Manchester United Banter Archive February 05 2015

05 Feb 2015 14:12:22
Beast totally agree on Herrera we spent ages watching him, then totally balls up buying him, then we do buy him then we don't play him, we wouldn't be in the cup if it wasn't for that cracking goal against Yeovil. Hr keeps things ticking over in midfield, keeps the pace up, always looks for the ball, can score. I hope LVG isn't picking him and shaw because woody bought them!
I hope we aren't in for laporte at some stage because Herrera won't be giving us a good report

05 Feb 2015 15:18:02
Actually a good piece on MEN site about it.

Cheers Eric, I'll have a read.

05 Feb 2015 09:42:12
hi all, does anybody actually know why herrera and to some extent januzaj are not getting the game time their obvious talents deserve ? i thought one of LVGs best assets was his use of youth, and before you all say, i know mcnair and co have been used, but is that only do to defensive frailties ?
i was chuffed to bits when i saw that LVG was coming to united with his attacking style and use of youth, but i cannot help but feel underwhelmed by our style of football at the minute. the arrogance and other parts of his madness was expected as i knew a little about him in the first place, but i'm starting to think that he possibly under estimated the premierships pace and power. for me ticka tacka style possession football doesn't really work in the prem, you've only got to look at what arsenal have won in the last 10 years.

I can understand Januzaj, he has Mata, ADM, Rooney to get ahead of in one way or another because of the formation. The chances he had earlier in the season he hasn't taken, although he looked ok against Leicester and Cambridge. He should have been loaned out this season with no Europe so he could get a full season of game time.

Herrera - it's ludicrous that he isn't playing, he has been great since he signed when played and I suppose we have to assume he has rattled LVG in some way as many people seem to allude to. He would be my first player down on the team sheet, that is how valuable I see him - when he plays our tempo increases twice over and we look much better.

05 Feb 2015 10:58:43
Beast,

It has taken a long time but finally we agree. What concerns me the most about Herrera is that he appears to fit the exact style LVG wants to play, quick passing and moving and always looking for the ball, he in theory should be one of the first players LVG looks to put down on the team sheet.

As Herrera is due in court over match fixing it makes me wonder whether LVG is protecting him or feels his mind isn't in it, we have heard nothing of unrest from Herrera and he is saying all the right things in interviews, which makes you think something else must be going on. I have no knowledge of this so it is just a guess really, but it does seem extremely strange to me that he is not playing him regularly.

If Herrera and his club were found guilty of match fixing I am unsure whether there would be a ban for him and maybe LVG doesn't want him to be a major part of our team if he is going to have to miss a number of games (again I am unsure if it is even possible that he gets banned, just another suggestion as to why).

Lvg has told everyone who is listening why certain players are or aren't getting picked.

He has to set the team up in the manner he feels is best to get the results he needs, and atm regardless of what you think of our style of play or how other teams are performing he has us in 3rd place with only City and Chelsea ahead of us so he is doing something right.

Either way the system he has decided to use means the players are all expected to do their share of defensive work. Januzaj isn't very good defensively, he is a winger or a No.10. Now we are playing a system that has no wingers so he is competing with Rooney, Mata and Di Maria for the No.10 spot, so its hardly surprising that he is losing out in that battle most weeks. If you read the quotes from Januzaj himself he points all this out.

As for Herrera, well i would assume LvG sees something different in training that we don't see in matches. Recently he said he doesn't pick the team the players do with their performances in training. So if Herrera isn't being picked i would suggest maybe his attitude to training isn't what LvG demands? Also LvG used to be a teacher and as such views education as something very important. If the players aren't showing a willingness to listen and learn from him then will soon find themselves on the outside looking in.

So to me even though I really rate Herrera and think he is our best midfielder, the reasons for him not playing seem fairly obvious.

Shappy that seems to make some sense i suppose with herrera.
the style we play seems to worry me a little to be honest. don't get me wrong i am in no way trying to suggest lvg should leave or be sacked, i guess i just expected more

Also beast he defo should of sent januzaj out on loan this season, the boy needs game time

The match fixing thing in Spain is a tricky issue. But as for Herrera potentially being banned, I seriously doubt it could happen. Without much knowledge of the case i would expect the team that purposefully lost the game would be the ones most in danger of sanctions rather than the team who won and thus avoided relegation. If they had made an approach to Levante to throw away the game then i suspect that it wouldn't have been made by the players. I think Herrera's only real involvement in it was that he played in a game that was fixed, whether he knew that or not will be the issue.

I would suspect if this was having an effect on why LvG wasn't picking him then i would expect it is more to distance the club from a potential match fixing scandal. If Herrera is a key member of the team the press will really go for him and the club as a result, if he is a bit part player who only gets a game here and there then its not such a big story and as such will blow over rather quickly and quietly.

That is a more likely scenario imo.

To translate Shappy for the laymen here. Herrera isn't being picked because (a) van Gaal doesn't like his attitude, (b) Herrera isn't following his instructions to the letter in training and/or games, or (c) Herrera hasn't fully accepted that van Gaal is the ultimate authority on football technique and tactics.

As far as I'm concerned Herrera is fits perfectly with the type of philosophy [sic] that van Gaal keeps banging on about: excellent ball retention, excellent movement, and excellent work rate. I think that most people would agree that he has been one of our most consistent performers when played in midfield. But, and here's where that massive throbbing ego comes in, van Gaal has a personal problem with the lad.

It might be down to attitude in training, but seeing how highly they thought of him at Athletic, and how hard he works in games, I would wager that it's a clash of personalities with van Gaal. And that is the biggest flaw in van Gaal's character as a manager. If Fergie or Jose have a player they particularly like but he is necessary to the team, they will try to find a way to accommodate them (within reason). Now, Fergie often made them pay when he didn't need them anymore, but he recognised that you had to allow for some variation in attitude and behaviour for the good of the team. For van Gaal it's his way or the highway. At the moment he is punishing Herrera for not behaving exactly how he would like. But in truth he is punishing the team by robbing them of someone who could be a key player.

Danny careful remember lvg can do no wrong .

Having no knowledge of the issue myself (hence the original post) that is what lines my head was along in the first place danny. something is defo a miss that's for sure

05 Feb 2015 12:18:00
Danny,

'At the moment he is punishing Herrera for not behaving exactly how he would like'

How exactly do you know this? I threw a couple of theories in there but made it clear I have no idea whether they are true, Shappy also threw a few theories into the mix, so we have about 6 different options as to why, but you seem fairly adamant in that post that it is due to a personality clash, which we appear to have no proof of. Unless you know something we don't?

Herrera in interviews always comes across as a really nice guy and seems genuinely chuffed to be playing for United, so I can't imagine he is causing issues in the dressing room etc, but obviously there is some kind of issue.

jred,

Your famous one line posts I presume are to try and provoke a reaction, but once again, I am pretty sure nobody here has said LVG has done nothing wrong. I will leave it at that.

It may well be that LvG has some personal issue with him. Sadly if that is the case then it might mean a short stay at our club for Herrera.

But Herrera was a first choice pick during pre season, he was first choice at the start of the season then after his rib injury he has never regained his place. At the time LvG mentioned something about Fellaini adding more physicality to the team and that he has found that that is important in England. But one of the reasons we looked poor with the 352 was that the two deeper midfielders were supposed to drop deeper and cover for the wide player when they pushed forward. It is something Rooney has done every time he has played in midfield to the detriment to his game, yet Herrera was less diligent in his defensive covering when an attack was being pushed down his side of the pitch, he followed his natural instincts to join the attack that is why he has looked good when played as he has pushed forward and attacked in a manner we would like to see. but in doing so he left the right flank wide open to be attacked on the counter and it meant we were more dangerous going forward but became a liability defensively. LvG has kept mentioning the need for balance and control in a game. Herrera's natural attacking instincts have warmed him to us fans but unbalances LvG's system which he will not allow, unless Herrera shows he is more accepting of the role LvG wants him to play then his game time will remain limited.

Gds
Maybe not them actual words .
But reading some of the posts you would have to say some seem to argue that what ever is wrong its not lvg fault .

You back on negativity patrol

I think Shappy has it right here. It's not that he doesn't rate Herrera so much as he cannot fit him into the team and maintain his defensive plan. This speaks to the continuing unbalance in the squad. We cannot play all our best and most expensive players simultaneously because they all tend to play in the same positions while our more modest players have to be played incessantly.

It's a conundrum which allows for much debate as to what's the best team and formation. Whether they win or lose, this is not the case at Arsenal, City or Chelsea where the players fit more seamlessly into an established modus.

GDS,

What we do when we don't know is look at the evidence and make an educated guess.

First, how has Herrera performed on the pitch?

He's been one of our better and more consistent performers, and has played well aside from one or two occasions.

Second, does he fit with the tactics.

He retains the ball well, has good movement, and he works hard (even defensively). He doesn't sit deep as Shappy says, and that could explain his absence from the 5-3-2 formation. But he is clearly one of the best suited players to the diamond.

Third, how much game time has he had?

Well a lot at the start of the season and then there appeared to be a big shift. That can partly be explained by injury, but when he isn't even been given a start in a cup game against a league two side, questions are going to be asked. And they were asked .

Finally, what has the manager said?

Van Gaal point blank refused to answer questions on why Herrera wasn't being picked. When asked similar questions about Falcao he brought up performance in training, i.e. if Falcao improved in training he would be picked, and he has been. The silence on Herrera tells us a lot. If it was to do with match performance, style of play or performance in training van Gaal could have easily justified himself (and he has done so in the past). The fact that he hasn't made any comment on why an expensive recent signing is being sidelined should indicate that this isn't a decision based on ability or suitability.


Looking at the evidence what conclusion can we come to. A player that has been playing well and could add a lot to the team is being sidelined without any public explanation. Looking back on van Gaal's history and similar situations, the most rational explanation would be that Herrera has done something to annoy van Gaal. It might be that he's making an example of Herrera to ensure that other players don't step out of line, or something else. The net result is the same: someone who could be a key player for us has been benched for most the season without any reasonable explanation.

Danny I understand your logic there but still feel your jumping the gun a little bit. Sometimes we see what we want/expect to see and we try and make the pieces fit by ignoring obvious other factors.

For example when LvG has had a falling out with a player he has never been shy of mentioning it, he has also pretty much banished them to play with the reserves.

He has done neither with Herrera, he still has him on the bench and he still plays him under certain circumstances. He wouldn't do that if he had fallen out with him.

I would wager the he isn't playing him for either tactical reasons or to keep him out of the spot light until this match fixing case has blown over.

But until we get more information then we are all just guessing.

Maybe LVG knows the case against Herrera is weak so he doesn't want to talk about it.

I doubt he would say:

"I do not like the fact he is connected with match fixing, I do not like that I was not involved in the deal, I do not like how he wants to attack and I want to defend - basically I just don't like him"

I know I have my own personal dislikes that wouldn't make sense to other people, they wouldn't stand up to close scrutiny but I just know in my gut I don't like somebody or something and therefore I make decisions based on that dislike, however I skirt around the reason in public so it doesn't make me seem petty.

Maybe that is why LVG is quiet, he can't justify it logically he just doesn't like him or the issues.

Stubborn and deluded!

05 Feb 2015 00:50:05
Never been a big fan of hummels. For me far too many negatives than positives with him.

Lacks pace which would be exposed in the premier league.
We are looking to add pace so another non starter.
His injury record is not reliable.
His turn of pace is poor. I do not think suited to epl or man utd.

He is a leader and has good passing, positioning and ball control but for 40 odd million from what I have seen he is overrated.
I would much rather bring in say garay who would be cheaper and as an argentine would be better alongside rojo.

05 Feb 2015 05:31:03
Imagine Rio and Vidic playing together. Fergie must be a magic man, for one was Serbian and one was English! Since when do players have to be of the same nationality to play together?

Ronaldo and Rooney were awful together, Bergkamp and Henry even worse!

Hummels being German would have no effect on his partnership with anybody.

He makes his trade by defending well, not by being able to catch somebody up, heck if that's all you're looking for, let's bring in Usain Bolt, or would Shaun Wright-Phillips be alright aswell?

Vidic had very poor pace in his game, yet he was unbelievable, Ferdinand also had poor pace in his later years, yet done perfectly well.

Should we bring in a freestyler to play on the wing? Solely based on his ability to beat a man with the ball, he'd be perfect.

Scouts will have done their homework, if Hummels is the man we go for, best believe he will be good enough.

You must mean like the scouts did with Zaha, Kagawa, Buttner and Bebe?

I watched Hummels last night. He was average. Dortmund need their big players to step up and the captain is most definitely not leading by example. £20-25 million I'd say go for it. £40 million plus I'd say it's lunacy.

The whole Dortmund team was below average against ten men, so if hummels was average that's good. If BvB get relegated, hummels will come cheaper, as it stands missing out on CL will reduce his price tag as he'd probably want out.
Did you guys see Hummels and Weidenfeller apologizing to the fans?

05 Feb 2015 09:38:24
Loko, which one of those are categorized as one of the best in the world?

None. Hummels is, and for a good reason at that.

05 Feb 2015 11:59:22
Beast would tell you its the managers fault here for not being top and would like klopp here because its nothing to do with him that his team are woefully under performing. Double standards?

For the record I am totally against double standards, Moyes/LVG treatment is total double standards.

I wouldn't hire Klopp in the first place so I don't know where you get this from Ken - maybe you are confusing me with somebody else.