Manchester United Banter Archive December 06 2018

 

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06 Dec 2018 16:41:09
With all this talk of central defenders, I would like to know what you guys think of Bailey.
For me he is one of the best in the league. Only problem is his injuries which weren't so bad during his 1st season at United. Our team tends to rely on the defenders a lot with us sitting back even against championship teams. If we had a more attacking team I don't think our defenders would be injured so much. Players like Bailey are seen stretching and making attempts to stop goals a lot more compared to other teams, even those who are at the bottom of the table right now. More of our defenders end up with pulled hamstrings than any other team. We really cannot expect our defenders keep the opposition out for full 90 minutes. It's easy to ask for new CB every window and then blame them if we don't attack and concede goals. We have 2 of the best young defenders in Bailey and Lindelof and yet we just want new shiny players all the time.

Believable4 Unbelievable4

06 Dec 2018 17:27:30
He’s our best defender. Has all the attributes to be one of the best in the league. Only issue is he is still a bit raw. Can be rash and seems to struggle to keep fit. But improvement in those areas come with game time, consistency and trust from the manager. We would be crazy to even entertain the idea of selling him. Him and lindelof compliment each other beautifully. His almost Vidic like whilst lindelof is the more cultured on the ball rio of the pairing. Jose has two very good young cbs there. I don’t buy it that we have a poor defence if those two can be given the trust and confidence to build a partnership. If under Guardiola or Poch, these two would be up there with the best partnerships. May be OTT but I really rate this two that highly. Yes an experienced cb may be needed, but these two could be our cb pairing for years to come, if given the opportunity and game time.

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06 Dec 2018 17:19:37
Bailly for me is as mad as a box of frogs, class defender and very fast. Only thing he doesn't have is a footballing brain which defenders need nowadays, but if he sees danger he cleans up and rids the ball anywhere which some hate. Still worth a place in the side for me over any of the other cb's we have.

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06 Dec 2018 18:32:16
I think Bailly and Lindelof could develop into a decent partnership. They have compliamentary attributes. Lindeloff needs to toughen up a bit and Bailly needs to calm down. They are both young and have many years ahead of them to learn their trade in a position which players really benefit from experience perhaps over any other position.

I'm not suggesting they are the second coming of Rio and Vidic but for me there are promising signs and I'd like to see them play in a better team under a different manager to see their full potential.

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06 Dec 2018 18:54:34
I think three at the back suits him as he has more cover when he steps put and tries to win the ball.

Think him and lindelof would work well in a three with an experienced defender (i. e. toby alderweireld) in between them.

Also would allow us to play dalot and shaw and get them forward with more cover behind them.

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06 Dec 2018 18:56:31
Love the guys game and approach. First season and he was in top 3 in the EPL.

Has dipped for various reasons but he is for me a traditional defender and although as FZZ has mentioned can seem out dated maybe, I think every team needs a brick wall kinda CB. More so than a John stones style CB.

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06 Dec 2018 18:58:07
Bailly is a great athlete with a strong attitude, but he can be a little unpredictable and unorthodox, not traits you want in a center back. But his ability and potential are beyond most of the others, including Smalling, Jones, and Rojo.

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06 Dec 2018 20:22:45
I’m really not a fan, and haven’t been from the start. I don’t see what others see in him. He was OK yesterday, nothing more. He’s nowhere near the best in the league, that’s madness. Yesterday he spent the first 15 minutes avoiding the ball, some times with his hands on his hips. I was watching closely and almost posted on here at the time but decided against it to avoid anything negative. His attitude is all wrong.

We are praising a defender after a 2-2 draw at home to Arsenal, having conceded due to mistakes. I think that shows where we are at right now, especially if people are calling him our best defender. I think that’s probably Smalling as he’s been the only ever-present defender through 3 managers. But that’s not saying much. It’s probably our weakest position in the squad. Bailly is still young, i’d love him to prove his doubters wrong myself included, it’s got to start with his attitude and commitment.

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06 Dec 2018 20:55:27
Wazza the mistakes came from 1. Smalling marking Mustafi and Dave then the 2nd goal was rojo fault.

Bailly was one of the main reasons aubamayang was so non existent. He is by far our best defender and should be along with Dave and Shaw first on the sheet for the defence.

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06 Dec 2018 21:11:23
Bolger i’m not saying Bailly was at fault, I was pointing out our defensive frailties. If Bailly is our best defender it’s because imo the competition for places is poor.

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06 Dec 2018 21:39:37
Bailly is a top prospect. He and Lindelof are by far our best two central defenders. Neither the complete package but have enough ability. By contrast Rojo and Jones are way too rash, with Jones especially poor on the ball. Smalling is a huge problem. He stands 2 yards behind everyone so the opposition can make simple diagonal runs that puts the whole defence in disarray. It's puzzling as to what Jose sees in him that mitigates against this very obvious trait.

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07 Dec 2018 03:26:18
Mate he dosent have a problem with injuries, he’s not been playing because of the fall out with Mourinho and I know this as fact. The January window is arriving swiftly so he may conveniently have a busy December to remind teams he’s actually good. There’s always an agenda with this ego maniac.

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06 Dec 2018 11:26:57
Our problems essentially stem from central defence. We have experienced defenders hacking away at the ball in our box in a blind panic and what we need is solid composed cultured defenders.

Believable4 Unbelievable0

06 Dec 2018 11:41:25
Yet have been told repeatedly on here we’ve a good defence and stats back it up, DDG backed it up is the truth, even he is starting to make errors now, hard to be a one man brick wall.

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06 Dec 2018 15:05:08
The thing is Dave has saved us on so many occasions that he can get away with the odd error. I thought he made two great saves, especially the second one from aubameyang, he made it look so easy.
Like WRD says, it’s hard being a one man defence.

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06 Dec 2018 15:23:32
Defence is an interesting issue. I don't think our defenders are as bad as they have played this season. A combination of low confidence and tactics that play to their deficiencies rather than their strengths makes them look worse than they are.

Also in my opinion there just isn't that many great central defenders around at the moment. When Ramos has to be one of the top contenders for best centre back in the world you know there isn't much competition.

Personally I think both of Liverpool's and City's defences are decidedly average, with only Laporte as the potential world class centre back amoungst them.

Chelsea often line up with David Luiz in their defence. Arsenal's defence doesn't have a world class player at either CB or full back.

Only Tottenham have a genuine world class CB in Alderweireld. Vertonghen is close as well but not quite there for me.

Does Real Madrid or Barcelona have a genuine world class CB? Maybe by current standards but none that would come close to making it into the 100 greatest CB's of all time.

Do Bayern Munich have one? Both Hummels and Boetang lack in certain areas, they have some good younger players, but none who could be considered world class.

All the best CB's at the moment are spoken about with the term "potential" often thrown in. We have many "potential" world class CB's playing around the world but none actually world class at the moment.

Who is there who could hold up against the likes of Rio Ferdinand, Vidic, Terry, Carvalho, Hierro, Puyol, Cannavaro, Thuram, Maldini ect?

So when considering that lack of genuine world class CB's out there playing for our rivals, can we really say our defenders are that far behind or that it's that simple to recruit better options?

Football has moved on, with teams defending more as a team and less reliant on individuals there seems to be a lack of those truly great individual players. Which way round that happened I can say. Whether we lack great defenders because the way teams play, or whether the way teams play is because of the lack of great defenders?

Either way their aren't an abundance of options for us to purchase to improve, and even less who might be attainable.

If we are to improve our defensive record we might have to adapt how we play like so many other teams have around the world.

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06 Dec 2018 16:15:44
Liverpool have Van Dijk, City have Laporte, Toby at Tottenham and Luiz at Chelsea they are all better then any of our cbs.

Godin, koulibaly, skrinar, jimenez these are all top cbs.

There are some other young players who are already on the same level as our cbs or have more potential.

Our cbs ave been rubbish fr years. You are getting too confused with the way other teams play. Defenders are meant to defend first and if you can't do that then you shouldn't be a defender. By changing your style of play to cover your crap defender doesn't hide away the fact our cbs are crap and have been fr years.

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06 Dec 2018 17:21:17
Shappy you must be a nightmare to bump into in the street when your in a rush.

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06 Dec 2018 18:10:57
Singh, I don't rate van Dijk any higher than Bailly.

Godin has been world class but is on the decline now. Koulibaly looks a great player, yet has only shown this sort of form over the last few years. Until he was 24 he was never rated that highly. The other lads qualify for our under 23 side. So come under the bracket of "potential" as they have yet to peak.

Thats the thing there are loads with potential, yet none at their peak who could be considered world class. Or very few at least.

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06 Dec 2018 18:29:29
Some may miss Shappy’s rapier point. Just to make sure you don’t. It isn’t the paucity of our centre backs that is the problem but it is because we have not adapted the way we play like “so many other teams”. Basically it is the managers fault. It’s like one of those diagrams that keep finding the way back to the same point.

Our centre halves are not good enough, period. There is no leader, no “on the header” centre half, no one dominating the defence and when that doesn't come from the goal keeper it develops weaknesses. Yes defend from the front but it’s no good playing while looking over your shoulder behind you. We have no commander to look up to, no organiser, no one to step out with the ball and until we get that commander our defence will remain wobbly regardless of tactics. Anyone who played knew a commanding centre half was what a team was built on.

If you want a discussion then maybe DDG’s lack of command is not helping the centre halves. The Great Dane is still the best I have ever seen, powerful and commanded his defenders. DDG doesn’t but is more agile. I have played in defence in front of both types and felt more comfortable with a Schmeichel type than a DDG. Maybe just psychological but you knew where your keeper was with a commanding one, it kept communication lines tighter. It all combines to the defensive frailty of where we are.

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06 Dec 2018 19:30:40
Redman, I think our young defenders don't stand a chance in this team under this manager. How can they grow in stature, confidence and ability when they are in a struggling side with no leaders and their confidence is undermined?

I think Dalot, Bailly, Lindelof and Shaw could develop into a pretty decent back four but they need better midfielders who can keep the ball and take the pressure off them along with tactics which mean we defend from the front. At the moment we invite pressure on and give the ball away all over the pitch so these lads have no chance.

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06 Dec 2018 20:39:32
Mancman

The more the criticism of our manager/ s, the more difficult our situation, the less likely the manager will take a chance on youngsters, sadly that is reality. Calls for a managers head means he has to survive and that will likely mean more experienced players. That would be the same under any manager. SAF had given himself breathing room, still there was extensive criticism when he bloodied the kids in 95 and more when we lost the first game.

Which young defenders? Looks generally like they haven’t made that step up to the very top level. If they were good enough they would force their way in. Dalot could be decent and he has been given a chance but he has to show he has it, others have to step up. We have some good young players, Garner, Chong, Greenwood, Puigmal, but they have to make the step. They have a better chance with us than City. That said I wish we could get our hands on young Foden.

You are right on midfield, very poor right now.

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06 Dec 2018 22:17:09
Of course it's Jose's fault. Or do you consider it good management to invite teams onto our universily agreed terrible defence by sitting so deep and not pressing teams higher up the pitch or at all really?

My point is there are no great defenders currently playing, certificate none available to us, so I'm not sure buying more will hugely improve our defending.

Your point about commanders/ leaders I find interesting. I agree we don't have players in the mould of Robson, Bruce, Keane. Hardened battlers, barking orders and putting their bodies in the line.

All those type of players are playing at City, Silva, Sterling, Stones ect. Oh wait, City don't have anyone in that mould and yet they are running away with the league again.

In the 90's and early 00's there were tons of players with that attitude and grit, not just at our club but at many clubs up and down the country, even in other countries. Gattuso comes to mind.

There are none of these type players around anymore or at least very very few as compared to years ago.

It's almost like the world has changed and football has moved on and adapted.

It's a very British mentality in times of crisis to look back and try and replicate the past. Never has progress been made by following a 20 year old outdated rethoric.

Here we are, trying to come to terms with our current reality and all we are doing is trying to move back in time. That is exactly what Liverpool did in the early 90's and look how that ended up for them. If we are to learn from their mistakes and therefore avoid their fate we need to do things differently.

It appears I have several people who disagree with me, I don't know if they disagree just because it's me or because they disagree with my post. Not that I mind, disagreement is the spice of life after all. Lol. Serious point though.

If you disagree with my point I would love someone to come up with 5-10 genuine world class CB's in their prime (between the ages of 26-31).

If your really on it do the same with Roy Keane/ Bryan Robson styled leaders. 5-10 would be great. Cheers.

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06 Dec 2018 23:02:46
Just because you haven't heard of Koulibaly before he was 24, does not mean that he was not highly rated. He may not have played for the biggest clubs in Europe, but he was regarded as one of the best young french defenders for years. I guess moving to belgium for a couple years made him "dissapear" a bit. he has been rock solid since he moved to Italy, last couple of seasons he has been amongst the best cb in the world. I know everyone has different opinion, but saying that he wasnt highly rated before he was 24 is just not true.

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07 Dec 2018 10:01:05
Stoupid, I hadn't heard of him before his move to Napoli. I might not be a scout, but there are very few highly rated youngsters I hadn't heard of before they where 22 in the last 10-15 years. A lot of those youngster fail to live up to the expectations placed on their shoulders.

The very fact that he made the backwards step of moving to Belgium from France suggests he wasn't rated that highly, or at least not living up to an expectation that he could turn out world class. Otherwise he would have been moving to a better more competitive league.

His first season at Napoli wasn't great, he was under Rafa Benitez and he was in and out of the team. Good physically, yet lacked culture and understanding of the finer points of the game. It wasn't until Sarri took over at Napoli that Koulibaly's career began to take an upward trajectory. At the start of his second season at Napoli there was at least 20 better defenders in the league and at least 10 players his age or younger who were more highly rated. He has done a phenomenal job to get to the stage he is at now, hard work, dedication and a will to learn.

Besides, my point wasn't about potential so much but about realising it, Koulibaly has only reach these heights over the last 3 years, and never shown any thing close to world class form before that.

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07 Dec 2018 10:35:51
If we be honest and look at some of the goals we have conceded they have been ridiculous individual errors. From giving the ball away in midfield, but we do miss a leader. I think back to the Chelsea game, if Nemanja Vidic is in there we hang on imo. There are still some good centre halves out there. Van Djik looks a class act, thought it when he was at Celtic. Toby is a top centre half too. Personally I would love Koulibaly, but I think toby is the man we need due to his experience and he seems quite calm. He would be great in the middle of a back 3 with bailly and lindelof.

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06 Dec 2018 09:01:09
Can anyone tell me what does matic bring to the team to be starting every game? He doesn't close down fast enough, doesn't stick with runners and generally slows the play down! Joses signing so he plays him.

Believable5 Unbelievable2

06 Dec 2018 10:03:06
Rogie, I understand where you are coming from. He seems static and slows down play. He is not the same Matic who started last season in terms of performance. However when he plays he seems to bring some assurance to the midfield which allows other MFs to move forward. He doesn't do it very well this season but who do we have that can play that role better? Fellaini, McTom and Pogba cannot, and that is the role that allows Hererra to run around or man mark when needed. As things stand i do not count Fred as one of our MFs because i am simply disappointed by him and hope he improves.

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mbd              

06 Dec 2018 10:08:06
Agree with mbd, he brings some assurance. when he's in possession he shields the ball well and doesn't often give it away, but sometimes he holds onto it too long. He's another that slows down our play too much. Matic and Pogba together are too slow for the style of play we want to see.

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06 Dec 2018 10:37:11
Maybe Fred just needs a few games?

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06 Dec 2018 10:38:58
Because he is probably one of the only players in the squad that mourinho can trust and is amicable with.

Even if he's playing badly, jose knows its because he's actually a bad player and not actively looking to get him sacked. So he can take some solace in that i guess, would probably do the same if i was in his position.

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06 Dec 2018 12:31:45
I do think Matic at his best has a Carrick like way of playing. What I mean by that is being quietly efficient, snuffing out danger, interceptions etc and almost makes the players around him better by there.

BUT he's been awful the last few months and would go as far to say he wasn't great at Chelsea in his last season and like a lot of Utd signings he starts well and is now average at best.

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06 Dec 2018 12:08:55
We started the season with periera doing a small role and it gave us a extra edge when we play teams like palace, young boys, Southampton, moving the ball faster n creating more openings. In my eyes matic is done slows possession down and let's the smaller teams set up as a unit! There may be games where a formation will suit him but Jose’s usual boring formation he’s killing r counter attacks.

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06 Dec 2018 15:28:39
At his best he is an excellent shield in front of the defence, one who keeps possession well without really creating much.

However, bar the first 3-4 months at our club he hasn't been at his best. He always struggles the longer the season goes on. This lack of stamina is further exasperated in the seasons following an international tournament where he has had reduced recovery over the summer. He is also getting older, which will make it harder and harder to remain at peak fitness probably shortening the amount of time he will be at his best during a season.

I think we need a more mobile, energetic midfield which doesn't feature Matic. It's a shame as he will probably be remembered as a flop, which is harsh on a player who has been as good as he has during his career.

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06 Dec 2018 16:28:52
Did no-one notice him getting caught in possession, dallying on the ball last night? And not just last night. Problem is, he doesn't have the pace to recover when this happens, and ends up losing the ball in a dangerous position, or giving away a silly free kick because he's had to haul his opponent back.

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06 Dec 2018 19:02:51
Utd Road, Matic may be like Carrick in the sense that he makes a lot of good defensive plays that go unnoticed, but he has never been the passer that Carrick was. Matic is a real hindrance for us going forward, far too slow.

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06 Dec 2018 20:21:09
I would respectfully venture that Matic is overrated, whilst Carrick was underrated.

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07 Dec 2018 01:39:36
Matic has been extremely poor for a couple of months but he certainly isn’t the only one. I think we looked better when he was suspended.

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06 Dec 2018 08:52:49
Update on the 'United V Arsenal or I'm a Celeb' dilemma.

I watched the game and was mostly entertained. It's been a while since I enjoyed watching us play and it was a bit like the Arsenal v Spurs game for periods, where both teams were gong for it. Rashford, Herrera and Lingard in particular were impressive with the energy the brought to the team.

We gave the ball away a fair bit but it was mostly in the opposition half trying to make something happen, which we can live with.

Sloppy mistakes cost us again, I think last night confirmed what we all know. We need a shakeup in defence, and our attackers have bags of potential under the right guidance.

Got to almost 80 minutes and Pogba and Lukaku killed the game flat imo. We were back to seeing what we're now used to. Slow transition, unable to pick out runs, giving the ball away needlessly.

So I switched over to ITV to keep the wife happy and catch a bit of Willoughby. Win-win.

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06 Dec 2018 09:22:09
I don't think Pogba had any effect on the game. If it was up to me, I would have added Mata to the mix of things, rather than put Pogba on the field.

Another thing that I noticed and I don't know if others felt it or not, was that prior to Lukaku coming on the pitch, our passing was crisp, mostly played to the feet of Martial or Rashford and even if we were going long, we were playing the ball where these two could run to.

As soon as Lukaku came on the field, the passing lessened and the long balls into channels became long hopefull balls pinged to Lukaku and he didn't do much about them.

Anyway, I think we showed some fight today and while Dalot was caught out position-wise, he had a pretty decent game, something he can build on. Bailly was good, one-off mistake after not playing for long is fine. Let's see what happens over the weekend!

On a side note: Although I was watching on the telly, the banter between the two sets of fans in the stadium was insane. Was really proud of the way our fans kept chanting and supporting the team and gave it back to the away fans.

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06 Dec 2018 12:32:52
I enjoyed seeing Pogba chasing and pressing. Hope the penny drops soon that you need effort and ability.

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06 Dec 2018 12:47:08
Pogba will probably go down as a worse purchase than Veron.

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06 Dec 2018 14:32:04
Veron was actually OK. Won a league with him but just didn't fit into the perfect midfield pairing of Keane and Scholes. Kleberson or Djemba-Djemba would be more worthy candidates.

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06 Dec 2018 16:34:15
Quality was awful at times, and some horrendous mistakes, but paradoxically that made for an exciting game. I agree with others - a front line of Rashford, Martial and Lingard will cause teams problems, with their pace and willingness to run at defender's. And with experience and age, comes more composure and footballing intelligence. I was gutted when Lingard was brought off, because his energy and the runs he makes off the ball, are vital to our attack at this time.

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06 Dec 2018 20:22:56
I’m happy with the front 3, it’s the middle of the park where we are struggling. Imagine Ince, Robson, Keane, Scholes, Carrick in there.

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Review Of The Day 6th December 2018

06 Dec 2018 07:29:01
{Ed's Note - Ed001 has posted a new article entitled, Review Of The Day 6th December 2018

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06 Dec 2018 17:35:35
Another interesting addition to the PL. I was impressed with Hassenhutl at Leipzig and also at Ingolstadt. Will be interesting to. see how he fares at Southampton. They have some good players and should be much higher in the table than they are at right now imo. What do you make of him ed1?

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06 Dec 2018 17:35:35
Another interesting addition to the PL. I was impressed with Hassenhutl at Leipzig and also at Ingolstadt. Will be interesting to. see how he fares at Southampton. They have some good players and should be much higher in the table than they are at right now imo. What do you make of him ed1?

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{Ed001's Note - I like the Alpine Klopp, RBL played some exciting football under him and I just hope he gets Saints playing the same way.}