Manchester United Banter Archive April 06 2013

 

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06 Apr 2013 22:43:27
Eds, wondering on whether you think Baines will replace Evra this year or will Evra get another season? And also do you think Ferdinand will sign a new deal? {Ed007's Note - I don't think Baines will replace Evra any year Fresh! Personally I think Ferdinand would leave if AF gave it his blessing and it was a move to the MLS, I've always thought Ferdinand would like a move there to help his business.}

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I agree with Bond. I don't see Baines as an option due to his age and I don't see Ferdinand moving to another PL club.

TK-Red

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07 Apr 2013 12:10:49
I think Rio could be tempted to go back to West Ham and the owners are ambitious and would think it a coup but I think wages could be an issue. Other than that I think its either go to america or one more year here. He's played well this season and I think another year of mentoring Smalling and slowly being phased out could be beneficial. As for Baines, well I think last year was his big shot and it didn't come off. Evra has had his best season for years. Ok there is still lapses, but this summer I don't think left back is as big a priority as it was last summer. Buttner is improving and we'll have Fabio back so I don't see is doing anything with the defence till after the world cup. MrE

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Cheers ed, who do you see being the replacement in the future? Digne, Willems or Alex Sandro are the standout players for me.

Fresh! {Ed007's Note - I think Fabio will be given a chance to claim the LB spot as his own before the club sanctions spending millions on the position.}

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I'd like to think that is the case. Rafael & Fabio as first choice full backs is ideal, they'd work wonderfully well in tandom.

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Any truth in the rumour that rio might be working for BT next year?
Djay

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06 Apr 2013 23:01:25
Right abit of a change in disscussion here.

Were in the final stages of the season and I think enough of the season has passed to give a fair judgement.

So how do you guys feel Kagawa has done this season?

I think he's had a solid first year while not being spectactular. I had high hopes that he'd come into the team and revolutionise us over night, but that was a silly idea and just wishful thinking. And probably an unfair expectation to put on him.

He has been abit unlucky that he was playing well then got injuried and it took a while for him to full recover from that. It's hard to come back from injury when your also trying to settle into a new team. But that said in no game that he's played have I felt that he's let us down, his work rate and passing have been top class. I feel he has suffered from a lack of movement and imagination from the players he is playing with. The poor form of the winger have negated a lot of his cutting passes as there is no one making those probing runs for him to pass too.

Now in the pass few games he has played has anyone else noticed that it is when he comes off that we have been put under the cosh by the opposition teams. Without his ability to keep the ball higher up the pitch we have been flooded by the opposition which has led to many nervy finishes to games. This is IMO his biggest asset to us this season, and will be until we either buy players who on his wavelength or our players adjust to his.

He is a similar player to both Mata and Silva, both of whom took alittle while to settle into the pace and power of the premier league. And with this in mind and with our players getting more used to how he plays, then it is easy to see why Sir Alex feels we'll see the best of Shinji next season.

Over all i'd give him a 7 out of 10, solid enough but room to improve.

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Agreed, he's done OK but not great. His injury didn't help but the main problem is that our playing style doesn't suit him yet and we heven't had enough technical abilty around him to complement his skills. 1 or 2 good signings and a fresh preseason and I think we'll see good things from Kagawa next season. Hope so at least!

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Totally agree that injury didn't help. But we've got to change our system if we're to conquer Europe again. Kagawa is played out of position a lot and we keep playing with two wingers, which does not suit him.
If we insist on playing with two wingers, then we better go out and get the best two wingers around, Ronaldo and Bale, and neither is going to happen, so we have to start modernizing our style of play, but I'm not sure fergie will do that.

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07 Apr 2013 10:54:27
I think we are trying to change our tactics, but the same as when we are trying to change our personel it has to be evolution over revolution. If we changed 6 players in the first team in one go they they would take time to learn to play together and results would suffer for it. Well the same thing would happen if you got your team to suddenly try and play a totally different way. We have played a counter attacking style based on wing play for a long time, but we need to change to a style that is based on possession and the ability to play through teams rather than around them. If you tried to implement that change over night the players would struggle to adapt and as such the results would suffer and then our ability to challenge for titles would be effected. As such Sir Alex has to implement these changes over the course of a couple of seasons to keep that ability to get the results that will win us titles. It is Sir Alex's ability to make these changes and keeo the team winning which seperates him from all the rest.

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We are changing slowly to getting used to playing more one touch football with inverted wingers. Gotze would significantly add to that - Gotze, Kagawa & Rooney would be pretty good.

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07 Apr 2013 13:57:22
Fresh I honestly don't see Rooney here longterm. I don't think he's quite quick enough for what we're trying to do. He has two years left on his contract, we won't let him get to twelve months left but I also don't see us giving him a payrise or Rooney accepting a pay cut. This could be his last big contract as by the next time he'll be hitting 30. Also whereas when we had the last issues the thought of losing Rooney was unthinkable. Now I think we've spent this season preparing for the possibility. We've dropped him in games which before was unthinkable before. The signings of van Persie and Kagawa show we're looking to replace him. I think if we can't agree a deal we'll look to sell for the right price. One of the ed's has already been dropping cryptic hints about France. I can see us signing Lewandowski to replace him in the squad and bringing in someone else to play an inside forward role. MrE

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06 Apr 2013 19:29:17
Ed do you know which one of Garay and Dede is a higher priority for us?

Dan {Ed002's Note - Use the search function.}

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I don't think either is going to happen and it is the media making up stuff.

Garay has said he knows of no interest from United. I know we have scouts at the Benfica games and so far have been linked to half of their players. The only one missing is their water boy and travel agent, which should be coming out the closer we get to the summer.

Dede is a Brazilian International and I can't see what he will get out of a move like this to be rotated with potentially 6 to 7 other players a year before the world cup.


Shahram

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06 Apr 2013 17:32:07
Could it be a good time to play Stoke on their own turf? They are a tough side to score against although have conceded a fair few this season, but do not have any real goalscorers. I think regardless of the Monday result we can get at Stoke and cause them problems.

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I think your right Syd, there confidence looks shot. i'm sure I heard they have the lowest points title in the EPL in 2013.
Sounds like Villa totally dominated them today.

Red Daz

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Let's face it, they'll all have the game of their lives against us!

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Didn't see the game Red Daz, but from what I heard Begovic had a good game therefore Villa must have had more chances than they scored. I mentioned earlier in the season that Stoke have a very poor attack (wings and strikers). The amount of cash they have spent they should have better players in attack. I always thought with a back three of Begovic, Huth & Shawcross, all they needed was decent width and strikers, but they didn't do much in the summer. I think this is a good time to play Stoke, although I do worry Begovic may play a blinder as we are interested in him. We have nothing but the league to play for now so we must go all out against Stoke and I genuinely believe we will cause them problems. Fingers crossed anyway.

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Stoke didn't look at the races today, but what a cracker from the Villa lad!

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I never really worry about Stoke, I don't think they are that good - don't see why you're in slight fear. Its a tough place to go because its physical, but they can't score and have no wingers.

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Stoke are in free fall right now, we should attack and I think we will win comfortably

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06 Apr 2013 17:28:30
ok, monday is about making a statement and claiming back the city. I just really hope we play well and give it our all, last season we lied down and totally got outplayed and everyone just knew city would win, if city beat us but we give it our all then fair enough but I want to see the players really go for it and play out of their skins. there's been too many lack lustre appearances this year and let down inh the cups so this is time to let that go and show why we are 15 points clear currently.

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I have 2 bets on this game one on a draw and one on a city win unfortunately. I know this is not going to be popular on this site but that is the way I see it.

I am hoping for a draw even though we are better than even money for a win and any other time I would bet the farm on us.

If Vidic and Jones do not play, I not too optimistic on the results. I have a bad feeling we will see Giggs and don't think he is right for this sort of game.

Shahram

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06 Apr 2013 15:00:17
Hello Ed's
Seeing some of the recent posts about Strootman, I wonder if SAF has scouted him much. It seems that he has sent some to watch Rodriguez, Wanyama etc. And has personally scouted some too but Strootman never figured in those names. So What is the scouting activity around Strootman, Especially from United?
Cheers
RD27 {Ed004's Note - I'm not sure but I'm sure he would have been scouted quite a lot and Ed 2 thinks he is a likely transfer}

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06 Apr 2013 14:11:37
I was about to thank you AJH for pointing out (on the main page) that I had made a good point - then you went and spoilt it with your final comment which proved you were either joking or a slate loose

Puzzled

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Puzzled, I can't remember you ever making a good point to be he onset, you need to remind me

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Found it now. Your good point was that Johnson can't defend which I think we would all agree with. If you can't see the improvement in Rafael who is now a top quality full back, you need to watch even more United matches (if that's possible)

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06 Apr 2013 13:04:57
How has petrucci been getting on at Peterborough? Appreciate any comments on his progress!

Del Boy!

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Last I heard he was back at Carrington due to some injury.

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Injured, potentially for the rest of the season.

Mick

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Despite showing early talent. lots of injury has stopped his progress and its not getting any better so I don't think he will make a cut in the squad.

Rodio17

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06 Apr 2013 14:47:30
I think he'll be departing in the Summer, too injury prone. Wouldn't last in the english game.

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That's a shame, thought he could be a top player but seems injury-prone!

Thanks for the updates.

Del Boy!

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06 Apr 2013 09:50:57
Shappy, I've been thinking about the best squad / team debate. Here's a question for you. Would our current team (1st 11 plus subs) beat the team of '94, '99, or 08? I don't think they would. The only PL winning team they would complete against would be the '03 team. Not being disrespectful to our current players, they are doing incredibly well, but I still think we are a long way short of the heights we have reached in the last 20 years, And yes, I did see all those teams play regularly.

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My opinion hasn't changed on this subject. I believe this is by far our best Manchester United squad, but it's nowhere near our best first XI. I think we would beat the 94 & 99 teams three times out of five, but struggle against the 2008 team. Ronaldo being the main reason.

Sydney!

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06 Apr 2013 10:41:55
I know this will be hard to accept, but if you take your new additions this year, RVP, Kagawa and Buttner, the only one to make a real difference has been RVP and that was early on.

So if you go back to last season, look at your UCL showing and what happened against Athletico, also I'm not being funny but Citeh gave you a spanking as you did us and you all said how poor we must be. For Utd you have been poor all season. If your honest the Madrid draw played into your hands as in the whole Ronaldo thing, I'm sure most of you if truthful know you would of got beaten by the big guns left in it had you got through. Didn't agree with the sending off.

So what really is the big difference in this squad and last years, some one said it was up their with the best in Europe. Do you truly believe that when or if you've been watching the quarter finals.

You can't deny your current position and I'm not trying to but the rest of us have capitulated big time. The turning point for Citeh was playing that person Balotelli against you in the game at the Etihad. Add that to their pathetic summer transfers and sales.

They have played the better football again this year but its your results that count. Don't be misguided either to what Mancini actually said.

One of you talked about if your squad had been on form, they simply haven't they just produced the goods. Any of the other teams could say, if only we'd been on form.

Just my view and yes I know how many years since we won a trophy etc etc.

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Personally I think we have a deeper squad, but with less quality. The team of 08 would certainly beat us, the forward line was better (mainly because of Ronaldo). Scholes was still in his prime, Carrick & Hargreaves were both excellent and Anderson hadn't discovered KFC. Tough to say about the defence, Rafael is better than Brown, but Evra back then was better than he is now, certainly was Ferdinand and Vidic.

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I feel our squad is up there with our teams of the past, and with a few changes I think it could be the best squad I have seen.
Players like smalling, jones, powell and kagawa can only get better. Yet at the same time others in our squad are declining.
So with the right additions this summer and by moving out a few we could be seeing the start of a very strong squad. tom17

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06 Apr 2013 13:13:14
But that's the very point, the first teams of 99 and 08 are better and there's no questioning that. The question was is are our squad players better to which you would have to say yes. If we improve the first team and move a couple of our first teamers to being squad players and move out the lesser quality or under performing squad players then we'd be a better team and squad. But my opinion is still the same we have a weaker first team but stronger squad players.

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Sydney, the '99 team would destroy this current team - Beckham, Keane, Scholes, Giggs, all in their prime, Cole and Yorke scoring over 50 goals between them. The power of the '94 team would also see off the current team. We'll never know and whilst the argument over the depth of the squad will rumble on, I don't think the first 11 stands up to previous teams

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AJH, although they were quality players, I feel the game has moved on from then. 99 was certainly a better line-up on paper, but I think the current team would be dogged enough to get the result.

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Syd, we'll have to disagree. Dogged wouldn't work against such a talented side - the '99 midfield was probably the best in Europe and the team won an unprecedented treble. Sorry mate, but if you think the current team is better, into sure how much you saw of the '99 vintage

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I don't think we were better than the 99 team, I just think the game has moved on and we would have found a way to overcome them three times out of five. The 99 team on paper were a much better first XI side. Just think that this side would be able to outdo them defensively. Stam was a quality defender, but I think our defence today is better than it was then and I think the 99 team may have struggled for goals. it's hard to say for sure.

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Lol Syd, Cole and Yorke would have struggled against Rio and Eva? You may be well respected but sometimes.

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I like Cole and Yorke, but didn't think they were world-class strikers, far from it in-fact. Glenn Hoddle once said that Cole needs seven chances to score one and when I was younger I remember thinking the same when watching him. I think a team as powerful and strong as United in attack, that made dozens of good chances per a game, if we had a better forward they would score far more and when we signed RvN that became apparent. I am by no means saying Cole and Yorke were poor players as they scored several goals each, but they weren't at the level of RvN, Rooney, RvP and even Ronaldo as a striker. Good strikers, but not great strikers. I think the United team could deal with Cole and Yorke nowadays. Just my opinion.

Anyway i'm off to bed now, take care lads and ladettes.

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Jeez Syd, did you see them'99 team? I would take Cole and Yorke over any partnership we have had since. 'Several'' goals is an interesting statement, look up the stats, watch the videos, they were stunning in '99. The midfield was incredible as well. I never thought I would say this. but KLOOT, help me out here. Syd, sometimes you need to accept that you might actually not be right :-)

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Syd mate, Cole and Yorke were so good for us because as a duo they made each other better than they were when they didn't play together. As individuals they had their limitations but together they were a real force.

I think the team of 99 was a very special team that achieved something truly special. They had their luck, if Scholes and Keane had had long injury lay offs during that season then we probably wouldn't have won anything that year. They were the key, which is probably why we are so annoyed with the poorer quality midfield we have now.

I agree with Syd that if that team was brought forward into todays game by a time machine that they wouldn't be the force they were then as football has moved on. But they would have still been a great team.

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Syd I agree with the other guys.

Everyone forgets the 99 team had Scholes and Keane sitting out the final and hence why we did not blow away Bayern.

The 99 team was a beast of a team and that midfield is on a different level to our current midfield.

Whether it was for the midfield or just york and cole understanding of each others strengths, we were awesome and beautiful to watch as a team. There is no argument that Rooney and RVP are better individually but collectively they are not as good as york and cole.

Shahram

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Shahram, I actually agree with everything you are saying. However, can you imagine a Rooney/RvP attack with a young Beckham, Giggs, Scholes & Keane playing with them?

We were certainly one of the best teams in Europe back in 99, but to be fair this current team even with a weaker midfield would be one of the best European teams if this team was playing back then. Our current side doesn't look too attractive on paper, but this current team can dig out results.

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Shappy, I completely agree about the Yorke/Cole partnership. They had a great understanding of each other and the only reason they were first choice ahead of OGS was because of their great partnership. I just think United as a team would be able to cope with them much easier nowadays. Just my opinion.

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Syd

I gues we are all saying the same thing. Give us the 99 midfield with rooney and Rvp and you can put anyone against us including the current Bayern or Barca team and I would wager large sums of money on us.

On another note by the looks of it we might have 2 Spanish teams and 2 German teams in the last 4 of the CL.

I would love to see a Bayern/Real Barca/Dortmund semis.

Shahram

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07 Apr 2013 10:45:26
I think I get what your say Syd, I just don't think your explaining it well enough. I think what your getting at is that the way football has evolved that defenders are more technical now and beating a modern defence requires a more technical approach than what either Cole or Yorke would be able to cope with. The 99 team played a very traditional 442 which modern tactics and formations have made it a less effective way of playing. The 99 team playing 442 in todays football would get the midfield flooded as most teams play with three effecively in the middle, modern midfielders are generally better and keeping possession and the defenders are as good at passing and on the ball as most midfielders were back in the 90's. That would mean the 99 team would have Cole and Yorke totally isolated and cut off, Giggs and Beckham would have a minimal effect on the team unless they came in from the touch line, Keane and Scholes would be much less effective as they would struggle to get hold of the ball as they would be out numbered by players who are very good at keeping the ball, plus Keane would almost definately get sent off due to the change in how your allowed to tackle. The defence would be swamped and totally unable to cope with the speed and inventfulness of modern attacking players. As a result the 99 team would almost certainly lose any game they played in the modern era against any of the top teams nowadays. Barca Madrid Bayern would slaughter them, purely because football has moved on tactics have improved and the game is less physical and more technical.

But in saying that it would be hugely unfair to judge a team from 99 or any team from the past and judge them on their ability to play football in its modern form. That team could only beat what was put infront of it at the time, and they did. The 66 world cup winning England team would probably struggle in league one in modern football, but you can't take away the fact that they were a great team in their era.

Syd, when people compare the 99 team to the modern one I don't think they are trying to compare them on a technical or ability level, they are comparing them on what they achieved against the teams they had to over come at the time. That I think is a fair way to compare them. The 99 team was one of if not the best club team anywhere in the world at that time, something you couldn't say about our current team.

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Shappy, exactly my friend.

Sydney!

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Shappy

Don't agree as that team even in today's game would be a beast and 442 has nothing to do with it. That midfield could handle most midfields and correct me if I am wrong but we went to Juventus and played a 5 man midfield and tore them apart.

We played a lot higher up the pitch back then and Scholes and Keane both would go forward and provide each other with cover. Today's team plays very deep and in effect we have a 5 man defense with Carrick sitting very deep and providing cover. Our wing play is not even comparable to the 99 team and even with the current squad pick any of the first 11 that you want, they would get a good old fashion slapping. The english game has not had a player like Scholes in his prime for 20 years now and it does not seem there is anyone even remotely close to him from any of the youngsters playing today.

Shahram

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06 Apr 2013 09:04:33
On the subject of united drafting acoustic engineers to improve the atmosphere and sound in the ground. What we need is the stupid music to be stopped when the teams come out, it totally dwarfs the crowd noise and then the music stops and the crowd are quiet.
We never had this problem in the 70"s and 80"s, the crowd just made a great noise. Though the 2 4 6 8 the reds are great song was superb at then time and really got the crowd going.
Also, I'm in saf stand and the people round me sit there and don't say a thing, if I sing along and shout, they turn and stare! Its not a bloody library guys, so let's get the atmosphere back in the ground. We're the only ones who can do that.
Nomidfield

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What you forget is that in those days you were supporters not customers. You paid on the day and you stood with your friends. This was quite an intimidating atmosphere to some people and not a place that people would go as a family day out. Now after Euro 96 when the country fell back in love with football everything has been done to sanitise the experience and turn it into more of a theme park type event. Don't for one second think that not brining back standing has anything to do with safety it is to do with what type of supporter it attracts. Can a working class man afford to take his kids to the game any more or are they being priced out as profit becomes the be all and end all.

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06 Apr 2013 14:25:49
Nice to see your still banging that drum kloot. It gives me a warm feeling that all is right with the world. Lol

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06 Apr 2013 15:24:48
Kloots right though. Back in the day my dad, his brother and brother in law all went to games. As the kids came along we all went too. There'd be seven or eight of us from one family going. Couldn't do that now. The ordinary fan is being priced out for the prawn sandwich brigade. Yet look at germany where ticket prices are cheap and some standing is allowed and ask why can't it be the same here. MrE

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I would like to think we would be treated as customers however actually we are treated as second class customers. The price of my season ticket was over £900 last season, something I am struggling to afford for next season but what really rankles is the automatic cup scheme. We are forced to buy every home cup game except the League Cup, there is no choice. If I am away and miss two games, tough, that is £100 down the drain. Being forced to do something is wrong in my book and makes me less than a customer, a customer has choice. Then add that for European games I get kicked out of my seat so they can sell it to UEFA. What this all means is that the working man is getting priced out and treated as someone who the owners rely on having an addiction to go to the game.

I started going with my brother but it didn't have the same cost back then, now it is too expensive to take someone. Our owners need to be careful not to kill off the real fans, the ones who will go and support. I watch every game and see plenty of one off visitors with their cameras out recording the day but don't know what to sing or even that they should sing. Of course it is good for Far East sales but not for match day atmosphere.

We need a safe standing area, it works in Germany and it will work here. We need to look at the structuring of our ticket sales, the automatic cup scheme is inherently wrong and should be stopped. We should look at the ways to bring the next generation to games and to have a structured entertainent pre game that gets people to the ground earlier. We also need to change presenter/announcer to someone who isn't just doing a job, refer to it as Old Trafford not some Theatre name. Then improve the scoreboards to show pre game highlights, get better music that isn't so loud as to prevent communication or singing. Then we need to run out to something inspiring, something that stirs the soul not makes you clap politely.

Those things would be a start but I don't expect it to happen. A sound engineer is fine but they are missing the fundamentals and it could come back to bite the owners.

Red Man

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06 Apr 2013 08:58:12
So apparently, the table lies according to Mancini. Last year the won the league with the last kick, and in reality, they should never had been given the chance. I never heard mancini once congratulate us then.
This year, his team of stars are 15 points ahead and all he could say is 'the table lies'!
And that is the difference between our great club and theirs. We have class and humility, while they have non of these and are bitter and spoilt.
So let's get behind the team on Monday, hope saf plays the right tactics and let's celebrate a great year for our club.
Nomidfield

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Nomidfield - I cannot judge whether you personally know the meaning of humility, but I know damn well that Hamish doesn't

Puzzled

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06 Apr 2013 07:06:58
Shahram, you were saying Strootman ipalys higher up the pitch than a central/ defensive midfielder does. That is totally true but not because that's his best position nor because he is not good enough to play a defwnsive role.

Strootman, attackingly speaking, is brilliant. He has good vision, good pace, strong, good on the ball, god passing. But if you focus on him when his trleam lose posession, you always see him right in front of the defense. His positioning defensivly is brilliant. He can play the Carrick role, the Keane role or the Silva role. He is an all rounder.
But PSV are the eredivisie version of Barcelona. More often than not, they completely boss the game. When in possession, Strootman joins the attack. And especially since Van Bommel joined PSV, Strootman had more freedom to attack, but he still makes an important defensive contribution. In the europa league, he has averaged 8 tackles per game, that's twice as much as Cleverley and Carrick combined.

But if you watch him playing for Netherlands, you can see he plays a more disciplined role because his team has an embarrasement of riches in attack, and they don't need him to join in. And he has been top class for them and even got the captain's armband. At 22 years old, that's huge.

I understand if we buy him a lot of us would expect the rebirth of Roy Keane, a worldclass player able to dominate every single game. But that's not going to happen. His potential is massive, but he has not reached it yet and will need time to adjust to a much bigger team in a much bigger league. He will have his doubters, he will have his critics, but, imo, he will come out on top. Worst case scenario : him and cleverley would challenge for a spot ( which will definetly improve both ). Best case scenario: we would have ourselves a real gem and he goes on to become the best box to box midfielder in the world.

Mick

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Strootman and modric for me. And the two along with carrick and kagawa will make us take the step up that we need.
Nomidfield

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Mick good post. I have not watched him in the netherlands set up but I see what you mean with PSV.

I do agree that him and cleverly will be challenging for the same spot in the starting 11 and if he plays to the same level he does at PSV, that means young tom will be sitting on the bench a lot.

The big question is how he adapts to pl.


Shahram

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Sorry but think youll find ajax have the closest philosophy to barca. psv are bottlers. ,

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No midfield, I agree. We need a central playmaker, a pace setter because imo Strootman is best suited to perform box to box role. I would take any of Modric, Veratti, Thiago, Gundogan or Badelj.

Shahram, we can only hope, but imo he would fit in quite nicely if given time. His physical approach to the game can cause him some trouble at times in the eredivisiw and he would suit the epl better in that aspect. He should be able to adapt to this level since he has performed admirably since joining the national team.

No name, at the beginning of the season PSV were on a great run of form and were completely dominating most of their matches, winning by a 3 goal margin and more. But Ajax was able to catch up and they are now on the same point tally as Ajax and Vitesse if I am mistaken. And when I compared them to Barca I meant their dominance of every game they play in not the tiki-taka passing. My bad, should have compared them to Bayern.

Mick

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06 Apr 2013 05:52:42
Does anyone know if Manchester United players have buyout clauses?
If so does Wayne Rooney have one? {Ed002's Note - Please don't read anything in to "buyout" clauses - it serves to do no more than confuse matters.}

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Thank you ed

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