Manchester United Banter Archive February 05 2014

05 Feb 2014 22:52:11
It's obviously been a tough season, not sure what the key reasons are for this disapointing half to the season. I personally think it's a mix of lack of quality in key areas if the pitch ( centre mid, left back, etc) a manger with no fresh ideas or down to the players not finding any confidence in the manger and there selves!

However, like us all I'm hoping for a high spending summer bring in some real quality.

Left back: key area that needs rebuilding as Patrice evra is past his days, a great personality but past it in performances. If I'm going to pick one that I would like to see in a red shirt it will be Luke shaw. Great talent, promising and works hard for the team he is playing for. If not shaw, it has to be fabio coentrao. Proven in the champions league and at a top team like Real Madrid.

Centre back: Garay is a must! Experienced, solid and just a all round class centre back. Not sure who else I would get, the fact that mangalas price has Been quoted at 40m is scary.

Centre midfield: many options in this position, and we need 2 first team quality centre mids. The first one, which ed004 mentions all the time is Vidal. Box to box class midfielder and he summed it up with his quotes saying he is the best in that position. Scored over ten goals this season and racks up a few assist, he would bring real quality to the side. The second midfielder I would like to see is Toni kroos. Everyone knows how good he is. If not these two I would have to go with Herrera and javi Martinez.

Left sided attacking midfielder: with Ashley young and nani needing to go, and janazuj still developing at 18, I feel we need a experianced left sided player who brings goals to the side and can link with mata rooney and RVP. I will have to go with Marco reus. Proven in the champions league and brings goals and quality to the team, very fast and dynamic also. If we can't get him, it has to be Draxler, only 19 and he is playing amazingly in the champions league and his respective league.

So at the end of the summer I will like to say we will have a great chance of winning trophies with a team of:
De gea
Rafael Garay jones shaw
Vidal kroos
Mata rooney reus
RVP

Now that would be class!

I fail to see Kroos, Vidal and Reus join us unless we qualify for the champions league. They're just too good, and most top teams would be after them.

Shaw is a Chelsea fan.

I agree with your identification of the areas that need improvement, and I think all of those signings would vastly improve our team. However, barring Garay, I don't really see any of those players coming to United. Shaw is apparently an avid fan of Chelsea, who have shown interest in him. Vidal starts for the best team in the Serie A, and Juventus look to be on the up as well. Kroos is a German who not only plays for the best team in Germany, but the entire world. Would Reus want to come to United? Surely other top clubs will be interested in him, and it would be a massive coup to sign him. Not trying to be overly pessimistic. While I do think United will do a lot of business in the summer, I really have a hard time seeing why so many of the players we're linked to would want to leave their current clubs.

I've been posting on here for about a year now. My first post, not reply, was that we needed 6-8 players over the next 2 or 3 seasons, I've always qualified this with "some may come from our youth". I think its fairly obvious Moyes intends a clear out. So I'm going to contradict myself somewhat. I'd like to see 4 summer signings.

1) A world class LB mines Sandro insert your choice here I'm equally happy.

2) A CB or I should say a proven CB the ones I like are more up and coming so let's go with Garay.

3) A CM Vidal, Vidal or maybe Vidal
as mouth watering as a Vidal, Fabregas pairing would be or Vidal Koke. I for one would be very happy to see Vidal with Fletcher or Carrick or Jones. If Vidal is a definite no no then plan B= pay the 36m euros for Herrera and Koke or Rakitic or Guarin. or plan C Kroos + Koke etc., If Kroos get his pay rise he will stay at Munich so I'll leave plan D to you all.

4) Reus or Griezmann. On a side note Ryan Gauld was all the rage up here earlier in the season, things have gone very quiet more recently. He does look a talent but I'd give him at least another year. I live about 20 miles south of Dundee and if you want a tip for the future John Souttar 17 year old CB.

So I'd be very happy with 4 in the summer if 1 is Vidal 5 if not and for somebody who makes signing players seem as simple as shelling peas even I'll admit that's a big ask.
If 8 or so players leave the shortfall should be made up from our youth team which would freshen up the squad.

I agree, it will be hard to see those 3 players of kroos, reus and Vidal join united even if we do qualify for champions league. Due to the fact kroos is playing regular football for Bayern, a lot of other teams will be after reus. They were the players that I would like to see join and would fit the team well.
Thanks for the insight guys! It's good to see other peoples views. :)

After buying Mata I don't see us moving for any more attacking players .
I can see 1 maybe 2cm a Lb, CB and maybe a Rb.

I think the search for a left back and left winger might prove more difficult than people think as many teams are out here looking for left sided players.

On a positive note, I am pretty confident we will get 2 midfielders in come this summer and they will improve us vastly.

Whilst everyone has their views on who are the ideal two, I am sure there are other players who will be potential targets and a few new faces that will become household names because of the world cup.

On other thing that might be also assist in our chase for Midfielders is that none of the big European teams like Real, Barca, Bayern, Chelsea, City, Arsenal, PSG, Juventus, are not looking for midfielders as they are all pretty well stacked in that area and if anything will be losing some because players are not getting enough game time.

"are not looking for midfielders"

damn, Should say "are looking for midfielders"

We will not spend 120-150mill in the summer it won't happen

We might and I would be surprised if we don't spend close to it.

05 Feb 2014 20:41:04
Eds, with the loan window opening this week, do you know if any of our youngsters are going to get loan deals?

I think Keane, Petrucci and Lingard are too good ( and old ) to stay in the reserves. I would also be very happy with Rothwell getting a loan deal, so he can be fast tracked to the first team in the next couple of years ( injury permitting )

{Ed004's Note - Hopefully petrucci and Lingard}

Pettrucci is quality if he can stay injury free

05 Feb 2014 19:42:20
Right now I don't know the fitness of our centre halves but on Sunday we play bottom of the league who are devoid of confidence.
Instead of going back to the old school my thoughts are that it is a good moment to give Michael Keane a start. He seems to have done well on loan and there is only one way to find out if he has what it takes.

It's still a little bit too early for him IMO. I would like to see him get an EPL loan move first. Vidic & Smalling will almost certainly start with Jones and Evans being injured. There maybe an outside chance of Ferdinand and Vidic returning to defence with Smalling at RB. Does anyone have an update on Jones? If it's concussion then that's usually three weeks.

Expect Vidic and rio or vidic and smelling to start. Expect Darren fleeter to start as well.

Meant fletcher and smalling :)

Smelling and fleeter is better

Redman I've only seen him live in 1 game this season against liverpool at salford rugby ground, we got battered 4-2 and he had a mare I've seen him plenty for leicester and utd u18, s before and he's performed well but I still think he's a bit off 1st team yet unless injuries say otherwise

05 Feb 2014 18:41:34
Here is some interesting stats for you. They are all taken from League Games. It is clear to see that the United midfield is a big problem. In a lot of areas it struggles especially Protection to defence, Creativity and Goals!
Michael Carrick: Games:16 Goals:0 Assists:0
Tom Cleverley: Games:18 Goals:1 Assists:0
Ryan Giggs: Games:10 Goals:0Assists:0
Darren Fletcher: Games:4 Goals:0 Assists:0
Marouane Fellaini: Games:11 Goals:0 Assists:0
Antonio Valencia: Games:20 Goals:2 Assists:2
Ashley Young: Games:13 Goals:2 Assists:0
Nani: Games:8 Goals:0 Assists:0
Adnan Januzaj: Games:17 Goals:3 Assists:2
Shinji Kagawa: Games:9 Goals:0 Assists:0
I excluded Juan Mata as he just signed but it is worth mentioning he has 2 assists which has equaled already are best after only 2 games.
Man Uniteds whole midfield together has Goals:9 Assists:4. Now if you look at the list below of some of the players we try'd to sign or were linked with you will see there League stats for there clubs. Arturo Vidal has more Goals and Assists on his own than the whole United Midfield.
(Centre Mids)
Arturo Vidal: Games:22 Goals:11 Assists:6
Paul Pogba: Games:22 Goals:6 Assists:7
Koke: Games:22 Goals:4 Assists:10
Ander Herrera: Games:18 Goals:2 Assists:3
Kevin Strootman: Games:20 Goals:5 Assists:6
Toni Kroos: Games:18 Goals:1 Assists:3
Thiago: Games:9 Goals:1 Assists:3
William Carvalho: Games:17 Goals:2 Assists:0
Ivan Rakitic: Games: Goals:10 Assists:9
Axel Witsel: Games:19 Goals:2 Assists:1
Cesc Fabregas: Games:21 Goals:7 Assists:15
Fredy Guarín: Games:19 Goals:3 Assists:7
(Attacking Mids)
Antoine Griezmann: Games:20 Goals:14 Assists:2
Marco Reus: Games:19 Goals:8 Assists:7
Lucas Moura: Games:21 Goals:3 Assists:9
Everton Ribeiro: Games:35 Goals:7 Assists:13
Adam Lallana: Games:24 Goals:7 Assists:6
Rémy Cabella: Games:22 Goals:8 Assists:6
Ryan Gauld: Games:21 Goals:5 Assists:7
Wesley Sneijder: Games:14 Goals:8 Assists:2

Man United need atleast 2 from each list in the summer to challenge next season!

{Ed004's Note - In all honesty I'm hoping to see 3 players signed from those lists. In an ideal world Vidal along with Kroos/Gundogan/Koke/Herrera (that order) and Marco Reus or Griezman. Play those 3 along with Mata and Rooney and that is a lot more goals and assists. If Rooney leaves though one more will be needed IMO}

Yikes ugly stats.

Someone should dig up our stats when it comes to defending set pieces, I would imagine we are one of the worse teams in the league the last 2 years.

I would also bet we must have the least number of shot attempts by midfielders and worse on target percentages.

All in all a midfield that is a fit for a team outside the top ten and not one of the biggest clubs on the planet. Quite embarrassing how low we have gone and allowed it to fester to this point.

GCU
it just needs a bit of confidence, that's a title winning midfield

Ed004

Herrera is better than Koke IMO and maybe even the best of the group you have listed if we are looking for someone who can play as a box to box.

The critics will say he does nto have a great shot which is true and kroos would be better from that aspect.

05 Feb 2014 18:05:05
hi betty swollocks, mick1 and ed007:) thank's 4 nice words.i'm feeling little better now, and hope that i'm 100% fine soon, after that i'm going to enjoy life again and banter.take care of yourselves, cheer's zee:) ed's banter please

Good lad, Zee. Nice to see you back.

No problem Zee, glad to have you back. You seem a little more upbeat already. I hope the site can help to cheer you up, even if the actual football hasn't been great lately. Looking forward to the weekend now. We are well overdue a change in fortunes, and someone is going to get a hammering from United soon. It could well be Fulham. Fingers crossed eh. Look forwards to hearing from you after a big win at the weekend :)

05 Feb 2014 16:31:17
Apparently David Moyes, Steve Round and Phil Neville are in Greece today. All three are watching the Olympiakos vs Panionios game. Any ideas as to who we could be looking at?

{Ed007's Note - Olympiakos.}

Lol you do realise who we play in the last 16 of the champions league right?

They were there to watch Roy Carroll. Moyes' is lining him up as our new number 1.

:0)

Post of the day right there. brilliant!

I think MS has probably forgotten we are in the UCL considering how poor we have been this season.

A Greek Bebe?

And olympiacos will be no pushovers.!

This post made me chuckle :-) thanks MS

I've heard it all now. What is that guy on or does the next round of the CL count for nothing in his eyes?

05 Feb 2014 13:49:35
Was having a think about the team and line up and have came to the conclusion that 4141 would be the best formation for us due to the options it gives us. Ideally we would need to see an improvement from big wig and he would be perfect for the 1 in front of defence but if he does not improve there is quite a vast list for the summer whom could take the role.

As I was saying this is a very flexible formation as it is very easy during a game to quickly change between 4141, 4123, 41221, 4321, 451 and 433 depending on what is needed. This will allow us to switch from high attack based formations to high defensive formations within a matter of seconds.

I also can not see RVP sticking around if we failed to secure Champ league football so would give us an option to play mata and kagawa next to one another with wazza up top, whom for some reason I could see staying no matter what we get.

I would prefer tosee a 4-2-3-1 formation with carrick & fellani sitting in midfield protecting the back four. That leaves Mata Rooney, januzai and RVP up top

4-2-3-1 would best accommodate our attacking players but I think we would need better cm and fullbacks to make it work

A 4141 system would, IMO, be the best system for us atm. I don't think Moyes' will move away from wide players' any-time soon, so it seems the best option we have. At least we would see Mata
in a more central attacking role; well, I hope it would, but there's no telling with Moyes' in-charge.

100% agree with Jred.

SHOCK HORROR ;)

To support and attack of Adnan, Mata, Rooney & Van Persie we will need better fullbacks and better midfielders. I think Fellaini will take one midfield spot and Vidal would be great in the other spot. Shaw at LB (unlikely I know) and a more reliable RB and we would be good to go. To get the best out of our best players we need the defence and midfield to improve. In the short term they need to improve their performances, in the long-term we need better players and they will be signed over the next 18 months. Whoever they may be.

No place for Kagawa unless Rooney leaves, presumably Sydney?

I will have to reconsider this, I am obviously talking rubbish

Sharp, jred. Very sharp :)

Paulo, I don't think Kagawa would play even if Rooney left. I'm sure that was SAF's plan, but Moyes sees things different.

Sydney

If the reports are true that SAF opted for Kagawa instead of hazard, I would say he really missed the boat on that one.

Kagawa needs 2 midfield in the mold of Vidal/Pogba or Gundogan/Bender to do the hard graft in the middle of the pitch to be effective. We don't had ether so he struggles to make an impression.

He is a lot better than what we have seen if he had better group of midfielders around him.

Shahram, I agree with all of that.

05 Feb 2014 11:46:33
Wanted to post this as a reply to one of the replies on my post down the page, but I think it deserves a separate post. (Keep in mind I fully understand that we should be playing better than what we are, would have preferred Pep or Klopp, but I don't think we would be higher than 4th with any other manager than Sir Alex)

Now what I see is that Sir Alex believed that some of these players were better than what they actually are, he bought them and had full confidence in them, and they have now struggled to adapt to the fact that a new manager does not believe that and is seeing them for exactly how good they are, and who wants to change a lot of the team which has come to the end of a cycle and build his own. After all, Rooney, Jones, RVP and Carrick (when fit), Januzaj, and De Gea have performed up to standard imo and haven't shown "the moyes effect". I don't think any of us have been fully happy with the rest of the squad for some time now.

What I am extremely concerned about is people constantly trying to put a Moyes spin on everything that has gone wrong. A few years ago we had Carrick as the scapegoat, now its Moyes.

You can try and put a nice Moyes spin on it but we have needed a major rebuilding or rather "retooling" for some time now. Weren't a lot of us going on about it last January and for a time after that, even when Sir Alex was here? But now its all about the manager, after all these are the defending champions.

Moyes or no Moyes, a lot of deadwood needs to be cleared, a lot of the players have come to the end of their careers or just don't live up to the standards required, and need to be moved on. Some need to be made squad players rather than first team players.

A lot on here had clearly made up their mind up on Moyes even before a ball was kicked this season, so i'm not surprised with some of the reaction.

I would really love to see how any manager other than Sir Alex (and Moyes) would have got this team playing. How Cleverley would have suddenly started commanding the midfield, or how we would be using high pressing tactics and blistering counter attacks without the required midfield and defensive pace required to cover the areas it leaves us exposed to, how Evra would suddenly have started defending which he hasn't been doing for 3 years now, or how the slow and injury prone center backs would have made a rock solid defense. How the wingers who haven't crossed a decent ball for ages would have suddenly been playing better or how the "other manager" would have dealt with the injury crisis or the limited options available in midfield (being even more limited from injuries) and been the "master tactician" without the required players being there to execute them.

Everyone was in agreement at the end of last season I think that if our opponents strengthen their squads which they have, and we don't 4th is what we would be looking at, but now it seems our problems are of course down to the manager, the players and injuries have nothing to do with it, they are the defending champions after all.

Rant over.

Spot on.

Good post Redfaith, Moyes inherited a team in decline that had over-performed for a few years because of SAF's motivational powers.
A major rebuilding is needed and, hopefully, that will at least start in the Summer. There are some concerns about Moyes which remain unanswered- namely last Summers transfer fiasco and why he bought Fellaini. The complete change of back room staff was handled poorly and Moyes's motivational and tactical skills are not yet proven. To blame lots of our losses on bad luck is unacceptable. There must also be concern about his handling of some players such as Zaha and Kagawa. He gets my support until the end of next season but, hopefully, we'll see real progress before then.

I am not blaming Moyes directly, I am merely saying the change of manager has had a bad effect on the side this season. They look nervous and they are severely lacking confidence. No doubt we need to strengthen and no one is saying this current team should be topping the EPL, but the current side should be doing better than they are. This side is underachieving massively this season. The players for whatever reason are not playing well.

If the players were capable of playing better under SAF, then they are capable of playing better under Moyes.

Redfaith
Excellent post imo a good analysis of the team.
A refreshing break from a lot of normal rubbish

REDFAITH – Your post seems more of a considered point of view than a rant and, for what it’s worth, here is mine. I agree with you that the squad has needed an overhaul for quite some time. In my opinion SAF could’ve done a lot worse than retire after the 07/08 CL win because there has been a steady decline in our quality since then. Perhaps his desire to win a 3rd CL title clouded his own judgement but I certainly think his acquisitions became a little more hit and miss towards the end of his tenure. That said he thoroughly earned the right to decide himself when to call it a day…and IMO has earned the right to go to OT and watch as many matches as he pleases.
When I heard of his impending retirement, yes I was gutted and sad but I was also really excited too. For me this heralded an exciting new dawn in the chapter of our great clubs history. Would it be Jose (not for me), Pep (no as he was already assigned to Bayern), would it be Klopp or Ancelotti? Managers each with a track record of playing modern, expansive football. Managers who have won league titles, managers who have won cups both domestic and European. Managers with experience in the demands of managing behemoth clubs and the pressures associated with them. If I was feeling this excited imagine how excited the players must’ve felt. An opportunity to develop their game further. A chance to learn more expansive ways to play. A manager who would be able to bring in some big name signings and energise them and lead them to greater victory.
But no! We appointed David Moyes. The underwhelming deflation I felt was palpable. Once again, the players must have felt similarly to this. United had hired a man with no history of winning league titles or cup wins and no European experience. A manager whose only success to date is not being totally rubbish(although he’s working hard to change this). His stats make for OK reading. He wins more than he loses. His teams are difficult to play against but they are also quite uninspiring to watch. This is not a young manager learning his trade, a manager who is in development and showing signs of what might come (even this would’ve been exciting to see). Moyes is a very experience EPL manager who has been managing a single club for a very long time with absolutely no success. (I don’t count not failing as success btw). So yes I must be honest and say my mind was probably made up before he arrived. But hey I’m fickle so my mind could easily be changed.
Unfortunately to date ALL of my fears in his inability have been manifest in both our performances on the pitch (even some off of it) and in the results and up to the 5th February 2014 I have seen absolutely no signs of any improvement whatsoever. So what am I to think, why would my view of him change? Why shouldn’t I lay all of our ills at his feet?
One thing we can both agree on though is in the first sentence of your penultimate paragraph. “I would really love to see how any manager other than Sir Alex (and Moyes) would have got this team playing”. ME TOO Considered opinion over!

Agree we are playing very badly and showing nerves and a lack of team spirit. Injuries and pure bad luck (Moyes should not ever use this excuse) early in the season have not helped. I still think Moyes has made some strange team choices. We all know we need a huge rebuild, if only to cover for retirements and aging players. Moyes in fact any manager should get 2 years to prove themselves.

Unitedred71, now that is a good post. Personally I think Moyes inherited a good enough squad to be where the likes of Chelsea are now at this time of the season, but the players have just gotten worse. They are playing poorly under Moyes and if we are honest with ourselves, did any of the MU squad want Moyes to take over? I doubt it very much. So if the players are not convinced for one reason or another, then that will show on the field. And it is showing on the field. Moyes' football is uninspiring, he hadn't won a bean and I think this along with the negative football and his harsh dinosaur training sessions have not convinced the MU players. There is a reason we are in the position we are in and it is not down to the quality of our squad. This team can play better, why aren't they?

With out Rooney, Carrick and Rvp United are left with a fairly average team when compared with the likes of city and co.

Which players played great last season but have been poor this season.

Everyone was moaning LAST season about tactics everybody wanted to change to a more fluid formation.

Everybody said LAST season we needed a CB, a LB, 2 Cm and a wide man.

What's really changed .
This year we have been with out rvp Rooney and Rvp take them 3 out of last year's team I would of also had problem .
Also add the fact that city Chelsea arsenal and liverpool have all improved from last season.

While other teams have improved we still haven't addressed the exact same problems we had last year.

The team that wins the title this year will be a better team than won it last year .

Spot on with your comment and views. Exactly what I have thought for a long time.
We can only judge DM next season once we see who he brings in this summer and who he clears out. Then we can judge him on how the team play and how successful we are.
A lot of people are raising questions about Man Utd's style of play under DM and this might be a valid point but we need to give him time. He may come tothe conclusion himself and bring in a tactial coach like SAF did. Soem of the comments on DM suggest that the man is probablystupid which we all know he is not. You only become a PL manager by being tough but versatile and adapting when you need too. Those that don't simply won't make it.

That should be
We have been without Carrick rvp, and Rooney , take them 3 out if last year's team and we would of also had a problem.
Don't want syd giving me hard time again.

I don't think we played great football last year I'm also not sure which players where amazing last year but have been poor this year under moyes.

Im not a moyes lover but while he is manager I will support the team as normal, but I still don't think he will be here long term, and if we don't beat a very poor fulham side on sunday then he might find the fans patience worn out.one of his biggest mistakes was pulling out of the herrara deal in the summer .that signing would of made a big difference to our season, not challenging the top 3 but playing a lot better than we have.

Syd
How many points do you think a fully fit rvp is worth

Grund, agree with nearly all of that. I will give Moyes 18 months more to prove himself, but I think the players are struggling under him. It should sort itself out eventually, but it maybe too late for this season.

It depends on how the rest of the team are playing. If the players were more confident and playing better than they have been this season, then he is worth a lot more points, but if the rest of the team are playing the way they are currently, then I don't think RvP, Mata, Rooney etc will make much of a difference. Like I said, I think our biggest obstacle this season is mental. Sooner or later the side will click into place and we will start playing better. Then we will see the best of Mata, Rooney & RvP.

The problem isn't what Moyes inherited the problem is his lack of knowledge on A working for a top team and B knowing how to deal with those pressures.

He brought the familiarity with out with the old and in with the new coaching staff and I see why, to rid the place of SAF and stamp the Moyes way. Has ANY other top coach done that? Jose, pep, ancelloti, blanc, pelligrini etc

No they realise the importance of continuity and slowly change it up. Moves got it the wrong way round. It should have been the playing staff out in droves and keep the back room together. How ANYONEin football needs a season or 6 months to judge, that ando, clevs, young etc etc are not good enough is beyond me, just another excuse to hide behind for the summer fiasco.

I find it funny that so many were against Jose for instance indicating he would demand 150m to get his own players. And what have we got so far? Almost 70m spent and another 100 needed just to get us back playing decent stuff never mind competing and even that's not guaranteed as moyes has never played the way we are used to playing.

A few on here were saying this summer should have been the big overhaul and even more including others who said it would never happen are predicting it for this summer. But even as a non football manager the fact there is a WC this summer, Ayer hols after it, interrupted pre seasons and looking likely no CL when to you all would have made sense to do it? Last summer to make a massive statement and get everyone on board OR use excuse of needing a year to look at who is needed or not and during that time be ripped to pieces for the crap job that's being done aswell as losing legue title and possibly CL spo, losing the confidence of supporters and players weekly and pinning all the hopes on a summer of transfers to be done in less than a month after a WC?

Amateurish to say the least and the players can see that. Best described as a shambles from day one.

Syd
Who do you mean by the rest, which players have gone from world beaters last year to poor this year?

I don't think RvP, Mata, Rooney etc will make much of a difference.

Sydney

Then who do you think will

I am saying the team as a whole are not gelling, they are not playing well together. When they start clicking we will see the best of the better players. We need the players to stay fit, then after a run of games together they will start to play better and show some consistency. We need strengthening obviously, but we can still play much better than this.

Syd
I don't think there is a single United fan who doesn't think we can play better than this

Well what are you whinging about then? That is all I have been saying. A large part of our problem IMO is mental. I think the player's confidence is shot.

Lol
Of course it was syd

I agree with Jred, we are key man dependent and more about great individual performances than a team who plays well as a group and looks a great unit. It has been like this for a few years now and this year we are not getting those great individual performances.

Many sanguine arguments can be made about the injuries, unlucky breaks, quality of the squad inherited and performance of the players. Yes, it's probably not fair to pass final judgement until he assembles 'his' squad. Yes, he does deserve some time. However, what is of grave concern is that our season has got progressively worse and I cannot see him even remotely trying to halt the slide. Game after game he sets out our stall in precisely the same manner. Surely one must at least try something different? Same applies during a game - no change of style or tactics when we are being outplayed. If he does have a vision then I would just like to see an inkling of what it is. It simply cannot be right to merely serve up more of the same each time.

Shahram, I agree with that too.

05 Feb 2014 10:29:20
Nothing Man United related but how good was Eden Hazard against City the other night.
I thought he was pure class, never gave the ball away, glided past City players with ease.
How many runs/dribbles did he do in that game to relieve the pressure off his team.
He was even tackling back and winning headers in the second half.
Absolute class player who will only get better and better.

He is adding work rate to his game, really starting to look a top player

Definitely man of the match for me, it makes it all the more annoying we didn't get him.

Hazard was indeed a miss. For those who keep saying Moyes plays players out of position. Watching Munich last week and Gotze on the right wing? and Thiago playing so deep in midfield he was nearly a CB, both were excellent by the way.

Funny watched the game and bought exactly the same.

Tiago played deep a lot in his junior barca days and pep knew that. So that's not a surprise.
As for goetze, BD utilised him in wide areas quite a lot too. So again not a surprise.
Playing Giggs in midfield, kagawa at left wing, Rooney at cm, Jones as DM, smalling as rb is wrong and should be stopped.

Nomid

Goetze played wide left for BD and as a number 10 but don't remember him playing wide right.

NM, Kagawa often plays left wing for Japan, and Smalling, Rooney and Giggs have all played games in the positions you mentioned, under Fergie.

I'm not a square pegs in round holes fan, but I don't see what the difference is between Dortmund and us in the example given.

I'll give you Thiago.

It seems you think that Klopp 'utilises' his players in different positions, which makes him seem more tactically aware, whilst Utd play them out of position, therefore suggesting we don't know what we doing.

05 Feb 2014 09:23:31
Was Arsenal a better team than our team last season?. NO!

So how is Arsenal with Oezil, better than MU with Fellaini, Mata & Adnan?. They aren't better, they are just playing better.

It's a fickle sport football. When a team is confident and settled they will play better football. Arsenal when they are not confident and settled were in our position last season
Sydney.

You really don't have a clue.

Arsenal have been rebuilding for a number of years and are an improving team.
United are probably at the other end of the cycle.

From Jan1 to the end of last season arsenal won more points than any other Epl club.
in the calendar year of 2013 arsenal won more points than any other club.
They now have a settled back 4 that took a while to gel but over time have learned to play as a unit.
They have an exciting energetic midfield unit but most importantly they now have a decent CF.
The way arsenal play is very dependant on a good Cf.
Giroud took a while to adapt to the EPL, like a lot of players do but once he did he gave arsenal the cutting edge and focal point they have been missing.
Add ozil to mix and a good manager in Wenger who has had time to build this team and most people can see that arsenal have been improving.

United won the league last year so they where the best team in the league last year but that counts for nothing this year.

Arsenal city and Chelsea have all improved United have been going backwards for a few years.

P.s I loved you comment of " they aren't better they are just playing better " tinted glasses?

On paper, Arsenal were better than us last season. Most of our competition were to be honest. On paper.

It was a combination of RVP, Carrick being fit throughout the season and Sir Alex's understanding with these players that made the huge difference. Others were inconsistent last season, while Sir Alex was the only manager really who had been there, done it all.

Flamini and giroud have made a massive difference imo .

The league table doesn't lie.

@jred

Surely Ramsey is a big part too?

Like I said, Arsenal up until Christmas were in our position. They are all over the place, they were struggling and fans were calling for AW to be sacked. After Christmas they were a totally different team. No new players were signed, they were just playing better. In other words the squad never changed, but the players improved.

That is my point. MU are not playing well at the moment. Arsenal managed to get out of their slump, we are still in ours.

RF, last season many Arsenal fans wanted Ramsey sold, they called Giroud sh!te and they wanted their manager sacked. The defence was getting abuse and Steve Bould was brought into the fold to help the defence. This season Ramsey has been their best player and Giroud their second best player. They have sorted out their defence and the same defence is now playing better.

In other words, up until Christmas when they were 7th, it wasn't that they didn't have a good enough side to be challenging, they were just not playing well. I think that is us right now. We have a good enough side to be doing much better than we are, we are just not playing well at the moment.

Redfaith
Ramsey has been superb I just think arsenal have had that type of player for few years but giroud and Flamini have giving them that extra something they have been missing in previous seasons

Syd

I think its a bit different. We are in a mess and I honestly don't see us coming back from there soon.

Last season Arsenal lost plenty of games before Christmas but they clearly played better than we are right now.

I'm sure that next season we can at least fight for the top 3, but this season 5-7th is where I see us. This tunnel is a bit dark right now.

Syd
You change your point that often to suit your argument I'm not sure anybody knows what your point is.
United need to improve the back 4 by buying better players, they also need to improve the midfield again by adding quality.
Arsenal had the players I don't think United do. Even if we did win the title last season .
With a fully fit rvp Rooney and Carrick we would be in a much better position imo but still not as good as the top 3.
And I base that on the players that the team's have not what happened last season as that counts for nothing this season as team are allowed to improve.

I don't believe United will close the gap with city and co and you can add Munich and co to that unless we spend big and buy several top quality players .
As the one we have aren't good enough even if they did win the title last year.

My point hasn't changed and it's pretty simple. I don't think we are where we are now due to the quality of our squad, not for the most part anyway. I think it's more of a form issue. I think the players are struggling mentally. No doubt we need to strengthen, but I think we are in a slump similar to that of Arsenal before Christmas 2012/13. We can improve with the personnel that we have, but I am not sure they will improve in time to finish 4th.

Nick, Arsenal were just as bad as us before last Christmas. They were calling for AW head and they wanted Ramsey sold. They were in a mess. They were 7th going into the new year. Then after zero signings, they improved immensely and started playing well as a team. I think we will get it right soon, but perhaps not soon enough to get a top four finish this season.

I am not saying we don't need to strengthen the team because we do, I am just saying that I think our major problem this season has been mental, not physical. I do not think they are handled the change of manager well and I do not think they are confident under Moyes.

Syd
They where 5 th

Syd
So you believe this current squad is good enough to win the league? Better than Chelsea and city?

With a fully fit Rvp Rooney and Carrick I think we would be fourth which I think is about right.

We have issues with the back 4 and midfield unit which has nothing to do with form but more to do with the quality of the players.
These issues imo will only be addressed if we improve the squad by buying players young cleverly etc etc aren't out of form they just aren't good enough .

With out Rvp, Rooney and Carrick last year the squad looks average when compared to city and co .
And last year's team that won the title would look average when compared to this city, Chelsea and arsenal team with out them players.

7th at Christmas I meant.

That's where our opinions differ. Of course we need to replace the likes of Cleverley, Young, Evra and even Rafael IMO, but I think this side can play much better than they are and I think the main reason they aren't is down to confidence and injuries at key moments.

If this team can play better under SAF, then they have the potential to play better under Moyes. Why aren't they?

I think we would be at least 12 points better off under SAF. With Mata and a fit Rooney I think we would push City hard, but I think they would win the league.

Syd
You think a lot of things that rarely happen.
How well did we actually play last year, how well would we of played with out rvp and Carrick?

If you can't see that our midfield and back 4 aren't good enough, well that says it all really .
City and Chelsea have a better team but I'm mot surprised you can't see that either.

The fact is as always you have made a load of predictions and when the opposite has happened instead of holding your hands up its excuse after excuse.
You ain't got a clue

Sydney
Arsenal where 4 th at exams ;)

Lol
Xmas even

I think Sydney has a point, we are struggling mentally. Not helped by the manager's continuous changing of team.
Another point made earlier, when fergie retired, the players expected a man with a similar stature to take over, we got moyes.
We can talk about this till the cows come home, but the players have simply not responded to his methods. I don't think the players are not trying, it is a problem with different philosophy, and that has lead to a lack of confidence as the players look lost.
Not sure where we go from here, guess the manager will have to get his act together and get the team to start playing as a unit. My fear, is that he doesn't have the experience to do it.

"If you can't see that our midfield and back 4 aren't good enough, well that says it all really .
City and Chelsea have a better team but I'm mot surprised you can't see that either."

Are you ignorant or just plain dumb? Where have I said we are better than Chelsea and City and where have I said that we do not need to strengthen? I have clearly said we need to strengthen in 'ALL' of my posts and I have said City would win the league this year even if SAF was in charge.

Perhaps it was Boxing Day then? I remember them being in our position around Christmas time.

Nomid, exactly, I am by no means saying we don't need strengthening, I have said since last season that we need 2-3 top quality signings. All I am saying is this current team can play much better than they have been and what's preventing it is more mental, than physical.

I think it's only Jred who either cannot grasp what I am saying or doesn't think we are struggling mentally. We clearly are.

Sydney
You have said time and time again it's a title winning squad .
We had this conversation all through the summer.
And the first half of the season,

NoMidfield.
Where you not quite critical of the team last season .
How do you think the team has played the last couple of seasons?
I honestly don't think we have played good football for a couple of years now.
With out rvp and Rooney how good do you think the first 11 look?
For me it looks average .
Last season with out rvp and carrick, would we of looked much better than we have this year, especially when you take in to account the improved form of several teams in the league this year?

I just don't buy in to syds theory that it's a good team because we won the league.

I think rvp papered over a lot of cracks, and the standard of the league was poor last year. When I look at the team I see issues at the back and midfield.
I think arsenal city and Chelsea have better players and the fact we won the league last year counts for nothing when assessing the team this year

I will guarantee we play better with a fully fit Carrick, rvp, and Rooney.
The simple fact is with out them we look an average team in fact with out them we a team that is about 7th best in the league .
Or do people expect a team with welbeck as the main striker young cleverly and giggs in the middle to be pushing for the title.

I largely agree with Sydney that it is a confidence/form issue at the moment. The quality in our squad should mean we are 3rd or 4th at the moment, not 7th. All teams go thru slumps and it is the managers job to get them out of it. This can be by replacing some players, a change of tactics or, most importantly, thru motivational skills.
I think the jury is still out on Moyes on all these. However, the players must bear a lot of responsibility, they are highly paid professionals and should start acting like that.

You are not the only one Paulo :)

Lindegaard; Smalling, Evans, Ferdinand, Büttner; Valencia, Fletcher, Cleverley, Kagawa; Welbeck, Hernandez.

Thats the team that got beat of Swansea, your really telling me that's a top 4 team .
Your prob right bit of confidence and a decent manager would prob win CL.

Or maybe it's not that good when you look at some of the teams above us

That's not:

De Gea - Rafael - Jones - Vidic - Evra - Fellaini - Carrick - Adnan/Valencia/Young - Rooney - Mata - Van Persie.

I wonder how many clubs could field a second side as good as MU?

Sydney
Fellaini Carrick Rooney and rvp have been injured Mata has played one and a half games.

Look at that team with lindegaard and co .
Is it any wonder we have been dropping points .
But wait it's all down to confidence LOL
How many times have Carrick fellaini Mata Rooney and rvp played in the same team?
None
So we have an actual team that got beat .
And syds team which so far haven't actually been on the pitch at the same time.
I look at the buttner and co and I'm not surprised that team got beat because it doesn't look that good to me.
But then again it's a title winning team so must just be low in confidence ;)
. Clutching at straws now syd
Lol Sydney you ain't got a clue

It is not solely down to confidence obviously. Like I have said it's a mixture of injuries at key periods, negative tactics, weak areas within the team, but the biggest reason for why we are in 7th as opposed to 4th or better IMO is down to the team's confidence being shot. They are under pressure and I do not think they are dealing with the change of manager well enough. This team can play better. You can keep trying to make me look stupid with your snide remarks, but I am not the only one on this page who thinks MU are suffering mentally. We are not all clutching at straws. My point above was merely showing that the team that lost to Swansea was not our first team or even close to it for that matter. If we can get all of our best players back fit, let them get a run of games and get some consistency, then I think we will start to build up some much needed confidence. Confidence they are clearly missing.

Sydney
I think you should read your post again.

Your nearly right in fact if you could just admit your wrong you would be right.

If we get our key players back we would be 4th.
With out our key players we aren't that good .
With out our key players we wouldn't of been very good last year .

You may of had a point if we where putting a full team out and getting beat, but we have struggled to put a full team out all season so it's no surprise we are getting beat.
Put a fit Carrick, fellaini Mata, Rooney, rvp in the team we will play better and start winning . It's that simple.

As for snide remarks have a look at your first post that started the debate 2 days ago LOL.
No need for snide remarks or telling people there wrong, but u can't help yourself

"Your nearly right in fact if you could just admit your wrong you would be right."

I'm sorry, who is telling someone they are wrong?

Yes, myself, Red Man, Nomidfield, FZZ, Grund, Paulo etc etc are all wrong, MU are not suffering mentally at all. You are right.

Sydney
Glad you agree

05 Feb 2014 08:11:00
Hey guys! I think that our attacking quartet of mata, januzaj, rooney and rvp is as good as or even better than any other top european clubs. We just need them to settle down with eachother play. Young, Welbeck, Cleverley, smalling, valencia are not United quality. Valencia may be needed as a squad player. We need to axe the others. Powell should be brought back and given more chances than cleverley. add to that two world class midfielders in the summer, one winger to replace nani and one CB and a LB we are really done with the revamp. Fow now, we can only pray Fellaini and Fletcher come good for us for the remaining games.

Smalling has been our best defender this season

Yeah I agree he has saved us with his height and header clearances many times but his passing is so awful and makes rash decisions in the box when making quick reflex passess. He needs to improve or he needs to be replaced IMO.

05 Feb 2014 06:42:32
Hey I'm new 2 register but have been following the site for a long time
Firstly I feel moyes is incapable of playing with new tactics and scared also to try, why does continue to play 4 4 2 against team like stoke expecting crosses in the air to beat shawcross or huth it doesn't make any sense also 14 games to go and 7 points to catch it seems bit challenging speshally as we win 1 and lose 1 I don't feel moyes is tactically any good because if he was I'm sure he would have tried the 3 players behind rvp just like chelsea do I've jus been dissapointed with the play this year and people taking the mick out the champions

04 Feb 2014 23:54:42
I fully expect at least 5 new signings to help reshape a new team in the summer. A lot of people are banding about the names of Marco Reus, Lucas Moura, Di Maria etc - but has anyone considered Griezmann? I think he has the potential to be something special and is one of the few players to get into double figures for goals from the wings. Kagawa, Nani and one of Young/Valencia out with Griezmann in? We would then have options of Mata, Griezmann, Januzaj, Rooney, Welbeck, RVP, Young etc.

Yup agree Fresh Reus or Griezmann would be great for us. I hear there is a young lad from Cardiff who ain't bad either Zaha or something.

Agreed, seems silly that Zaha never got a chance, maybe there was something personal behind it. Hopefully he shines at Cardiff and then comes in for us next year. I think Moura and Reus are unattainable and therefore Griezmann is the best choice. We have been linked with Ricardo Alvarez in the press recently but I can't think of something better than Griezmann.