Manchester United Banter Archive December 07 2012

07 Dec 2012 23:10:29
We are going to be in trouble this weekend due to all of our injuries... We surely have not had a worse season than this for them.... Valencia would be great as Clichy and Kolarev arent the strongest defensively and he can cover Rafael and help out.... Nani (Yes Nani the rubbish one) would of been really useful too for once as Maicon is useless at the back.... We could of done with Kagawa and Anderson too.

07 Dec 2012 21:20:54
ok i think ure going to see something like this on sunday much like we played chelsea with, we will look to keep it tight and compact in the middle because city dont have natural wide men then try and break with width.
With that in mind i think a team like this will play

DDG
smalling ferdinand evans evra
jones
fletcher carrick
young rooney
rvp

i dont know if ando or cleverly are fit yet and if thy are there's plenty of room to tweak it.
This is going to be one of those games i feel that is won by control, we will let city play there short passes across the back four and look to hassel them quick when it passes the half way line.
Much depends on Fergie and his team selection, but with giggs and scholes playing a big part on wens night i must say im hoping they are 'rested'.
Rooney and young are going to be so important because they will see more of the ball than our other players early on so lets hope they use it well and give rvp those chances.
Chris the REDman

Anderson, Cleverley, Kagawa,Valencia & Nanni are all still injured,so i think the team you have chosen won,t be far off the mark, however i think maybe Rooney for Jones in midfield and either Hernandez or Wellbeck up front,personally i would go with Wellbeck as his ball retention is much better than Chicarito's. We must also be aware of City coming strong if the game is still in the balance with 15/20 mins to go and at present with the injury situation we don't have many options to come off the bench , so holding Jones & Chicarito back could be benefficial. All in all i'm not too confident,however "Its a funny old game" .

Chris, given our injuries I quite like the look of your team. Stay tight then look to take opportunities on the break. I just hope SAF shares your view! To see Scholes/Giggs in a 2 man midfield tomorrow would be painful

Gav

07 Dec 2012 19:57:16
Hate to say it but i would be happy with a point sunday,
but if we could sneak a win what a great position we would be in and with vidic, kagawa, valencia and cleverly to come back.
im nervous already but cant wait!
my team would be
------------de gea
jones---smalling---evans--evra
rafael--carrick--anderson--young
------------rooney
--------------van persie

will red

I do not think your far off maybe Welbeck on the right and Rafa at right back...

Praying for a draw, bad times... Where's your backbone?!

DodgyBanter

Anderson is injured, so expect say to play rafael at right back. Fletcher/jones and carrick in the middle with welback and young on the wings and rooney and rvp up front.

I actually hope we play 451 formation with a midfield 3 of carrick, fletcher, jones with rooney and young on the wings and welback on the bench.

Shahram

Shahram,

I have mentioned this before but it is Danny welbeck. It's not that difficult.

I have a sneaky feeling Anderson will play, then again another part of me, after fergie said the experienced players have to step up, makes me think giggs and scholes will start!

GDS

Shahram, i can see that actually jones in a 5 man midfield with young and rooney out wide,
db i dont believe i said i would play for a draw, we are crap at that and wont do it but with our injuries at the moment, the fact we are already 3 points ahead and the fact that we are at their place in potentially our hardest game of the season, means a draw wouldnt be a bad result
a win would be even better

will red

GDS

If giggs and scholes individually or together start we will get stuffed pretty good. I can see Toure having his best game of the year and man of the match award. Silva will be licking his chops as well. By the time SAF decides to admit it was a mistake, it will be 6th or 7th minute and the game pretty much out of reach.

I think we need someone like jones to physically match up with Toure and hopefully have enough with Fletcher and carrick to neuralize silva and nasri. If fletcher plays the more defensive role it will still allow for carrick to play a little further up the pitch when we have the ball and he can distribute the ball better than the other two.

Shahram

Welbeck it is then :)

Will Red

If we set up to with a more attacking formation, the match ups are not in our favor with the current personnel and it will be an easy game for city. I would flood the midfield and make them go down the wings. Rafael can handle their attack on our right side, just hope we give evra some protection on the other side.

I know it set up for an ugly game with both sides losing possession in the middle of the pitch and the strikers not getting great service but sometimes you have to play ugly to get a result.

Shahram

DodgyBanter - a draw would be a very positive result IMO 1) We're away from home and City's home record is very good 2) We would stay 3 points clear 3) We have several key players injured whilst City don't

We shouldn't play for a draw, but should keep things tight, and if it does end all level then it is a good result for United

Then with Vidic, Kagawa, Anderson and Cleverly returning in the coming weeks we can really push on

Gav

07 Dec 2012 17:50:45
ED004, What you think of this?

Just something id like to see happen in the summer

Vidic 15-20M -- Hummels 25M
Evra 5M -- Baines 10M or Alaba 10-15M
Giggs and Scholes retire -- Strootman 15M
Nani 15-20M -- Reus 20-25M
Macheda 2M
Bebe 1M

Keep Rio for one more season and then promote Wootton or buy some young centre back.

Line up like this :

De Gea
Rafael Smalling Hummels Baines
Strootman Anderson
Reus Kagawa Rooney
V.Persie {Ed004's Note - I reckon it would be a good team but I would rather have Vidal, Lars Bender, Wanyama and a few other cm's before Strootman who I do not rate very highly. Also Reus will cost more than that and I can't see him leaving Dortmund unfortunately}

I rate strootman highly, think he is a good tough player, who can break up play well and drive forward, bender would be 2nd option, wanyama is playing in the scottish league where many average players can look great and vidal is probably untouchable.

as for reus how much do you think he'd cost? and do you think he's better than rodriguez? {Ed004's Note - I honestly do not know who is better. I think reus edges it though and more than 30 million}

Alba and reus have both just joined tgeir teams why would they leave to come to us? its not going to happen.

Because we are MANCHESTER UNITED.

Ajp

Alaba joined Bayern as a Teenager and Lied in their boarding school for many years.
Has always been a left back but was used as a DM a couple of times in his second season.

No way he is leaving Bayern anytime soon, sorry, never mind for 10 - 15m!

Jonny8

I think it would be unlikely to get Reus in the next couple of years tbh. Last season he was one of the bundesliga's best players, and he could have moved to virtually any team he wants.

But he didnt. He made it clear that joining Dortmund was his dream. He's in a young, exiting team, challenging for the champions league, and living in his homecountry.

Guetting him after just one season with Dortmund is unlikely.

Mick

Rues won't leave, Dortmund is his team. Funny thing about him and Dortmund is that the football club let him go as a youngster as they said he wouldn't make it....lol

GBI

07 Dec 2012 17:42:09
Interesting thread started by StevieK below. I have no issue with people questioning the Manager or some of the players...it's just how some people do it. Perhaps I'm sensitive (bless) or perhaps people need to learn a little respect. I feel privelidged to have seen Scholes and Giggs in the flesh and whilst I think they should both probably call it a day, I would never call them a disgrace or dreadful - they both deserve more respect than that. I also lived through some dire years pre SAF so am well aware of what he has done for this club. However, that doesn't stop me wondering if time has caught up wi him, but again, some of the comments about him are out of order.

From what I read, most of the regular posters generally agree with the current state of affairs with the odd different view about particular players (that's for you Syd) but a few posters let their emotions get the better of them. Hey ho, that's what makes it fun.

AJH

07 Dec 2012 20:49:26
weve been questionin him for so long theres a point where we cant always be polite little princesses anymore. we all love alex no doubt but we are allowed to question like you say but it can be annoying therefore sumtimes people vent there anger on here, nothin wrong with that if you ask me......fergies a big man, he can handle it not that he reads this anyway

07 Dec 2012 17:05:17
StevieK

Seeing as you are like a dog with a bone as to what team I would have picked here it is.

Same keeper and back 4.

Midfield Tunners sitting in front of the back 4 Powell and Cleverly in front with freedom to get forward.
Front 3 of Rooney Welbeck Hernandez with Rooney and Welbeck playing wide.

That way you get to see Powell playing centrally not pushed out on the wing Tunners gets CL experience which IMO he would have excelled and even if he didnt just getting a game would have been brilliant for him.

Thats only one change in personnel but is IMO a better balanced team and gives us a chance to see Tunners and see how he gets on and a chance to see Powell in his preferred position. This is just my opinion I am not saying I know better than SAF but like every other supporter I have an opinion.

Agree or disagree with me I dont really mind that is just my personal opinion.

Devil Dust.

DD

I would have liked to see that team TBH. Sure it lacks experience, but the balance of that lineup is 10 times better than what we saw; a young no.10-come-CM on the wing, a 39 yr old ex-winger in CM, 2 CM'ers neither of which is good defensively, our best available forward out wide...and we wonder why we looked disjointed, lol

It would be interesting to hear, do other poster's think the above lineup - given the loss of Gigg's experience but the gain of an energetic, young CDM and a better balance - would have done better? I honestly do, even if you disagree that Giggs is still better than Tunners (one on one) I still think that lineup would have done better and been more beneficial to us

Gav

Wow, DD and Gav should replace SAF and Phelan, you guys are incredible...

AJH

AJH

You really are sensitive! (ref your post above). I'm pretty certain I would make a poor football manager (I'll cope) but I have my opinions on our team, as a supporter who watches every game. I was just interested to see how other's saw it. Afterall, we did lose at home to a poor team, and the performance was hardly satisfactory!

Gav

08 Dec 2012 15:01:23
That is just my opinion also if ya read it, it clearly says "I am not saying I know better than SAF"

Devil Dust.

07 Dec 2012 15:52:52
Hi Eds, what do you make of rumours linking Begovic nd us. Hope its not truth as I really like De Gea. He is my favourite GK. Begovic is also a good goalie but I rate De Gea highly. I liked he [de gea] from his time in Spain. I think SAF needs to show some faith in the boy as he will improve with more gametime, confidence nd faith.


On another side, in recent few days I have seen posts stating names of young German players that can improve our side. We all know that Bundesliga is producing lots of young talent so there are two questions to you all:

1. Who is everyone's personal favourite young German player?

2. Who would everyone like to see in our team (only one German youngster)?

My picks wud be:
1. Marco Reus
2. Lars Bender

Cheers


Cult of Personality {Ed002's Note - I would not expect Begovic to be moving to Old Trafford in January.}

My favourite german players are hummels, reus and bender.

JK92

Goetze, crown jewel of the dortmund team.

Shahram

07 Dec 2012 14:31:42
This Sunday is going to be the most unpredictable game yet. When you look at cities current team/form then look at our team/form/injuries you cannot predict any scoreline, a lot of fans say we will get destroyed.. but is that the attitude we should show to the players?

Games like this is where we can see our stars step up, Wayne Rooney, Van Persie, Hernandez, Rafael etc can all change this game, but it won't be easy the whole team needs to go there ready to put up a fight, the supporters need to make their selves heard, we shouldn't give up already.

Win or lose, we need to make a point to Manchester City. We will not back down, the players need to show the fighting spirit we have lacked lately and as players like Kagawa, Toni, Vidic etc all make their way back we can well and truly win the league.

This is undoubtedly the biggest game of the season so far.

I wish I could make it to this game but I have to stay at home, I will be at the April game though.

Have a good weekend guys!

-JakeW

07 Dec 2012 16:13:29
well said jake, i think the away fans always do step up especially for the big ones, its all down to the players to put in a performance, like you say anything can happen but sadly im not sure we have to quality in midfield. im excited for the game none the less and will be goin to the game and bouncing my boobs off.

Great post Jake, we need to show that we can battle and will not be pushed aside. I'd be happy with a reasonable performance and a draw TBH, given our current injuries and form

Gav

Nice one Jake.

StevieK

07 Dec 2012 13:44:40
Manchester united sould buy player like wesley snadjer&bale

Ok let me put the cheat code on Fifa and we should have them in 3 days, alright?

-JakeW

Intresting. That's a new one: Snadjer. Never seen it coming tbh.

Mick

Whats wrong is there in buying bale and sneijder huh? JakeW
we are in need of midfielder and a LM..
and Why do everyone keeps bragging about fifa and fifa manager? Agreed that getting bale will be hard but it is not impossible, u should be telling it to the fans who thinking of buying ronaldo back..

There is more of a chance of us signing Ronaldo than there is Gareth Bale, he is also as inconsistent as Nani and for the price tag Spurs put on him I would rather sign Neymar. Sneijder has had his chance to join us several occasions, I don't want him near our club.

-JakeW

1. There s more chance of us buying bale than ronaldo.....
2. U dont want sneijder near our club doesn't mean the manager or other fans dont him either....
Huzzi

1. Honestly I think there is more of a chance to sign Ronaldo then Bale.

2. Sneijder is a class act and potentially getting him for dirt cheap or even free would be daylight robbery.

Mick, give the guy a break. A lot of people coming on here don't have English as their first language.....like the Scots for instance.

StevieK {Ed007's Note - Ya cheeky bawbag! Al stoat you.}

07 Dec 2012 12:47:26
Rumours about Sterling have cropped up again, I wouldn't be against signing him, but I still think that a Latino like Vadillo would be money better spent.

Fresh!

Fresh, there is ZERO chance of signing Sterling. I also would prefer much better quality than that. Someone like Rodriguez' standard is what we should be aiming for. All this talk about Sterling joining us is nonsense and I cannot believe people are so naive that they believe it.

Sydney!

Well Steerling is still 17 years old and putting great performances week in, week out. He is still younger than Powell and proving himself at the highest levels.

Therefore, guetting him would be great. you dont get that kind of english talent often.

But why would he leave? Liverpool is the perfect foil for him to keep improving and maturing for the next couple of years because they can provide him weekly playing time. And then, if Liverpool are still out of the ucl, he can move to a more competitive side.

And if he is to move, i hardly think he's going to choose united. That's even worse than the Van Persie affair. At least van persie helped arsenal and dragged them last season before realising that he will never win anything unless he moves.

Mick

Syd the point is people were asking about the apparent interest we have in him. Which through asking 002 I found we have no interest, which should be the end of it. I doubt most fans would've believed we would move for the guy. But then again nobody can say for certain on these things until confirmed.

RED_LAD

I never once thought we would move for him - I don't think anyone here things that we will, try not to be so richeous next time.

Fresh!

Fresh, then why are you talking about it?

Sydney!

Cat fight

Ross

07 Dec 2012 11:24:37
Steve

I get what you mean about the people coming on here calling for heads to roll after one or two bad results but to be honest its the same heads getting called for all the time ie Evra, Carrick, Ando, the oldies etc. These same names have been mentioned as should/could have gones for around 6 windows. Thats not unrealistic as they have all shown to differing degrees that they are not fit for purpose either through lack of ability or fitness or age etc so there are arguments for staying or going.

Now you can argue that the position we are in is one of strength and the league table and early qualifying from the CL group will back that up but if you dont just follow the tables and look at things like performance (team and individuals), tactics, playing style and future prospects we are lacking behind massively. Our only true world class purchase since VDS has dug us out of so many holes already its frightening. These holes we find ourselves in regularly are normally down to inability to change and counter the oppositions tactics. By sticking with the 4-4-2 for so long SAF is very reluctant to change and it is a really big problem. Without RVP where would we be? I dread any challenge on him as if he gets injured we are seriously goosed. There are not many other top teams around where you can say take one top striker out and they are screwed, almost all other teams have a strong enough team to cover. We don't! because of the CM and LB positions.

We have struggled massively against many smaller teams and also up and coming teams mainly due to tactics and application. This falls at the manager and players feet as they are the ones who can change that. As Red man says when we watch the team play in meaningless games like the other night we want to see where the teams going, who is on the brink of the 1st team, what youngsters can apply themselves at that level. We owe no obligation to any team! We owe no obligation to help one team or the other qualify. We should be using those games to give the younger players who could get some exp at that level. And before you say anything about the Cluj game with Wootton and Powell the biggest problem is SAF seems to think its ok to push the younger guy ie Powell out wide to accomodate Giggs in the middle! You say we cant throw multiple younger players (and 18 is young not 20+ IMO) in just incase they get humiliated or moral is bashed? If they cant handle a bad performance at 20-23 when will they? Added on to that why play a young 18 year old out of position where he will more often than not fail to deliver to his best ability. Surely that is counter productive as he would have more confidence to play to his ability if he were playing in his natural position. People were picking Jones to pieces last year as he was being utilised all over the park but he is a bloody CB. How would Rio look at RB or CM now never mind when he was first starting out? That is down to the manager. If he has no faith in youngsters like Powell or Petrucci to play their actual positions untill they are 23 like Cleverly then we will never see them in a Utd shirt. Players only have a 15 year life at best so why would they want to spend 5 years of that trying to get into our team when they could do a Shawcross or Pique and move away, play straight away and become good enough players that we want them back?

SAF has entered into transfer dealings before where he has said yae or nae to signing a player for that extra 1 million or so like Ronaldinho and Robben and at that time we had a strong enough team to stay competitive without those players. Now the market is in a place where we are getting blown out of the water and the sellers are the power holders which equals more money for players, more money for wages and more money for agents. This is something SAF is normally not happy playing ball with. He wants it his way or the high way. Well we cant run like that. If we were still top dogs financially and were able to out muscle the smaller teams then yeah this tactic can work but not anymore where a stronger negotiation has to happen with more give coming from the buyer ie us. So to get that area sorted we will need to buy and no doubt buy big.

His heavy handed approach is not for the modern day similarly are the tactics. His preference for in promotion has led to stagnated training and the yes men have just followed suit leading to no inovation or evolution we all wanted to see 3 years ago. We should not be playing 37-8 year olds out with a keeper and even then only a very select few are capable of doing that. Even worse is those players are playing in the engine room, the most crucial of area in the modern game and as a result the gap in talent between our 37-38 year olds who are still playing the big games to our should be regulars in there mid 20s and youngsters 18-20 is massive. There is no visable continuity that is why the oldies are continually relied on. The mid 20s should be regulars are so injury ravaged they shouldn't be here. That leaves us looking at the team thinking where are we going? What is the plan? Why are we not buying or playing younger players? All very valid questions.

The team as a whole is not in too bad a position but we still need 3-5 players to complete the transition in most peoples opinions but the biggest problem is we all see them as 2 CM's a LB, a Nani replacement and maybe a CB. Does SAF see it that way? Doubt it!

We all have a right to question mate whether you pay for a season ticket or jst buy a shirt it doesnt matter, what does matter is that for all the negativity or head rolling calls, the praise or criticism is that we all want Utd to stay strong and hope to keep us competitive through the manager change. IMO sooner rather than later.

Jono

Can I just say this is one of the most frank and honest assessments of the team that I have ever seen on this site. We all want to get behind the team and support players who wear the shirt, and we can all recognise what SAF has done for the club in the last 25 years. But this does not mean that we can't and shouldn't be critically of the way the club is being run. The manta for the last few years is that Manchester United are going to try to adopt a high-tempo passing game and invest in youth. As Jono says, we aren't seeing either of these things on the pitch. I was baffled when I saw Powell on the wing on Wednesday. This is a player who has already been shifted back from the number 10 role into the centre of the park and now he's being shifted to another position so a 39 year old can have a run about. Investing in youth means having faith in young players' ability to play in their best position.

Danny Pughnited

Jono, it's not a competition for the longest post you know :)

Mate, I know there are issues here at the club regarding Fergie and his decision making.

My summary is basically, he's made this club what it is, and he deserves to use up a little credit in the bank.

Problems have been there for a few years, yes, but in those few years, we've still won a title and made two ECL finals, in a more competitive than ever era.

Is that really grounds for calling for a manager to go? We're still showing we are competitive.

Some people on here seem to think you can just wave a magic wand, or flick a switch and everything will be fine.

Look at Chelsea and City, buying dream teams and players we would love to have had. Not making a great difference really, is it? City are three points behind and rumours abound about a change of manager already, and Chelsea are just a joke.

There's a lot to be said for continuity, routine and a settled infrastructure, and we have that in spades. Don't be wishing everything away so quickly.

If we end up being 10 or 12 points off the title winners at the end of the season, then fair enough, I'll come on here and hold my hands up that things maybe need to change.

However, I still believe we will be there or thereabouts, and with clubs like City and Chelsea throwing the money around, that's a realistic view.

Some will come on and shout, 'We're Utd, there or thereabouts isn't good enough!' Well, it's reality again guys. Even without the American leeches, we still couldn't compete with the sheiks and the Russian oligarchs in the transfer market.

We've remained competitive during the last few years in the face of new threats, and the manager deserves credit for that. Look how big teams like Liverpool and Arsenal have fallen away - can you honestly say 20 years ago you would ever have seen Liverpool in the position they're in now? That could have been us.

StevieK

Sorry mate but I just dont have the attendtion span to read posts longer than 10 lines ;)

IrishRed

Jono finally someone who thinks like me !

dio

I think everyone is talking sense. No one is calling for the manager to go, we just need to start playing the way the manager told us we will a couple of years ago.
Problem is that we wanted to play with speed and we have Giggs, Scholes, Carrick, Fletcher and Rio in our team. That doesnt agree with what the manager wants to do.
I am sure some of the boys in the U21's would make a difference. At the same time, we've got to trust saf until the end of the season and see what happens.
One thing that should be changed sooner rather than later is Mike Phelan being replaced with someone who knows tactics. Cause Phelan is not up to it.
Thnks you and good luck to the team against city, I hope we go out there and compete like we used to.
NoMidfield

Jono

Great post and wished I had written it because it pretty much says everything I wanted to say but better :)

Shahram

Who's kidnapped the real NoMidfield, and what have you done with him?!? :)

StevieK

Steve

The problems have been there for years and thats a big issue as before a younger SAF was changing massive players in the team before they were declining whereas now we have been and are still relying on players past the startings of the decline. This is all to the detriment of the team as a whole. His best achievement in recent years is sticking with Rafa after G Nev retired and look how he has turned out. If he has that faith in a player he had to play at that time even though he was as rough around the edges as say Buttner looks he should be able to do the same with others ie Scholes, Giggs and Evra. You see Ashley Westwood who is of similar physical attributes as Powell and has taken the step into the Villa team in his stride. These 18-21 year olds nowadays are far more developed than they have ever been. For the most part I think many players at this age are ready for the step up and the pressures of the modern game. SAF would still be the ideal man for a few years yet if he were far more accommodating of new age tactics, new age money and new age players.

I would have loved to have seen V Cluj a 4-3-3 including Fletch, Powell and and Petrucci in the middle. With Rooney playing in front and Fletch alongside that is more than enough exp to play with is it not? These guys will be playing with those players if they get there, not Giggs and Scholes. Another point is you mention chucking allot of young players in together and seem to point to a lack of understanding but most of these guys would have been playing in the ressies together so all it would be to them is playing with a couple of better players whilst learning together. That is the same philosophy the fledgelings were brought on with. 4-5 of them progress at the same time and they feed off each others enthusiasm thus helping each other develop. At the minute we are bringing through 1 at a time while buying other 19 year olds yet only playing the purchased ones so where does that leave the Tunners or Petrucci's etc? As I said why spend 5 years proving yourself when players like Jones and De Gea only had to do it for a year with another team before the manager shows 16-18m pounds worth of faith in them?

The previous SAF that axed the likes of Ince, Hughes, Stam etc is not with us anymore. We have a more cautious older man who thinks of Manchester United as his train set and at the minute is playing the fat controller. Rather than rock the boat in his last years he is sticking by his legendary players, his trusted right and left hand men and his faith lies with them. That is not how he used to work and it is not how we should work.

Can you see MP staying when the new manager comes in? I have no doubt he will move on after SAF moves. I cannot see how any new manager would need him. He takes training at the minute but our new man is not going to sit in his office like SAF does acting as the father figure, the new man will be in the thick of it hopefully getting mixed in with the players and creating a whole new togetherness we know works well. I cannot see how the main man can sit in his office and allow the minions to take the training without fully overseeing it.

The league table although it looks very good at the minute only looks like that due to City not having started well and Chelsea imploding earlier than usual not because we have been good by any means. If Chelsea get a top striker in Jan they will start firing big style IMO and City just need a new manager which hopefully they don't sort out till the summer which will give us the chance to stick with them. Our main problem area in CM even if a player is brought in this Jan (I doubt it) we will still be short as they will need pairing with what we have and we should be looking to pair them with younger hungry talented players of which we don't have many of or are not giving the chances to. What good will say Strootman do if he ends up paired with Giggs in a CM 2 against a CM 3 of a team like Swansea? Nothing probably. We need a couple of signings and of the quality to take over from Giggs and Scholes and be the main men for us. This costs money! Look at Bayern last year. One of the top CMers in the world and they go out and blow their budget on getting him a very top rated younger player for big bucks to play with him. Is it any wonder they have turned the tables again on Dortmund and are leading the German league convincingly again?

This investment has not been needed over night has it? We have all been praying for at least 1 CMer the last 6+ windows yet we have had none. Not one in that time. Oh wait we have, we resigned Scholes my bad. That for a team of our standing is nothing short of flabbergasting. I cannot see how everyone except the stubborn manager can see it. After every game recently the forums, the papers, the fanzines are awash with open eyed fans, journalists that are writing the same over and over ˜Utd have lacked control in the midfield, Utd have lost the battle in CM, Utd were over run in the centre' it's the same almost every game. If this was the first year of it your argument of SAF using up his credit is valid but its been 3 years. The signs were there when Blackpool and the likes were overrunning a 35 year old Scholes and here we are still playing him and Giggs.

If the manager had kept us up with a flying City and Chelsea then fair enough you could say hats off to him while still wondering where the team is going. But we are marginally ahead of a miss firing Chelsea and a mis-managed City team while fighting back against teams like Braga and struggling v Cluj and Galatararay. I don't think many fans hold us highly enough to think we are confident enough to take on Madrid, Barca etc and be confident in winning. I would love Barca in the next round to see what happens. It would be the biggest shock to many a Utd fan if SAF set up v them to try and out play them again. Would he try it a third time? I think he would. Then wonder what he would come up with as an excuse. I think he has missed the title last year and had he got it he may have left then but without a trophy he stayed on. If he goes trophyless again this year what happens? Is he going to keep on until he wins something or will he step aside? That is a very big question that may well have to be asked.

I'm not calling for his head but I hope he goes before he makes a mess of it and to be honest IMO he is teetering on that point already.

Football waits on no man.

Jono

At last - an unblinkered United fan

Puzzled

Puzzled, 17 points ahead of you and barely a third of the way into the season, yet Liverpool are on the rise according to 99% of your page. Embarrassing and blinkered I am sure you would agree.

Sydney!

A lot of sense spoken on this thread...

We are not far off having a fantastic squad - we can all see the changes that are needed! Given our financial situation, getting us there should be realistic too

We just all want SAF to see it the same way and finally make those changes we've been craving for 2/3 seasons. It's frustrating at times that we can see what needs doing so clearly but the manager's stubborness seems to get in the way

Having said that, if he manages to win us the PL this season and finishes off the transition with at least a LB, CM and LAM/LW I'll be happy to see him here indefinitely as he will have shown he still has the magic!

I'll keep my faith in the big man achieving this, for now :)

Gav

Jono

Spot on. We all know what the man has done for the club and grateful but let's not forget he has had incredible resources in the 90's and early 2000's at his disposal until the leaches showed up and we were breaking transfer records and buying players others could not afford.

Whether we like it or not football is so much about money now and if you have the funds you can assemble championship winning teams.

We are in transition and thankfully have plenty of money. This summer realistically(Jan window many players will not be available) is where the buck stops and he needs to demonstrate a real shift from this team to a new team that has been assembled with new players to again establish us a European power.

The good news is we are not far off and but need a fresh approach that emphasizes the importance of the centre midfield area over other positions, which is the managers job.

If we end up spending the bulk of our budget on wingers and strikers again then I am afraid things need a change.

Shahram

06 Dec 2012 23:44:54
ed02.... i pinged www.gulliblefairytalestosuckinnaivesoccerfans.com and it actually resolves to the same IP as caughoffrubbish.com77

genious....

if only that were true... we believe you but it is fun to read some of the crap they come up with..

Oxred

Love the irony of somebody spelling genius wrong lol.

GDS

07 Dec 2012 02:33:52
(Banter please Eds)

Just arrived back from work after a 14 hour shift - that's real work girls, not 14 hours spent in front of a computer, with my trousers round my ankles, in my bedroom at my parent's house, 'working' at taking Utd to a treble winning season on FM2013 - and see Devil has been on whipping up his teenage cheerleaders into a frenzy, by misquoting, misrepresenting and twisting nearly everything I said yesterday to suit his own needs.

That's a classic smokescreen tactic mate, well done. Used by people who either have no faith in their own points, or have limited knowledge or experience in a certain subject. Yours Devil, would appear to be the concept of squad rotation and the use of youth players. I'm too tired now to list the holes in your and your mates juvenile rantings - I'll do that tomorrow when I've had some rest. I'll make tonights points, short and snappy.

Redman - "I don't want to watch Giggs and Scholes". Tell you what mate, next time you're thinking of going to a game, give Fergie a ring beforehand, and see if he'll run the teamsheet by you so you can make your mind up whether or not it's worth going to 'support' your team that game. I'm sure he'll forego giving squad players much needed game time, and guys returning from injury a run out, just to facilitate your demand for youth. Do you even realise how childish that comment sounds? I'm not going next week if Rooney is playing, Percy's not going if Nani isn't playing, likewise Sydney with Cleverley.

Nomidfield - I have purposefully refrained from replying to any of your posts when you started on this site, as they were so obnoxiously negative towards the manager and some of the club greats, that I just assumed you were a troll. You've done nothing in the interim to change my mind on that.

Devil, one question for tonight. What team would you have put out last night, in the never-ending demand for youth to be given a chance? How youthful must it be? The U16s, U18s, U21s? You do that and you risk them getting a very public humiliation, their morale hitting rock bottom, and the instant success brigade coming on here stating they're not good enough. Do Barca, Real or any other top club ever put out 11 youngsters in any game? No, they put one or two of those flirting round the fringes of the first team (Powell and Wooton), and blend them in with more experienced players. So its not just Fergie that doesn't know what he's doing - its Guardiola and Mourinho too in your book. How have these guys never come to you asking for advice? Do they not know you took Fleetwood Town from the Blue Square to the ECL in successive seasons?

You need some older players in there - that tactic of putting in 11 youngsters wouldn't even work in FM. So, bearing this in mind, along with the fact we have a big game on Sunday and don't want to risk any of our certain starters, bearing in mind we have a moral obligation to the tournament to field a competitive side, bearing in mind two of our best midfielders are injured - who would you have played, instead of Giggs and Scholes? This is called dealing with reality mate, not just coming out with soundbites and infantile demands to make yourself look good in front of your other 'useful fools'.

This used to be a site where adults came on, had a bit of easy-going banter, had reasoned, but passionate discussions about topical Utd issues, and tried to persuade others to come round to their view by force of argument. Some of the one-liners were brilliant too.

Now, it just resembles a kindergarden, with kids spewing out the biggest load of inane drivel, demanding instant success and demanding world class players be signed, regardless of whether the player has any interest in coming to Utd or not. They appear to have no respect, appreciation, or knowledge of this club, it's history and those who have served it so well.

Fergie may have his shortcomings, and some of our older players are obviously not the players they were, but I would have thought the success they have helped bring to this club, especially from where we were, would allow them a little credit in the bank. Hopefully there are other supporters out there who feel the same.

I'll just remind you, we're top of the league by three points having beat Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool already. We qualified for the last 16 of the ECL with two games to go. All this with a senile manager, two useless geriatrics in the squad, players being played out of position, non-existent tactics, too many old players, too many young players, Nani being used, Nani not being used, and a left back who can't defend.

I tell you what - that Fergie one is the luckiest manager I've ever seen......

StevieK

That's "short and snappy"? Are people only allowed to express their views if they happen to agree with yours? Weird post.

Golden goose

nikz

StevieK

I mistakenly thought I was a customer who having paid good hard earned money to watch the team was allowed an opinion on which players I want to watch. I said nothing about not going if Scholes and Giggs not playing but my strong opinion is that they need to move on and I would rather pay money to watch kids striving to get a chance than two geriatrics embarrassing themselves. I have paid money to watch garbage in the seventies and eighties so do not want to go again to watch ageing hasbeens. Again I ask you how much do you spend going to Old Trafford to allow you such a strong opinion. Did you spend £50 for a ticket or did you sit there on your computer typing massive long posts.
Perhaps some simple economics, supply and demand. Will people who have a choice pay to watch a game like that? You couldn't miss the empty seats and it is after all entertainment but I guess you blindly think all fans don't have to be entertained and we are not allowed to be annoyed at the garbage presented on the pitch. I think you need to look at yourself rather than criticise everyone else.

Red Man

07 Dec 2012 07:39:17
I agree with you Stevie.

Whistler.

Steve you do interesting views. You tend to criticize people for having a pessimistic view on the current team and believe we should just bow our head and be grateful accept what we are seeing.

I like to question why are we in this state and what is the longterm plan. I would like the manager just for once come out and say what are the plans.

Whilst I agree with you on the youngster and why they are not being played, which in my view, they are either not ready or just not good enough, it still does not mask how poor this teams make up is and why it was not addressed over the last few years.

A lot of the players being talked about here were acquired by other teams for very little money and one has to ask himself where was our scouting and tactical awareness that not only did we miss out but there seems to be no plan.

All great things in life come to an end at some point and whilst I have a lot of respect for SAF, I have to question some of his decision making.

Whilst you rightfully point out that we are top of the league, I point out that for a club of our size(commercially and fan base), the wins are deceiving as one could argue with the exception of Arsenal the losing sides where the better teams. I also point out that we realistically not even a top 8 side in Europe.

We are being out played in Europe by clubs who are minnows and on a fraction of our budget.


Even our transfer activity is mystery to me, This past summer we spend the entire transfer period chasing Moura and Hazzard who are wingers and they were never going to be a solution to our most needed issues.


I like every fan hope that you may be right and hope the team succeeds but I still believe we will win nothing this year and then some serious questions need to be asked and people are accountable as they are employed buy the club to deliver results.

Shahram

I think he makes some good points to be honest
jred

Oooohh ten weeks without the nicotine rush is really making someone very grouchy.

I replied to you directly cause you shot a poster down cause he had an opinion about the team that was selected Wed night...does he as a supporter not have that right according to you ??

Stevie if you want to accept the inept displays and strange team selections then you go ahead and accept mediocrity and tell us we are top of the League finished top of our blah blah blah you go bury your head in the sand and pretend everything is great some of us however expect more.

Watching a dead rubber game with a 38 and 39 yr old in the centre of the park is why some are so p1ssed off...why couldnt Tunners have been partnered with one of them guys he has played in senior games before and done well he is doing great with the u21s and IMO not one on here would give a sh1t if he didnt have a great game and we still lost. We would be delighted to see one of the younger lads getting a run.

You and others say Oh if the young lads play and dont do great everyone will say they are no good and moan about him being in the team again but Scott wooton had a nightmare against Chelsea and was in the team the other night I didnt see one poster moaning about him in the team yet they were moaning about Giggs so supporters WILL give the kids the benefit and that has probably done Wooton the power of good.(Chelsea game)

Devil Dust.

StevieK

So, you 'need' some older players in there, yeah?
I agree. A few older heads, you know, 32-35yrs old, are very handy to have.

But 38-39yrs old is too old. They can barely run anymore mate, it's pathetic.

RED_SKY

Ok, maybe not as short and snappy as I intended it to be :)

Redman - ticket + boat/plane + accomodation +food/drink - that enough for me to qualify? I think they're also installing a switch at the entrance to OT, which you can flick on for instant entertainment when you arrive.

Devil - if you had just come on and said what you said just now, fair enough. But you just misrepresented everything I said previously - it was basically lies. So, yes I reacted. I may well have not bitten if I had still been smoking. I'll reiterate, the other top clubs would never played 11 youngsters in a competitive game. Why? Because they're not ready, and because getting humiliated on the pitch does not benefit them - it would stall, or even set back their progress God knows how much. But hey, as long as you get to be entertained, stuff em, eh?

Everyone else - I do not accept mediocrity, but I am realistic to appreciate that football runs in cycles, and we are going through a difficult period at the minute - Barca weren't always this good to watch after all. But some of you seem to think it can all be solved so easily, that I genuinely do wonder why you've never had a call from Utd, asking to help out. We need a world class lb, a world class winger, 2 world class midfielders, a world class no.2....Like it is so easy just to go and get these guys.

Sorry to burst your bubble guys, but we're not the best thing on offer out there right now to prospective signings. In an era where money talks, unless a player specifically wants to come here (Kagawa/RVP), it is bloody difficult to get them.

You have the new money at City, Chelsea, PSG, even Anzhi, before we even get to the likes of Barca, Real, the Milans, Bayern etc We also have financial restraints to work within, lifestyle issues etc - again, reality bites. Its not just as easy as tapping the keyboard again to increase the bid.

We all have our opinions, and never once have I said you are not allowed yours. Passionate argument is what this great game and this great club inspire in us.

But to be honest, if the opinions are just 2 or 3 line soundbites designed to get a reaction from the mob, full of vitriol for managers/players etc, stating opinion as fact, demanding unrealistic outcomes, juvenile flights of fancy, then I reserve the right to say "that's crap, grow up and stop your whingeing".

Whistler - thanks mate :)

StevieK

ps this was meant to be short and snappy too :)

Why do you keep misquoting what I am saying and the point I am trying to make.

I do NOT want a team of kids getting humiliated for my benefit..what I want is when we get the opportunity in a meaningless game why the hell are we playing old men instead of SOME young lads...CM is our weakest position in terms of talent so why are we not saying lets give whoever a run see how he handles it ?

Why is that so hard to get through to you ??

Devil Dust.

Red Sky - I'll ask you the same question then mate - who? What 32-35 year olds were available? I'm simply pointing out the realities of our position - it's just not as easy as saying pick him and drop him. Giggs and Scholes were the only two available, mostly because they were expendable bearing Sunday in mind.

StevieK

StevieK

"why the hell are we playing old men instead of SOME young lads"

Devil, we started with 8 players under the age of 23 and ONE player in his 30s. How many did you want exactly?

StevieK

Some people there is just no talking to !

Devil Dust.

Steve why is it difficult to buy some of the pieces? Granted maybe not all of it in one window. we have spend 88 million pounds in the last 3 windows (not counting what was spent on Smalling,Hernandez, kagawa, buttner, lindegard as there is official info on what we paid).

Are you saying it is unrealistic to think that we could/should have spend 35 million of that money on a couple of centre midfielders instead?

How is 30 million on Berba a wise investment, when he sits on the bench all of last year and then sold for 4 million.

I would be happy to listen to how they have contributed in a meaningful way to the team and really make a difference being on the pitch. It is quite odd how we all have a laugh about LFC misfortunes, which is predominantly driven by paying too much for the wrong players over the last few seasons. We are no different but lucky that we are bigger and can make mistakes but still have the funds to buy.

We have money and the manager is given funds to improve the team every year. No one is asking to go buy 30 million type players for each position. There are quite a few players out there playing in top leagues at reasonable prices and yes occasionally we do need to buy the big name because we are a big club.

The issue is he just does not buy for some reason for any of the key areas that needs fixing now. When was the last time we put a meaningful bid in for a proper centre midfielder?

We read about all these players that we are supposedly interested in but nothing ever happens. Most of the interest is in strikers or wingers and what does he want to do with all these guys.

Where is the sense of dumping two games in CL for a pure profit of 2 million euros.

If you read the financial statements from last year it is clear our exit from the cups and CL was very costly as there is very little difference in terms of money between 1st and 2nd in pl. When everyone knows this, how do you justify this state of flux of doing nothing about fixing some of the parts to compete in Europe.


Shahram

Shahram - do you ever think we might have money to spend, but we just can't attract the very top players, and that's why we have to spend it on those maybe a rung or two below that level?

We're so full of our own self-importance, that we just think every top player, Neymar, Vidal et al, must want to come to Utd.

Even during the 90s this wasn't the case - we could never attract the Zidanes, the Del Pieros, the Tottis, the Batistutas, the Ronaldinhos, the Ronaldos, the Nestas, and we were bloody good back then!

Like I said already, unless you want to come here, there's a lot more enticing offers around for the world's best. If you were offered the chance to live in Barcelona, Paris, Milan, Madrid for the same wages as over here, where would most young men go?

I don't think in our transfer targets, we have as much choice in the matter, as you and others seem to think.

StevieK

StevieK

I know mate, there was no 32-35yr olds, which is partly my gripe (no, I don't want us to specifically target that age group in the enxt window, haha).

Basically, our squad is stagnant and SAF must take a lot of the blame - we have no middle ground. We either have youngsters that SAF clearly has little faith in, or elder statesmen. SAF has let our CM get like this, by refusing to play the youth and allowing Giggs and Scholes to play on beyond their years.....all the while, rewarding them for poor showings by picking them the week after.

RED_SKY

Devil - instead of signing off with a dramatic strop - I don't think I misquoted you in my previous post to you, I even put it in quotation marks - you still haven't answered the main question about Wednesday. What team would you have put out?

Bearing in mind all the things I mentioned - the need to be competitive, the need for some experience in there, the preference not to be humiliated and lose our proud 3 season-long home record, the need to be entertained, injuries to midfielders, and the fact we play City on Sunday. What team could you have magically devised to win that match?

I'm genuinely intrigued at getting an insight into your managerial thinking on how to rotate a squad properly.....

StevieK

Sorry meant no official transfer cost on lindegaard, smalling,hernandez,kagawa,buttner but can safely assume that we have spent another 35 million there . all added up 120 million in 3 seasons.



Shahram

07 Dec 2012 00:28:58
No chance of vidal hes only just sighed for jueve and tbh the guy is overated.

Stretford ender

Oh My Days ! This is the biggest load of tripe I have read on here... Arturo Vidal is one of the best central midfielder's bar Xavi in the world....

Let's be honest here. Vidal with 50% of his ability would walk into our starting XI but he is nowhere near the best central midfielders in the world. He is a very very good box to box midfielder. Nothing less, nothing more.

Arturo Vidal is the finest ball winner in the world, bar none. Add to that a horse-like engine, quality on the ball, good passing, great finishing, and his ability to booss the midfield, and you have argubly the finest midfielder in the world. Only Xavi, Pirlo, Toure and Schweisteiger are on the same level.

Mick