Manchester United Banter Archive December 07 2013

 

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07 Dec 2013 23:16:26
I know like me everyone is bit annoyed and frustrated! Infact scared even, becoz this feeling is alien to us! And with all the media hype and pundit bashing us! It puts doubt in our mind. But this is not any ordinary club, we are United and I know that we will come back triumphant! To Be a true Champion, we must face an obstacles of biggest magnitude! And at the moment, with rubbish squad, the new manager, and the new era. We are facing that greatest Obstable, now whether We come out as a True Champion or a sore Loser. Partially depends on us. We have to believe in our club and with that the new Manager! Who knows we might see the attractive football, a new United like a phoenix as we reborn from the fire of Old SAF era! A better, stronger, ever United. Manchester United!

Ps I think everyone should watch THE CLASS OF 92!

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Red Samurai

The sentiment is spot-on but the fact is, we don't have a 'class of 92' in the wings do we? We have what we have, and what we have isn't good enough to be a top team. Without signings, we will struggle.

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Red Samurai a lot of us have supported Manchester United for more than 27 years so no its not alien to us. Look at the clubs decline following the busby era so what makes you think just because we are MU that we will be champions under Moyes?

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Spot on Acker. When Busby retired we all thought things would carry on as normal, but George Best wanted out as he saw an aging team, lacking star signings. (Ring any bells)?
We have gone full circle and the last time this happened we didn't win the league for nearly 30 years! Maybe City will now put up a banner like the one we had for years.
Losing games isn't a crime, but Moyes brand of football is. Midfielders that only pass sideways and backwards, strikers that have to come back to their own half to get the ball, and a bench that wouldn't improve most Premiership teams, let alone ours.
The season is over for us, time to put our faith in our youngsters. Not exactly the class of 92 but could they be any worse than our so called 'stars'?

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Tommy gun very good post

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07 Dec 2013 21:50:56
LIverpool fan here so if you do not want to read further I will understand.

Moyes is not a bad manager. He is actually an excellent manager. But he is not suited to Man Utd. It is simply the wrong club for him. There are lots of reasons for this but in simple terms he is the wrong man at the wrong time.

You really should have gone for Klopp. I am so glad that you didn't.

You could miss out on top 4 this year and if so the RVP will be off to Spain.

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"You could miss out on top 4 this year and if so the RVP will be off to Spain."

Swap RVP for the "bucked toothed one" in that sentence and we are talking about your lot. you have a big few weeks coming up which will tell us if you lot are the real deal this season. I feel you are one injured striker away from falling away dramatically!

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I reckon they will lost 3 out of the next 6. Let's see if I am correct. They have improved a lot but still not there against the top teams. Suarez is Brilliant I must say and will take something in the region of 60 mill or even higher.

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07 Dec 2013 21:40:53
At some point you need to keep the faith. Dynasties need time to bed in. We need top four this year, and challenge for league and cups till end. We are still there or there abouts.

Yes we need some players, but we have a few excellent youth players coming through also.

No over reactions please, the ball isn't running for us just now, and by the end IV the season we'll come good.

Stand by Moyes.

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Mate, I am firmly for keeping the faith - we don't want to become a Chelsea overnight, sacking managers for fun. but when does this stop?

We have shown no signs of improvement? What youth players? Only Januzaj is shining, maybe 1-2 who could come in slowly but surely.

The first team needs surgery, and did in the summer. Surgery was delayed and we could now start reaping what was sown this summer. Unless things drastically improve, and by drastically, I mean 4th which I'd be happy with now, we will STRUGGLE to attract the players we need.

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07 Dec 2013 21:36:00
Aside from the result it's worrying to read Moyes press conference. He only talks about luck and no confidence and he said he didn't take RVP off because what others would say. The reaction of the press is no reason to make a decision, it shows weak management and was stupid as RVPs problem could be aggravated and he would miss more games. Very frustrated. At this point, even signing Sneijder in January would be welcomed, we need something. Perhaps our new Cantona?

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Im not sure what feed you were watching, but around the 60-70 min mark there was a close up of D moyes shouting at RVP two or three times, asking if he was still ok to continue. It was RVP who said he was fine, that's why he was left on the field. later in the post match interview Moyes said ' if ' he had taken RVP off people would have complained, not that he didn't take him off because people would have complained. there's a big difference between these two statements.

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"even signing Sneijder in January would be welcomed"

And so it begins.

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07 Dec 2013 21:21:27
I was dubious when Moyes was announced as manager due to his inexperience but after the Swansea game when SAF called for backing I along with everyone else in the ground was 100% behind him. However, now is proving my thoughts all along were right. Us fans need to stop blaming squad inherited and look at the manager.
1. This squad won the league by 11 points last year.
2. Hearing discontent from players regarding selection, training already.
3. Manager stated Ozil wasn't a player we needed.
4. Anyone with any knowledge of football could see Frllaini wasn't a Man U player, no technical ability whatsoever.
5. After games still speaks like he is manager of Everton eg low expectations, stating he had been in this situation before! No you haven't Moyes, Man Utd losing is a bit different to Everton and Preston.
6. Could any manager honestly say we would be in this same position with a 'proper experienced top level manager' eg Mourinho, Klopp, Ancelotti? I think not.

Job is to big for him and we need to buy the bullet ASAP and realise our mistake as it's difficult now to attract players, so imagine what it's going to be like when we miss Champions League!
An embarrassed red who gave away his ticket today
SC

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07 Dec 2013 22:47:12
moyes was a great manager at everton. every season we punched above our weight.even got a sniff of champions league on one occasion.
what's changed since he went to united
simple answer is he can't handle a club with the resources of united, possibly wary of the old timers.
moyes will have to rebuild united from scratch, get his own players in, just as he did at everton.
can united wait that long?

irish blue

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Irish blue

I agree pal, decent manager who worked wonders really with Everton but this job is too big for him and we can't afford to miss out on Champions league. I'm all for giving people time but he's the wrong man, which his comments, selections, signings are proving

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A manager who has won nothing can't manage a team that has won everything. It just doesn't make any sense. Managers shouldn't have any say in who succeeds them.
Moyes is way out of his depth. There is more dead wood in the squad than there is on the Mary Rose.
It will be interesting to see who is up for the fight and who will want out.
This has been coming for a while and fault can only really placed at the door of the owners for not providing the funds. The owners and the management went to sleep after 2008. Teams are no longer scared of United or Old Trafford
What next? I do think even the Champions League may be too much now. Might be a good thing in the long run.

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07 Dec 2013 21:04:08
'Change it? I don't think I've changed anything; it's the same players, ' he said.

'I have brought one player in. If I'd changed it then there would be something to be critical of.

'But we've gone along with basically the same players.'


OK David, so if you haven't changed anything, then why are "basically the same group of players" struggling so much? They are Champions of England after all. Therefore this points to you being one of the main problems, surely?

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07 Dec 2013 20:57:34
A lot of people seem to be arguing this is a great team who walked the league only last season.
Well honest question what do people think is so great
The full backs
Centre backs
Centre mids
Wingers.
Imo it's a decent team but that's it and a couple of injuries have shown how little top talent there is in it

Moyes wasn't my first choice but I don't think there are many managers that would have this team top of the table .
For me the team needs rebuilt

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No question jred - the team will need rebuilding, but because Moyes has decimated the whole infrastructure and all the relationships between staff and players, the rebuilding process will take longer and be more expensive than it needed to have been had he opted to leave the base in place and concentrate on buying some realistically acquirable decent players during the course of the summer.

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Peashooter

Rebuilding things generally requires a change of personnel. The old guard will not be flag bearers of change and prove to be disruptive in most cases. it is common for a new manager to go into a new club and take his own team in with him.

If does not work he has to go but 15 games is never going to be enough to judge the man after 26 years of SAF.

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07 Dec 2013 20:34:19
At some point you have to blame Moyes. Yes, SAF left a squad in which there had been inadequate investment particularly in midfield, but it was Moyes who fired all the back room staff, it was Moyes who failed to identify and acquire any players to fix the well known shortcomings of the team, it was Moyes who invested 27m in Fellaini and re-signed Nani, it was Moyes who didn't get rid of any deadwood in the summer, it's Moyes training methods and tactics, and it's Moyes who's failing to inspire the players. Whether it was his arrogance or insecurity, these are his decisions and one simply cannot make excuses on his behalf for any of them. You take the job and the money, you take the criticism with it.

We all knew we had latent problems and it would not be easy to take over from SAF, but this goes beyond our worst expectations. As many have correctly pointed out he inherited a team (both on and off the field) that, despite obvious deficiencies, were champions. By firing the back room he lost all connection with and intimate knowledge of the players. Now he is going to have to rebuild the whole team and that's going to take 3-5 years, even if he has the inherent managerial and tactical ability, which frankly I doubt.

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So, do you think its moyes?

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07 Dec 2013 21:18:44
listen everyone. I said this several times in the past. David Moyes is just not the man to take us forward and never will be. if he had the credentials then Everton would have improved years ago and why have none of the premiership clubs approached him sooner. anyway the situation is now very deep and he is out of his depth. the grim reality is now that any players we approach will look at where we are in the table and have second thoughts. also the likes of Rooney and Van Persie will seek other clubs that are competing in the Champions league.
there is no loyalties in players anymore. The Glaziers will be looking at this situation very closely now with ther eye on shares/stock market. Uniteds value will fall dramatically if we don not finish in top 4.

I can see people now saying this is negative and I waited for a period to give moyes a chance but it will not get better with this complete clown in charge

i have seen the bad time guys believe me but we are now at a different level now and certainly Bayern, Barca, Real Chelsea and City would not have allowed this too happen for sure.

Stockport Red

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I think Moyes got it all wrong from the very start. The back room staff were Fergie's men, but they should still be in place for stability. Perhaps Phelan was the one to get rid of as he was the right hand man, but keeping the same training methods etc was important. We can hope that Moyes isn't so arrogant that he won't take Rio's comments on board - he has to for the sake of the feeling in the squad and for the sake of his job. It would be interesting to know who wants him there and who doesn't, I suspect that players like Rio, Evra. The older players with the big personalities will probably be pulling the strings and will still feel like Fergie's men. Moyes is now forced to continue the revolution, he has to cut out who he feels necessary and then he has to sign his own big players.

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07 Dec 2013 20:14:32
I might need to rethink my post from earlier about sticking with Moyes

Juts read he said he still thinks you will win the league??
80 + points? Possibly 85 + That would mean an ave of OVER 2 and a half points per game left to play at least!
Its a very unlikely scenario and his comments do make him sound a bit desperate and for the first sour like he thinks he's out of his depth.

To me it would have been better to say I believe in the team let's see where we are in March

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Sorry last post was supposed to read for the first time, not first sour.
Not sure how I managed that

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Which I thinkhe did didn't he? Qoutes I saw was 'i believe we will be close come the end of the season'
If he has anything else I have not seen that.

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Yes, I think he said "we will be close come the end of the season because my players are champions".

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My apologies to David Moyes
It seems the article I read had mix quoted him.
Please revert to original post and opinion.
Sorry chaps

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07 Dec 2013 19:13:50
Just heard David Moyes to get an OBE?!
Out Before Easter!
2009 Captain

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07 Dec 2013 18:24:13
Where to start?
The first point is that any team without Rooney, Carrick, and with an unfit RVP could struggle. Having said that I do worry that the team seem bereft of ideas and are playing at a tempo that is so unlike Utd of old.
Can you put all the blame on Moyes, definitely not, however I believe he has made his life a lot more difficult than he needed to by sacking all the backroom staff. What he should have done is to have kept them at least for one season to utilise their knowledge of the players and thrir experience.
I remember Graeme Souness talking about when he took over Liverpool and he said he tried to change things too quickly. The old motto if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Now let us look at the team.
Irrespective of what anyone says about this team winning the league last year, it didn't the team that won the league last year was not playing today and in fact has not started that many games together this year. It also was able to utilise Paul Scholes for a few crucial games.
The other teams all strengthened considerably and that is showing.
My fear now is that the team are so lacking in confidence I cannot see them being able to alter the situation sufficiently this season.
My other concern is that, maybe and there is no way of really knowing this, is that the supposedly harder training regime means that they don't, with the exception of Rooney who has undoubtedly improved seem to have the energy left to impose themselves at the end of a game.
Individually
DDG fine not at fault for the goal
Evra, caught out of position too often and headed the wrong way for the goal
Vidic & Evans ok
Rafael fine
Jones energetic but needs a ball playing midfielder for him to work in midfield
Cleverly ok but not inspiring
Januzaj good but got knocked off the ball quite easily sometimes
Nani no improvement
Hernandez busy but needs better service
RVP poor but understandable given lack of playing time recently
Subs
Zaha better than Nani but too little time to impact.
Valencia no better than Rafael
Anderson reasonable energy but lacking confidence it appeared
Tactically we cannot continue to play 442 against teams who play 5 in midfield and expect to create space and or chances, especially when our wingers are not good enough and are central midfielders are not the strength they once were, especially without Carrick.
I believe sadly that the top 4 will be (not necessarily in order)
Arsenal, Liverpool, Man City and Chelsea. I think we will end up 5th and Spurs will be 6th.
I have supprted Utd since they were in the 2nd division and I am not going to stop now, but I would rather lose 6-5 going for the win at the end than clinging on for 1-1 or 0-0.

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I agree with the 5 in midfield with a midfield as weak as ours we have to start playing 3 in the center. Also stop playing wellbeck on the wing he's been poor recently. About players though I have to disagree with vidic and evans. Vidic shouldn't be playing 3 games in a week. Evans looks uncomfortable on the ball when passed to just wants to pass it on a lack of composure. Jones and clev were far to close on the pitch not once did they show to pass out from the back which then led to long ball bolton tactics. Which suited newcastle. Anderson atleast showed for the defence and drove forward. Think your alil unfair on nani he wasnt great but zaha did absolutly nothing when he came on. Although I think him and adnan should have switched wings. Adnan tryed to take on the world and went down looking for fouls if rafa wasnt tired he should have been subbed. Moyes tactics are strange valencia has played well recently but gets dropped. Yet welbeck was awful against spurs but started against everton. Well titles over and without a lot of luck so practically is top 4. Personally i'd rather not finish in europa league as u can tell with liverpool the lack of a unwanted distraction is giving positive results. Hopefully moyes will see that money needs spending in jan value in the market shouldn't be a issue when your in our position. Hopefully the results will pick up else moyes may lose players in the dressing room if he's not careful

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07 Dec 2013 18:07:59
you know last season, this is what I really wanted to happen at utd.
1/ the great saf to retire.
2/ giggs to get one more season.
3/ david moyes to be the new manager.
4/ anderson to get more games.
5/ rvp to start throwing hissy fits, and pretend to be injured all the time.
well all this just goes to prove, sometimes you really do get all you wish for, lol.

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6/ A girlfriend.

You're right, only sometimes.

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Why would lfc want a girlfriend?

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But Anderson has played more time by this point last season than this!

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7. A Job

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8. Your own car.

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9. A free trip to a caravan park in Rhyl so you can do your Christmas "Shopping"

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10. Suarez to get a makeover in looks and personality.

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07 Dec 2013 18:04:55
Hi all as shocked as you are by this weeks results for yourselves.

But do you think if you change manager without spending city kind of money it will make any real difference?
Just my opinion but I think you have to give him a couple of seasons, AF UTD career didn't start well and pre AF you went through lots of managers and millions without a tittle.
Who can blame you for being in shock and hurt but panic decisions will only put future success for you further away I think

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But SAF didn't take over the champions

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07 Dec 2013 18:01:11
I watched the game today and the players did not put in a shift, they also didn't demonstrate they knew how to get the ball forward and were too slow in moving the ball. The body language gave away where we are and adding to Rio's comment I would say the team were going through the motions, being professional but are not playing for the manager. We had no fight, no sign of belief and our confidence is shot. How is our confidence shot after 15 league games since we became Champions? How has our new manager destroyed the confidence to win games?

Moyes was the wrong choice to begin with, he didn't have the experience nor had he demonstrated the ability to win anything. Even so our decline has been utterly shocking. He could turn to his experienced back room staff full of winners but he sacked them and replaced them with Everton's, who at least should be able to advise him on mid table football.

We are at a crossroads, a major crossroads, the manager is not the leader he needs to be and there could be serious damage to the club if he is allowed to continue on this path. I take no pleasure in saying this but Moyes must be dismissed before Monday and SAF asked to guide us to the end of the season and hopefully 4th place. Then Manchester United should get a manager, a leader who is appropriate and push the boat out to get Klopp if possible.

This is not about who we could buy in January this is about who is steering the ship, we could buy Messi and fail if the team don't believe in what the managers vision is. We wasted £27m on Fellaini and he can't get a game in a failing team so why would we trust Moyes again?
Moyes has to go and go now and will someone rip the chosen one banner down.

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{Ed004's Note - Even if SAF is against the idea. Currently Bielsa and Heynckes are unemployed}

Ed004

Bielsa was a disaster at Athletico Bilbao and he will hate our players as they are not what he likes to work with.

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{Ed004's Note - I'm just going by Ed 1 reviews who says he is a fantastic coach}

GCU

You'll just defend Moyes even if you have to say that he's better than Kloop or Mourinho.

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Heynckes would be good. I'm undecided, Moyes deserves a chance BUT if it looks like we are missing out on the top 4 then he has to go.

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He is very unique in his style and highly rated in some quarters but has a tendency to clash with people higher up the chain at the club. His teams are always about players with high degree of technical capability and massive volume of chasing, closing down and pressing(can't spell his name but the southampton manager is similar in some ways). Our guys would not last 45 minutes with him lol

If I am correct he managed Chile as well and did very well with them.

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I got that exact same impression today Redman. Sad really.

I think the board has a big decision to make now, at the moment we will not get top 4 as the players don't seem to be playing for Moyes and it would appear the fans resolve has now been pushed to the limit, I don't think anyone expects us to win all the time and were not arrogant to enough to demand that but this man seems to have changed my club from a title challenging, football playing team, to a team that's negative away from home and one that is losing its home games with dull and predictable football.

Thing is I dnt blame Moyes for all our problems, I woulda took the job, the person I lay a fair bit of blame on is Sir Alex, he picked the new manager when we all knew this was never the ideal situation, but before that he neglected our key weaknesses for so long and then left it to Moyes, after that Moyes must shoulder the flack along with our players.

The fans leaving with 5 mins of normal time to go was the tipping point for me, a few warriors stayed and done our fans proud with the songs but equally I dnt blame the few for leaving.

GGMU
Well never die!

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Hey CTR
You said you'll be coming for, but were you thinking this season or the next one?
Just curios

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Hey MKD english please?

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Sorry mate its rakija's fault (don't have the time to explain to you what rakija is)

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Lol u should lay off that stuff!

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07 Dec 2013 17:27:12
Post match comments from Moyes are still very confusing!
I cannot see just how many of these types of results the owners will endure, the players have sadly let Moyes, the club and fans down! All of them are unrecognizable from seasons past!
I won't speculate on past decisions in the very short Moyes era.
What's clear is the influx of New backroom staff, methods and tactics are clearly the root of problems for us!
We are playing without a defined style, our tactics look out dated and we are simply being hurried, out fought and teams just make our players look languid!
We are the champions, but right now the play is like we have a define right to success! Well we may have a strong squad but that doesn't matter a jot, the mindset of the players stink! I don't believe they don't try, but what is being exposed is a lack of hunger, determination and frankly 'boll**ks'. The players look soft! Moyes looks bewildered and our hubris is shot!
I honestly don't think Moyes was the 'man' but he is here now and the players need to get their fingers out for too long they have been mollycoddled!
We have to start earning victories out fighting teams and make sure if we do lose, the opposition doesn't just out run us!
The squad needs a total overall, we need players chomping at the bit not Andersons, youngs nani etc who look thankful to be here! Cantona, Keane, Beckham looked born to play for us. This lot look happy to get the paycheck

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I agree and wish he would just say they were poor and not acceptable to perform this way.

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I agree and wish he would just say they were poor and not acceptable to perform this way.

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07 Dec 2013 16:42:25
SYDNEY'

"United will finish atleast 25 points above liverpool ;) "

That says enough^

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07 Dec 2013 17:20:00
I think Syd meant behind

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07 Dec 2013 17:29:09
I didn't realise the season had finished

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I have no doubt MU will finish above Liverpool, but 25 points is not going to happen. Not the way things are at the moment.

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Let's just hope that the Glazers share your confidence eh Syd?

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Stop dreaming Sydney we ain't even going to make Europe in any competition this season. At this rate I thunk 7th or 8th regardless of any business in Jan. Were now at sere Liverpool were a few seasons ago after they finished second in the league. Its our turn to be lsuged at for a while I think.

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It's too bad we didn't listen to Sydney and sell Wayne Rooney.

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07 Dec 2013 16:14:48
Watching Southampton against City. The pace of SH midfielders is giving city all sorts of problems, who are also very good technically. Compared to our guys we look so much slower and also scared to hold on to the ball or make a run forward with the ball. I am not sure if anyone saw young Tom today but he trey got his a. s kicked by Cabaye and Tiote.


Makes you wonder f we would be better off going after guys like Lalana and Schneiderlin who are eligible for all competitions.

City lucky to be still drawing.

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Ouch, looking at todays results, we really could have used the 3 points. City dropping points and Chelsea losing.

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Just watched the southampton game as well, they were great to watch and were by far the better side, after watching us today its frightening how slow and boring our play is

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God loves a trier shahram. Still clinging in tge hope that arsenal Chelsea city liverpool all cock up? One or two might like they did today, but it will help if we actually start winning again!
Forget the league forget champions league spot.

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Southampton like many other teams look superior to us in midfield at the moment.
He has to buy a world class midfielder in Jan.
Then hopefully things will start to improve.
But forget about 4th place allready?

Surely not

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Nomid

I never thought we would win the league period before the season started and must have said it 50 times.

I never thought this was a great squad and believe we need 4 or 5 new proven players and not work in progress. Never liked how we played last year either and it was like chelsea winning the cl, it flatters to deceive and masked our issues.

The difference between us is that you have clearly thrown in the towel and I have not and hope we get a healthy RVP, Carrick and Rooney and go on a run of good performances. Without them for extended period of time we will not finish top 4.

If we don't make cl, maybe it finally jolts the club into cleaning out the rubbish and bringing in better players.

You seem to get more satisfaction in criticizing our manager than other managers.

What is Mourinho excuse for losing to stoke today. They have spend close to 200 million in 2 windows, no injuries and full squad to pick from and same applies to Pelegerini today who were lucky to come out with a draw.

We lost 2 games 1-0 and both games we should have scored first and the result would be very different. Is it moyes fault that welbeck can't keep his composure and head a sitter from 6 yards into an open goal?

How many goal scoring opportunities did newcastle have today? They set yup with 10 behind the ball and flooded the midfield with 5 to stop us from playing and we are lacking that bit os special play from someone to unlock teams when they park the bus. I get it you don't like him as our manager.

He was not my first choice either but he is our manager and I will rather get behind him than slag him at very opportunity.

Being objective is very difficult in tough times and that is what separates us.

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Forget 1 midfield recruitment we need 4! 2 world class and 2 more reminding them if they don't do the business they are out of the team!

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GCU

So, do you really think that Moyes just needs 4 Great players?

Which formation will he use, what kind of game, will he able to motivate or take the best from his players?

That a big question mark about him, the only excuse you always bring is the quality of the squad, but the most important thing is our gameplay is just outdated and he keeps doing it every single season, Everton and Newcastle played better than us at Old Trafford. Chances we created, c'amon we were playing at home the least we could to do was try to score.

We look aphatic and most of the teams are playing better than us even with a weak squad as well.

Moyes is not United quality, this is not about get behind him or not, He has to prove is worth and right now, mate, he's just the worst that happened to us this season.

I have nothing against him but I don't think he's good enough. I support my team, but if we loose any point in the next 3 games MOYES MUST GO. He's not bigger than the Club and we can't let him destroy us(just like the Glazers)

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Sharam it wasnt moyes fault that danny missed from 6 yards but it was his fault that he left him on the pitch for 80 minutes and he contributed nothing, he also paid over the odds for mopp head and now doesn't trust him with a starting place which doesn't surprise me after weds night when he also contributed nothing.i was away on business tues/wed/thurs in surrey and drove back 200 miles on weds just to go to the game and then drove back thurs morning as you can see I wasnt impressed :(

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Nick

Actually 5 players will do it. We look awful at the moment because we have zero goals or distribution from our midfielders and teams pack the wings and the strikers are getting very little supply.

Winter and summer window: 2 midfielders, a left back, ball playingCB and left winger. Ship out anderson, young, evra, with giggs and ferdiannd to retire.

Give Welbeck and Cleverly and Nani one more year and if they don't come through ship their a…s out too and replace them like for like.

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Shahram, you are dreaming if you think we will sign two central midfielders. The club have just spent £30m on Fellaini.

Perhaps one expensive midfielder and a young potential, but we will not sign two more big money central midfielders.

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Syd

I never said what we would sign 2 or even 1 central MF and it was my view on what we need if people want better quality football.

What the club does is anyones guess, but surely they will get off their a. s and make some meaningful signings.

Unfortunately even if hypothetically we actually signed that many quality players, we would need to sign more in the next 2 to 3 years as RVP, Rooney, and Carrick will need replacing as well unless we have guys coming through the ranks but that is a big ask when it comes to the names mentioned.

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I think we're stuck in a catch 22 situation. We failed to bring in the right players during the summer and this, along with other factors, has left us floundering in the league. So now we need new, top class, players to help us have any chance at a top four finish. The problem is that is much harder to sign players in January, and top class players will either (a) be unwilling to move in a World Cup year or (b) cost an inordinate amount of money. In addition we can't ignore the fact that players will be more hesitant to join David Moyes's United than they would be to join Fergie's.

I highly doubt that the owners will provide the volume of money required to land players who could really make a difference. But the owners also know that they have to bring some players in lest they be seen as not supporting Moyes in the market. With the combination of constraints we will face in January I can see us turning toward more of the same: squad players and young hopefuls. I think that we will soon see Woodward and Moyes's promise of world class talent as a hollow lie.

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07 Dec 2013 15:25:06
I think Fergie has been very shrewd in the timing of his retiring, but who can blame him? He obviously saw that this team needed overhauling big time but he's already built 4 or 5 teams at least, so perhaps he didn't have the energy to do it again.
The midfield is clearly the weakest area of the team, and Fergie's neglect of this area for the last few years is almost criminal. Moyes should have identified this, and it seems like he did with the attempted signing of Fabregas and the signing of Fellaini, so perhaps the blame shouldn't be placed on him, but Ed Woodward, because it was his inept and slow negotiating which appears to have put us into this situation.
But let's be positive (kind of). Moyes, I think should be given until next Christmas. That way he will have had three windows to make the team his. In January, 40million should be spent on the centre of midfield alone, with a player like hamsik, fabregas, gundogan, witsel, pogba coming in because god knows we need someone. If we strengthen the middle, the rest of the team is decent enough to get us to the end of the season, with us getting into the Champions League with a lot of luck. Then in the summer, the rubbish should be cleared out, we all know who. At least one winger, preferably two, a left back, a natural back-up right back, a quality centre half and further depth in central midfield. Hopefully then we will get to next Christmas and Moyes' deadline with the team having come through this transition period.
I know this is drastic and will cost millions, but its got to be done. These players aren't Moyes' so he isn't going to get the same level out of them that Fergie did.
Finally, let's get off Zaha's back, he had 20 minutes to make an impact in a team that wasn't stringing 4 passes together in his first chance of shining, he clearly wasn't going to set the world on fire.
Sorry for the length but seeing some of the things on twitter and here, I felt it needed to be said. For the record, Moyes wasn't my first choice, but let's get behind him, have some patience and realise the situation.

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Moyes seems to be getting the blame and I can understand why but imo the team simply isn't good enough. our lack of investment in top quality players is starting to show.
carrick and rvp were excellent last year take them 2 and rooney out and this isn't a great game.
im not sure how well we would of done with out rvp and carrick last year to be honest.
a lot of teams have improved this year and we have at best stood still in terms of players and gone backwards in terms of manager.
it would seem moyes wanted herrera kherida baines fabergas all of which would of improved us.
moyes wasnt my first choice I would of went for a manger with a winning record european experience and a personality to handle the job, JOSE.
moyes tactics have always been negative for me some kind of variation of 4-4-1-1 but he is not the only one to blame.
if we had of spent as much on players as we have on the debt over the last few years we would have a much better team.

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The problems we have is will there be a large transfer fund for january? and will top players want to come to us if we are still mid table and struggling to make champs league places.

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As much as I agree that Utd might need a few players remember that this is the team that won the league last year. Moyes should be doing a lot better.

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Jred, what you mean the EXACT same team that won the league by 11 points last season?

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I said at start of season we would struggle to make top4 but now i'm genuinely concerned about the future under moyes

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Jred

You echo my sentiments. It is time to get off statements like "We are United and . ". Our first 11 is average and without Carrick, RvP and Rooney it is actually poor. Moyes should take some blame but it will be unfair to completely put it on him. The look on his face said it all. He was not my first choice, I would have gone for Jose. But he is here and a final judgement should not be passed right away.

The problem is, I don't see Woody or Glazers spending. Will Moyes get his players or the financial backing required. I think at best we can hope for a Cup run. let's not kick Moyes when he is down, would not be really classy of us. That said, something has to give.

John - I think we can attract players if we can show them the money/project etc etc. The problem is, our current owners and good for nothing CEO will not do it.

Deeps.

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Irish, exactly. Of course MU need 2-3 top class players, but we cannot forget that the exact same players were far better last season under SAF than they are under Moyes. So they can play better.

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Jred

I agree he was not choice either but he is our manager and left with a poor team. I said exactly the same thing a few days ago, Carrick, RVP, Rafael and to some extend the back 4 were very solid defensive last year had us squeak wins. This year our only in form player is Rooney and that is never going to be enough.

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This rut has nothing to do with lack of quality, of course we need new players that has been the case for years now, but this side won the league last season and if SAF was still here we would be near the top now. There is enough quality here to be sitting at the top of the league now, but they are not happy and are severely lacking confidence.

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Sydney

The same players are not playing. RVP and Carrick carried us last year and rafael was a revelation at right back. This year it is patchwork every game, either through injuries or suspensions.

If you are saying SAF was a better manager than Moyes no one can argue with that given his track record and accomplishments in the game.

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Last season a lot of our competition were very poor that's why we won the league playing average boring football, I've just watched the southampton game and the difference is massive they play very similar to dortmund very fast at closing the other team down and very quick as a team on the break.whats interesting is they have used 13 academy players in the premier league this season so far

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Deeps
if other big teams are interested in anyone we are then they can offer cl football as an almost certainty and a bigger wage packet.the lure of playing for us isn't what it was, younger players still see us as a massive move world class players are more interested in the money side of things.

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All sides are dropping points this year, and we had numerous injuries last season too. I cannot believe that anyone can honestly claim that there is not a direct correlation between how poorly we are playing and David Moyes. We were struggling when both Carrick and RVP were fit, even with Rooney firing on all cylinders.

Yes, the owners have not invested enough in top quality players. Yes, Fergie made mistakes in the transfer market. And yes, the team is a year older and a few players are struggling. But there has been such a widespread and dramatic drop of form throughout the entire squad that there must be a problem with the new management team. The entire team has lost confidence and belief, this is a direct reflection on Moyes and what the players think of him.

I've asked numerous times for people to provide evidence of any positive improvements Moyes has made at the club. In five months the performances keep getting worse and the players look less an less likely to turn things around. Changing manager in mid season is not an option, but the club should be drawing up a list of candidates for the summer because they need to doing things properly if they want the club to challenge for trophies again.

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John

I agree, that lure of playing for us is probably no longer a deciding factor. To be frank, I am probably not even considering the "best" players out there when it comes to recruitment. I know it says a lot, but I guess we will have to rebuild from scratch. No divine right to be the bullies that we were. But then our discussion on this might just be an oxymoron. The leeches at the helm and their henchman will ensure we bid derogatory amounts for players. But then they keep saying, "Manchester United will compete for the best players". I am sure we won't be in such a soup if our transfer window was even AVERAGE.

Deeps.

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Shahram, we have been poor with or without RvP and Carrick this season. There is clearly more going on in the background and I think there are several players who are not happy with Moyes for one reason or another. RvP being one of them. This is a team that are in a rut, not just lacking quality. There is more than enough quality to be sitting near the top of the league now. The question is WHY aren't they performing?

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Sydney

We made a management change after 26 years and there is always going to be an adjustment to the new manager and his style, which might not go down well with some players.

The day we allow the players to choose what they like and what they don't like is the end of us.

How many tackles did our guys pull out of today. Some of them should hang their heads in shame and don't deserve the wages and the shirt.

If I am honest I think he is too decent to them from his interviews and they need a dressing down.

It is clear we are really struggling offensively and very disjointed and some drastic improvements on the offensive end.

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Deeps

Given what we are witnessing come january they have no more excuses. Unfortunately not many top players are available and not many will want to make the move to a new league in a world cup year.

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Deeps

Given what we are witnessing come january they have no more excuses. Unfortunately not many top players are available and not many will want to make the move to a new league in a world cup year.

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Syd
Like myself and others said last season any manager was going to struggle after fergy but yourself and others seem ti of only supported united while winning and couldn't imagine a united team not top of the table.
This isn't s great team and most fans could see that .last season was one of fergys best achievements .
Back. 4 isn't great
Midfield is awful.
Wingers are poor.
There are better teams in the league.

But then I'm talking to a man who only a few days ago argued united are title contenders and arsenal aren't based solely on the past not the present team

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07 Dec 2013 14:39:49
I have tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, due to the inevitable transition and all that. But this is not transition, this is losing regularly to teams who are inferior to ours. This is embarrassing. David Moyes is not and will never be a Manchester United manager, simply because his philosophy is not one that fits with the traditions of this club. Manchester United are about attacking football, beating teams simply by scoring more goals, and entertaining the crowd in the process. Manchester United under Moyes are dull, boring and uninspiring. Very un-Manchester United like. Moyes just looks so out of his depth I'm afraid. Turning us into more and more of a laughing stock by the game. Something clearly needs to change, before it's too late.

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Totally agree.

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07 Dec 2013 13:46:48
The players just aren't responding to Moyes, why he insist on playing Nani on left and Adnan on right, I will never know . Put Zaha on right and Adnan on left and hopefully we can get a goal. It's almost like our home games are harder than the away games, the atmosphere is too edgy.

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07 Dec 2013 12:41:26
Well here we go - another match we should win.

The banter discussion below is interesting. There are different types of players. As an example I would cite my daughter who made it to a top level team as a 16 year old. She could provide a solid contribution and was never out of place, but was also never someone who was going to turn a game. If she stepped down a level or two it was the same. Her abilities were dependent on the players around her. A team player. SAF was brilliant at finding them and meshing them in around truly talented players who, when they step down a level, score 6 goals. We now have too many squad players - and not enough stars. The Welbecks, Cleverleys, Youngs, Andersons etc of this world may have good moments but they are not going to inspire a team. What is more concerning is that Moyes does not look like the type of manager who can inspire one either.

And here's the kicker. If they fire Moyes what on earth will they do? Bring back Sir Alex to try and cope with managing on top of an infrastructure that's been decimated by his successor - which may be the real reason Moyes chose to sack the whole of the back room staff. Another sign of insecurity if you ask me.

I hope I'm wrong and we pick up from here and become the only United the younger supporters have known, but to me this looks like a problem way to big for an ordinary manager with limited tactical acumen to fix.

Until after the match then, fellow fans.

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07 Dec 2013 11:58:00
This might be one of if not the most important game of the season. This must ve the turning point of the season, if don't get the 3pts this will tell exactly where we going to be under Moyes.

No Rooney, RVP or Carrick, yes. So this is the chance to show the so called depth every body says we have. No excuses today, onle the 3 prs matter or Moyes goes for me.

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07 Dec 2013 11:13:58
So, a few papers and websites are reporting that RVP has handed in a transfer request. Lawrenson being the man who has apparently spilled the beans after being told by a Carrington reporter.

What you saying boys, any truth? Or just a well-timed rumour to try and further rock us just before a crucial game?

The latter is likely but the former isn't impossible, IMO. RVP hasn't looked happy all season and I could definitely see how his morale might have dropped after SAF left just 1 season into Robin's OT career.

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Well he is starting today with Zaha on the bench maybe today is the day things change and we put the rumours and the criticism to bed and push on to were this team should be and that's fighting for everything

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Ive told u a few times that van gaal has said to me that rvp is unhappy. Believe what u want.

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I'm sorry, but if it's a choice of changing Moyes or selling RvP and others who are unhappy with Moyes, it's a simple decision for me. If we start selling our best players to protect a manager with no define right to being our manager, then we will fall.

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Nomid

It is quite obvious SAF was getting a lot out of very little and maybe this idea that he was worth 10 to 20 points a season is not farfetched.

3 highly experienced pl Managers also told me that this is one of the poorest united teams they can remember. Given our performances I think you maybe right about RVP.

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Shahram, but that's irrelevant. The players on the pitch still performed. Therefore the players are capable of playing at that level under Moyes.

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Sydney

RVP has had two spells of injuries this year and carrick is out for some time now. The rest are average and that is where we can agree to disagree.

I realize Rooney is in good form but for me RVP and carrick are key to our team and until both are healthy and fit we are in for a very rough ride.

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I see your point Shaz, but we have been poor when RvP and Carrick have played. I think that maybe them playing whilst injured mind. I still think these injuries are not helped by Moyes' training regimes. I also think that's why RvP isn't happy.

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SYD

RVP has never been right this year and has been carrying injuries most of the year.

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SYD

RVP has never been right this year and has been carrying injuries most of the year.

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Yes, ever since Moyes took over. No injuries in two full seasons at Arsenal and MU, then Moyes implements his new methods, RvP tells friends that he doesn't like the dinosaur training methods, the Holland coach criticises Moyes' methods and WHAM BAM he is injured. Groin problems.

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07 Dec 2013 09:24:26
Not related to United. what does everyone think of the world cup draw and England's chances of getting through the group stages?

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Not great, I see Urugauy and Italy going through.

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Rooney to have an early finish this summer is good England 33/1 to lose all 3 games that's where my money would go

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Virtually none existent.

While we do have equal if not better quality compared to Italy and Uruguay, we have a team of individuals who perform as such.

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07 Dec 2013 11:26:24
I think we wilk make it out of the group along side Uruguay who I think will top the group. Uruguay are my tip to win the whole thing.

I think too much is being made of the tough conditions in the first game, at the end of the day Italy won't be used to those condiditions and will have to deal with it too. Also Italy are notiorusly bad starters. I think we'll nick a win against them with a win against Costa Rica and we'll lose to Uruguay to finish second in the group to Uruguay who'll beat us an Italy but draw with Costa Rica. Italy will beat Costa Rica but lose to us and Uruguay.

The final goupe table will he Uruguay top with 7 points, us second with 6 points, Italy third with 3 points and Costa Rica propping up the group with 1 point.

How's that for a prediction. As for how much further we go in the tourdament will depend on who we get in the knock out stages, we'll go out to the first South American or African team we meet in the knock out stages. But we could cause a suprise against a highly rated European team.

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Not I agree with you Shappy.
Italy have experienced the conditions while playing well in the Confederations Cup.

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Lol.
Sorry for the Yoda talk.
I do not agree with you shappy.

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07 Dec 2013 02:51:55
Before people shoot me down about his age, I personally feel Lazios Hernanes would be a great buy for our midfield. Top play with experience, wouldn't be cup tied and could be a great replacement for carrick without bollocking the likes of Powell when there ready to progress

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Hernanes has taken the word inconsistent to a whole new level.

You see when Nani has a good game, he terrorises defenders puts in a couple of decent crosses and scores a screamer? Well Hernanes terrorises defenders, scores a screamer, creates chance after chance and absolutely bosses the game. He can produce 10 out of 10 performances.

But do you also see when Nani has a bad game? He mirubbishs crosses, loses possession, fires shots over and barely makes a pass? Well Hernanes fails to gain possession once, mirubbishs most of his passes, creates chances for the opposing teams and all in all, better to play with 10 men. You remember when Walters scored 2 own goals and missed a penalty? Well that's the type of games Hernanes has. Absolute stinkers.

We need a reliable midfielder who will constantly put in good performances. He doesn't have to win games on his own but he has to play well. Like Carrick for example

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07 Dec 2013 01:21:23
On my post before kids like Gauld who I see every week, sign him and play him. Messi was 18 when he proper made his name

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07 Dec 2013 00:51:45
This is not united related bit to show what a youngster can do. Was watching 'magic of messi' and it blew me away, I'm a Ronaldo and maradona fan but this shocked me. After watching I thought At what age does someone need to be to play for United. I think we regard youngsters too inept when you look at our history, the class of 92 is a perfect opinion. If your old enough you play, look at Southampton. I feel we don't bring players on enough, in our frame of mind hazard, oscar, Ramsey, Bartley would be too young and inexperienced but I don't think we give them a chance. Sorry too many beers but it's how I think

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Age matters when you're not Messi.

Messi is the most gifted footballers we've seen in the last 20 years, if not ever. Ronaldo himself doesn't possess half the talent that Messi has but through sheer determination and hard work reached a similar level.

Rooney is the only player who might have reached that level since he was just as talented ( albeit in different, less obvious areas ) but failed to do so

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