Manchester United Banter Archive October 03 2018

03 Oct 2018 19:45:03
Into the breach I go and this may not be popular. Right now it seems nearly everyone wants the head of the manager, yet I think people are not looking at the bigger picture. It's like an itch from a bite that you can't cope any more and just want to scratch, get rid of it, it is pain, a frustration that you want to end. The issue is that when you scratch it, the problem is still there, it will heal eventually but meanwhile there will still be more pain. Sack Mourinho seems the answer to some but what is left?

The club has no obvious strategy, or plan. If there was, how could the answers be Moyes, LvG or even Mourinho to follow LvG or to buy players we have at times without any obvious strategic aim? Has the manager bought the players or were they the type of player the managers identified and the cheaper option was chosen or were they shiny media money spinners to encourage sponsors?
This mess has been years in the making, yet people think a quick sacking will resolve it. In will step a knight in shining armour and all will be ok again. Except this isn't a movie.
I don't know how many people have actually been a manager in difficult times but in a mess like this a manager needs to lead, to be a leader, make tough difficult decisions and not stand for any nonsense. Thinking of the bear pit any new manager would walk into, how many of the shiny new coaches could be a leader? We seem to lack leadership from the owners and Woodward, it also looks like they put the manager in his place, undermined his power in summer, reducing him to feeling a coach not a manager. That will almost certainly have weakened Mourinho's position, or any leaders position and it could easily have contributed to the rise of player power. Player power, interesting, we seem to lack leaders on the pitch as well. There seems to be one leader who actually knows what it takes to win something and yet he is under the most pressure

To me this is the wrong time to sack the manager, there is more to fix first.

{Ed025's Note - im afraid that insect bite has become a massive boil on the arse of united red man, the only cure is to cut out the infection before it creates a disease that is incurable, the gangrenous one has infected those around him now and it will become terminal unless action is taken pronto mate..

03 Oct 2018 20:05:51
Bit extreme ed025. Very OTT.

{Ed025's Note - i have never been a shrinking violet angel and am not about to start now mate..

03 Oct 2018 20:21:42
Waaaahhhh! Daddy didn't buy me the new toys I wanted, so I'm going to break the ones I've got!

03 Oct 2018 20:58:35
I believe Ed0025 is an Everton fan, I like Everton and have told the story that in 85 I was one who, with utter respect, chanted Everton, Everton to Peter Reid and co at Wembley. However, with respect, the situation at United is volatile and emotive right now so being told by Ed0025 how we should treat our manager does not sit well with me. I totally respect the Ed’s but in this case would ask whether we can have United supporting Ed who allows free discussion without an angle against the manager. Is there a United supporting Ed?

{Ed025's Note - yes ED004, i have no angle against the manager red man only a view as a neutral, but your wish i will respect and keep out of it mate..

03 Oct 2018 21:08:42
I don't like how this situation is framed as an either or situation.

Either you think sacking mourinho will solve all our issues or we have deep rooted issues top to bottom at the club.

Either we back the manager or give into player power and feed the egos of the spoilt brats we have for players.

The reality as ever is in the middle, we most definitely have structural issues that the club are trying to solve (lets face it the glazers and woodward are here as long as they want to be)

We have players who are conspiring against the manager and when he goes they should probably follow.

But mourinho has self destructed by himself, no one made him dig his players out in the media to the point that they no longer want to play for him.

No one made him play an inexperienced academy midfielder at centre back in a back three against west ham when bailly was available.

No one made mourinho play an average spanish midfielder at centre back in a back three against spurs when bailly was available.

No one makes him play both fellaini and matic in midfield every game when its clear in some games we need more mobility and creativity (fred, pereira or mata were available) .

We had a pretty good thing going into january 2018 but then we signed sanchez and mourinho decided to go to war with some of his main players. He has brought a lot of this onto himself.

03 Oct 2018 21:21:55
Good post DSG.

03 Oct 2018 21:29:40
Time to show him the door with his big pay off, we’d have more chance of positivity around the club if we had Karl Pilkington as manager .

03 Oct 2018 21:36:23
I love yr posts redman I genuinely respect yr views and you talk a lot of sense, I get your dislike of the owners and the board and think I understand it but if we are tenth and getting pezzled off West ham and Brighton and dumped out of a cup off Derby county at home and it's ok then maybe we should just get my mam in as manager, yr defending the indefensible if Moyes achieved the very same results how much slack would u cut him.

03 Oct 2018 21:34:42
As i understand, it's a banter site = people on here speak about other managers and Eds views are just as good as any one else - keep posting.

04 Oct 2018 00:34:31
For me I'd like to see ed 025 involved in this page a bit more
A gentleman with an honest view.
Can give it and take it the banter
And gives a straight view about Everton as well.

04 Oct 2018 04:04:12
I really don't understand the whole player power mustn't win argument. Also you can blame glazers as much as you want Redman it isn't their fault that Mourinho failed.

Mourinho clearly doesn't have a clue what he is doing.

This summer he wanted a 70mn cb to replace the 70mn cb's he himself bought and doesn't trust over smalling or jones. A 100mn mf was targetted to replace a 89mn mf he doesn't have a clue how to use. He has already replaced his failed 30mn playmaker signing with a winger we are paying 500k and wanted another winger because he didn't think through the simple point that we needed a rw and he bought someone for the left.

His striker who is generally his most important part of his attack can't hold up the ball or get involved in building attacks both of which are basic requirements of his style of football.

Only reason Mourinho has failed is because he has failed to adapt to football currently played, being completely clueless about what he wants to do and his unbelievable ability of pissing of the very people his job depends on.

03 Oct 2018 22:32:01
A bit harsh on ed025 RM. He is a great man for the banter and takes most views on board. He never minds when you disagree with him and treats us all with equal respect mate.

03 Oct 2018 22:55:01
Since when did we start picking and choosing which Ed's we wanted to have a say on things? It's not North Korea, where no dissenting voices are allowed. Ed025, you're welcome on here any time, mate. Always good for a laugh.

04 Oct 2018 06:39:26
That’s a bit out of order Red Man. Ed025 may be neutral but to me that makes his view even more relevant, United fans have extreme views at both ends of the spectrum so an unemotional intelligent neutral view is very welcome for me.

As for your point, I made a similar point recently about deeper rooted issues but right now, as predicted, our identity is being gradually destroyed and we are becoming a club I don’t like.

As DSG said, we were doing ok up to Vhristmas last year when for some unfathomabke reason we signed Sanchez. Big name, big reputation, no fee, stop Vity getting him, who knows why we signed him but for me that is when it started sliding.

Then we finish as runners up, add a Brazilian midfielder and yet this year we look a shadow of last years side. Public criticism of so many players, bizarre selections, a face like a smacked arse, constant whining, Mourinho is on a self destruct mission right now.

The Anager is the leader, he sets the agenda, creates the culture, and the culture we have right now is not great. We have players who are not good enough (not as many as some say) and we have players with the wrong attitude and they need shipping out. But that doesn’t chnage the fact that Mourinho is not the right man for our club. He was never a good fit and is doing everything possible to prove at the moment,

04 Oct 2018 09:17:45
I'm with Tony on this Red man. Asking Ed025 to stay out of a discussion is out of order. The Ed's work really hard to run this site and their views are/ should always be welcome. I don't agree with all of the Ed's views but I appreciate them.

I feel if Ed025's view supported your point you would have been happy to have him involved in the discussion.

You say how emotive the whole manager debate gets amoungst United fans yet you don't want to hear a neutral view point.

For what it's worth I can see both sides of the argument. There is a lot more wrong at our club atm than just Jose. There is a total lack of leadership and direction coming from all areas of the club from the top down.

At the start of the week I totally agreed that now is not the time to sack Jose. Especially if that means appointing someone like Zidane or Conte on a permanent basis with no sort of long/ medium term plan in place. That will only exasperate problems in the long term.

However, I can also see how toxic this whole situation is becoming and that is becoming an issue in itself.

Unless the club can get a run of good results over the next couple of weeks I wonder how long and how to if this situation could become. Clearly there is a divide in the dressing room and Jose is at the centre of it. However, the longer this goes on the larger the divide will become. That divide has players on both sides, players who will still be here after the manager is sacked and players who will have to work together afterwards as well.

Unless the team can get some good results soon Jose will have to go. My only hope is that the club decide to put McKenna and Carrick in charge until the end of the season so the club can hopefully sort out a DoF and properly plan our next full time managerial appointment.

04 Oct 2018 09:48:21
The non-Man Utd supporting Eds are one of my favourite things about these pages. Ed001 with his irrefutable common sense (and top class daily articles), Ed007 and his stinging Glasgow wit, Ed025 and his unbiased neutrality, amongst others. And all highly valued opinions. It's not like any of the Eds ever come on here and throw out a toxic insult or 2. Right? So please continue to contribute, inform, challenge, and entertain Eds. Thanks.

{Ed001's Note - cheers Johnny. Even though Ed025 has terrible taste in football teams, I am surprised anyone could want him to not be involved in a discussion. It is very rare he and I agree on anything, he likes yawnfests like golf and cricket, I find them boring, he is a blue, I am a red etc etc, but I really enjoy what he has to say anyway. He is a genuinely nice guy with an interesting take on things.}

04 Oct 2018 10:40:39
JohnnyKills, i agree. Its better to get a different perspective aswell.
All the EDs make a great contribution to the site.
ED002 providing valuable information on the ins/ outs of football clubs etc.

04 Oct 2018 11:08:07
So glad the majority have stuck up for ed025, a fantastic guy who we love on the Arsenal page, he’s not afraid to say how he sees it and has a fabulous sense of humour.

Most importantly he would never intentionally upset anyone.

04 Oct 2018 14:23:13
Spot on ed025, he should have been sacked long ago.

04 Oct 2018 12:40:09
You are always welcome here ed025.

{Ed025's Note - cheers park..

04 Oct 2018 14:03:28
I understand ed25, would go against you to change mate.

{Ed025's Note - ta angel, i might just sit off united for a while mate until we see how things change..

04 Oct 2018 17:49:10
This page would be a lot more miserable than it already is without ed 0025 and ed 001 I am very thankful that even though they support other clubs ( crap ones 😘) they still come on here with their views and valuable tidbits of info .

{Ed025's Note - nice one deano, i love the banter on united mate you are all nice guys but im not here to upset anyone so i will take a bit of time out for a while..

04 Oct 2018 20:36:27
Ed0025

My apologies, I would not want you to stay off the page so hope you will reconsider that position immediately.

I am not enjoying the football of Mourinho, who is, but I have said on here for years about what the problems have been and that has been from the very top. Personally I don’t support Mourinho, I support the club, however I just think that dismissing the manager now is not good timing, especially when he was undermined in summer. As a senior manager I have been undermined in the past and until it happens to you you don’t realise the impact. It isn’t just your own position it is your team and how they view your authority so I have some empathy for our manager. With his money I would have walked unless I really loved what I was doing. We have no plan or strategy so a sacking will likely see the same mistakes made and another fancy name brought in. Meanwhile the same players most who have been a constant in these difficult poor years get away with it.
Slate asked how much slack would I have given Moyes, well the answer was none because he had won nothing, there was nothing on his CV to suggest he could manage United.
I have a lot of time for Everton and feel our clubs have always have a good connection so would ask you to keep editing and go easy on me!

{Ed025's Note - dont beat yourself up over it red man i often take a break from the sites mate, im a closet united fan so usually edit when there is a build up of posts as i like the banter with the fans who are a really good bunch, the jose subject is very touchy at the moment and i can see how high feelings are running so maybe my two penneth was inopportune, but just like arnie....i will be back.. :)

04 Oct 2018 22:12:19
Make sure you come back ed. I enjoy your posts. Your good for the old laugh as well.

05 Oct 2018 01:32:22
Well stone redman many a post written in haste. 👍 Top man ed025.

{Ed001's Note - I can't believe he claimed the closet he was in was as a United supporter, we all knew that long ago, there was nothing closet about it. After all, once a blue always a Manc right? Just ask Rooney.....}

05 Oct 2018 13:16:40
I knew it ed0025! If it's any consolation mate I have a soft spot for the better half of Liverpool too 🤣.

{Ed025's Note - well we are the "peoples club" deano.. :)

03 Oct 2018 18:13:42
If its true that the players aren't playing for Jose I could understand it as he has obviously fallen out with so many- not that I condone it of course.

But where does that leave Carrick and McKenna who are by all accounts popular with the players, they work day to day with them wouldn't the players think they owe Carrick and McKenna good perfomances as Jose would be gone at end of season anyway probably?

03 Oct 2018 14:04:50
I have to say I posted in anger last night, all change I stated, having slept on it I honestly don't know what I want or what is best to get isn't out of this.
On one hand it looks like United are looking for a DoF to work well with JM, that suggests the club backs him and likely will sell the troublemakers in the dressing room.
On the other hand it is JM that says what our style of play is and it isn't what the fans want or is happy with at all.
Are we to believe that if a director came in and Pogba etc was to leave things will get better? Perhaps off the pitch they will which leaves the age old argument are we actually happy watching this football, no I don't think many of us are, if off the field antics correct themselves will we start challenging? That remains to be seen.
Furthermore is JM likely to stay for a long period of time, if we look at his past it suggests not unless JM, the club know different.
Either way, what's comes out of this the most is us as fans of MU want to see a better standard of football with a direction and I'm sure most of us could put up with a few years of not winning the big trophies as it comes together, at this time us fans don't see a direction.
So I finish my post as I started it, I don't know what or where to start.

03 Oct 2018 14:18:55
Welsh, the comments he's making are utterly ridiculous. He's an embarrassment to our club. Also, his selections are bordering on madness. He plays Mctominay, a central midfielder in central defence, we lose 3-1, he then praises him endlessly (! ) Then drops him from the team for next match. I think Mctominay was shocking, but why say he was our best player, then drop him for the next match. Its baffling.
Scholes has never been a Mourinho fan, but all ex players are saying the same, Rio and hargreaves were attacking him. And non of the other ex players (apart from G. Neville) have got one good word to say about him. Are they all wrong?

03 Oct 2018 17:42:08
I know it’s a ridiculous thought but it’s as if he is trying to get himself sacked. Alienating players, odd selections, you’d think he doesn’t want to be here.

03 Oct 2018 19:20:30
Ajh it could be argued on the face of it that jose is doing that. Personally i don't believe that is the case.
What i would like to see happen is different.
If the manager is being undermined by a certain group of players then dump them into the reserve's like he did with bastian and drive on without them.
The money men might object to that course of action due to it devaluing the players but for me its the way to go.
If you slagged your boss off on social media and in the press just see how long you last working for him.
I am very old school in this regard. Its the management style i preferred as a player and as an employee and its the style i Prefer and encourage as an employer.
Some people are employed to make decisions others are employed to follow orders and procedures.
Its up to the board to continually monitor and review those orders and procedures and to consult all parties and take an objective view on their opinions and to alter or change procedures to match market demands or for a variety of other reasons. But once those decisions are made you back your manager to get the job done and give him the autonomy to get the job done.
Do the job your paid to do the way you are being asked to do it until your told otherwise or leave and do a different job elsewhere.
If jose has the autonomy he should have then he should cut a few loose like he did with bastian and drive on.
If the club feel that that's something they can't live with then fire him.
Too much pandering to players who have too much to say while they continually fail to perform some of the most basic standards you would expect from a professional.
The same can and should and will be said of jose. If his boss feels he is not doing it he will be fired.

As you know i think the problem lies as much at the feet of the players as it does with the manager.
Is jose doing a good job? Not this season.
Last season given the squad we have i felt 2nd was a big over achievement. I don't believe any other manager would have got this group to 2nd.
On the other hand there is probably dozens of managers who would have them playing a more attractive style.
Pogba can be a very good player so can martial and I've no issue if they go on to be stars elsewhere its what they do here that counts and they do nothing to warrent their status as top players.
Do many of us believe that a new manager can turn valencia young rojo jones lindelof mata herrera lingard darmian into title contenders.
The first thing pep would do is want to shift 90% of that lot plus he wouldn't have lukaku or smalling near his team because of their teckers.

I don't know what will happen in the next few weeks.
I find it impossible to defend the manager on so many points but i find it hard to defend many of the players on even more counts.

Its time for jose to make his move dump the trouble makers (in his view) if the club can't live with it then fire him. Doing nothing is the worst thing that can happen for all parties.

{Ed025's Note - you can blame the players all you want ken but in the end the buck stops at the manager, the fact is that jose has lost the dressing room and are not playing for him, a lot of these are good international class players and the reason they are not performing is that they dont believe in the system and are not enjoying playing for one of the biggest clubs in the world due to the manager, i hate player power as much as you mate but only jose has the power to do something about it by dropping the under performers or if not resigning...good post though..

03 Oct 2018 19:48:07
Good post Ken, it's got to be one or the other, the players or the manager doing nothing is cowardly and just letting the fire burn. Sooner or later it will just consume everything if it's not stopped in its tracks.

03 Oct 2018 19:52:13
Hi ed025.
Im not just blaming the players i thought i had made that clear i lay they blame equally.
I agree its time for jose to make his move do what he wants to do and cut the trouble makers loose bastian style. If the board can't live with that then they have to fire him.
But when they fire him it won't be problem solved it will be one of the problems solved mate. Anybody that thinks jose is the only problem then they are very much mistaken?
Do you honestly think that our squad is not short at least 6 players if they want a sustained title challenge ed025? No matter who the manager?
As i said lots could have us playing more attractive football for sure but if the likes of fellaini jones herrera young valencia darmian rojo have to play more than a dozen games in the league we won't compete win the league. They have proved that under 3 managers now most of them. They wouldn't get near city pool or spurs line ups and for good reason.

{Ed025's Note - thats very true ken and is why i think the glazers have a lot to answer for, they have employed managers who are at best second tier who they hoped would succeed on the cheap, united are one of the biggest and richest clubs on the planet yet have not replaced fergie with someone who was top tier, even jose was on the way down when he was employed and has been on a downward arc for the past few years, yes some players have cost big money but they have been bought for the wrong reasons to appease the supporters and keep the turnstiles turning every week and the tills in the club shop clicking, for christs sake go for the best manager and pay whatever you have to pay to get him and start again from scratch, let him get rid of the players who are wasting everybodys time and lets get the old united back mate, thats my rant over..

03 Oct 2018 23:14:43
Bearing in mind that the reality is that it is totally unrealistic to expect six or seven of the current first team squad to be culled in the next few weeks or months because a) the transfer window is shut b) getting takers for all won't be so easy and c) getting in too top replacements will be even harder may I suggest something radical. Why don't the team and manager sit down together, air their differences in private and resolve to start with a clean slate. The other thing I would suggest whilst knowing there is no chance of it ever happening is that the players and manager should be forced to meet some of us the fans face to face in a small room so that they can really understand how much it hurts us to watch this shambles and the infighting.

03 Oct 2018 12:47:36
If Jose is to go, I don't think it will be until after the City game.

We have a tough run of games coming up with Chelsea, City and Juve twice as well a stoughish games against the likes of Everton.

Would it be wise to throw a new manager in against these clubs and risk a poor start to his tenure or do you think the board are giving Jose enough rope to hang himself?

03 Oct 2018 13:00:42
100% throw a new guy in now. What's the point of having a manager that has us playing so bad against weak opposition every week against the big guns? New guy can motivate players, lift them for these tricky fixtures and learn a lot about his squad in time for the Jan window.

Just waiting is weak and will likely worsen the damage - our club has been too pacifist for too long, time for some serious action - bring back the passion. Just imagine how motivated the fans will be alone if we have a new manager hired that says and tries the right things from the get-go, we need our heart back.

03 Oct 2018 13:14:10
The thing is Beast, if a new manager were to come in immediately and then we were to extend our losing streak - which is quite possible given our upcoming fixtures - then the fans will be on his back immediately.
He could be on a hiding to nothing within the first half a dozen games - not exactly the start anyone would want.
Its all well and good people saying bring in x, y or z now and he "will have my full backing" - but we all know in reality that won't quite be the case.
The "I want it now" brigade will be baying for blood within a fortnight.

03 Oct 2018 15:01:01
Betty - I don't think our fans will be on his back if he has a slow start to be honest. I understand what you mean, but I think the majority of our fans are so desperate to see any green shoots of recovery there will be a lot of rope for the next guy. Ultimately Jose has benefited massively from following LVG and Moyes, the next guy has to be the right one because patience is one thing we have had to learn.

I want it now brigade are pretty much lost. I just want to see us get back on the right track, we are heading to a cliff edge now.

03 Oct 2018 15:40:38
That's my thinking Betty. If Jose can't motivate the players for the upcoming games then I think he's shot, it then leads to a new manager who we can be doing due diligence on now if we have not already a better less pressurised beginning to his tenure.

03 Oct 2018 16:01:30
Why sacrifice these games on a guy we know isn't capable of motivating the players though? Surely better for somebody fresh to come in and lift things!

05 Oct 2018 13:02:08
I'm sure youve said Beast but who would you bring in to replace Mourinho?

03 Oct 2018 11:28:14
Move on to the Newcastle game now guys. Another team who are all over but always seem to up their game against us! We must have pace up front particularly against yedlin and dummet we can get something with rash and martial. There danger comes from shelvey if given time and Rondon who is a big lad and could bully our cb . Sincerely hoping we can get 3 points, especially as I'm surrounded by bloody geordies!

03 Oct 2018 11:55:29
I don’t think teams necessarily up their game against us anymore. Simply a case that our strategy of sitting deep when not in possession allows the opposition to play football. When you give a team time and space of the ball, they’re bound to look better than usual.

03 Oct 2018 12:25:08
Totally agree Danny.

03 Oct 2018 12:32:48
And when you attack with minimal numbers in predictable ways, it's obvious for intelligent managers to combat it. I imagine very few of us would put money on us beating Newcastle speak volumes for me.

03 Oct 2018 13:42:13
pointless having pace on the pitch if we play so negative.

we have pace all over but never play the type of football to take advantage of it.

03 Oct 2018 14:36:15
Danny - if the geordies round here are to be believed it is the pinnacle to their season- still stuck in 1996 -'I'd luv it if we beat them, luv it"
Must admit I have an alter reason to be optimistic - I have managed to get tickets to take my 10 year old to his first home game.

03 Oct 2018 09:07:36
On a positive note, CBJ scored 2 goals for Scunny last night.

03 Oct 2018 03:22:40
So, doing the rounds on the world wide wait is the trully scary report via some italian bloggers (hot of the press from their contacts in the italian media! ) that along with 'zizi', a name being mumbled about is none other than antonio conte! (i think i got that first vowel right? ), yes, that kind hearted, open-minded, easy going, player sympathetic listener himself is being mentioned in dispatches, talk about spite on contes' side! -i still say bring in wenger, and have hoddle working alongside, with gary neville overseeing defensive duties, if the choice is that or conte, surely its a no-brainer? -and one side note, i reckon wenger would get a tune out of pogba and martial, not to mention more of a chance attracting french and european players to come to united for footballing reasons rather than bounty hunters (and yes, other brands of confectionary are available) -and for those who say not wenger-ex-gonner etc, the same should have applied when mourinho joined then, being ex-chavski, and all the times he slated this club., at least with wenger the style of football would be half decent.

03 Oct 2018 06:42:09
I don’t know where to start. Wenger was a great Manager and might have been a good fit ten years ago. Not sure what makes you think Hoddle will offer anything, he has been out of the game for a very long time. As for Neville, being a pundit on Tv does not make you a great coach.

03 Oct 2018 07:16:55
I’d give Eddie Howe a go. A risk granted, but young, hungry . British manager getting a small club like Bournemouth playing some lovely attacking football on a shoe string budget. At least he wants to play football the right way.

03 Oct 2018 08:07:18
Keep Jose and bring in a new assistant manager because this one isn't up to the task . Send for Roy Keane that will stop all the whingeing 😆😆.

03 Oct 2018 08:16:45
I'm with you Stand. I don't believe it's too big a risk with Howe, as you say plays football the right way, and I doubt you would have to pay him the silly money we are paying Jose or would have to pay Zidane.

03 Oct 2018 08:20:35
Stand have you watched much of Bournmouth's fast attacking football.
They play with 10 or 11 men behind the ball for the majority of games have less possession than the opposition just about every week.
They don't play from the back and they are dire to watch.
He has a very big budget and none of his players are being chased by better teams.
Not the right man at all for me he would be gone on 18 months imo.

03 Oct 2018 09:04:21
I said Wenger in the summer as a joke although he does tick a lot of the Woodward boxes. Free, used to working on a budget and signing young unknowns who can be sold on for a profit and can scrape 4th place. Doesn't mean i'd actually want to ser him though. And I think Woodward would be after a big name to cover his latest failed appointment.

03 Oct 2018 12:33:58
Just because a manager is free, that doesn't mean we should hire them. We should be looking for the best manager we can find, even if it costs us a transfer fee/ compensation. If and when we are looking for a manager, we should approach it no different to if we are looking for a player. Draw up a list of 5, ask everyone and get knocked back and then settle for what we have.