to make a stand and make a big decision.

so what can we do. the green and gold is a start but I think that unless they get bigger (fast) and start making loud noise that those vermin can not ignore then there will have to be something else done.

I just do not know what...... we could boycott the first pl game of the season and buy no merchandise at present and see what happens...

it would still give them time to then think hang-on...... we have to do something and the transfer window would be open to purchase any targets, because at present it looks like we are making noise in the transfer market but nothing else.

Kagawa and Powell are great signings, but it is not everyday that you sign the BL player of the year on the cheap.....

By selling part of the club which they own and only putting half of the money back in to it? They're entitled to keep all of the money - so the fact that they're putting any of it back into the club comes as a surprise to me!

T0MB0Z

Millz,

You keep talking mate, every time, going on about me, 'Glazer apologist'. It's pathetic, if you actually ever read my posts and didn't listen to the drivel Kloot tells you then you would realise I do not like the Glazers more than anyone else on here.

Read my post further up, very disappointed today, I just like to focus on the positives in life, after all, we have not been relegated and are hopefully set for a pretty good season, despite what is going on off the field.

GDS

T0MB0Z, you are correct the Glazers are entitled to pocket the lot if they wished, but I think it was the fact they have gone back on their word that is the frustrating part. They did say ALL the proceeds will go to the debt.

Sydney!

GDS, if you try and be impartial when discussing the Glazers you are immediately a Glazer apologist. Andy Green is a financial adviser and very impartial and if he was on here he would be called a Glazer apologist. He gets called it on Twitter a lot. People think if you look at something from BOTH sides you are a traitor. We all know the Glazers are bad owners, but they are not at fault for everything. Some people also expect us to be spending like City and Chelsea, that is just unrealistic. But say any of this and you are a Glazer apologist.

Sydney!

Syd - to an extent - but weren't they initially seeking to raise a smaller amount? From what I remember the amount of debt originally to be paid off was below £100m. I could be wrong on that one - but isn't a higher amount of the debt being paid off now?

T0MB0Z

No mate they were meant to be paying off around half the debt. The £100m IPO was just a guideline amount.

Sydney!

Ah. I recall. It was 'a minimum of £100m' or something. I stayed away from the finer points to be honest...

T0MB0Z

31 Jul 2012 09:35:57
This is my first post on dis site and pls eds can you tell me if like some ppl here do not like d management of d club(glazers) can they sue them in d court? if not i feel they should just leave them or what were they doing when dey were buying d club {Ed004's Note - Didn't understand a word of that.}

Sounds like a poor rap song ;)

Mad Hatter

Sounds like Julio Geordio off Harry Enfiled

Cban

31 Jul 2012 09:03:16
So they will be floating 10% of the club to raise £190m. £75m off of the debt and the rest into the pockets of the vermin. Something tells me this is just ONE of two or three IPO's to be done before 2017. We will also receive a down payment of around £64m from the Chevy deal. The question is where is that cash going?

The club need to buy some top players now as there is simply no excuse to do otherwise.

Sydney!

The vermin you and other on here have been protecting for years.

and now everyone can see what the likes of RFT have been saying for years. the Glazers are bleeding our club dry and hopefully all you sheepneys will realise we dont have any money for transfers because the money is for the interest.

The glazers will keep selling off small chunks over the next few years to pay a bit of debt but to mainly line there pockets and then in 2017 when the bonds mature we will lend some more.

Maybe now you will admit that the glazers are killing MY club

Ralph

Ralph, I have NEVER protected the Glazers, only said that I believed there was funds for transfers. I still believe there is funds for transfers.

Sydney!

Its one thing being a positive fan and trying to look on the bright side.

It's quite another to wear the red-tinted specs 24/7 and ignore the fact that we haven't be able to compete in the market for the last couple of years......meanwhile, swallowing the most unbelievable spin from both Gill and SAF.

RFT/KLOOT has been banging the drum for some time; I've been one poster who has pretty much agreed with him all along.

Now it's time for everyone to wake up and smell the damned coffee. This is disgusting and it does not bode well for this coming season - we WILL NOT sign Moura, RVP, Modric, or anyone else.

We are screwed.

RED_SKY

Ralph, it's OUR club.

G.A.G.U.S

31 Jul 2012 07:01:29
So their colours have been nailed to the mast. Half the share sale will go to their own pockets. Do not let one Glazer apologist come on here and defend them and say them are not bleeding the club. I suspect this money the Glazers are taking out of the club is to pay towards the PIK replacement. Remember it was November 2010 when they paid them off with unknown funds. So the two year anniversary approaches. We dont know anything (they went to the most secretive place to do the deal) but the fact is they are taking a huge amount out of our club. If true and that is where the money is going it also gives a lie to those , Sydney included, who swore blind the PIKs were nothing to do with United. As I said at that time those debts may not be against the club but if the Glazers have to find money to pay them it would affect us. Ok it's speculation but even Andersred highlighted the potential and called them PIK2.

Well it appears everything some of us have been saying has come out to be true. The Glazer apologists should hang their heads in shame about this. No doubt Kloot will find a wifi connection in his holiday hotel but frankly if anyone on here cannot now see what the truth is I would be amazed. And to think someone on here asked what was the point of MUST.

Red Man

I agree Red Man. This is absolutely disgusting. I can just hope that this is a step towards them launching a full floatation and getting rid of these leaches that have been bleeding us dry.

REDFAITH

Red Man, the PIKs were nothing to do with the club just like the PIK2 are nothing to do with the club. Sadly the Glazers are within their rights to float as much of the club as they wish and they are entitled to use as much of the proceeds for whatever they want. I had expected they would take some for themselves, just hoped more would go towards the debt.

But I did maintain my opinion that the floatation had NOTHING to do with cashflow. Our cashflow is good, but this means nothing unless more of it is used for players and their salaries.

Sydney!

Also with them only taking 10%, could they continue to take 10% each time? Is this just stage one a club sale?

Sydney!

I am thinking Sydney is finally starting to realise his paymasters arnt as great for the club as he has been saying for years.
This day must have been your worst knightmare as you now have to admit that you have been wrong for the past 3 years.
Although the glazers probably gave you a heads up a few days ago so you can make up a good story on how you havent said for years that the pik debt wouldnt affect the club and how we have lots of money .and how the glazers arent ripping our club to pieces.

Please explain ,we are all waiting.

Ralph

Sydney

This is exactly what I have been saying

The PIK 1 or 2 are in the Glazers name but for some reason you will not acknowledge they will take money for themselves quite possibly to repay part of them. It doesn't matter if they are not in our name they are taking a massive amount out of the club now. I expect them to do another one in time certainly before 2017. The question is whether the value of the club will increase.

It won't if the team declines so lets expect some good news soon to try and placate a and deflect a few people from what they are doing

Red Man

As I have said before the issue isn't, have we got money its what is that money going to be used for.

on a different note i was looking at the post's from this time last year and it would seem a lot of people are changing there opinion on the glazers.
jred

Ralph
i wouldnt hold your breath
jred

Red Man, the PIKs are irrelevant as they can take money for ANY reason. Why is this so hard for you to understand? The PIKs are nothing to do with our club, just like the Malls and the Buccs are nothing to do with our club. They can take cash for ANY reason they want to, it's their cash and they are entitled to use it however they wish.

Sydney!

Ralph, Jred, I haven't learned anything new today. My opinion still remains the same. The Glazers are bad for our club, but I believe we will spend a decent amount of cash this summer just like we did last summer. Money is there for transfers, that is my point. Whether it's used for transfers remains to be seen, but last summer we spent a decent sum so why not this summer too?

Sydney!

Sydney

Yes they can take cash when they want like now. However there appears to me to be something hurried about this. Six weeks into the Chevrolet arrangement they are our new shirt sponsors, a day later the IPO is confirmed. To me the Andersred article about the PIK2 has some potential and the two year anniversary could explain why they have been in a hurry. We will never know but milestones like two years may require a payment. The PIK may have nothing to do with us but it can force their hand something you don't seem to want to acknowledge

Red Man

Red Man, I do understand what you are saying and I agree with both you and AG's theory, but the $125m is just money they would have received in the future when we were sold. Hopefully it's the start of a sale. The Glazers never had any intention of improving our cashflow to be able to compete IMO. Our cashflow is better than it's ever been under them. They were trying to manipulate investors by using the fans worries that we cannot compete. It didn't work.

I am also not convinced this IPO will take off either mate and Drasdo believes if they fail in this attempt then they may listen to offers for the club. According to Drasdo the Qataris were very interested in buying us, but the Glazers priced us out of the sale. Lets wait and see.

Sydney!

31 Jul 2012 03:01:27
if Fergie says he is bringing in 2 players and doesnt his team will slowly be deteriorating just like the once MIGHTY ARSENAL who Wenger thought it was only his tactics,good budget and intelligence that made them win trophies and each time a key player left they really never replaced him,players like Viera;Ashley Cole;Petit;Pires were replaced by the so called upcoming youth just like Fergie is doing and year by year we will support him until City retains the league or Chelsea steal it away from us again and we begin to compete to finish in top 4 with teams like liverpool,newcastle and tottenham......,a position that isnt what we are supposed to be and thats the reason why Arsenal are struggling to keep their best players who also desire frotune and silverware,so SAF should be serious this time around and get all the weak points in our team covered,thus have players who deliver not players whom we know that when push comes to shove they will never deliver or match the opponents like Barca......,and soon ROONEY will be frustrated and ask to leave and we will join Arsenal in the struggle of keeping our best players because our Mnagers think they own the market so they should get players cheap at all times......NO.....,guys we need players are top class who deliver at all and in all circumstances without fail,players who when opponents gaze lose the battle before even they have kicked the ball just like Real Madrid,Barcelona,Man City and now Chelsea are going torwards that route...,i believe there are some teams we shouldnt struggle to beat and we should clobber when we meet....,so guys lets not allow these old glazers instill a mind in us that will make us realise that we are no longer the real RED DEVILS after we have already fallen like Arsenal,now Wenger is trying by all means to bring in top players but he is stiill losing top class players......,If we are in the market for a striker lets us bring in a top striker likev Ruud,Yorke,Cole and let go those who aint perfoming please no fringe or average players that will make our strikeforce ordinary....,IF WE are to bring a midfielder lets bring in a top performer than to rely on fringe average players like we doing now and thats why end up bringing back our retired stars and each time we meet Brca they dicipline us properly WHY? because Cleverly or Anderson is not the kind of player to go head to head with the Barca midfield and so you will see Valencia and Carrick playing a lone battle and after all we expect Chicharito or WELBECK to beat top defenders when in actual fact they need a rooney beside them....NO....then they are in the wrong squad,we need firing cylindr strikers who even in the absence of another still burn the opposition defence.......