Manchester United Banter Archive December 08 2013

08 Dec 2013 23:16:11
A lot of people must be thinking that our title hopes are over for this season. I am not an optimistic and so I also think that the title is over and we should aim to get into the top 4 at least. Next season, David Moyes needs to revive the team and I think the best solution is to get rid off Young, Nani, Cleverly and Welbeck. Also the youth should be given a chance, a midfield with Januzaj and Zaha on the wings, Powell and Carrick in the centre and Rooney up front with Kagawa playing behind. Vidic and Evans at the back with Rafael and Fabio and DDG in goal.

So you think that next season we should have zero new signings that will get in the first team but should sell 4 players, I imagine including the loss of rio and giggs. So 6 players gone, not sure where rvp is and we sign no first team players?

I know this is your opinion but I totally disagree, we need big signings.

Saw somewhere supposedly Cleverley is available if anyone wants him

08 Dec 2013 23:07:58
Unfortunately the debate about the future squad passed me by today, had a long day! Was thinking though if a 4-3-3 could work but it would probably mean selling Kagawa. If we could get Reus and Gundogan while offering Kagawa back to Dortmund would solve many issues. That would mean that we could have a front 3 or Reus, Rooney and RVP. On paper looks great, could it work in practise?

Secondly the midfield. If it was me I'd like to see Gundogan, Carrick/Fellaini plus one other. Someone forward bursting like Barkley - he would be a first class signing. If we were to go for Barkley though we would have to leave Baines - this may not be a bad move because if we could get Shaw or Alex Sandro then I don't think we would be too upset.

The big question is, could a 4-3-3 work with a solid midfield and a fluid front 3. No out and out wingers but we would have attacking fullbacks and players who like to drift wide.

09 Dec 2013 03:48:39
Hehe you seems to be a school kid.
1. Why would Reus and Gundogan join a club lower than Dortmund. I mean Dortmund are playing CL football while MU will finish below top 4 this season.

2. Chelsea is still there for Shaw and Barkley.

Klopp

Klopp, because even in their current predicament, we're still one of the most prestigious clubs in Europe.

We're also one of the richest and the most followed worldwide. A transfer to united puts a player in the limelight, increases his fame by quite a significant bit and offers a whole new commercial side of the game.

With our finances, academy and profile, we are sure to improve and said players would be one of the main reasons for that, making them crowd favourites and improving their CVs

Klopp,

We WILL finish below top 4 this season WILL we?

It is December, be careful about speaking too soon my friend, it pretty much always comes back to bite opposition fans on the arse.

08 Dec 2013 22:30:11
ive said it once and ill say it again if you want this to stop you have got to hurt the club in the pocket I supported united as a young lad in the seventies and they played quicker and moore exciting football than now don't care if we are mid table for two or three seasons woodwards comments proved that us as fans are just a dollar sign and they could not give a monkeys what the fans think if we don't win anything the moneys still coming in it realy is time to take a stand and get our beloved club back like byern have

Ps and I don't just mean the green and gold scarves

08 Dec 2013 21:02:17
All blame moyes or it's fergies fault when the real question is how did we get a team like this? Dominated for years, ground breaking sponsorship deals, millions of fans all over the world and now we have a team of over the hill players and players that just ain't good enuf to wear the red of our beloved club. We ain't strengthened our mid-field for years, we've let our defence become aged and slow and the players brought in as the future just ain't up to the job. We stand by while other clubs go out and buy quality, while we get nowt or even worse complete rubbish. We had to drag scholes out of retirement to plug a gap for gods sake! Vidic, rio, evra, giggs, to old and lost pace. Smalling, jones, cleverly squad players at best. Anderson, fallani, young, nani, welbeck, just not utd class. It should never b like this. We should of been bringing in a couple of quality players every year, like saf said never standing still, always one eye on the future. I believe it's so much more than moyes and he just the fall guy. Even though I never backed his appointment I still reckon he getting tucked up. Look at the shambles during the summer for proof where the problem lies! Get behind the boss and team because they going to need it, remember it's always easier to cheer a winner but it's the bad times tha proves who the real fans are

There is no doubt that Moyes inherited a squad that was in desperate need of change and he can't be blamed for that failure. He must, however, bear responsibility for spending £27m on Fellaini, who is not good enough.
Of more concern is his apparent failure to motivate the team. That is the one thing a manager must do and DM doesn't seem up to it. The lack of confidence, belief and fight is really worrying. We have never, believed that we could not win, until this season. Where it will all end is worrying. Rebuilding in January is rarely possible but perhaps Moyes will be panicked into more short term buys. We need to use the talent we've got, give youngsters like Powell and Keane a real chance, sell those who've had their chance and grit our teeth until next Summer.

08 Dec 2013 19:25:43
a question for all I said earlier moyes not my choice but that's my opinion my question is are the board going to allow moyes to spend however many millions it takes to get us back at least playing decent football bare in mind his one signing makes djembe djembe spelling look a decent player and also with the fiasco what's going on now do you see any of the top stars wanting to join us because most now don't care about sentiment or club history they are out for money which I don't blame them especialy when you have woodward penny pinching

08 Dec 2013 18:04:23
People said David Moyes did a great job for 11 years with a mediocre Everton side, maybe he did a mediocre job with a great Everton side, like he is doing at United now. Everton are simply outstanding.
Undefeated at home in 2013.
Roberto Martinez is a good manager.

Everton have improved their squad this summer. They lost Fellaini but added Mccarthy, Barry, Lukaku and Delofeu.

He has improved their playing style but the upgrade in results ( minor so far ) is more down to the added quality than anything else.

Yes I thought they were outstanding today and Martinez has them playing great football.Did SAF pick the right manager?, I think not!.

I agree with you. I think for a club of Everton's stature, they should have won one or two trophies.
No offence to any other clubs, but Wigan and Birmingham managed to win trophies with their limited means. But Moyes never managed it in 11 years at Everton.

Lukaku, Barry & Delofeu aren't even Everton players. That being said they are a good unit and a difficult side to play against, they deserved a win today and against us. If we are not buying all the players we need, then why aren't we getting one or two players on loan? There are some decent players in the Barcelona and RM squads that they simply do not need.

I have said since may we should have got Roberto Martinez. Point proven to all those doubters. Check my posts.

Martinez is doing a fantastic job at Everton but let's not forget he was with Wigan the whole season before and couldn't get them out of the relegation battle. Some managers look great when everything falls into place, which can either be luck or good organisation on behalf of the board but the really good managers are the ones who can turn bad into good. Do you honestly think Martinez would be doing a better job than Moyes at United now? Baring in mind he was at a very small club in Wigan (no disrespect) before hand.

Martenez would have been a better manager if after relegating wigan he would of been man enough to bring wigan back up like rednap is trying to do with qpr

08 Dec 2013 17:53:22
I see we've been linked to Alex Song, now i've seen someone suggest he would be ideal to achor the midfield this is something I have to disagree with this.

He played as a DM for Arsenal but he would frequently leave the back door open as he would venture up field, his roaming left Arsenal in all sorts of problems and lead them to look at other players such as M'Vila and Capoue to hold there midfield together. In the end Arteta proved more discaplined and has taken that role.

Now that doesn't mean I don't think Song would be a great signing for us, I think he could be a fantastic signing for us. But due to his other qualities, he covers a lot of ground, is strong in the tackle and reads the game very well allowing him to make interceptions, he has great technical ability and has a kean eye for a pass( he assisted something like 12 goals in his last season at Arsenal) and his link up play with RvP was sensational in his final season.

I think he would be an excellent box to box midfielder we need to drive the team forward, if we were to play him alongside Fellaini for the rest of the season we would have a solid base with movement and passing ability. It might lack alittle in creativity but it would be a great patch until the summer when the right players should be available. While also offering us some great options beyond the summer.

Shappy, for a team with notorious lack of pace in midfield, buying one of the slowest midfielders out there is hardly what we need.

Add to that the unability to maintain his position and laziness tracking back at times means we're buying a shorter fellaini with a better passing range.

Agree with your analysis but why stop at song? if Herrera is available at £30 mill then we should fork up the cash for him as well. this would still leave room to bring in gundogan or koke in the summer.

there's plenty of midfield chaff to get rid of and a serious quality deficit to make up

Carrick fellaini do we really need song.
Decent player but not the answer imo

Jred, well Carrick is 32 and I have no problem with him leaving if a decent replacement comes in. I like him as a player but I won't be sentimental about it.

Fellaini has done nothing so far to convince anyone he's worthy of a place at OT. Its early days and I'm happy for him to get a chance but I don't have high expectations.

Song is 26 and is a better player with bags of experience.

{Ed004's Note - I would have Carrick over Song. It's no surprise our worst run of forms comes when Carrick is injured}

Andrew b
So after Carrick has just signed a 2 year extension and we have just paid 27 mill for fellaini you think we are going to get rid of one of them?

We have Carrick and fellaini do we need song?

Ed004, I'm not suggesting Song is a replacement for Carrick, but if we can acquire another player who is at least as good at what carrick does, I would have no problem with letting carrick go.

Although Carrick has carried our midfield for a few seasons now I'm actually a little disappointed because I don't think he has fulfilled his potential.

In the odd game he has played like Roy keane and Paul Scholes all in one. Unfortunately, it was just the odd game and I think he's just to nice a character to dominate games on a consistant basis. I don't know what happened to him on the few occasions when he looked the business, maybe he had a row with the missus on the morning of the game or something.

Don't get me wrong, he's been a really good player for us, but I believe he could have been a great one if he had more attitude.

For those wanting more pace in the midfield, don't forget Usain Bolt is always available.

{Ed004's Note - There are far more players we should be looking to move on before Carrick. I agree we should be bringing in players to ease him out of the side and replace him}

Although I was just joking about Usain Bolt, does anyone know whether he has any footballing ability at all?

wasn't there an NBA star who recently persuaded one of the Milan clubs to give him a trial?

If moyes wants his own team why on earth is he giving the old guard new contracts seems to me like he real
y dose not now what he is doing fergie would of been ruthless

Ed004 is totally right about Carrick. In that role experience is essential. Players become more dominant in that role with age. Look at Scholes, Pirlo, Xavi, Xabi Alonso. Carrick is one of the last players we need to worry about at the moment.

08 Dec 2013 16:00:40
Why do you think SAF asked people to get behind the Manager. Do you just maybe think he knew the team needed quite a bit of retooling and he got that last bit of magic out of them? According to Harry Redknap he knew and I believe him. Both been around for yonkers and not blind.

Why do I think that the man who single handedly picked Moyes as his successor asked supporters to be patient with him? Hmmmm that's a tough one

Are you hired by Moyes? Just stop man. We get it, mate. Moyes is a great manager and we'll do just fine under him and we need to be patient.

SAF is to blame alongside Wood and the Glazers, yes we got you.

So SAF picked a manager to see us fail or did not rate and just a twisted individual to see UTD fail. You are being a child now and waste of any meaningful banter.

You stick to moyes should be sacked and I will stick to let's back him as our manager and hope the owners back him with funds to buy reinforcements.

No but SAF has a massive vested interested in Moyes being a success. He went to great lengths to put a halt to the club's selection process and pick the new manager himself. It was an unparalleled, unprecedented and unprofessional thing to do. If Moyes fails, then it will be seen as Fergie's failure more than anyone else. He believes in Moyes, but he also knows how poorly it reflects on him and his actions if Moyes fails.

Nick

You got me, I am his agent :) Sorry for not joining in a public hanging, but you guys can keep up the banter and should start going to OT with Moyes out banners :)

I don't think things would look as bad if we had had a fully fit Carrick and rvp.

GCU

What has Moyes done in his managerial career to give you confidence that he can manage a club of our size and actually win trophies?

Redman

Because very smart and accomplished people at the club who have our best interest in mind picked him who know a thing or two about football.

IMO he did it an excellent job at Everton given what he had in terms of funds and build teams from very little. This idea of what has he won, list the teams that have won the PL or CL place and list how much they have spent.

You have been vocal from the time he was appointed against the manager and given how we are currently going can't stop shouting from the rooftop. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and believe our injuries have cost us 6 to 7 points.

I have not seen enough to come across to your camp mate, that's all.

Dhahran, there is nothing wrong with view and anyone deserves a chance. But since the day he was appointed, Moyes has not done anything positive at all. He has been inept in the extreme.
If there were any signs of improvement or tactical solutions, then we would all see the point in backing him. But he is simply not delivering at all.
The players are complaining, which is worrying. Lack of confidence is sited, and that should never be the case in a united team.
He has made a big step and has been found completely wanting. Some will argue that Martinez has made a big jump and has proved to be equal to the task.
I think it is a case of Moyes not fitting the managerial role at united. This job is massive and comes with its own brand of responsibility. It calls for an experienced man who has achieved and won at the highest level. But Moyes simply has not done anything to warrant this role. That is why he'll always struggle.
We cannot afford to have someone in charge who is learning how to win etc, we need a man to bring his winning expertise, experience, knowledge, skill to our club.
It is a shame on this club that they have made this ridiculous appointment. If we keep him, then he could set us back very badly. Better to break up now and let the club search for a proper manager who deserves this job.

"Some will argue that Martinez has made a big jump and has proved to be equal to the task. "

And some would argue that he was left a very good team that was not that far off and made four very good signings.

I really don't want to do this tit for tat thing, you can always look at things differently to suit your argument. He did get his team relegated after all.

15 games is nowhere near enough and I will agree with you once we see where we are at the end of the season.

Watching Frank Stapleton talking about us and says the team needs retooling and players are also not performing and we are an old team in need of some creative midfielders as the wingers are not producing much.

Does also say the manager needs to get more out of them and I will not argue with that.

Question for you, if we make the quarters finals in Europe and finish top 4, will you back him.

If he gets no major funds from the owners he is dead man walking anyway.

Sharan(m)

With Moyes we won't go the top 4. If we make it, I'll take a bow and eat my words. You're just hoping. The same way we think he's not up to the task you think otherwise. Let's hope you're right. But I'll make sure to remind u by the end of the season that SAF was the greatest but made the worst mistake ever.

If we make top 4, I will not remind you or any of the naysayers and more interested how we build from there to win the title next season.

GCU

I am jaundiced by experience of the late sixties and early seventies where we appointed Wilf McGuiness in not too dissimilar circumstances albeit that Moyes has more previous managerial experience. The pain of that period lived with me and no doubt many of us for a long period but to waltz into it again beggars belief. My comment has always been that Moyes was the risk we didn't need to take and wanted him to succeed but it was only yesterday that I changed my position on him.
The crunch for me came not just with the results which I felt may happen as pressure built but with the Rio comments, obvious RVP unhappiness and looking at the players going through the motions yesterday plus a lack of cohesion. Add to that tactically we are a mess.

I comment on management techniques based on experience and I know that Moyes CV did not have the requisite experience, in fact it didn't match what Gill described as the attributes needed for the job. It made it a huge leap for him and it was important, as it is with any new managerial job with an existing team you go into, that the existing team believe you have what it takes. They often test you out to see what you have got and you cannot afford to lose their confidence. I would add there are some roles that are not just a manager position but need a leader and this is one of them. Moyes has been a manager but hasn't displayed leadership. So yesterday when I felt you could see the team attitude I felt it was time to make the change before more damage is done.

I actually feel for Moyes, he tried to be his own man and bring his own back room in but it appears to have backfired. Rio's comments are a real eye opener and if as I believe may have happened, that he has lost the dressing room it is by no means certain he can get it back.

On loyalty we stayed loyal to previous managers like Dave Sexton and it still ended badly, loyalty is a great trait but it doesn't give the manager the skills if he hasn't got them.

REDMAN

We are in dire need of investment for better players and going through a change of management. I have supported United for 35 years now and well aware of our history.

The new manager needs time and backing of the owners to buy new players and really shake up this squad by getting rid of some players.

You are absolutely correct in saying this is not his team and he does not have the history of the previous manager with the players. I can not phantom us sacking a new manger after 15 games and believe in 2 things.

1. He will either turn out to be a mistake as you say
or
2. A fantastic Manager who in his own way will win many trophies for our great club.

I have not seen enough to have a view either way.

The stuff about moyes negative style is a fashionable term. Someone please humor me what that means. We have been boring for a few years and did not happen over night. Average players generally translate into boring football.

Finally, Rio has said many of stupid stuff over the years and I would not base my opinion of the new manager on what Rio says.

GCU

Johnny Evans has said confidence is a problem, how can our new manager have players saying the confidence isn't there. Giving leadership is what was needed and Moyes hasn't done that. The managers role includes instilling confidence. You mention 15 games so how can the new manager have allowed the Champions of England to lose that much confidence in 15 games?

I go back to the simple fact that Moyes does not have anything in his history to demonstrate he can manage at this level, to win competitions, plus he had virtually no European experience. Given what Gill said how on earth did they match Moyes attributes to the job? Manchester United, a hundreds of million pound turnover business making a major decision that just didn't have the basis of matching experience of the candidate to the role. Yet you want us to give him even more time to show he can do it. What is the basis for giving him more time? What that is, is hoping, fingers crossed he can do something he has never shown he could do before. That is an incredibly high risk strategy and the longer it goes on the greater the risk of damage.
If we had appointed a top manager then we would know they knew how to get us winning again but with Moyes it's a guess.
I believe the majority of the fans had or have major doubts, this is growing fast and it will be difficult to stop now unless he wins a big competition this season and qualifies in the top four. What basis do we trust that he can do that?

Well said red man

Redman

Confidence comes with winning and performance on the pitch. The players are performing poorly and many having shockers. The standard of play in the league is much higher and we don't have the traditional gap in quality that we have been used to and enjoyed.

I have a question for you as it seems it is fashionable to praise everyone else's manager but ours.

1.What has Laurent Blanc won as a manager and look at him now.

2.What did Guardiola win before he got the job at Barcelona. He must be great because he got to coach the greatest assembly of players ever in a single team.

3.What did Klop win before he got the Job at Dortmund and how many seasons did he need to put his own mark on the team.

4. What did ABV win before he got the job at Chelsea or Spurs( every porto manager wins that league so not really worth mentioning),

5. What did Brendan Rodgers win before he got the Job at Liverpool.

6. What has Pelegrini win before he got the Job at City

7. Wenger at a club the size of Arsenal has not won a thing for 8 or 9 years, based on your argument he should be sacked and not worthy of the job.

I can keep going and as I said, it is a fashionable terms "Won Nothing" that when the chips are down you guys are using.

Just face the fact we have neglected to spend for years and what we have spent on has not turned out as hoped. eventually it catches up with you and the the old guard is not as reliable anymore and can't ride them to victory.

For all I know next week, it will Gus Poyet who we should hire because his team gets a couple of good results.

All this banter about Moyes out is a lot of wasted energy and quite ridiculous. People at the club have been through a lot worse than a run of 4 to 6 poor games and whether you like it or not not just part of our DNA to have Knee jerk reactions and that is what makes us different from the rest.

GCU

Moyes didn't have anywhere near the experience on his CV for the United job. How many of the others you mention got a six year contract without meriting it? How many of them were transitory coaches rather than managers with a long term contract? We will have to disagree

08 Dec 2013 14:08:17
How about going in with a £100m January bid for Subotic, Gundogan, Reus & Lewandowski ;)

Think subotic has got a nasty injury and he's out for the season? But I'd seriously bid £70 million for gundogan, Reus and Lewandowski. Throw in the compensation for Klopp too or is that a bit cheeky lol

Sydney

That would be something LOL and shut everyone up and no excuses for moyes. Hummels would also do instead of subtonic. BTW Dortmund is also struggling.

Watching Eveton against Arsenal. So far Everton the better team and dominating possession and chances.

Why don we add a few millions more and jus buy Dortmund :P

Does anyone know what is happening with Lewandowski?Would love to see him join and we offload hernandez or Welbeck.

In our glory days of with cole and yorke, sheringham and Solskjaer were not that far behind and gave you a sense of not much of a drop off. Unfortunately Hernandez and Welbeck are a major step down from our main strikers.

U read my mind, throw in klopp and We'll be on the right track!

08 Dec 2013 14:52:44
So it turns out that everything that Rainfish and Kloot said has come true and those people who criticised him for his thoughts about the Glazers and the control they held over Fergie and the purse strings must now feel pretty silly. Or are there any people stupid enough not to believe that the appointment of Moyes is anything but the beliefs of someone with an ego the size of a house and owners who want someone who won't spend a lot of money.

Regardless of whether the manager spends a lot of money or not that isn't the point. They would have wanted someone who is successful in the long run and brings stability. After all the glazers love their money so much do you really think they would want the value of the club to decrease by losing consistent success? Don't be so naive.

Oswald

If they wanted a manager who vastly improved our chances of success it is hard to comprehend how Moyes would have been in the top five let alone the first and only choice, unless he had SAFs sole endorsement. I still find that difficult to understand because Moyes doesn't have the anywhere near the necessary experience to manage our club

08 Dec 2013 14:37:16
Just for a change.who do you think will win the World Cup?

Pick one European a Non European team.

My choices are Germany and Brazil.

{Ed007's Note - Argentina or Germany for me.}

Spain or Brazil.

I've love to see a dark horse like Belgium go all the way but pragmatically I can't see past Germany or Brazil.

Spain or Argentina for me

08 Dec 2013 12:32:55
Just wanted to gauge opinion on here, do we think that Rooney will definitely stay now? I think he will but just wondering if anyone has any differing views?!

I think he might well stay and pay back what you have given him, well I think he should and probably will.
Moyes is finding out who is not only good enough but also who is really committed to the UTD cause this season.
Next season and beyond you will reap the benefits of being without players who don't get a tick in both boxes and ready to get revenge on all who have a go now while they can.

I think it depends on who the club sign in the next two transfer windows. If the club steps up in the transfer windows and show some ambition then I think he'll stay.

If we continue to faff about then I won't blame him for leaving for a more ambitious club.

08 Dec 2013 11:10:59
January window:
Ins needed:
LB:Leighton Baines- At 29 in peak of career, could get at least 3 years out of him. Elegible for Champions League and an upgrade on Evra. 15m
CDM: Alex Song- At 10m he is a bargain and would give some much needed protection to our defence. He would be disciplined and sit. Better than Fellaini. 10m
CAM: Ander Herrera- Only player out there with a bit of top creativity and Elegible for Champions League. 27m
Let's all stick together we were on a good run before this awful week.
In Moyes we trust.

I think we need a midfield 3 and for Song to sit at the base of it like Tiote did yesterday for Toon would be the best way. That would get us through to the summer and would help us stop leaking these goals that are keeping us out of the top 4. I would go for Baines & Song - I don't think many others would be available.

The problem remains though, how do we play a 3 in midfield and accommodate both RVP and Rooney?
Could a 4-1-3-2 do the trick? Even then there's no width. I really don't know which formation would be best. Any thoughts guys?

5 3 2
With Baines and Fabio providing the width

I agree with fresh we need to move to 3 in midfield one of the reason we lost yesterday was because we got out numbered you can play 2 cm if you have quality cm but we don't atm so I would go to 4 3 2 1 and have our full backs for width

DDG

Rafael Smalling Vidic Evra

Fallani Carrick Cleverley

Rooney Kagawe

RVP

I would prefer a 3-5-2 to give us some width.

The way Evra and rafael defend at the moment, where they take turns in going on a walkabout, we might as well go with 3 at the back :)

Play Evans, Vidic, Smalling as a back 3.
Play with Janusaj, Cleverly, Jones, Kagawa and Valencia as midfield 5.
Rooney, RVP on top. We could eve drop Vidic for Jones as a back 3 and bring in the Fellaini in midfield.

OP, that would be a good transfer window. The thing about Song is that he can also pick a pass and he combined really well with RVP at Arsenal.

There isn't going to be any Ins lads. but I guess we can always dream

08 Dec 2013 10:16:49
Danny

"I'm old enough to remember what being a United supporter was like before SAF arrived, and that's where I can see us headed with Moyes and the Glazers. But I don't think it's a generational thing at all, I think those who refuse the place any responsibility on Moyes shoulders or accept that he is out of his depth must have their heads up a darkened crevice."


The reason I asked and no disrespect was meant was to get a better feel of your thought process. I look at stuff sometimes from a business related experience and having restructured organizations in the past before I set up on my own, I can scan see many similarities. They were good organizations and People did not understand why we were doing it because things seemed fine questioned why all the change?

It really depends if you believe we were in good shape prior to Moyes or a team that had cracks in many places and patchwork. I am of the view that we were in the second category and have been quite honest about those views.

1. Do you think we have bought well in the last 5 to 6 years?
2. Have you seen anything noteworthy from our youth system?
3. Do you think our scouting network has been good?
4. Do you believe we have planned well for key players coming to the end of their career who were not just any player but world class with replacements being bled into the team.

My views on the all the above is a no, so Moyes changing the scouting network, Backroom staff is not a bad thing because they are the same guys who have us in this pickle.

Our style of play as everyone likes to criticize did not show up overnight since he took over and has been there for 3 to 4 years. The difference is we are one year older and injuries and form has hit us where it hurts most.

Take Liverpool as an example, I remember last year people making fun of Brendan Rogers and loving every bad result and questioned the changes he was making. He was given time to bring his own players in and It took them a while and you could see things coming together towards the end of last season and definitely this year. He has made some mistakes on individual purchases but overall he has made big strides. I do realize some the fans might hate reading this but you have to give credit where it is due.

I am as disappointed as anyone with how things are going but I try to show exert some degree of control and believe me it is much easier to join the crowd and ask for heads :).

I never rated us as a great team last year and sort of expected tough times ahead and that is where some people will disagree with me as they genuinely believe the team is great and keep bringing up the 11 point gap.

Criticizing Moyes and Fellaini is an easy out for people to vent their frustration. Fellaini was not my first choice either but he is not as poor as people say and give him some time to settle down. His prolonged transfer saga and injuries has not helped in terms of him settling in.

Moyes will ultimately be held responsible and if he does not get it right will go, but we are a long way away from reaching that decision or conclusion.

I think if you looked at the players yesterday there is an underlying major issue bubbling away. Looking at them I don't think they believe in what Moyes is preaching and if he has lost the dressing room how long do we stay with him?

08 Dec 2013 11:47:33
Sorry for the long post and I hope this does not come over as a Moyes bash. I just want to look at what has happened before and since his appointment.
The end of 2012-2013 season and Everton finish 6th under David Moyes. Moyes has made Everton a hard team to play against, a team that will fight to the end and always have an on field physical presence, imo a pragmatic style but the players believe in him.
1st July Moyes is officially the new Manchester United manager. He is the manager of the champions of England who won the league at a cantor. In winning the premiership Utd throughout the season (and other seasons) demonstrated great resilience in never giving a game up and fighting to the very end. A pragmatic attitude, SAF demanded from his players.
IMO Utd had a poor pre-season tour in comparison to the previous year but this is no surprise as the new manager had to assess his squad. In addition to this, Utd quite publically attempt to sign several high profile players. Utd sign Marouane Fellaini for £27.5m, imo a player who can be used as a target man in a long ball game or as an extra stopper in midfield if seeing out a game whilst defending a lead. A pragmatic player.
Now fast forward to today, Everton are 5th (with a game in-hand) under their new manager, Martinez, who has added a degree of flair to the hardworking Everton style. The Everton fans (the ones I know) are happy with their new man.
Utd are ninth and the gap between us and the business end of the league is becoming alarmingly wide imo. We look as though there is no game plan, we seem to have lost the confidence to adapt/change shape in order to get into and on top of a game.
Imo buying 3-4 players will not suddenly turn things around, indeed it could well have a negative impact. Moyes does need to change things though, he needs to get the players up for every game, we need to fight for every ball and then move the ball quicker, pull the other team around, make them feel like they're chasing shadows. When you're in a hole it becomes harder to climb out the deeper you go, we need more effort more grit. Until the work ethic returns by getting all players onside, then this slide will continue. We as fans need to back David Moyes, the boss, he needs to believe the fans are behind him.
Yes initially one or two players are required, yes over a period of time ( 1-2 years) further players to add and yes Moyes needs to improve his game. Wholesale changes, no.
Personally I think Moyes dropped a clanger in signing Fellaini but he was still finding out what level Utd operate at, hopefully he has learned a lot since and only time will tell, I cannot see it but I'm only a fan.

Someone talking the truth at last .these problems we are having started years ago .not disputing how good fergie was but he never addressed the midfield problem .we need to open our eyes we won a bad league last year

The problem with your argument is that if the old regime was the problem the Moyes is a continuation of that regime. Take your business analogy further. If a business is restructuring because of the deep rooted infrastructural problems and managerial failings, which you allude to, do they give the manager they are replacing carte blanche to pick their successor? Of course they don't.

We have not bought well in the last 5 years.
And we have not planned well for replacing older players.

But,

Our youth system continues to produce top class players. I doubt we or anyone else will see anything like the class of 92 ever again. However, it is a sad reality that young players have different ambitions and motivations today, it is telling that our two biggest young talents of the last few years have moved clubs for different reasons. And Moyes's record with youth player development is not encouraging: breaking Rodwell with his training regime and refusing to play a player of Barkley's quality. You can count the players that made the transition from Everton's academy to the first team under Moyes on one hand.

And there is nothing hugely wrong with the club's scouting system. SAF was targeting top class players: Ozil, Hazard and Snejider, for example. The problem is more directly related to the owners and their lack of investment. No manager signs second and third options by choice, they do it if they can't secure the players they want. Moyes still has these constraints, however, players are far less likely to be enticed to play under Moyes than SAF. RVP, for example, would not be a United player if Moyes was in charge two summers ago. So I think we're actually in a weaker position when it comes to transfers, and this was borne out during the summer.

I am perfectly happy with transition, but I can't see what positive changes Moyes is trying to make. In fact yesterday the man himself claimed that he has changed nothing from last season. When SAF took over he told the supporters what he was doing and why he was doing it. With Rodgers last season, who I did not criticise, you could visibly see how he was changing the way Liverpool played: he came with a clear philosophy and stuck to it. I can't see any of this with Moyes. I see a man who is struggling to adapt to the pressures of a big club, supported by an inexperienced staff, and a team that looks drained of confidence and bereft of ideas. A team takes on its managers personality, SAF's United were always confident and resolute. Moyes United look scared that they are not good enough to win.

What we needed was a manager who would challenge the owners to invest properly in the team. We needed a manager who was assured of his status as a top manager and would not be happy unless he received the required financial backing. Instead we hired a manager who isn't proven at the top level, who wasn't identified through any selection process and didn't even have to interview for the job. We got a manager who was hired because his friend chose him. Now Moyes knows that his appointment will always be in question: he wasn't hired on merit, he was hired because who he is friends with. Because of this he needs the support of the owners and because of this he won't be seen to undermine them. Ultimately he is not the man to change the infrastructural problems: these problems are directly related to our owners and I can guarantee you that Moyes will never challenge them.

The reality of it all is that if we give Moyes the time people seem to think he needs we will find it harder and harder to attract the top players we need. We will be earning less and less prize money, be less and less assured of wining trophies, and we may find that next season that we can no longer guarantee CL football. Moyes has until the end of the season, but I, for one, think that the club should be planning for next summer and hiring a new manager properly and professionally.

{Ed002's Note - You need to sign in.}

The fact is apart from RVP and let's give Kagawa the benefit of the doubt (Who I think will leave) United have not bought a world class player in god knows how long, the players are all getting older we have also had injuries.

Now the injuries could be a by product of Moyes fitness regime which can be a problem, bear in mind that a large % of the United players have only ever known United

SAF leaving must have been a massive blow to all but Rooney also if we remember what happened when SAF said he was resigning before look how we fell away and that was while he still managed.

Moyes has been let down by his players no matter what happens he will still be manager and we can only work through it

No Name

Off course there are deep rooted problems when you fail/neglect to replace key players window after window and buy one winger after another that turn out to be prunes.

Do you know of any top teams who are as poor as us when it comes to crossing the ball into the box. Our best two strikers take turns on corners for christ sake when both playing.

There are far too many average players on this team and need a good kick up the backside. Either he gets them to play better, they go or he goes but doubt the next manager could do much better with this lot.

I'm the no name (sorry ed).

You still have to answer any of the substantive questions about Moyes. You say (a) another manager wouldn't be doing better and (b) we will have to wait and see if his 'changes' work out for the better.

First, our team is not as strong as some people think, and I have never disputed this. But I refuse to believe that there isn't another manager out there who could do better than Moyes. We still have one of the better squads in the league. Nowhere near the best in Europe, but come on we are struggling against every side we face. Take the blinkers off and ask yourself if are really a midtable side. Moyes is the manager, it's his job to motivate the players, if he can't do it then he is failing.

More importantly, you have yet to point toward any changes Moyes is making, any improvements he has started to make, or any evidence that he is capable of turning things around. There is a difference between acknowledging that the manager is making identifiable changes that will take time to implement, and crossing your fingers and repeating wait and see how it turns out in a few years.

Patience is a virtue and meaningful change takes time.

I think we should just stop now mate as we agree to disagree and just going over the same thing all the time.

As I have said there is a major difference between a manager making identifiable changes that take time to yield results, and crossing your fingers and hoping for the best. Moyes doesn't look like he's making any of the major changes you keep alluding to, he looks like he's struggling to cope with the job and the pressure, and is making mistake after mistake after mistake.

Patience is all well and good but when no Moyes supporter can point to a single positive change or impact in 5 months, then we have moved into the realm of blind faith.

08 Dec 2013 00:28:39
Sydney!

3 quotes by you

Last September, united were "3 players away from dominating Europe.

This season "united should sell rooney"
And
"united will finish atleast 25 points.above united"

The theatre of dreams, I say Sydney dare dream

Oh silly me I was under the impression the season was not even half way through yet!
Wot a tool

To ctr. Yeah right, it could get even worse!

08 Dec 2013 00:21:56
so Shahram still think we'll finish 3rd or 4th? and you call me naive!? I never once said I expected or thought we'd win the league mate! I said I expected a team that won the league last year to be competitive this year! If that expectation is too high then we are in trouble!

Where was our near 30m pound 'defensive midfielder' today? Carrick's out injured and he can't even make the bench ahead of Anderson who hasn't had a look in all season!

I think we will be in the running for a top 4. Fellaini and Smalling are both injured and Kagawa supposedly had his stomach pumped FYI. We are not having much luck with Injuries at the moment and unfortunately it is in areas where we need healthy bodies the most.

If you go back and do a search you will see I picked City to win and Spurs to be the surprise team and still believe that. People here are fickle and make outrageous predictions one way or another based on weekend results.

3 Weeks ago the posters who are more optimist were raving about being behind Chelsea and City by a point and having completed a tough stretch of opponents that we were now going on a run, now they want the manger sacked.

We are not great to watch by any measure and quite disjointed but we are also not out of it by any measure and when you are missing 3 out of 4 most creative players, it is hard to break down teams, who set up to defend with 10 guys, pack the midfield and sneak a goal on a broken play.

Valencia goes to sleep and Evra does his usual stupid thing and we lose 2 games that could have gone the other way and that is how football goes sometimes.

If you look at the current table and teams ahead of us, there is a big number of games coming up with these teams playing each other, no matter how the results go we will close the gap and move up the table.

I went through it last night and if we can get RVP and Rooney back firing, carrick back before our January fixtures and just some form out of any of our wingers, it is not a stretch to see us around the top 4 come end of January subject to us winning a bunch games on the bounce.

I do realize there is a lot of if's in that theory but that tells you how dependent we are as a team on certain players and the squad is not as good as some would want you to believe.

When you spend half as much as chelsea and a quarter of what city spend in the last 3 years it eventually catches up to you when you consider the age of our squad, players who we have lost and no meaningful progress from the likes of Nani, Welbeck, Cleverly, Valencia, Young, Anderson.

We will not be far off especially if we get a couple of players in January and I hope I am right and you guys are wrong for the sake of our club.

GCU

We're not great but we're better than this and there's only one person to look at. Moyes. With this squad at least on the first 5 places we would be now. Please enough with those excuses.

So every team above us are just better than us, end of discussion.

Nick86

Who is making excuses. Did I say every team above us is better. I still think we will be in there for a top 4 finish unlike many here but it will not be easy and we have to do it the hard way and win the reverse fixtures against the bunch that have not stopped smirking over our last 2 results. Need RVP, Rooney and Carrick on the pitch.