Manchester United Banter Archive October 05 2013

05 Oct 2013 22:18:50
We may of had a terrible start to this years campaign, but we have to look at the table. We are only 6 points off top (could be 8 after Arsenal) which considering how we have played that isn't half bad. Without the hope Januzaj has given us and how he has played today I think we would all be very miserable. Now with Fellaini out I really hope we give Anderson a chance, his last chance. I think he could do it for us. However now we have a space next to Carrick I really wish that we had Powell at the club still. If Januzaj can have this impact then so can he.

Still a shame though about Zaha and Kagawa. Neither get playing time. I think Zaha is being 'trained up' and will be thrown into the ring but to be honest I don't see Kagawa having a future here. If Dortmund want him back then he will get that move, I just hope we get a good price or a player like Subotic.

05 Oct 2013 21:49:20
Im not one too bad mouth players, but if there was ever any proof that cleverly just isn't good enough it was at the end of the game tonight, a player with anything about him would have done one of two things, Hit it from 50 yards into an open net, or played it too welbeck who was completely free in the middle. No wonder welbeck had a outburst at him! there is just no way cleverly should be starting, and with fellaini injured, I think its time to give kagawa some serious playing time! I mean okay he will be out of position paired with carrick, but there is no way on hells earth that he can be any worse than clevz, and atleast he will be playing through the middle rather than on the wing!

I thought he played well today.

I thought he played well today too

Behave. I'm sorry but your logic is way off. Cleverley had a decent game today.

TK

How did he have a good game. He hardly touched the ball in the first half. When was the last time he took a man on and took a shot. Never seen a midfielder like this in the last 30 years at United.

Please explain, what are his strengths, shooting, dribbling, passing, physical presence, leadership?

Christ we were playing a team with 1 point and at the bottom of the table and bewildered by how low we can go in terms of accepting mediocre. I agree compared to anderson and giggs he is better but that is not saying much is it.

I said he had a decent game, Shahram. It's easy to talk about his shooting and dribbling etc but there have been a couple of games of late where the pace of our game, of our passing and our movement has suffered. That is where Cleverley helps. Yesterday he may not have made any goal line clearances or had any blistering shots but he was steady, consistent and, once we got past the first 15 minutes, he kept the flow of the game going at a pace that, as the 2nd half showed, Sunderland couldn't keep up with.

Shahram, are you describing Cleverley or Carrick? When was the last time Carrick dribbled past players and had a shot?

Sydney!
and whos saying carrik is worlds best midfielders?
he is just playing because we have no options. to be honest.
if we have midfielders
of xavi, iniesta, febregas, bousquets, thiago.
where do u see him? I see him at last

or say
pirlo, vidal, ashamoh, pogba, marchisio?
still last.
or
martinez, shwinstiger(spell)kroos, gustavo,? still last.

doesnt it say anything about carriks quallity?

Sydney

You are way off, Carrick actually distributes the ball around and has enough tactical awareness to switch play from one flank to another. Cleverly is not half the player Carrick is.

Seriously what does cleverly do, have you seen him even hit a 30 yard pass which is not that difficult for professional footballers mate. Everyone raves about it when Rooney does it, watch the Italian league or spans league there is about 50 guys who hit that pass but we are so starved for some quality in midfield that when Rooney does it, we hail him as a great passer.

I know you like this guy and will stick up for him as someone said he is a worse version of Catermore, who is actually a physical player and puts a foot in. On this basis we would be better off buying Catermore and playing him.

Shahram, it's not that I "like him", I just do not think he deserves the criticism he gets on here. He is a scapegoat for SAF's neglect of the midfield. Nothing more, nothing less. People conveniently forget that he has been playing out of position since he joined MU's senior team.

Sydney

No argument that our midfield has been neglected but most high quality midfielder have what I call a turn of direction and pivot when they see a crowded space, he does not have that and runs the same way the ball goes.

No nice drag backs, no stop and turn and mostly plays with his back toward the opposition and if you play that way you have to be able to turn away and see what is in front of you to make a telling pass.

It is hard to explain but if you watch a lot of the great midfielders they can operate in tight spaces by finding passing lanes and are generally facing the opposition.

I am not saying we should get rid off him but he is not the answer and we need 2 quality signings.

Given our style of play the team needs midfield players who can take pressure off the back four by bringing the ball out and at the moment our only outlet is the defenders hoofing the ball upfield to strikers who have 3 guys draped all over them.

Shahram, I agree with that. Perhaps if Cleverley was trained as a midfielder from a young age like that of Wilshere, he may be better, but he has had to adapt over a couple of weeks due to MU's failures in the transfer market. Did you know when MU missed out on Nasri, then Sneijder, they had special training sessions to prepare Cleverley for a midfield berth for that season? They used one half of the football field, gave Cleverley and three others the bibs and he and three others had to play against the rest of the squad. He had to keep the ball and pass it amongst the four of them. It was a way of preparing him for that position. Two weeks later he was in midfield with Anderson and they were doing fine, not bad for a left forward. Then came his injury and ever since he has been wary of getting stuck in. I agree about needing two midfielders and I have never been against signing them. Herrera would have been great, but Thiago would have been better.

05 Oct 2013 21:12:02
Im rarely out to speak badly against players but tonight I was struck by how poor Cleverley is. I didn't even hear his name mentioned in commentary untill the end where he ran through when Westwood went up for Sunderland.
Unfortunately I think we are stuck with him as Fellaini is now injured and for some reason both Moyes and previously Fergie only saw Kagawa fit for the left hand side.
While we are on it does anyone know why Zaha ain't getting a look in? I read earlier about rumours regarding him and Moyes daughter. Maybe they aren't just rumours.

05 Oct 2013 21:00:09
Good to get the win, we did not play that badly but confidence only comes with winning and there were nervous players out there. Vidic looked like he had one foot tied to the other. Cleverly played ok he did not give the ball away unlike some. Januzaj was excellent obviously. The substitutions were not defensive, they were like for like. Carrick was his usual self. Rooney's touch and passing were awful.
The second half performance was very good. Dominant in possession and good movement. If we hadn't let in the goal early it could have been very different.but a win is a win and a win away from home is good. Sir Alex would have been happy with that.

I thouht Raphael was brilliant.
Hope his injury is not too bad.
And what a save from DeGea

05 Oct 2013 20:32:28
very happy we managed to get the 3 points BUT we should not be happy i'm not sure what game Moyes was watching but for him to come out and say we played well just shows how s**t he his we have not played well once this season so far and today we had to rely on an 18yr old to do something special to get us out of trouble.

Moyes doesn't seem to have any tactical nous he just sits on the sideline and hopes the team sort themselves out why won't he make changes to try and effect the game after 55/60 mins I would of taken off nani and rvp as they done nothing today but he just sits there doing nothing and then comes out with comments after the game saying we played well when we were awwful I said in a post before the game we would struggle and will continue to do so while Moyes keeps playing 442 it just doesn't work in modern football its like having Mike Bassett as bloody manager.

The last point of this post is about the body language of our squad something is seriously wrong behind the scenes because in everygame so far nobody seems interested I fully understand and expect players to have dips of form and bad patches etc it happens to all players but when it is happening to a whole squad at the same time then questions must be asked and I for one am not buying that everything is fine like all the players and management keep saying .

Ive said from day 1 moyes was a good manager at everton but for us he is no good and will only drag us down in the end yes we won today but the question is with moyes tactics will we see another straight after. the club is to big for him and all these people who keep saying give him time do we really want to.

You guys have to stop this nonsense of blaming Moyes for everything. It is the players and he can't do much about how we are defending as a back four or the fact that none of our established wingers or strikers are playing well.

I am of the view he should drop one of the strikers go with a 5 man midfield, however pretty sure he will get slagged by people here just the same for not having Rooney or RVP on the pitch at the same time.

As far as the body language of the squad goes, it is not great because they are not playing well as a team and they look frustrated.

The only decisions moyes should be making with him and his back room staff his to whos boots he is cleaning and which staff of his are washing the kit is football is the worst I have seen in years we were lucky to beat sunderland and yet people keep saying give him a chance and we looked better in the second half to behonest seen better football on sunday down local park and this is only going to get worse

We can blame players but its not the players who sort out the tactics and pick the team moyes is looking more and more clueless every game he is not the right manager and most people know this he needs to go back to a team like everton again were he did well and get us a manager who doesn't look clueless and take his backroom staff with him because otherwise it will all end up in tears

And to gcu I understand some utd fans want to give moyes a chance but me for one doesn't he sends out lindgard out on loan and zaha nowere to be seen and them 2 were the players of pre-season then he plays clev and kagawa not even getting a sniff and when he has he gets subbed at half time, and he's playing players like crapbeck and nani who everyone knows he is totally useless, he plays anderson who is just as useless the list goes on but we should give clueless moyes time

05 Oct 2013 20:22:19
That was a good away win against bottom of the table, managerless Sunderland.
Can't really fault Moyes on the team selection but I think even if you gave him a Ferrari he'd drive it like a Fiesta! (he will never change his playing style so we'd better get used to this)

Unitedred71
That's it with your post you've given the game away.you have no understanding of how a team/clubs season can change on one moment.If we had put lack lustre performances in and individuals where showing no respect for David NEGATIVE!then I for one would be concerned but if you can't see the effort the squad are putting in to prove that not only is he the man for the job but what it means to be part of Man Utd, SAF as left with a legacy unlike L, pool who became cock sure and complacent our club will continue challenging the desire and attitude is in their DNA so you carry on banging the drum whilst I watch the club produce young talent and prove you and the media wrong.
Long live the King

I think we must be watching different teams! But I'm glad you're happy with what you're watching. Glazers will love supporters like you:-)

05 Oct 2013 20:15:59
Opinions and facts (haha yeah right) is januzaj going to stay.

05 Oct 2013 19:53:52
wow guy's, we barely survived sunderland.had they been a little lucky, they should have scored more then 1 goal at the firsthalf and u can see it clearly that rvp is not getting service, we needed kawaga insted of welbeck and valencia and where is zaha.overall a ok win good job lads ggmu zee:)

I agree this is worrying.If we continue struggling to get wins against teams like Sunderland then I'm afraid we'll have to say goodbye to the league by Christmas.

Also when we scored the 2 goals, Moyes immediately brough on Valencia, Welbeck and then Smalling.Instead of pushing for a third to finish them off, he opted for defending.Against one of the worst sides in the epl. I don't think this would have happened after Ferguson.

Nicolas

I can understand fair criticism of the manager but all the substitutions made sense and they were either to defensively shore things up or players looking like they have picked up an injury(rafael).

I think you will find Rafa went off injured hence Smalling on plus I don't think we struggled that much 63% possession is good, defensively we were poor and need a CB duo that's consistent
But Vidic looked poor and last game Rio did I can certainly see a new CB in january

05 Oct 2013 19:31:30
I have no idea why Nani gets any playing time, what a frustrating player to watch and I can only imagine what its like to play with him. It took an 18 yr old to save our season. He has more balls than most of the team.

05 Oct 2013 19:24:42
Thought we were better tonight, defence did well on the whole. Jones got better as the game went on and I think he will become a great CB. Cleverley isn't good enough to be a starter but has plenty of energy and a willing runner so deserves a squad place. Nani very poor again, RVP not really at the races still and Rooney was poor, bad first touch and got a booking because of it, passing not the best and shooting wayward. Januzaj was the best player on the field by a million miles, he is so comfortable on the ball and is going to be a great so let's get him a big 5 year deal on the table now.

Over all, happier tonight than in recent weeks and jope we can go on to better things.

As per my Syd reply, I completely agree Bren

Well said Brendan I agree I thought there were more positives than negatives today and Nani played very well(imo)

05 Oct 2013 18:52:18
Pay him whatever he wants. Awesome player. So confident.

Only player who has the guts to run down the middle and dribble past players. Imagine if he had a better set of midfielders around him how good he will be.

Pay and sign him to 6 years. Hope we score a 3rd and put this thing to bed. Rooney very poor today.

Everyone knew Adnan's class and silky skills, what I felt was amazing was his strength on the ball. They way he was able to hold the ball, superb, . Take note Shinji Kagawa!

Rooney was poor first half, a little better second half and helped us see it through. But Van persie was p!ss poor. He looks woefully out of form.

Deeps.

Deeps they were both poor.

05 Oct 2013 18:28:13
I've being watching united for 30 years now and am a worried man. I feel the jury still out on jones, looks awkward and silly on the ball. Cleverly not good enough for united. Rvp looks off and Rooney doing just enough. Kags has to play too. How much longer fans can we take of this mediocre football too. No imagination and no midfield. Will moyes last 6 years thoughts

Totally agree on all points. Jones plays like a headless chicken and cleverly clearly has a phobia of passing the ball forward. I can't relieve we signed jones over Rafael Varane. What a mistake. Lucky we won today or mr Moyes may have been in a bit of bother.

05 Oct 2013 18:19:46
Ah. here we go again.

If we lose today and 3 more before Christmas then Moyes has to go, we can't afford to finish outside the top four.

I feel like I'm back In the 80's watching a Ron Atkinson side.

And 3 more? We'll be in a relegation fight if that's the state we're in.

Honestly it doesn't seem improbable. Scary.

I may be over reacting a little though.

If moyes can bring barkley to our squad he might as well end the season

Lol to all of ya

05 Oct 2013 18:09:36
I'll just take one game at the time. No expectations. Maybe UEFA places are possible, because the way we play, anyone can beat us this season, I mean ANY TEAM. Shame.

05 Oct 2013 17:12:55
Pleased for once with the team selection. Looks like me may show a bit more attacking intent than we have so far. Glad to see Jones and Vidic together. Fellaini must be injured not to make the squad? So Clevs comes in. Front 4 looks exciting. As you all know I would like Kagawa to get a full game, but in his absence I am delighted to see Januzaj start. Rooney are RVP are a given when both fit. All in all looks very promising. Hope I haven't spoken too soon. No excuses today lads.

I'm happy as well, let's hope for some fireworks. Excited.

4-0 now, initially thought 1-0

You better low your expectations!

05 Oct 2013 16:52:30
Pretty happy with the team today, but where and what the hell is going on with Zaha? Not even on the bench, why are we at least not giving him a chance? Something's up there surely

That's a good line up. I think he's going for the jugular today. it's got a good mix to it. UNITED!

05 Oct 2013 16:26:31
If United win and Fellaini scores I'm wearing my Fellaini wig all week at work!
Come on you reds!

Fellaini will not be scoring.

05 Oct 2013 15:58:25
Januzaj, Zaha and Fabio have all travelled with the squad today so fingers crossed Adnan and Wilf get some good game time.

05 Oct 2013 13:58:16
Today is a really important day to get 3 points. A win gives a lot of confidence to the entire squad, whether it is obtained by flowing football or a dour defensive effort. Sunderland have made a dire start to the season so a draw or win for them would give tremendous confidence to the next opponents. Confidence is the key to success. If you are confident and your opponent is not, then you have a great deal more freedom to impose your play on the game. But the other way round - help!
I only hope that the long trip back from the Ukraine and the disappointment of losing a late goal will not have tired out the team. Oh and please Mr Moyes, can Evans play instead of Ferdinand?
Red Setter

04 Oct 2013 20:25:34
Ed's, do you believe that United will go in for any big name players in January and if yes who? Cheers, Adam {Ed002's Note - "Big name" is subjective Adam - I suspect an effort will be made to bring in a couple of players, perhaps three, as I have explained.}

05 Oct 2013 11:07:50
Match day and I am not sure what to expect

This is actually a high pressure game for Moyes, fail to win it and I fear for our season. Indeed the top four could become a difficult task because losing or failing to win today would likely spread a lack of confidence and make each coming game even bigger. Draw or lose and we don't know whether Moyes can turn it around because he hasn't demonstrated it before. Even an unconvincing win may not be enough to relieve the pressure but a win is the minimum required today. Each game not won will see the pressure rise and possibly pressure is what is making him say some odd comments. Saying we don't have enough world class talent is totally accurate but should have been said in July and sorted out in the transfer window. Why say it when the timing it sounds more like an excuse? Does he not think Fellaini is "world class" because he bought him.

What we need to see today is United controlling the game, stamping some authority on the play and taking the game to Sunderland. If we score first then we must not try to hold what we have and drop deeper as we did on Wednesday. We have rarely looked like scoring from open play but Moyes needs his team to show more intent. We seem to make sure we don't lose rather than the "we will beat you no matter what" belligerence previously. I was interested in Lou Macari's comments this week in which he built today's game up as very important for Moyes after the performance of the players in our last two games. Macari is usually very much a club man but the emphasis on the game and how Moyes gets them to play surprised me slightly. This isn't Everton and we now need to see improvement or confidence will sap both in the team and in how the manager sets up the team. Front foot is needed with a win the minimum requirement.

Sunderland in recent years has been a tough place to go and teams rarely are on the front foot, but they have sold almost all of their dangerous players and bought a load of Italians who will need time to gel. They are still managerless and they are still without their best player (Fletcher), so there couldn't be a better time to play them IMO.

We have to go with Smalling and Vidic. We need to start playing with a settled back four. I would expect mad Pat and Rafa as fullbacks. I would go with Carrick and Fellaini in midfield. Rooney in the hole and RvP upfront. Nani & Valencia on the wings. I am looking forward to seeing how Valencia and Rafael do together.

If we are doing well I would like to see Januzaj get 30 minutes. This player really excites me.

I hope Januzaj gets a start (unlikely I know) but sticking with the same ineffective players (Young/Nani/Valencia etc) is not going to help.

The whole team needs freshening up and while I can understand that DM wants experience in there, it certainly hasn't worked.

Sydney!

no offence but don't you think u write this statement" difficult place to go and do. " too much in recent times?
ok tell me according to you which place is easy to go and get sure points considering current run of games?

05 Oct 2013 07:52:12
Just a question if we finish out side top 4 or 5 end of season .should moyes still be given time.
What about if he had two seasons of no champions league football?
Arsenal have managed champions league each season with an average team.if we don't why couldn't we.
After all we beat them 6-2 last season 1st game?

We won't finish outside the top four.

When you post facts that are untrue unfortunately it makes the rest of your post seem daft. We beat them 8-2 2 seasons ago and it wasn't first game.

Moyes will get 2 seasons to prove he is the man for the job

Jred

2 seasons is no guarantee mate. It depends on lot's of things. I think he will need to demonstrate than he has things under control.

God could we start any worse, another defensive blunder.

C'mon boys need to show some character now and beat these guys quite easily.

God created
I think they will give him a year ti find his feet and a summer to get some players in, then he better deliver

Jred

If we have a howler of a season, do you think they would trust him with 80 to 100 million to go buy players?

04 Oct 2013 23:46:27
i don't now how anybody else feels but if kagawa goes back to dourtmond spelling do you think any of there players would want to come to us and german players in general would give us a miss

05 Oct 2013 04:12:06
If he was to go back we may be able to get a Dortmund player involved in the deal. Personally I feel Reus would be ideal but he is a Dortmunder and chose them over Bayern so he could be hard to get. Gundogan may be the easier target, with Sahin back at the club and with some good youngsters coming through such as Leitner and Bittencourt they maybe more open to allowing Gundogan to leave.

But its all if and maybes atm.

Maybe it would help if Moyes learnt German so he could just ring up their players and sweet talk them into signing ala Wenger with ozil?

this does touch on a more serious point in that ozil cited wengers call as one of the main reason's he signed for arsenal. I seem to remember Ferguson applied the personal touch on a few occasions to get the player.

I wonder how much moyes direct dealing moyes will seek with his transfer targets even if its just a phone call or better still a cup of tea with their mum!

he comes over as quite a personable bloke and the reports iv heard are that he's well liked in football circles. perhaps if he gets a bit more involved in the transfer dealings he'll stand a better chance of getting his man.

I also think he needs to be more demanding of his CEO. Woodward let him down with some pretty pathetic negotiating this summer. Moyes needs to twist Woodward's arm to stop faffing and get in some serious attention grabbing bids for the players he needs.

I'm sure this will all come as he grows into the job. I think the guy has the strength of personality to make this work but he needs time to adjust to what in undoubtedly is a big step up. not only that, he has some serious work to do in reshaping the squad.

I'll give Moyes all the support I can but what I won't abide is Boring, negative football because there's just no need for it.

I do see Subotic being a possibility. Much will depend on how high Dortmund value Subotic and Kagawa. I would say a straight swap would be fair, but I'm sure MU and Dortmund would want a little cash going their way. I also think much will depend on what happens with Rooney. That still isn't resolved.

Gundogan will be in the last year of his contract next summer ( I think ) but will be a wanted man kags could swing it in our favaour.
Really hope we make a move for subotic