Manchester United Banter Archive September 04 2012

04 Sep 2012 23:00:02
the pist below with SAF, Gill, etc. is the best i've read in a while! haha. we need more like that to cheet this place up! The Moon.

The first sir Alex ferguson was myself, happy to be of use :)

Clayton Blackmore was genius whoever came up with that!

GDS

Haha, I just thought the whole thing was genius!

Well done GDS and co!

The Moon.

04 Sep 2012 21:15:58
Right lets crack open this midfield debate.

First off it is impossible to replace Scholes with a like for like as there simply isn't anyone out there. If we tried to find someone who is in the Scholes mould then we'd end up with a poor mans Scholes.

Did Real Madrid sign someone who was like Zidane to replace him? Did Juventus sign someone like Nedved to replace him? Did AC Milan sign someone like Kaka to replace him? The answer is no no and no.

When a great players time is up and you need to replace them you need to find someone else who can be as good but in a slightly different set up.

When Scholes came on against Southampton he changed the game but only as we changed our system to suit him. When Scholes came on we went 442 and the game changed. If we want to continue with 442 then we need someone like Scholes, but they won't be as good as him so we will have a weaker team.

So what i'm getting at is Scholes "replacement" may not actually play anything like Scholes.

Now i'll move onto my second point. There is an element of fans who are far too quick to jump on a players back and proclaim him not good enough or my pet hate "not united class". Everyone has a bad day at the office from time to time or even a bad patch that doesn't mean they are not good enough.

Where i'm going with this is the recent hate for Tom Cleverley simply because he wasn't brilliant against Southampton. Now this is a lad who's only playing about his 20th game for us, and in most of those games he's been impressive. I mean give the lad a chance. Scholes had bad games when he was 23 but he didn't turn out too bad did he. And he didn't dominate games at that age either. Xavi and Iniesta didn't look world class until they were 26/27 and they weren't regulars for Barca until they were 23/24.

Cleverley will be a main stay in our midfield. So we need to look at how to get the best out of him. He looked his best alongside Anderson so what qualities is it that Anderson brought that got the best out of him. Anderson likes to drive forward from midfield and push the the play further up the pitch, in doing this he creates space for Cleverley to work in enabling him to find people with his passing. It's also Cleverley's quick one two's which release Anderson. So the combination works.

The only down side to it was neither Anderson or Cleverley are great defensively and we were prone to being caught on the break. This can be easily solved by moving to a fromation which allows us an extra player either in defence making it a back three who will give cover for the midfield or by playing and out and out DM who will mop up and shield the defence and drop back into it if needed to clear a danger.

So with Anderson not being fit most of the time and not being good enough defensively for this midfield to work we need a great box to box player who is strong defensively but able to offer something when futher forward and have a strong enough technique so as to be able to keep the ball.

The best three players i can see for this role are:

Sami Khedira, his strong running and ability going forward are matched by his strength in defence. Being a few years older than Cleverley will be useful as he can guide him through games much as Keane guided Scholes though his early games. But could we prise him away from Madrid?

Kwadwo Asamoah, i've always liked this kid. He's typical african with his strength powerful runnings and his never tire engine but he has a much more cultured technique then you would expect from an african player and his vision and passing are very good. Unfortunately he's just moved to Juventus and i expect he'll be great for them, maybe we could use Nani as bait if Juventus are still interested.

Axel Witsel, has all the attributes we would need but has just moved to Zenit and for a huge fee. I think that rules him out now.

If i was to take more of a gamble then i'd go for Moussa Sissoko. He hasn't been his best over the last season but he has all the ability and skill required to be a top player. He could be a cheaper option as he hasn't been at his best but like i said it is more of a gamble.

Don't be suprised if the player we get is Hector Herrera though. I like him but feel we'd definately need a DM as he is quite lightweight.

These are the players we need to replace Scholes. In a new system with new tactic's they could go on to have the same kind of success.

Now depending on how we are gonna line up with either 3 at the back or 3 in midfield will have an influance on whether we need to sign a DM or not. If we are to play a three man midfield then a DM would be needed but if we were to have three at the back then we wouldn't need one.

If we were to sign a DM then the player i like most for this role is Sandro, he is great at reading the game and being in the right place to tidy up and his passing is the best i've seen from a true DM.

This means we'd line up either like this:

______________DDG
______Smalling_Vidic_Evans
Valencia_Cleverley_Asamoah_Buttner
_____________Kagawa
_________Rooney___RVP

Or like this:


____________DDG
_______Smalling__Vidic
Valencia_____Sandro____Buttner
_______Cleverley_Asamoah
___________Kagawa
_______Rooney____RVP

The width would come from the wing backs with cover from either the DM or extra CB. Cleverley would be able to play his pass and move with a high energy player like Asamoah providing the trust from midfield. Kagawa is in his best position able to inter link with Cleverley and Asamoah behind him and Rooney and RVP in front of him or play it out to the wings with Valencia and Buttner. Rooney and RVP can link up with each other and Kagawa and cause so much trouble for teams that they would be afraid to push forward.

This is a modern line up and tactics to fit in to how football is played atm. It also gets the best out of the players we have and can be achieved with only one or two signings.

Let me know what you think.


Shappy {Ed007's Note - You forgot to mention someone I think......

Really? who? lol.

Shappy

Wingers with overlapping fullbacks make football far more fun :)

DodgyBanter

I agree with the need for someone to complement Cleverly. But finding that type of player would be difficult. If only there was a young energetic midfielder, perhaps born in Glasgow but playing international football for another country, established in the EPL, who had experience playing alongside Cleverly who could be bought for a relatively cheap price. But that's just fantasy.

Danny Pughnited

What a load of rubbish. There are lots of players in Spanish German or Portuguese leagues who can be as good as Scholesy.
We just need to buy them! Moutinho is a good example.

Good post ad I agree with the type of player you mentioned. If Cleverly can pull some strings in terms of pass-and-move then it would be good to compliment that with a powerful player who can drive the ball forward. Do you not think we could cope with just Clev + Khedeira (for argument's sake) though in a 4231 formation? A bit like City play with just Barry and Yaya in there

If Cleverly proves himself as good enough to be a regular starter I wouldn't mind seeing this lineup:

__________GK_________
RB_____CB___CB_____LB
____K'deira___Cleverly___
RWF______CAM______LWF
__________ST__________

RWF = Valencia, Nani, Young
CAM = Rooney, Kagawa
LWF = Nani, Kagawa, Young, Wellbeck
ST = RVP, Rooney, Wellbeck, Hernandez

Gav

Gav, we could but I think our current "full backs" are more like wing backs and as such spend more time.pushing forward rather than defending. This is why Evra and Rafael get caught out of position so often. This is why I feel we are best off playing them in their best position, as wing backs. But this requires having someone else covering for counter attacks, this is why i've added a DM or an extra CB. If your playing with wing backs then its pointless having wingers as they both play in the same space. Plus our best three attacking players are Rooney RVP and Kagawa, so it makes sense to play a system that allows them to all play in their best positions.

As for the unamed fool who thinks their are loads of players equal to Scholes, your really are clueless. Scholes is the best player of his generation, and there won't be a player that is his equal for a long time. We may find a player who has one or two of Scholes' qualities but we won't find anyone as good or with as many qualities as Scholes.

Shappy

Scholes has been a very good player indeed, a wonderful player of his type. However the best players of the Generation are Messi and Ronaldo who are up there with the best there has ever been. We will replace Scholes as we have replaced other top players and we will move on. It may take time given our reticence in the transfer market but the player that does a job will play differently to Scholes. I am sure I will be abused for saying that the players of this generation and standing above all others are Ronaldo and Messi but has Scholes won Englands player or Europes or World player of the year? He has been a really top top player who has had individual accolades befitting his play but never voted for by masses.

Red Man

Just because he hasn't been recognised by the masses doesn't mean he isn't the best. His quiet characther and demenour means he doesn't attract attention like other players. I would also argue that as he is 10-15 years older than Ronaldo and Messi that he isn't in the same generation. Although I do agree that they are on a level of their own. Talant wise Scholes is still a.match for Xavi and Iniesta, it's just he hasn't got the fitness of players ten years his junior.

All the top player tell you that Scholes is the best player they've played against. In my life time only Ronaldo has been a more talented ayer for us. And imo opinion Scholes is the third best player to ever wear the United shirt, behind only Ronaldo and Best. And you think that he'll be easy to replace? If he is so easy to replace then name me ten players of his quality who we could sign.

Shappy

The thing is the transfer window is shut and secondly fergie has shown no inculcation of playing either formation
jred

Shappy

I did not say he would be easier to replace but we have replaced greats when they have left before and will again. Pe

People wailed we could never replace Cantona but we did however a CM will come along who will be different to Scholes.

Scholes has been a tremendous player but third best I am not sure given we have had Law, Charlton, Best Edwards, Cantona, Keane etc. I am not underestimating Scholes but Ronaldo is another level

Red Man

Redman and others stating Scholes is not in the top players to ever play for United here are some stats from four of the best CM to play whilst I have been alive:

Scholes
Games: 569
Goals: 154
Assists: 136

gerrard
Games: 556
Goals: 142
Assists: 83

Xavi
Games: 557
Goals: 63
Assists: 67

Zidane
Games: 734
Goals: 148
Assists: 50

(All these stats are to the best of my research so if they are wrong i apologize but i have searched a number of sites to get these)

as you can see he is a brilliant player and better than those been lauded with the 'greatest ever' tag for their respective clubs yet you lot can't say he was in our top 3 or 5 or 10.

Paso

Shappy - I see your point abous us playing fullbacks like wingbacks. My preference would still be to play 4231 but to do that we'd need to buy a LB to replace Evra who can both defend and attack - Baines would have been good - and make Rafael work hard on his defensive rashness in training!

Gav

If we had more cover in the middle from either a DM or an extra CB then our Wing backs don't have to be as good defensively as someone is there to cover them when they're out of position. I think Rafael can be a great full back or a world class wing back, Evra was a wing back but we played him as a full back and Buttner is more a wing back as well. I think they would be great as they are in the wing back role but would need to work more on their defending if they are to play as full backs.

Shappy

04 Sep 2012 20:05:13
Would love to see a fliud 4-3-3 line up against Wigan next week, something like this:

DDG
Rafa_____Evans___Vidic____Buttner

_____Ando____Kags___Clev_____

__ Val_______RVP_______Nani

In theory we could dominate possession, aswell as defend effectively, as Wigan do not have the most powerful midfield or attacking options in terms of strength, we are pretty much set for goals!

-Viva la Kagawa (Newbie)

It is dissapointing the way DDG has been vilified almost for one mistake in a so far very good seasons start. For you to put him as the corner flag however is an utter disgrace!
Invisible STuey

Welcome VLK!

Would rather see (with same team):

________DDG
RAF__Evans__Vida__Butt
Toni__Clevs__Ando__Nani
________Kags
________RVP

then play with new formations once the job is done.

Valencia will just hug the touch line and therefore makes any fluid formation impossible. After watching last week I am resigned to that being all he can do. Albeit pretty well.

I'd be surprised if Carrick, Scholes, Giggs or some other elderly statesman isn't drafted into the team tho.

(LOL finally ground down by everyone's negativity!)

DodgyBanter

04 Sep 2012 19:26:35
how come we never try a 442 diamond shape with someone probably carrick or jones in dm and shinji in am. or do we really need 2mfs behind shinji?

also does anyone have an idea of rvp's weekly wages? is it 220k?

Have you seen how many shots the opposition have had on our goal so far this season? I'd say we need to sure up the midfield if anything, certainly not make it even lighter

Gav

04 Sep 2012 18:51:27
Fletcher named in CL squad - great news I say and congratulations to him for working so hard on his recovery! Perhaps he is not as unlikely to return as many of us feared? And perhaps this is why the manager didn't feel the need to bring in a defensive minded midfielder?

Also a note on the more creative element of our midfield. I can perhaps see a correlation between Cleverly in midfield this season and Wellbeck up front last season. Wellbeck was given a full opportunity to show what he can do, following his loan spells. He did relatively well - but didn't show that he is ready to lead the line for us IMO...then we see RVP come in. Is there a chance SAF is giving Clev full opportunity this season (following his injury last year) to prove his worth, before assessing the situation next summer? Knowing that Scholes is still there in reserve. Let's be honest, if we had bought a Moutinho type player to partner Carrick - Cleverly may not have had much of an opportunity to show what he can do, given that we would also have to give games to Scholes, Anderson, Fletcher, Giggs and possibly Powell

I'm not saying I think SAF was right not to buy a CM, I really think we're lacking quality in there. I'm just trying to find some logic behind this decision. Perhaps the manager will assess both Cleverly and Fletcher closely this season then make his move based on this next summer....let's hope so anyway, lol

Gav

I think he's also using this season to assess targets as well. he said he was interested in Kagawa after his 1st season at Dortmund but waited to see if it was a flash in the pan or if he'd have 2nd season syndrome. When he looked the real deal he pushed on with a deal.

I think he's doing similar this season as well. Targets? Eriksen, Gaitan, Rodriguez, Munian, M'Vila are all possible and yes 3 are wingers.

If he is assessing players over this season then they either have to be young or have only come to the fore in the last season or so. Players like Strootman or Eriksen or Gundogen.

Shappy

I too have a funny feeling we may watch Eriksen closely. IF he has a good season I wouldnt mind getting him (although I'm also a fan of Moutinho) and either Muniain/Rodriguez next summer

Gav

04 Sep 2012 16:42:02
I think there is only one way Ronaldo could ever come back to Man Utd. Wayne Rooney would have to be sold.

We all love Wayne and he has been one of the best players at the club but along with RVP you couldn't have all three players with wages £250,000 and over that amount.

Can I just say it now that Ronaldo will never wear the red shirt again (Apart from Rio Ferdinands Testimonial) but lets just say he wanted to come to us and only us I would offer them Rooney +£35million. Would easily be enough for Madrid to take. But it isn't happening

RedKnight

Why not offer Nani and £35-40 Million for Ronaldo? Worth a punt, and Ronaldo Rooney and RvP would cause sheer havok to any defence, on paper that is possibly the most fierce Attack in World Football.

Also, everyone slagging Rooney off, he have been so talismanic for our club and if he played for anyone else, other than us, people wouldn't give him a hard time and be begging for his signature!

He has had to shape his game so much to cover the cracks of our Midfield that he hasn't been utilised as he should be. I feel with the addition of Kagawa's vision and eye for a killer-pass he will score a lot this season and form a deadly partnership with RvP

Exciting times lie ahead, in Sir Alex we trust...

ALDUtd

04 Sep 2012 15:25:04
Here is another option.

For now it looks like it will be Nani at left looks better than Welbeck at least he proved Saf that he can play and he has good attitude showing up as sub. And Cleverly without the aggressiveness doesn't look that amazing and he seems to be looking straight at wings on sides(easiest option) rather than looking to see where the best option is at front. But still hopefully he will improve. But for now this seems to be our formation.

Rafael--Vidic--Ferdi/Evans--Buttner/Evra

Valencia-Carick/Scholes--Ando/Cleverly-Nani
Kagawa
RVP


The case of when all the injured players are back special when Wayne Rooney is back(hopefully with less fat and slim). I think there is no way he will play at the left wing. Here is my option, with Kagawa on left with Buttner on LB.

When attacking the formation will change into

3-1-2-3

Vidic/Smalling--Scholes/Jones/Carrick--Ferdi/Evans
Anderson/Cleverly
Rafael--Kagawa--Buttner
Valencia--Rooney--RVP(Super left Foot)


When Defending

Rafael--Vidic/Smalling--Ferdi/Evans--Buttner
Valencia---Carick/Jones/Scholes--Ando/Clev---Kagawa
Rooney
RVP


Do let me know? Thanks for reading!

Red Samurai

What a awful formation... Think you have been playing Fifa/Football manager a bit too much

RedKnight

Im not sure I like the look of the 3-1-2-3 formation. We may aswell have a proper crack at each game and start with 11 men on the pitch.

TK-Red

Well it is hardly an opinion, more like comment without any basis.
In defence there is always need for 2 CB plus DM(which we dont have one) so in this case a CM who can hold and spray the balls to wingers and RVP, the best option we have Scholes and Carrick. Now tht there is CM covering, it leaves Rafael and Buttner to attack, both have amazing attacking attributes with good crossing. With Cleverly pulling strings with Kagawa. Rvp and Rooney interchanging and Rvp has started playing on left side which he was really good at.

Almost every team is playing this attractive football, Barcelona(plays exactly like that), Mancity, Arsenal, even Chelsea is playing like that. Yes I dont like City, but they are playing good football.Silva and Nasri on left or right side and when attacking dropping in pulling strings.

So whats so Fifa/football manager about it. Unless u dont have any idea about football.

Red Samurai

Red Samurai

Tk-Red sorry about that. Got my numbers wrong but yeah, if read the formation with players there is exactly 11 players(without putting GK in it)

Red Samurai

I saw mate, I was just being facetious ;)

TK-Red

Only barca try and play that way and it wasn't always successful for them last season.

Its a bit Ajax 1970's to be honest and i'm not sure we have the players with the high enough levels of technical competence to pull it off.

04 Sep 2012 14:03:27
Am I the only one who thinks it is odd that Ronaldo is 'sad' at this particular moment in time? I would be sad as well if tax changes meant I would be losing the amount of money he will.

MDJ

I think he's sad with how bad united have become

04 Sep 2012 11:07:48
If Saf is reading this.
This is by all major fans.. If u want continue blunders play evra.. If u want to slow down play with no aggrasion play carrik..
We love united and we wil continue to do ao even in this condition.
Rodio17

Luckily I'm a minor fan lol

Pardoe

I will take what you said on board.

Cheers,

Sir Alex Ferguson

Evra and Carrick are out top performers

Mike Phelean

Don't worry guys, we are offering Michael and Patrice new contracts so we can keep them until they are 40 like Paul and Ryan. We had highlighted their exceptional talents of messing up or failing to pass and with our wonder squad of nani and anderson we should be able to challenge for the 2nd division.

David Gill

I'll give you 60 million each for them

Brendan Rodgers

Yeah ok guys, this joke got boring after the first one, so give it a rest.

Clayton Blackmore

Brendan mistakenly added an extra zero. £6m for both of them and we'll tarmac your driveway as a sweetener.

John Henry

Clayton any chance of coming out of retirement, I need another muppet in the team?

David Gill

Thanx a lot guys for ur comments.. I can see your love for those players same as mine.
. Thanx to saf.. David gill.. Mike phelen.. I m wondering why rooney havent commented!!
Rodio17

David, you cant afford my wages ;)

Clayton Blackmore

Yeah I'm sorry Clayton, the Glazier took out the last £100 million so i can't afford much

04 Sep 2012 09:20:34
Anyone think Wayne Rooney will be utilised more often in midfield this season?

We seem to be playing 4-3-3 more often. Rooney was shifted out to the left when Ronaldo was here. Kagawa seems to prefer playing centrally behind the striker.

No, hopefully not. With the risk of sounding like a broken record, Rooney's first touch is nowhere near good enough for him to play in a crowded modern day midfield IMO.

TK-Red

04 Sep 2012 08:20:29
Modric is just like Carrick... constantly sideways and backwards.. There is only one guy who can replace Scholes atm and that is Christian Eriksen."""
dear mr no name
once again a poster wisely does not leave a name
after providing the most entertaining statement of the day
ngiak simply cant believe that he has said what he did
scholes and eriksen in the same league? ngiak does not even think eriksen is within the same galaxy
modric? oh no... dear dear unnamed sir
looks like you have to watch more soccer... and actually get your opinions from NOT watching youtube
modric is pure class, world class, the best player in spurs, the best player in a world class national team called croatia... while eriksen is barely the top 5 player in a weak weak ajax team, let alone the dutch national team
anita was better
the wingers are better
de jong is better
all current ajax players
ha ha ha
ngiak had fun though with your post
thanks!
gan

Not sure I believe modric is that good tbh actually I don't think he's even close, but what do I know maybe you see something I missed

Pardoe

Why do you always talk about yourself in the 3rd person - its hugely annoying and detracting from any valid point your making!

Gan

Erickson is Danish mate so yeah there will be a few Dutch players getting into the Dutch team before him haha.

Jono

Best player in a world class national team called Croatia... LOL, I stopped reading then.

rpc

Gan - Did you know footballers improve and Eriksen has huge potential....

I think you have missed the point I do not thin he means Eriksen is good enough now I think he means in world football he is the most similar player.

What's the big deal about leaving "your name?" Does it lend more credence if it signed "gan" or "syd" or "bollock brain?"
Steve {Ed007's Note - If you don't have a name nobody pays any attention to your post. Your opinion doesn't really matter either way as nobody knows who you are.}

I love Gan's 3rd person posts, brings a little humor to the site!

You do tickle me 007..

TK-Red {Ed007's Note - SShhhh that was between us.}

I like gan's posts TBH - some I agree with and some I dont, this one I fully agree with. In terms of available targets who could have taken over from Scholes, Modric was the only respectable option. Erikssen may have potential but to say Modric is poor and say Erikssen could take over from Scholes in the same breath is clearly the voice of someone who hasn't watched both players closely IMO

Gav

Modric is so over hyped its funny.... Eriksen has great potential and has the most similarities with Scholes out of anyone and he is at a great age... The OP never says he could takeover him now I think most have interpreted it wrong when they said atm when they meant theres nobody else around in world football with the similar play and I agree

04 Sep 2012 08:12:08
I think that now RVP is up top Rooney can be moved further back into the centre. He's strong on the ball, great long passer like Scholes and (if he keeps the weight off) can easily go box to box for 90 mins. We have seen him many times more than willing to help out defend.

Don't think he could have been considered for this really before now due to lack of goal threat. Get Kagawa to support RVP, even Welbeck on the left, and Cleverly in with Rooney

Aj21

04 Sep 2012 02:14:20
So i'm sure someone has already asked this, but whats the situation on henriquez? He is not in the squad according to the official website. Will he be loaned to a foreign club until january or is he still at unversidad de chile? Whats going on?

Daniel