Manchester United Banter Archive December 05 2013

05 Dec 2013 22:56:46
Can anyone else see the similarities we are suffering at the moment with Liverpool not that long ago? Change of manager, only a few key players, no strength or depth in the squad of quality, ageing players, pretty boring football, losing at home regularly, struggling to gain any momentum, mid table and way off top spot? I love United and will always support them no matter what and this isn't me slating the team, just an observation after last night, but to say i'm a tad worried about our circumstances at the moment is an understatement, especially with all my friends constantly letting me know about it. This season could well and truly make or break Moyes, the team and our reputation. It really is a tricky one at the moment and who says even with signings we are going to get that much better, as Jan is not exactly the best time to sign the players you want. When the season is over, is our downfall going to lye with our shambles in the summer? But anyways onto Newcastle and I will be supporting the team as always and hopefully getting that much needed win we desperately need at the moment.

Just had to get that off my chest, so don't kill me! Take care guys

I see what your saying but the key difference is the amount of money we have compared to Liverpool who were completely broke under Gillett & Hicks

It is similar to Liverpool's situation. They took two attempts at sorting it out, the first when they brought in daglish and gave him ridiculous amounts of money. We know that failed but their second attempt with Brendan Rogers has worked out well for them but they have still spent a lot of money rebuilding their team. In the last year they have bought mignolet sakho toure coutinho Moses and sturridge who are all in and around their first team which goes to show that we not only need the Glazers to open up their wallets but also the right man throwing around the cash and after the summer we just had I don't think Moyes is the right man to trust with money.

Moses is on loan from Chelsea

Kolo Touré Was a free transfer

Sturridge Mignolet & Coutinho have

proved to be very shrewd signings

and Sakho hasn't had enough games

to judge him yet.

is it true that Van Persie has spit

his dummy out because Ferguson

told him he would be there for 3 more

years or is he really injured?

It was souness who ruined Liverpool all those years ago, first thing he did? Got rid of the then famous boot room.
They are still trying to recover from souness era

05 Dec 2013 21:35:16
Evening all, first time post. I thought I would just throw my pennies worth into the terrible start to the season we have had. Firstly I grew up in Preston and always had an eye on PNE and went to watch them when I couldn't get to OT. Moyes did wonders for them. Got them promoted and they truly looked like a team who would make it into the PL. His hard work training sessions made the difference to a team with a very little budget and very much a local team. He went to Everton where everyone will agree did an admirable job with a tight budget and again pretty much a very local team. I think his coaching skills and hard training sessions are probably second to none. However I think his down fall is the fact he has walked into the biggest and most difficult managerial job in the world and wanted to stamp his own name on it straight away. He is used to having tight budgets and looking and players who suit a team with lesser ambition so to not keep our targets, which would have been assessed over and over again by arguably the best scouting network in the world is very naive in my opinion.
I think he will come good and we will get the fourth spot we all know our club needs this season I just believe he has tried to change to much too quick that didn't really needed changing. It was the squad that needed altering. Not the back room staff and transfer targets.
Sorry if I have gone off track a little or if its already been said.

{Ed007's Note - Welcome to the site.}

05 Dec 2013 20:47:06
I was just wondering does anybody else think that our current predicament might put off the potential quality signings we need?

Yes we are United but we currently are 9th in the league and are not showing any signs of improving. We may have to prove to others that we still have quality, granted no longer Champion quality but we definitely deserve to be in the top four. We may not get the quality we so desperately need in january as at the moment we do seem like a sinking ship. We need to win the next five games in the hope of getting a cl spot. with tottenham, Newcastle Everton, City, Chelsea and Aresnal, Liverpool and Southampton all ahead of us, Its going to be tough to break back into the top four.

Would world class players want to join a team that seems to be declining?

Depends on the personality of the player.

Perhaps it will filter out the sort of players we don't want who are only interested when everything is hunky dory.

In our present condition we will only attract top players who have a bit of fight about them and can get stuck in when the going gets rough.

We are still Manchester United and that counts for something.

05 Dec 2013 19:58:39
Hi chaps, first time I've posted on this site but been a long time reader (everyday).
This may go against the grain on here but I'm 100% behind Moyes, got to give the bloke some time. It was always going to be a tough job, even for the likes of Mourinho. if he was the chosen one. He's inherited a pretty poor midfield and I'm sure we all agree the boss needs invest in quality and not panick buy in Jan. We're 2-3 BIG signings away from being a team that can challange for CL & PL IMO.
I'm willing to give Moyes a chance for at least a couple of seasons and I think we should all get behind him AND the team. They need us more than ever.

Remember what Fergie said in his last game. Give him time

RedBarron

I think you underestimate how much of an overhaul the current squad needs.

I could list 10 - 12 players who need to go over the next couple of seasons and I don't think 8 - 10 youngsters will come through to replace them.

You could list 10-12 players you think are ready for the exit door but the reality is we are only a few players short and we do have 4-5 young players that are capable of making it to the first team so yes I am willing to back the man and I remember SAF statement give him time and that's exactly what he will get :)

Kate, I hope you're right about the younger players, but are you sure they will all be 1st team regulars within 18 months?

I've no problem with giving Moyes some time to make the necessary changes but I completely disagree that we are only a couple of players short.

05 Dec 2013 17:54:06
If Zaha doesn't feature on Saturday I'll lose all hope
In moyes. I think Zaha would contribute to the side as
He'd run at players and get a ball into the box! I think it's a disgrace players like young and Nani are getting game time he should be. The league is over unless we get 15 points from the next 5 games, so mix it up change our style, formation or something! Start both adnan and zaha against Newcastle on Saturday! What can young and Nani do they can't? We should recall Powell from his loan spell because imo he'd be better than fellaini has been thus far. Finally moyes, please sign Ross Barkley.

Why the bloody hell would Ross want to come to you lot, never got a game under moyes and now he is starting all the time, enjoying his football and the way it's going he will be playing European football with us, what have you got to offer him?

Lol. why do the Everton fans suddenly think they are a big club?

We're Manchester United if we went in for Barkley there is nothing your small club could do about it, you need the money.

{Ed002's Note - A level of arrogance that should provide a smile for the Everton fans. See if you can manage some decent banter for a change - you are equal bottom of the banter league as a group of fans.}

My Ed 002 that's a serious charge who we level with?

{Ed002's Note - Liverpool. Equally the poorest at Banter.}

Are you having a laugh? small club?
if we needed the money we would have sold baines to you lot. And in case you have forgotten already then let me remind you that we didn't only just beat you yesterday but we outplayed you in your own backyard, we deserved the 3 points and it proves how good of a team we are since you are desperate to sign all of our players and half of your fans on this banter page are saying you should have appointed martinez. think before you chat utter bullshe*p

05 Dec 2013 18:41:13
I know ross personally mate, see him nearly every day and let me tell you he hated moyes, he used to get stubbs to tell moyes he had a good game for the under 21s just so moyes would pick him and if he made a mistake he would be out the squad for 6 weeks, motm vs arsenal and is in the reserves for over a month, ross loves it here and is an everton fan and the fact you are apparantly 21 is laughable, you speak like a 10 year old girl about to cry because she got a horse not a pony or didn't get to go on the teacup ride, anyway a nice laugh with you mate, your narcissistic ways will come back to haunt you oh wait they already have, guessing you only got about half an hours sleep on that train back to london eh such a shame, bed time now

Ps:loved the banter with christheredman, hats off to you coming back on our site today

Mike-Ox Long

Quite simple andy, Manchester United or Everton, pretty confident the wages we'd offer he'd come. And we will finish well above you and you mention European football? Well if he signs in January he'd be in the champions league.

I said European football because it could be champions league or Europa for us, the way your playing at the min you won't be playing in either, when will you realise that you are a club on the decline!

Mate stop with this decline rubbish, we aren't playing well 2 quality signings is all it takes. You boys won't finish in the champions league spots mate, how many times have you's talked about getting into the top 4?

Once again another poster claiming he knows a player. Agree with your point about Ross not liking Moyes. but please spare us with the "I'm his best mate he tells me everything" "Last night we played FIFA ordered a Pizza and glazed into each other eyes"

05 Dec 2013 21:19:09
When did I say that mate? I grew up in wavetree with him and I don't claim to be his best mate I just know him personally but believe what you like, either way he won't be joining utd

Mike-Ox Long

Everton is temporary mate, united is permanent;) hahah if u knw what I mean.

Ross Barkley won't be going to Man Utd. i'd probably worry more about losing RVP and having David Moyes, Steve Round and Phil Neville in charge of your first team. Just saying

Why on earth would we want to buy Ross Barkely. If our ambitions are to be competing for cL again we need to be more ambitious than buying a good midfielder who plays for a middle of the table team and who has proven and won nothing. On that basis I would prefer lalana or schneiderling from southhampton.

The truth is he will be at everton, if he keeps progressing he will end up moving to a bigger club in a few years.

06 Dec 2013 09:16:52
god created utd, so you don't like rooney then? he is crap, give us him back for nothing if you think he is a mid table player

Mike-Ox Long

I think the post was about Barkely and not Rooney, recommend reading it again. If you are insinuating that Barkely is Rooney quality, get off whatever you are eating or drinking and recommend a change of diet as you are clearly chemically unbalanced.

You will finish 6th or 7th depending on how liverpool go. Top 5 from last year will be the same this year but in different order. Always maintained before we even kicked a ball this year that city will win the league and that has not changed.

05 Dec 2013 17:22:28
Apparently Moyes was fuming after last nights defeat with the way the Everton fans treated him and said
"If that's how they want to play it, they'll regret it"

If true maybe this means he will try and buy their best players? eg, Barkley and Baines?

05 Dec 2013 16:19:50
so as promised yesterday, i'd come back and give you the congratulations on winning you all wanted.;)

so here it is in the form of a song

oviedo baby oviedo woahhhhhhh :P

no but seriously I feel for you lot as the train journey back to london and the flights to dublin must have felt so lonely

enjoy bottom half after the weekend boys ;)

There is a Spanish saying, which when translated is "the misfortune of others, is the consolation of fools".

Ah, to be a happy fool again!!

Lol, oh well we always seem to have a few hiccups against the small clubs every year.
Wot I find amusing is the fact that I work down south and where I work there are more everton fans than utd! Ironic to say the least.
Right onto the game, yes u beat us, I tip my hat to u for that! Its not often a wee club like yours will get a result against a big club away every week like United and for that well done!

Wot I dnt seem to get is this newly found hatred for us u seem to have found for us this season, we always seemed to have good relations with each other over the last 15 or so years and i'm struggling to know why, u not bothered by Moyes u say, same with fellani so wot is it?

Your season for now at least is going well, same sort of pattern as Martinez at all his other clubs so I will reserve judgement for a while till teams figure your style out. Then we will see.

Well done for the win and yes my humble pie is very nice lol ;-)

05 Dec 2013 15:39:28
After last night it does seem like the title has gone this year but I fully expect us to finish in the top 4. Looking at our fixtures between now and spurs at home in the new year we SHOULD be winning them all, I know this is the premier league and the same could've been said about fixtures we have already lost.
But if we can get two or three wins off the belt I think we could be set up for a new year united run of old.
After all it isn't the performances that are lacking now, it's the results, we aren't playing any worse under notes than we did under ferguson the difference is the players knew how to win under SAF.

Also find Woodward comments regarding shirt sales as nothing to read into, he is trying his best to show doubters that we won't slip into a Leeds like decline.

05 Dec 2013 14:26:40
I'm REALLY enjoying reading this site today!
2009 Captain

05 Dec 2013 15:49:29
Be careful laughing at other peoples misery, fate has a cruel way of evening out the fortunes.

Lol Shapps it does indeed, people seem to forget we are united! We may fall but as always we will get back up and fight. All the wind ups will be noted, remembered and hammered when our time comes.
Forget them, dnt take the bait and they will leave (or in Marcellus case, make up wild accusations about being threatened, then leave)
Its banter we can take it but in giving it they will be reminded when they get it back that they must too!
Other than the same posts from the same posters i'm actually really liking the site atm in a perverse kind of way.

Yeah Shappy that's true and you're a good example.

05 Dec 2013 13:04:03
I'd like to be a fly on the wall in some room somewhere listening to SAF saying exactly what he really thinks. Or would that be a very risky place to be with all the boots and other handy projectiles that might be flying around?

On the other hand, perhaps this really is part of a long term rebuilding project that everyone at OT knew needed to happen. The thing is, if this is the case, and the first step was to completely change the coaching staff, then we are in for a few years wait to get back to the top. No manager can just replace a whole team and create a cohesive unit on the field from day one. It takes time to get the mix right and develop teamwork and tactical understanding, however much money one spends in the transfer market. That's what SAF created, generations of players reared in his system, seamlessly fitting in to take over from those who reached the end of the careers or were sent packing for being naughty boys. He was brilliant at it, but as many have said, the cracks were beginning to show, as key players were not being replaced (due to lack of funds?), and instead mid-range role players were being asked to fill boots far bigger than their talent.

It is hard to be patient while the drama unravels - one rather wants to take a peek at the end of the book to find out what happens. Does Moyes succeed? Or does the new suitor take over?

05 Dec 2013 10:56:04
Direct quotes from Ed Woodward

If you fight hard and just fail, people will still watch you on television, still turn up and buy shirts.
There's still a lot of affinity with the club and interest. The reality is that you can't always win.
Take Liverpool. They still sell an incredible number of shirts and have the second biggest shirt deal in the Premier League.
They have one of the biggest technical partner deals - and they haven't won the league since 1990. And you can put the last bit underlined and in capitals.
If we have a bad year we have the financial strength to change the team. We have so much deeper financial strength that instead of selling three players and buying three, we can do five.

Make of it what you want to. Take a bow Woody

Deeps.

We will see if these statements are true come September. It's clear as the day is bright that we needed two worldies in the summer. We bought none. So far you have to say the transition from SAF to 'no SAF' has been poor and I think there was enough time to prepare for this. If we went for Moyes then we should have not tinkered with the coaching staff for a at least one season. I understand managers want their own staff, but it was too big of a change IMO. I also think Moyes should have went with SAF's targets this time round, he had the rest of his career to add his own players. Moyes should have trusted the scouting staff and his predecessor SAF and went with their targets. I think the whole point of going for Moyes was so that the change was as little as possible, it ended up being a massive change and we are left with a manager who is really under pressure and seems to not have the full backing of his players. Certainly on the field anyway.

Syd I have to disagree on the whole going with SAF's targets. This is no longer his team so why should a new manager want to bring in players he hasn't personally been looking at and wanted? makes no sense. He may end up feeling pressured to play players he doesn't like because he was the one that sanctioned the deals. Who is to say SAF's targets would have solved our problems? let's face it he also had some stinkers in the transfer market. We could have ended up with more Nani's, Andersons or Youngs on the wage bill who we struggle to move on in the future and Moyes would have been blamed for it. He needs to make his own decisions and live or die by them, not someone elses, even if it was SAF.

This is a season of Moyes settling in, assessing, setting up his targets and who he wants rid of. I, personally, think he had to bring his own staff with him aswell, why leave them for one more season and then get rid? Best to let the new coaches settle in his first season rather than having 2 unsettled seasons. Any sane fan won't have been expecting a title challenge this season, top four and a champions league place is the essential necessity and I totally expect that come May.

Syd

Whats alarming is him talking about shirt sales and the moolah to boot no matter how we perform. The Eds actually edited a few choice words I had used for him. Why is he citing Liverpool as an example? Is it supposed to make us feel ok about it? He should rather be concerned if we go their way. I am scared if people like Woody are at the decision making end of things when it comes to this club.

Deeps.

Deeps, a lot of people are saying if MU fall out of the top four that we are going to go bust. I think this statement is to calm the nerves of fans who do not now the financial situation.

Brendan, many of the top clubs' managers do not get a say in who the club buy, so why couldn't the club make a stand and tel Moyes we will be going with SAF's choices. Players they have studied for months, perhaps even years.

Woodward is an extremely naïve man.

As someone who has travelled extensively in SE Asia, and other parts of the world, I GUARANTEE that our popularity in these parts will wane.

In 2009, I saw mainly United shirts with the odd City, Chelsea or Arsenal shirt.

In 2013, those other shirts were FAR more noticeable in their presence.

Those fans tune in to see a successful team that ENTERTAINS. If we don't have 'superstars' on the field (Rooney, RVP), those fans will look to teams that do - they have no attachments to us, make no mistake.

Good luck striking awe into these malleable fans with a team full of Cleverlys, Welbecks and Youngs.

If the success begins to wane, so will the shirt sales. If Woodward thinks Asia will see a boom in United shirt sales with 'Welbeck' on the back as opposed to the Ronaldos, Rooneys and RVPs, he's a joke.

If you sit back and look at the current situation, we have lost two major people in Gill and SAF with regards to any high profile strategy at the club. The dynamics of the EPL have changed in that it is about how much your owners are willing to spend on success. Chelsea spent big to win the EPL years back then reigned it in and we won the title back. They are now spending again and are back up there. City are spend spend spend and are up there. You can argue that others up there haven't spent but let's be honest, come April, City and Chelsea look more likely to be competing for the title. Arsenal have a tough list ahead and then at the end of the season. Liverpool are a one man show at the moment but that isn't a title winning formula. We have had a massive period of success over the last two decades. Change will throw this out of the window. I do think we will still be in the top four come May but it won't just fall into place as in previous seasons under SAF. There are only two windows available to Moyes to mould his team over a season. The first as we know was a complete farce and mistakes were made. I can't see any major change in the Jan window but I will reserve judgement to see if lessons were learned until the end of the upcoming summer window. Give the new guys a chance, after all it has only been 6 months since Moyes took over and only 4 since the team started under him.

I completely agree with everything Brendan said

Sydney this is United, we aren't like other clubs and I really hope we never have a situation where anyone other than the manager of Manchester United decides which players to buy.

It doesn't seem to harm barcelona & Real Madrid with signings that aren't sanctioned by the manager.If we again sign mediocrity in January & the summer then we all know the glazers don't want to spend & I'm afraid we're doomed.Once Fergie announced his retirement we should of broke the bank for klopp & taken the club in a total different direction.If you don't move with times you get left behind, just ask the mickeys.Moyes is out of his depth& we have far too much deadwood. Blackpool Red

Brendan, why didn't we expect a title challenge? We won the league by 11 points last year, so although others have strengthened, we should still be there or there abouts. So I don't buy into that.
Also, if all clubs with new managers and staff are not expected to challenge, then how do you explain, City, Chelsea, Everton? They've all had managerial and staff changes and all have adapted very well.
So come on, let's stop making silly excuses, Moyes is not the man for the job. Why did Kagawa get hauled off? And who did he bring on AGAIN?

Jred

I feel bad for Moyes. Admittedly he has made mistakes(e.g keeping Welbeck on and subbing Kags), he really can't do much if one of our players misses an open goal header. Still think its more Fergie's doing, ignore it and now someone else has to pay for it. My qualm is, if Baines, Herrera and Fabregas were Moyes' targets, what on god's earth were we playing at by bidding embarrasing amounts for them? WE decided to bid less than what Barca bought Fabregas for. What were we doing bidding 28 million for Baines and Fellaini combined? If you say that, Woodward fecked it up and couldn't land Moyes' targets, I am completely with you. I have always had a bad feeling our stinker of a transfer window will come back to haunt us.

I am behind Moyes, no doubt about it, he needs it more than anything else. But God save him if Woody means business. Get that clown(Woody) out.

Deeps.

Deeps
I made a similar point further down the page.
Our back 4 has been getting older for a while and our midfield has been pretty poor as well.
Take rvp and Carrick out the team who where our best 2 players last year and it doesn't look a great team on paper.
At the moment moyes can only get by with the players he has.
I think he want fabergas Baines and Herrera in the summer I actually think just fabergas would of made a huge difference.
I think untill moyes gets the players he wants and let's be honest the players the team needs, it's a bit early to judge him

Nomidfield, yes we won the league but you can't seriously say we played well last year or the season before for that matter. The first 11 has been on the decline for quite a few years now. The reason we won by 11 points, was the fact that our challengers were poor, and we also had the greatest manager of all time at the club, motivating the players and getting them performing above their standard. Did you seriously expect another manager to come in and get that same level out of this set of players? If so, you are hugely underestimating SAF and what he achieved.

All clubs aren't United, they didn't have a manager at the club for over a quarter of a century. Those clubs weren't literally built, by the manager who left, from mid table teams to 13 PL titles and 2 CL titles. The change happening at our club is greater, I think, to any change at a club in history. People don't seem to understand that, or do but ignore it and expect everything to roll on as normal.

Whoever came in would have found it hugely difficult. I believe all would have brought their own guys with them as Moyes has done. Some would have spent more money in the summer and some, like Moyes, would have waited and assessed the playing staff correctly and changed it to how he wants it. I'm pretty sure the owners/directors aren't expecting a league title this year and have allowed Moyes the time to assess his players this season and then build as he sees fit.

I, as many on here will know, am a huge fan of Kagawa and no I don't think he should have come off. Yes, Moyes will make mistakes but who the hell doesn't??? Have Mourinho and Pellegrini made no mistakes so far? They, though, joined clubs where players are purchased for the manager and in Mourinhos case he knows the club inside out. We aren't that kind of club and to have changed to being that club this summer would have gone against everything that SAF stood for, I'm pretty sure he gave Moyes advice and his blessing to choose who he wants at the club, rather than just buy players who had been scouted previously, can't imagine SAF would have ever accepted that.

As I understand it, if we had been decisive and spent the required money we could have signed Alcantara, Baines or Contraeu, De Rossi and Herrera. i'm sure Luis Gustavo could have been persuaded to come as well rather than join Wolfsburg.

How different the squad would look with those 5 in the squad instead of Fellaini, Cleverley, Evra and Anderson

05 Dec 2013 10:16:13
Right the title is now gone, top four is the aim now then rebuild in the summer. I think we now understand just how tough the challenge of replacing Sir Alex truely is.

But in saying that I think some people have gone over board about last nights game.

It was just one of those games where we didn't get the rub of the green. Atkinson was his normal self when reffing us. I knew we weren't going to win the game when Evras header was saved then Welbecks hit the bar and then when the ball fell to Rooney our most in form player he blazed over. Three golden chance in 10 seconds and not one goes in, that's just bad luck.

We created chances but couldn't finish them.

I also think people are being unfairly harsh on Moyes. First people complain that we were out played by Everton at home. Well we were out played at home by worst teams than Everton last season yet no one was calling for Sir Alexs head. Until our midfield is fully sorted out we will struggle to dominate teams for 90 minutes.

Its hardly something new and unique to this season. The only difference is Sir Alex managed to grind out the results even in games that we didn't dominate, that was probably due to the attacking nature of play Sir Alex liked to play. This enabled us to be the second best team on the pitch but still create enough chances to win the game.

All season we have complained that Moyes is too defensive then yesterday he had the option of bringing on Evans for Rafael(who was never likely to play a whole game while coming back from injury) then push Smalling out to RB. But he decided to be positive and play Valencia at RB(which isn't something new to Valencia) and play Januzaj and Nani in order to try and win the game. Unfortunately it back fired when Valencia didn't track Oviedo allowing him to score the winner. that's just unlucky, but at least he was being positive.

The last thing I think people have been misguided with is their critisim of Fellaini in last nights game.
He was deployed as a defensive midfielder, and he made 5 tackles 4 interceptions, only gave away two fouls, disposesd once and dribbled by once. He made 68 passes with a completiin rate of 93%. He did everything you could ask of a DM. Okay he didn't make any driving runs nor did he score or open up the opposition with a cutting pass. But that's not the job of a DM.

People have mentioned Sven Bender as a option yet Fellaini did everything just as well as Bender does for Dortmund last night, yet Fellaini did it in the Prem which is where we need our players to perform.

On last nights performance I think if we can pair him with a player such as Gundogan or Koke then he will be able to form part of a fully functioning midfield for us.

There were some positives from last night, you just need to look past the result.

Think it's time Moyes concentrates training on finishing because how many times have we heard after recent games that we had chances but didn't score them?

Level headed, you don't do rash!
always willing to read your posts, even though they are b-oody long,
keep them coming.

It's obvious Moys still has a lot of work to do. He can be pretty naive at times.

Everton play with 2 reliable full backs and hard working ( arguably ) wingers, therefore we were never going to defeat them on wing play alone.

Giggs was anonymous for most of the match and made things even harder for Fellaini at times. When we needed more attacking flair to try and finish off the match, Giggs should have been taken off for Anderson, who despite his inconsistency, can offer plenty of energy going forward, or even drop Kagawa a bit deeper and play an attacking 4-1-4-1 ( only as a last result ).

And how Welbeck keeps playing is beyond belief. Nani is just as fast, equally bad passer, better on the ball and less horrible end product. The only thing Welbeck has over him is work rate, and I have yet to see a " big " team choose workrate over quality.

On the other hand I see Fellaini is starting to find his feet. He was decent a couple of weeks back and a bit better this week. He was more mobile this week and was able to cover for giggs when needed. His fitness has obviously improved but not he still has a tendency to get tired after a long run, which results in opposition players having an easier time bullying him off the ball since he's catching his breath, which will be improved upon with more games.

The fact is SAF had a winning CV when he arrived, enhanced by it not being with Celtic or Rangers. How can we trust Moyes to turn it around when his CV just doesn't demonstrate the necessary experience? Are we just to sit back and hope? Will the players now be questioning whether his methods work? I suspect so and it makes it ten times more difficult than before

I think you're a little delusional Shappy I'm sorry I don't mean any disrespect but how you can defend Moyes and Fellaini is beyond me! How many times this season have we had "one of those games"? He needs time? tell that to Mourihno, Pellegrini and Martinez who are sitting in 2nd, 3rd and 5th in the table! they don't need time and they didn't walk into a club that are current premier league champions!

As for Fellaini? you say he needs to be paired with this player or that player to be effective basically! we should've read the small print when we paid 27.5 million pounds for him (may require additional parts to be fully functional)

05 Dec 2013 11:55:31
Redman, we were caught in an awkward position. Sir Alex had been at the club for so long that everything at the club from the top to the bottom was run in his way. So the club had a choice either bring in someone who had a winning CV but would want to change everything from top to bottom and potentially wreak everything Sir Alex had built, or bring in someone who would only make a few changes but who didn't have a winning CV, but would maybe not rock the boat so much.

In the end they went for Moyes, someone who fits the personality profile but lacks the winning CV. Barca and Bayern as two of the most successful european teams and both prefer to hire managers who have either played for the club or have spent time at the club in some other capacity thus meaning the change in management is more natural. Evolution rather than revolution.

I think the club hiring Moyes was their attempt to try and do the same. Bring in a man who has many similarities to the departing manager so as to limit the distuption. So far it hasn't quite turned out how they had hoped. But we need to give Moyes more time, 5/6 months was never going to be enough time to complete the biggest tranisition in world football.

Moyes may turn out to be the best heir to Sir Alex or he may turn out to be the buffer who takes the flak and makes the key changes allowing someone else to take over from him in a smoother transition. But we won't know which for at least another 18 months.

Shappy

Moyes has changed everything, the back room staff even the scouting people, we are now Everton in all but name.

It is a big, no massive decision because another 18 months of Moyes could see us competing in mid table. Liverpool 1990 and I am sure many thought it would turn around. It is a massive decision but like I have said before Moyes hasn't outlined his plans his aims and the players don't appear to be buying it bar maybe Rooney. How long do you let the decline continue and when do you cut and run? What will you say if we don't beat Newcastle when pressure will be enormous?
Massive decision but it's the Glazer asset at stake don't forget

05 Dec 2013 13:08:03
Jamal, i'm looking at it without passion. That way I can see things more clearly.

Of course Moyes was going to make mistakes, everyone does. Can you honestly stand there and say you have never made a mistake in your proffessional life? I didn't think so. Sir Alex made mistakes, he even admits he has made mistakes.

So to expect Moyes to come in and be perfect would be silly beyond belief.

You mention the job that Martinez Pelligrini and Mourinho have done at their clubs, but was the job they have bigger than replacing possibly the best manager in english history? We have 26 years worth of transistion to go though, did you expect that to happen in 6 months?

As for Fellaini, its a team game, a team is made up of many different parts take one or two of thoses parts out and it won't opperate as it should. If Fellaini is the engine of your car you still need a set of wheels, an engine with no wheels is less than pointless.

Would you expect a keeper to keep a clean sheet if there were no defenders infront of him?

So to blame Fellaini for not fullfilling two or more roles in midfield is a little foolhardy.

I don't think this is moyes fault, it's been coming for a while.
I've said before I think one of Fergys biggest achievements was winning the league with this squad.
There are issues that haven't been addressed for years.
Moyes wanted Baines, fabergas, Herrera all 3 players would of improved the team but the club either couldn't or wouldn't get them

100% agree Shappy, what's with the short post though? :-)

Shappy, sorry but I've got to go with Jamal and Redman on this one.

With 14 games played we´re in 9th, 12 points behind Arsenal. I´ll say that again - WE ARE NINTH!

I don´t believe in mystical concepts such as luck. Its all just physics. I would say that if we had better players we would have taken the chances we had and created even more.

I take heart from Moyes being positive with his substitutions. It doesn´t always pay off but hopefully it is a sign of things to come and Moyes will employ a more attacking style of play. The times this season he has had a go at teams, it has worked out for us.

I´m all for giving Moyes and Fellaini a chance but so far I´ve been less than impressed.

I think this season we just need to ensure champions league qualification and have a huge squad clearout over the summer. Next season the new squad will need to bed in so i´m expecting us to be rivaling Real, Barca, Bayern, Arsenal, City within 2 years.

Yeah I'm real silly for expecting the Utd manager to keep us competitive you know the current premier league champions!? Silly me for having such high expectations! He's doing an amazing job so far isn't he? and also Fellaini has been brilliant hasn't he? 27.5 million pounds looks like he's worth every penny Shappy.

I wouldn't expect anything else from you Brendan.

05 Dec 2013 17:12:11
Jamal mate you seem to have taken offence, none was ment sorry if it came across that way.

You need to step back and ask if it is fair to expect anyone to take over someone elses team and get them to play as well as they got them to play. A football team is like a taylored suit, just because it fits one man doesn't mean it'll fit another.

You need to give Moyes the chance to have the suit adjusted to fit him.

It was always going to be tough to replace the best manager possibly ever, if Sir Alex is the best then everyone else is a step down. So whoever got the job was going to have the toughest job in football. How do you replace the irreplacable?

As for Fellaini, yes he cost a lot of money. But that's just the way football is going now. We didn't complain that the 80m we recieved for Ronaldo was too much. And if were honest you coukd argue that it was that huge fee which kicked the lid off of player prices. But you can't expect any player to come into a team in a state of flux and really shine. I think if given time both Moyes and Fellaini can be successful with our club. let's have a little patience.

Jamal, no offence mate, and I'm sure you are an adult, but that last post of yours sounds unbelievably childish and petulant.

Typical of today's, 'I want it, and I want it yesterday' society.

If you had your way, we'd be changing our managers every 6 months, and selling new signings after 10 games.

That may be how it works on Football Manager (though I doubt it), but in the real world, with real people, things take a bit longer sometimes.

StevieK

Fellaini had a decent game and if you want to be honest with yourselves, Welbeck, Kagawa, Valencia, Rafael and Giggs and even Rooney were far worst than Fellaini in their roles.

I don't think it is childish Stevie I'm being called silly for having high expectations I don't think wanting to be competitive in a league we won last year is silly I don't even believe my expectations are that high!

Shappy I'm sorry if I seem disrespectful but it seems like anyone that has a negative comment on this site is dismissed as not having a clue! Just look at stevies comment! Fellaini doesn't fit into our team in my opinion he is wasted in that position and there is far far better out there than him! To compare his transfer to Ronaldos is a little ridiculous! Ronaldo has something like 220 goals in 210 games for Madrid and he's the best player in the world! He was the best player in the world when we sold him! Fellaini's transfer is more comparable to Andy Carrolls to liverpool!

I know Moyes needs time but how much time is enough? let's be honest here the start he has had could not of gone much worse could it?

Jamal, he needs enough time to overhaul a substandard first XI, not a handful of games.

Jamal

"I know Moyes needs time but how much time is enough? let's be honest here the start he has had could not of gone much worse could it?"

The manager has been in charge for 5 months and 14 games, are you saying we should start sacking managers every 6 months if things don't go our way.

Quite a few here criticized the appointment because he had no real european experience and no domestic success.

For me he has passed the first gateway and got us into the knock out stages and the money that comes with it.

Now to the league, let me ask you something come May if we finish 3rd or 4th are you going to complain and did you really think we have a team that should be winning the league if you did, you are naive mate.

We are not good enough to win the league but give him time to sign his own players and get rid of the deadwood and then we can have the debate if he is right for the job or not.

05 Dec 2013 10:07:10
When Moyes was appointed I was 50/50 with the decision. His lack of European experience being the main concern. However none the less I still continue to support Moyes and the team.

To blame Moyes for not signing players is harsh. The man who was supposed to do this is Woodward. Moyes has been quite vocal in his attempts to add to the squad. If he gives a list of players to Woodward and only Fellaini comes in there's not much he can do about that.

Woodward was inept in the summer and will have hopefully made amens for this in the January transfer window.

Now onto team selections. Moyes has mirrored SAF in his approach/substitutions. Players are still being played out of position, none more so than Cleverley. A player who is naturally attacking minded being told to play as a holding midfielder is simply not acceptable. As adequate as Cleverley can be at completing this role in the team, against the top teams he like others are simply not good enough. He does move the ball quickly to the wingers and at times mirrors Carrick in terms of get the ball and pass it on. I still hope that Cleverley could be a very good player for us but more than likely due to being played out of position it will be what could have been. Pushed further up field in an attacking position he could flourish with Kagawa. I will will undoubtedly get shot down at proclaiming an obsurdity.

Nani/Young/Anderson/Evra need to go. Its quicker and easier to label them as deadwood.

Rio is old injury prone and Vidic isn't as sharp as he once was due to injury. Smalling and Jones are quite injury prone with Smalling suffering more and thus affecting his confidence. Evans is also in/out the treatment room. Rafael is prone to pick up the odd niggle here and there. Evra great at attacking but quite simply poor at defending and causes far too many problems by draggign the team out of shape due to him not tracking back.

Valencia is and will never be a rb. Caught out for the Everton goal yesterday. It would be better to give Fabio a chance at rb if Rafael isn't fit.

Kagawa another player pushed out of position for the good of the team. When deployed in the hole we play better football and this could be seen yesterday when he came off we lacked the midfield penetration he was giving us with his link up play.

Wellbeck unlucky not to score yesterday and liek Nani the penny hasn't dropped yet. He causes problems for the opposition and then his touch/ decision making and finishing inevitably let him down.

Carrick due to his age needs a repalcement now. Will he still be first choice when he's 36? more importantlywhat if his current injury keeps him out longer than anticipated.

Fellaini, in need of a wrist operation which may suggest why he doesn't go in for slide tackles. But so far has been average but like Moyes need sto be given time.

All in all the January transfer window will be key to how we finish this season. No one will be surprised to see us lose an other game or two or more.

Why did he take off Kagawa so early?! He was playing well. Moyes has been making some really questionable substitutions of late. While SAF used to get them spot on the majority of the time Moyes is making a name for himself in the opposite manner.

The key for trying to guess how a player would be when employed in an attacking position is to look at his attributes.

An attacking midfielder/ winger should have one or more of these different attributes : creativity, vision, finishing, dribbling, crossing and pace.

Cleverley possesses none. His passing is always safe, and while it might be his job to keep the ball moving, you still expect to see a through ball every once in a while ( see Carrick, Ramsey, Xavi, Gerrard, Pirlo etc ). Now carrick plays it very safe, but he is still at the centre of most things we create, by assisting the assist.

Cleverley can't dribble, that goes without saying. He can't cross, ever since he used to play for the reserves as an occasional wide player.

Pace, decent but that's it.

As for finishing, we haven't seen enough to really judge but he tends to really misjudge his long shots.

Watching MOTD last night, something dawned on me.

When was the last time, we saw one of our central midfield players get the ball and bang a 20-30yrd shot on target to test the keeper, let alone stick one in the top corner?

We have absolutely NO GOAL THREAT from our bunch of midfielders, none whatsoever. They don't score and they don't create, they just play short sideways passes to the wingers who then fire in a cross against the fullback. Rinse and repeat.

We're so predictable it's horrible.

To RED_SKY

I hate to say it but the last time I can remember a midfielder doing that was Cleverley Vs Newcastle, and it was a miss-hit cross in my eyes. Pogba has been banging them in for fun, hate the fact we let him go :(

05 Dec 2013 09:40:22
Hi guys. Arsenal fan in peace. I just wanted to comment about David Moyes. I really do feel sorry for the guy. I think he is capable of managing Man United and winning some trophies. The biggest problem that Moyes had when he took over was that he was taking over from possibly the most successful coach in the history of football (even as an Arsenal fan I must admit) in SAF and to make matters worse, he had just won the league when he stepped down. So Moyes inherits a team of champions and the club doesn't lose any players. I think from the moment that he took over, he knew that some wholesale changes needed to be made in some key positions especially in your midfield. But he could't exactly stick out his neck and offload players. Imagine a scenario where he had sold off Rooney, Evra, retired Giggs and then the team is in the same position it is now? He would definitely have been sacked by January. I think the fact that he has retained the squad left by SAF is a smart one on his part. People understand now that some players from the Fergie era are not as good as they were a few seasons back. Now that the whole world has seen where the team needs changes, everyone will support him when he does ring the changes. If he had tried to make changes to the squad before the beginning of the season, he would have been guilty of "trying to fix something that wasn't broken' and if he had failed to make top four after such changes, he would have been gone

Cheers guys

Good post mate, agree with a lot of it to be honest. I'm sure even DM knew what areas of the squad were weak and needed new personnel but if he came in and bought a couple of players that would send out a wrong and potentially damaging message to the rest of the players rather than showing faith. Was never going to be easy, can't compare it to any other situation in football at the moment because this transition is so rare. A manager in charge of one of the worlds biggest clubs retires after 26 years, it's unique. I just hope David has confidence above all, and a plan for the future.

He kept the players and yet replaced the coaches.

fact is these coaches know how to work with these particular players, so getting rid of them is a bit dumb.

He either sticks his neck out and goes all the way, creating his own team with the players and the coaches he deems fit, or keeping it safe.

Either way he either did too much, too soon, or didn't do enough. Now he's no longer playing with ferguson's team of champions, nor is h playing with his own team.

Maybe he wanted to create a new beginning and create his own team, and Ed Woodward failed to follow.

january will be an interesting time me thinks

Exactly what I have said in the past and been slated for by some of the doom and gloom mob. Great post from a supporter from another club who can look at the situation without being emotionally attached. Always good to get posts from real supporters and not the usual brain dead halfwits.

Anyone with eyes knows the first team needs strengthening and we would have loved it to happen in the summer, but whether fans like it or not Moyes needed time to assess his full squad and decide what to do. In my eyes, next summer we will see the end of Giggs, Evra, Rio, Nani, Young, Anderson and maybe Fletcher depending on his latest comeback.

I've said all along that I expect 3rd/4th place this year and any silverware is a huge bonus. We were never going to win the league with the first 11 we have and SAF worked miracles at times along with our rivals being poor last year. We need to accept that now, Moyes is going nowhere and will be allowed to build his first 11 from January onwards. Next season I expect us to be up there challenging again.

Brendan81

Hope you're right mate, but where's this money going to come from?

We need around £150million spent on LB, CB, 2 x wingers and 2 CM's not to mention replacing Kagawa/Rooney/RVP/Hernandez if they leave (Chicha could be replaced internally, I concede that, maybe Keane?)

The biggest bid we got for Nani was less than £10million last season, who's going to pay double that now? Who wants Young? He's got a stinking reputation. Anderson might raise £8mill tops right now.

So we can't really depend on player sales to boost the coffers, unless we sell 1 or more star players like Rooney and RVP, which could be disastrous. We're in a bit of a tight spot, methinks.

Red sky, I think we'd get between £10-12m for Nani due to his now longer contract, Young would go to a mid table team for about £8m and Anderson probably the same. I'd rather have £28m in the kitty than those 3 as they are adding nothing to our squad. I, personally, think Rooney will go. He is playing very well but I don't think he will sign another contract, I think his mind is made up. We would therefore only get about £20m for him in the summer.

The players I think we need are a LB, CB, CM, right sided attacking player and a Rooney replacement if he has decided to leave. Let's say we have a £50m summer kitty, we get £48m from the sales mentioned and we have £20m unspent from this summer. We, possibly, could have £120m in the kitty if the club is willing to spend it, but not saying they will.

I think Moyes may possibly want a type of 4231 formation when he has the players he wants. We already have DeGea, Rafael, Vidic, Fellaini, Januzaj, Kagawa, RVP who could make that formation very successful if we add a quality LB, CB, CM and a player to play on the right of the front 3 along with Januzaj and Kagawa.

It will be very interesting and difficult to sit and watch at times in the coming year, but I think it will come good, and I'm certain Moyes will be given the time and backing to let him succeed.

Brendan81

Hope you're right mate! I'm very much a 'show me' type of fan. If we have the money, this summer was when it needed spending the most and we dithered and quibbled and ended up overpaying for a player who hasn't done anything to justify his tag so far.

If the money is there, time to prove it. No more big talk. Actions speak louder than spin.

05 Dec 2013 07:52:47
The morning after and it still feels as painful.

We all know the problems that exist with the team, but quite frankly the position we are in at the moment is unacceptable.

I for one have warmed to Moyes', but he is beginning to look like the architect of his own demise: Giggs and Felliani in CM was a recipe for disaster. Giggs needs a runner next to him like Jones, for him to have an impact on the Game. The continued presence of Danny Welbeck in the starting 11 is beyond baffling, as his presence in the team only serves up negative outcomes for the majority of his time on the pitch.

As good as Everton were yesterday, there really isn't many excuses we can make. We had a team still capable of winning that game. Yet Everton looked more tactically astute, and played us on the counter attack - reminiscent of our good old days.

The worst part of the night for me were the Everton fans singing "are you watching David Moyes".

Well, we are in a tussle for 4th by the looks of it now; and even that looks like a bit of task considering the way we are playing.

Something has to be done, and done soon!

Sam
What cm pair would of played

05 Dec 2013 09:24:05
Fear not Sam you have to remember that this group of current Premier League Champions amassed a total of 40 points between January and May 2013 to win that title, beating the likes of Villa, Stoke, Sunderland, Reading, Norwich, QPR, Fulham and Wigan.

Add that to how Moysie didn't manage to inspire Everton to an attainable fourth place and you guys are laughing. 6th spot is yours for the taking, that I have no doubt.

A tussle for 4th? when your sat in 9th position is slightly optimistic to say the least, Europe through winning a cup competition would be more realistic

Baz

Last night was horrible. A top four struggle it is then. Let's hope the team react positively but half the team look totally clueless. I do think Powell will be recalled in January. It will save a bit of cash. Team needs a drastic overhaul. It has been coming for a while but the actual reality of watching this dross and the league position, well it's a bit grim. I'd like to see Witsel, Coentrao, Koke come in and Young, Anderson, Welbeck leave and Ferdinand, Giggs retire. And thank you Marcellus for crawling out from under your stone and sharing your moronic gloatings. No class. Just like the team he "supports".

05 Dec 2013 03:55:12
Our next 5 games are all very very winnable. And we must win them too. Newcastle, villa, hull, west ham and Norwich are simply must win. And if we lose any of those then we have no chance. This will be our easiest run of the season and might bring us back into contention by the end of January.

It must happen.

With no Rooney or Rvp Newcastle will be a hard game

We should play both Kagawa and Januzaj as they're the only other two real decent attacking players that have a lot of skills in their lockers.