Manchester United Banter Archive February 08 2014

08 Feb 2014 20:50:06
Hey ED, as far as I know a player needs to get his badges from FIFA/UEFA to be a manager right?

Gary Monk is a player-manager for Swansea now so does that mean he simultaneously earned those badges while playing?

{Ed002's Note - Sort of, there is a period of grace if needs be. I have no idea if or when he did his coaching badges but he hasn't played much in the past couple of years.}

He said the other day he has done or doing his coaching badges, it was during his pre match press conference.

08 Feb 2014 19:18:21
Interesting that Journo Rafael Hernandez (Barca fan boi) comments on Cleverley (I agree 100% sadly)

Cleverley just passes and that's it. He lacks vision, ability, dribble, shooting and everything else that makes a midfielder good
Cleverley isn't good enough most PL clubs, let alone Manchester United. Wouldn't be surprised to see him in the Championship in a few years.
I'm not comparing, but Xavi used to get criticized before Guardiola for exaggerating on safe passing and pointless ball recycling.

Come on Syd, defend your boy!

AJH, I said at the end of last season that he hadn't pushed on as much as I had hoped and to be fair he has been worse this season. For me he has never looked the same since the Davies tackle. He is a MU squad player and IMO will remain a MU squad player even when we buy our top central midfielder/s, but it doesn't look like he will develop much past that now and he certainly hasn't fulfilled his potential. Although he was never a central midfielder anyway, he still wouldn't have ever been a first choice CAM or winger for us.

{Ed007's Note - I've printed that reply out and put it up on my office wall Syd!}

Office?

{Ed007's Note - I've got an office room in the house.}

Didn't Cleverley play LB in the reserves? That's what I remember.

The fact that Cleverley was seen as a CAM makes it even more bizarre that he is so negative with his passing. What good is an atticking midfielder that likes to pass backwards and sideways. I suppose at least Chicharito wouldn't be offside! lol

Sydney

On current form he will not be here in 24 months.

Given the fact that vididc, Giggs, rio, evra, 1 or 2 wingers will go this summer and will need to be replaced to an extend, plus our midfield requirements, he is safe this summer.

Same applies to players like Welbeck. Personally believe neither can use the excuse that they are young anymore and still developing and the reality is not good enough to wear the shirt and suitable for 11th to 15th place teams in the PL.

Moyes has less patients by the looks of it than SAF and many will not be given season after season, if they are not performing.

Evening Sydney. Not much point of carrying on with him if he is going to remain a squad player. We have youngster trying to break thru who are better than him.
Liverpool keep introducing their youngsters and look at the impact they've had. So I would like to give the likes of petrucci, Powell, Pearson, their chance than carry on with cleverly.

I think psychologically the injury is still holding him back.

Its a comparable situation to Ramsey, I took him 2 seasons to mentally recover and during that time he had pelters from Arsenal fans. Wenger showed faith and he's repaid him this season.

Now I'm not saying that Cleverley is as good or better than Ramsey, or even that Moyes has the same of faith as Wenger.

But surely we should keep him for 18 months, see if he can get back to the level he looked to be on. Remember the charity shield and Arsenal matches before his injury.

Also it isn't his fault that Fergie never bought anyone, Fletcher has had a long term illness, Anderson couldn't lay off Gregs cheese and bacon twists, and Carrick and Fellini picked up injuries meaning we had to play Giggs or Jones.

I think Cleverley works best in a midfield 3, and with the right 2 players with him could have come good. However that's not Moyes tactics and I don't see us making the right purchases not when we need a whole new defence.

I do say keep him for 18 months and see how he goes. In that time he may come good or he may not, by then Rothwell or Pearson should be knocking the first team door and it would only be right if Cleverley steps down.

I just don't think he is good enough. Nothing more to add.

To be honest I agree with GCU, the lad will be 25 at the start of next season and we have to accept that he simply hasn't reached anywhere near the hype of three seasons ago.

I don't buy the he needs to remain a squad player. He is a very limited player and rarely has an impact. For a squad player you're looking for one of a few things: player who can step in if the first choice is injured, or a player that can make a difference off the bench, or a player who can offer a different dimension, or a young player who may develop into a regular starter. Cleverley has been viewed as a young developing player for the last few years but he can't play that card anymore.

So, is he good cover?
No, he has struggled to compete against top flight midfields.

Is he good off the bench?
No, he doesn't have it in his locker to change a game.

Does he offer a different dimension?
In a way, yes he does, but it's one dimension. This would mean keeping a player on the books for the sole purpose of helping retain possession, and most midfielders are capable of doing this and more.

Mort

Being able to dribble, shoot or make a telling pass is not a phycological thing mate. I agree with AJH on this one 100%.

I think we have a tendency to want to see our younger guys for being much better than they really are.

I watched Zaha today and I have to say he is clueless defensively and does not work hard enough and and even when he is back, his positioning and awareness is appalling. I do really hope he improves but on current level he will not play for us very often.

What's the point of having him on the bench when he offers nothing when coming on

Mort, I have no doubt that the club will keep Cleverley as a squad player to see if he improves in the future. I also believe he is still suffering from that tackle, but he really needs to show his mettle now if he wants to make it at the club.

To be fair do any of the top sides in our league have squad players (central midfield) that offer much more than Cleverley? These days it's hard finding decent squad players that are happy to be squad players and that are on relatively low salaries. I am all for giving a youth player a chance, that's why I want Cleverley to succeed, but Pearson is probably two years away, as is Goss, Rothwell & Perreira. Powell is possibly a year away if he even is to play that deep in midfield. With Fletcher and Carrick getting on, it leaves just Fellaini. So I think there is certainly no rush to sell Cleverley. It will be interesting to see how many CMers we sign in the summer.

Danny

An excellent analysis of him and you said it much better than I did.

09 Feb 2014 00:10:50
I agree its a psychological thing. He could play before he got injured, now its all about playing it safe. Clearly there is an issue. I agree with Syd, given the number of departures this summer and the need for quality replacements it makes sense to keep him on for another season, he's not on huge money, keeps up the home grown quota, and the likely youth replacements are two years off. Nani and Anderson got how many chances after all. We can worry about replacing squad players in a season or two but right now we have bigger issue in getting in four quality starters at left back, centre back, centre mid and left wing, finding buyers for the flops and sorting out Rooney one way or the other as that's still hanging over the club, not to mention needing a new captain. I think cleverley is low on the list.

Well, anyone who has followed Cleverly's progression from the reserves through Watford, Wigan, into our first team will understand that the boy is not as bad as some think here. Infact the first few games of of the season which virtually ended because of that pathetic Kevin Davies tackle, we played our best football in almost 5 years. Clevs was central to everything.

It most certainly is a confidence thing. He almost looks scared to run with the ball or look for an ambitious pass. That is not an excuse though. He will have to put his stuff together. Time is running out for him.

Its easy to ignore that CM is not Tom's favourite position. Fergie ignoring the midfield plight is by no means the lads fault. Can he make it here? I don't know, on present form NO. But I think, he has more to offer and will surprise a fair few on here.

Deeps.

MrE

Spot on. He is safe this summer but will not survive the one after if this is the best he has to offer. We had bigger priorities at the moment, bout eventually guys like him will go.

He is on 40k or 50k at the moment and that is not small wages she you consider what some of the other mids in the league and europe get paid.

The reality is take the top 4 or 5 teams from most of europe's leading leagues and he would is not good enough to get into those teams, so never good enough for United home grown or not.

Shahram, Cleverley is on around £30k a week, but if given a new deal he will be on between £40k-£50k a week for sure. He is one of the lowest paid midfielders in the league for a top club. He signed his new contract whilst on loan at Wigan. If he was a mainstay in the MU team at the time (like he has been), then no doubt he would be on £40k-£50k a week.

Tell a lie, he signed a new deal in October 2011, then a couple weeks later he got that ankle ligament injury that kept him out for almost a year. So after a couple months as a MU player they upped his £16k a week. Probably doubled it.

If Sydney was our manager we would have sold our best player last summer (Rooney) and we'd be giving that 300k a week to clev. Sydney, always good for a laugh, and an opera house and a child if you want to pick a name before you know the gender of the baby.

If I was manager I wouldn't have allowed Rooney to get fat in the first place, so there wouldn't have been a need to sell :)

08 Feb 2014 18:55:34
Evening all has anybody else read Tim Howards interview with ssn it makes quite interesting reading and makes you wonder if this is one of the reasons our players are struggling

Absolutely no surprise whatsoever! Small team manager mentality. The more I hear about this man the more I dispair.

Here are the quotes from Tim off the news site.

"We'll train on trying to exploit them, as opposed to 'Here is what they are going to do to hurt us and this is what we are going to do to defend against them'. That is not in the manager's nature.

"The way his mind works, it is like the move A Beautiful Mind. He always sees holes in the other team. He doesn't see the danger, he seeks the weaknesses and gets us working on that.

In my opinion this has been said many times on this site exactly what Howard has said, its incredible how everyone sees it yet, no great homework was done when appointing the manager its crazy.

08 Feb 2014 17:32:02
That new guy Mourinho seems to be fairly decent at this management malarkey doesn't he? It's a shame he doesn't fit our managerial criteria, ie win every league he's contested and Champs League with different teams.

Say what you want about his personality and style. We seem to have forgotten about Rooneys off-field escapades and the fact Jonny Evans loves a good Sunday roast (ing) haven't we?

The man is a winner. End of. It beggars belief that there wasn't at least an interview process for our managerial vacancy. Let me see, Mourinho v Klopp v Ancelotti v Guardiola v Hiddink v . Wenger (yes that one). All fulfill the criteria we HAD to be looking for: a proven winner.

And yet, somehow a candidate without the required skillset has been appointed and low and behold we are languishing in 7th and will not get appreciably higher.

Yes I know I should get behind Moyes but there's nothing in his track record that suggests we will win anything under him. Can anyone tell me what style we are playing now btw? At least you know with a Mourinho side you've got 9 outfield players who defend and press with one outstanding flair player to galvanise the team forward. Mourinho's record speaks for itself.

From being Champions I'm not sure we can break into Top 4 NEXT season from where we are now:
Chelsea - better manager/ better squad / unlimited resources
City - best squad in league / great footballing style / unlimited resources
Arsenal - better manager / great footballing style / equal to us in terms of resources
Liverpool - better manager / great footballing style

We are vying for 5th place at best next 2 seasons minimum.

I wonder where we would be though if had approached a certain Portuguese?

Would of been my first choice

I have to agree with you it really doesn't seem like fergie made the right choice wev got a defensive manager to lead the champons

Here we are again. Mourinho is a great manager but he is also am arse of the highest order and I would not want to see him at our club. I'm not going to list his misdemeanours but his crime sheet is extensive. Some of you don't care as long as we win, I do.

How many times do people need telling? Mourinho was never going to join Manchester United

One of the most disappointing aspects for me is how so many supporters are quick to attack our players performance (players who have given us trophy after trophy) but DM seems to shoulder none of the blame. IMO his performance to date has been nothing short of shocking. Anything less than a convincing win tomorrow should not be tolerated.what's more thanks to DM we're having the wettest winter in 250 years. Yet another unwanted record!

"we're having the wettest winter in 250 years" LOL, I told you guys this is weird year.

He is not our manager and was never going to be. There was not too long ago people made fun of BR and thought Laudrup was Real madrid manger material. It is very fickle game and crowd.

Get hazard, ramirez, oscar out of that line up and they are very average.

It's not just having the best players it's also about getting the best out of them. I bet there aren't too many on here that think Rooney wouldn't be an even better player under JM. Apologies for the double negative:-)

Unitedred71

Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal have been on a good run starting last feb/march. Mourinho has shored up their defending and had a very good team team to start with and added 6 players for the tune of 130 mill, please let's not start this, every week he gets a result and we don't LOL.

They have been fortunate with almost no injuries to any key players and pretty set first 11 for some time now.

Last time he came to your shores united were rebuilding and were poor but SAF saw him off once our team started coming through. His timing is impeccable as we are starting another rebuilding process, he will not be here in 3 years time.

GCU

The last paragraph is just useless!
Take CR7, Modric and Bale or whoever you want.
Take Vidal, Pogba and Pirlo.
Take Suarez and Sturridge.
Take Reus, Lewy and + one. Every other team is dependable on classy players like them, simple fact!

GCU

Get hazard, ramirez, oscar out of that line up and they are very average.

Mate, take RVP, Rooney and Mata out of our attack and we're a midtable team if we're going down that road.

Mourinho is a born winner, Moyes has never won anything. There is no comparison and the league table proves it.

The management skills of JM and DM cannot be compared. ( for the record I didn't want JM as our manager as I think there are better ones suited to our DNA) that said if I had a £150m to invest in building a team I know who I'd rather give it to.
My big fear is that we wait 2-3 years before we realise that the wrong man is in the hot seat or that he changes our expectation of success. A CL place and a good cup run.

Nick86

Why is it useless, you just said the same thing I said.

My point was put a healthy Aguero, Nasri and Fernandinho back into city's team and I will bet a lot and I really mean a lot on them winning at home against Chelsea.

Then take take out hazard, oscar and ramirez and imagine what the outcome would be. Easy money for those who like a bet with or without Mourinho.

Agreed nick 86. Take rvp, Rooney and mata out and who have we got. Crazy statement.
As for the crtisisms of mourinho, they are just barking mad.
JM has the same characteristics as fergie, he knew how to get under people's skin and achieve his goals. So for people to start being critical of mourinho for that, smacks of jealousness and hypocracy.
Fact is, if jm was united manager, this team will be challenging for the title, simple as that.

Nick86, I like the way you names 3 from Madrid, 3 from Juventus, then can only manage 2 from Liverpool. lol

Nomid, I know you are anti-Moyes, fair enough. But there is no way on God's green earth that this United team would win the title this season, even under Mourinho or SAF. We can only guess as to whether those two would have made better signings, but the current team is not good enough. Especially given the injuries this season.

Yes we have had lots of injuries this season, but how many of them are down to David Moyes training methods? Rio and RVP are allegedly far from impressed with Moyes intensive run them into the ground approach. I hope Moyes gets it right, but everything I have seen from him so far suggests he won't. Einstein said something along the lines of "madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a diffrent result" somebody should point this out to Moyes.

RED_SKY

We have missed Rooney and RVP most of the season and we have hardly had the services of many other players.

Mourinho is a winner because he came into a great porto team that was loaded and from there he has build a great resume at clubs who can spend huge sums of money to build teams.

Moyes has to prove if he can win given the same tools and will know in the next 18 to 24 months.

I would rather they point out the exit!

Huggy76

2 years ago we led the premiere league in injuries. People are blaming the new guy for everything without any facts.

Our injuries are mostly happening when we are playing and not in training unless you account for jones putting his studs through rooney's forehead.

If anything age and lack of fitness leads to injuries and not the other way round.

Players like smalling, jones, nani, rafael, evans, young have always been injury prone and not the most durable. Then you have stuff like freak concussions to vidic and jones and nothing to do with training methods.

Nomid

"Fact is, if jm was united manager, this team will be challenging for the title, simple as that.

You do really talk some rubbish sometimes and flavor of the month sot of guy. We would be in Chaos with him as he would blame players, split the team, have a spat with the board and god knows what else.

Evening GCU. I accept that many of our injuries have occurred during games, but are there more injuries occurring due to over training and not enough down time?
If injuries have always been an issue does that mean you blame moyes for the league position/ poor management?
As you state we have coped with injuries before. Even when nearly all our defenders have been injured at the same time. So why the dismal showing this season?

GCU. I think they're taking one hell of an uneccesary risk with our club by employing a manager with no proven track record.

Unitedred71

I would agree in most circumstances but the thing that makes me more comfortable than some others here, is people like SAF and SBC and the board made the decision. I trust their judgment.

They bleed this club and know it inside out. They must have a damn good reason for their selection and make no mistake us and arsenal are the best run clubs in the country.

No one knows DM here and the criticism is way over the top and blaming him for everything just gets real boring. It is now a means of people venting their frustration given our terrible season and to make matters worse, arsenal and the scourers are having a great season which makes it harder for people to take :)

Evening Huggy

It is just injuries to key players and us being highly dependent on them. Whilst RVP might have not taken to the training, other have definitely improved i.e. rooney, janusaj. But RVP's case is the one that gets all the headlines and not sure there is any truth to it.

I would have preferred Klopp to Mourinho to be honest. While I hope Moyes' gets his she*p together and starts turning us into a decent attacking team again, if he doesn't and gets sacked I hope we try get Klopp in after him.

08 Feb 2014 15:17:48
Assuming that majority of our transfer budget will be spent on buying an LB and CM(55-60 million+ in total) we would probably have to go for a cheap CB in the range of £8-12 mil.
(Don't think we'll spend more than £70m)

Any probable candidates?

Also considering RvP's injury record we may still be able to play Powell in 20-25 games next season in all competitions as an attacking forward. But I prefer we send him on loan in the PL.

I think we will spend more than £70m in the summer.

08 Feb 2014 14:08:54
Have to say this this is the weirdest season ever in the pl history. I can't ever remember a season, where the top teams have been able to put a hiding on each other like we have seen this year.

On another note, can't believe wilshire is still on the pitch and ozil has struggled in many games against the better sides in the pl.

I agree, Oezil hasn't been a £50m player this season, but will probably be better next season.

We did beat Arsenal 8-2 a couple seasons ago when they had RvP. That season was quite odd too.

That was a one off syd,

I was talking about the scores in some of the matches this year, i.e. city vs united, city vs spurs, city vs arsenal, liverpool vs everton, liverpool vs arsenal.

The score lines are quite uncommon given the the teams have been close in the standings and most people expecting much tighter affairs. I can ever remember a season like this in the past.

08 Feb 2014 13:48:11
Bit late, but I have to say a huge thanks to our captain, Nemanja Vidic. Personally my favourite player and I am truly sad at the news of him leaving. A true warrior, leader and club legend. The man put his head on the line and broke his nose for the cause, a rock at the back. I would have wanted Vidic to stay, since we are losing a lot of experience with Evra, Rio and Vidic now leaving. On replacing him, I would sign Medhi Benatia, top class defender, good age, good experience, and would complement Jones, Evans or Smalling very well. Also, if Vidic were to play really well between now and the end of the season, would he consider staying.

Gilly Benatia moved to Roma last season and he is their first choice CB. He will be playing CL with Roma next season. Getting him would be very difficult.

I am well aware of that Mumbai boy. His form this season for Roma is what prompted me to suggest him. Also maybe offer him the captaincy and he would jump at the chance.

08 Feb 2014 13:05:49
so much for a favour from the gunners today:( Liverpool look devastating on the break!

A couple goals from set pieces and then Liverpool could just sit and get them on the break. Disgraceful defending by Arsenal. I think this will be a turning point for Arsenal, I suspected they would fade by mid-March, it could be even earlier.

The worry is now that Arsenal will be more than up for our game and will be determined to bounce back. At the moment we seem to be caving in, that's a worry.

Who knows, maybe Arsenal will crumble now. Perhaps the Scousers will push on, and we end up challenging Arsenal for 4th spot?

They've been great today Syd.
At least give them some credit.

JK, Liverpool have got their tactics spot on today. They certainly deserve credit. But Arsenal have been very uncharacteristically poor defensively today and I hope they repeat that on Wednesday.

Syd
What did you say about the scouse ;)

Yeah Betty I was thinking that Arsenals whole season could fall apart over the next 10 days and I personally don't think they would have the character to respond if that were to happen. Remember we only need 1 side out of 4 to drop doesn't matter which one it is :)

Jred, I know, how wrong can I get? Ha ha.

Last season I was spot on, I said we would win the league and finish 30 points ahead of the Scouse. Didn't expect MU to be so poor this season and Liverpool have played better than I expected. credit where it's due.

08 Feb 2014 12:07:25
Just watched rooney interview on bbc1 football focus. Looked positive and said the right things. About his future he said "I'm going to focus on football and will do till the end of the season"?!? Also he said he wants to break United records. I no many on this site hate the guy but if he fights like he has all season then why knock a fighter. He may go on to break all the records and I feel this is a good thing and with confidence and fitness there aren't many better.

I don't hate him and just want the thing to be settled one way or another. It will be a massive issue and distraction again this summer which is what we don't really need.

Him staying or going does make a big difference in terms of planning for the club and who are the targets, where to spend money.

If he does move on we would definitely be in the market for a top striker and that will cost a lot and will impact our ability in terms of spending on other positions. I can't see us going into a new season with an aging/injury prone RVP, Welbeck who is hopeless(jelavic is better IMO) and Hernandez who is a good impact sub.

I hope the guy stays because no matter what anyone feels or says we need the passion and desire he brings to the pitch each time he plays. If we didn't have that passion in the few wins we have gained then I don't want to think what position we'd be in right now.

Van P's injuries were well known and I think we have to live with that and grin and bear it. Hopefully we can get the best out of him soon and find a major signing to replace him?!? That's going to be ask in itself.

If you ideally (realistically) could replace Rooney and Van P (2/4 of our world class players) who would you choose.

I'm struggling to think of 2 major players that would be willing to come in and play for a new and unproven manager, struggling for form and worse still maybe no CL football and that's after having a season to try and show some spark with what he has.

I have faith in Moyes and I'm hoping he can turn the rest of the season around, a good showing in the CL and push really hard for that fourth spot.

08 Feb 2014 10:40:37
Liverpool drop points today,
we hammer fulham with rvp, rooney and mata hitting some form which will finally kickstart our season and see us push for 4th.
That's my prediction, but I have been wrong before.

I think Liverpool may win today. Spurs and/or Everton will drop points tomorrow. We must win, but a convincing win will install a bit more belief for when we ply Arsenal.

I can't see Liverpool losing today. On paper we had an opportunity to close down the gap with them playing Everton and Arsenal the past 2 weeks.

Unfortunately they disposed of Everton like some Sunday league team and Arsenal has some injures that is not going to help their cause, but as usual they will get everyone back in time for our game:) We on the other hand managed to lose to stoke.

A draw would be pretty good result for us.

I didn't see Everton getting anything at Anfield. The same as I don't see Spurs get anything at the Emirates. Spurs and Everton always bottle it as they know they are the smaller club compared to their rivals.

Our issue this season has been let's say we close the gap this weekend but the we give it all back the following week with a horrendous result.

This team needs to do what others have done to us this season and go get a few big results on the road and piece a bunch a of wins together.

Arsenal next week would be a good start.

You will be amazed how a few result will change things in terms of our own confidence and teams above us will suddenly not look so composed if we are right on their shoulder.

Add a few untimely injuries to specific players to the teams above us and suddenly they will start dropping points in places and against teams that are unexpected.

I hope we have no more injuries this weekend and get some players back.

Liverpool will continue their accustomed downwards slide.

We might beat fulham easily but then we got arsenal away and we know how incosistent we are and I can't see arsenal losing 2 in a row

Sydney by that logic we should always beat City at OT.

Liverpool ripping arsenal apart and on current form with city and chelsea to still go to Anfield, suddenly they might be in the running for the PL title never mind top 4.

Can I change my prediction. :-)
As hard as it is to say it, they clearly deserve 4th a lot more than us at this moment.

Arsenal are defending like they did at times last season. Hopefully they defend like this next week too.

MB, I am not talking about all derbies, I am talking about the Liverpool and North London derbies specifically.

Shahram, Arsenal having a nightmare 18 minutes doesn't mean much. Arsenal will finish well below City this season.

Liverpool are not genuine title contenders either IMO, City will run away with it this season.

I agree Syd that Arsenal are making them look good. But there is no doubt Liverpool look much better than us at this moment and deserve 4th. Things change though

Will Red, I agree completely.

08 Feb 2014 09:35:46
Morning guys, let's hope arsenal do us a favour today. I was just looming at Ferguson's first team sheet and this is the task he had to get united to be a major force in football. Of course Robson didn't play that game, but apart from McGrath, albiston and Stapleton, the team was quite poor on quality.
1. Chris Turner
2. Mike Duxbury
3. Arthur Albiston
4. Kevin Moran
5. Paul McGrath
6. Graeme Hogg
7. Clayton Blackmore
8. Remi Moses
9. Frank Stapleton
10. Peter Davenport
11. Peter Barnes
Fergie might not have left moyes with the best team, but it is a damn side better than the team fergie inherited.

Duxbury started well but started to get blamed for everything towards the end if his united career by the fans. Had a soft spot for Moran because he was a warier type. Also Moses was a good player but had started to have problems with ankle when Fergie took over very underrated I thought. We did play exciting football under Atkinson most of the time though . Not consistent or quite good enough to win the league .