Manchester United Banter Archive December 09 2013

 

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09 Dec 2013 22:13:03
hi guys, I do feel sorry for moyes.i think he is a nice guy but being a nice person isn't going to save/help us, we need someone u knows how to play the utd way or moyes should have listen to saf about keeping the backroomstaff, for me that I think was moyes biggest mistake so he is paying the price now, what do u guys, ed's(utd ed's) think will happen if we get a draw or lose the game against aston villa, what if we lose against shaktar.someone please tell me that their is light at the end of the tunnel, banter please ed's.

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Well zee no matter what happens, I believe Moyes will be given until the end of the season, especially if we do not strengthen. If he manages to strengthen and get a couple of first teamers of his choice, and they perform well and we manage to improve, he will not be sacked.

But if he gets his targets and we're still underperforming, I believe we'd have a new manager by september

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09 Dec 2013 22:12:51
Nomidfield
You went on and on all last season that the team wasn't good enough, now it seems it's a great team and we have a poor manager.
I will ask you again

United are 8 points behind Chelsea 7 behind city.
If you look at our last 4 games 2:2 Cardiff, 2:2 spurs, 1:0 Everton1:0 Newcastle
how many more points do you think we would of picked up with a fully fit Carrick and rvp?
Also if moyes had got some of the players he wanted in the summer say fabergas and Baines?

Yes all teams have injuries but last year Carrick and Rvp played most games.
How would we off done last year with out rvp and Carrick?
I thought our standard off football was poor last season, I think you may of mentioned it a few times yourself but how many times did rvp pull us out the brown stuff?
I'm not sure moyes is a great manager, he was a good manager at Everton but not great, he plays defensive football and I'm not sure he can make the step up to the very top of the tree. He has to prove himself at United .
I said all this in the summer and I think 15 league games after taking over from Fergy and loosening our best two players from last season to injury makes it a bit early to judge.


I'm genuinely interested in your answers

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Jred

In seasons past Carrick even played in defence at times but no doubt he is missed. However Moyes bought a £27m midfield player who should be good enough at that price to cover Carrick. I note the club are being very quiet on Fellaini and are hardly pushing him forward.
I think we all knew the team over achieved last season however the performance this season has even been below what should be expected of the sum of what is there, the Champions no less. I felt there were some who didn't want the ball on Saturday, and when we went behind the team didn't have the fight and didn't look like pulling a goal back. That comes from the top and is very concerning.

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Wasting your time, mate. The hystericals aren't interested in reason. It's like reading Chicken Licken on here lately.

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Redman
I have said for a long time now it's not a great team .
I think since the glazers took over there has been a change in our transfer policy, which I think I have talked about enough.
Them games I mentioned above Carrick would of made a difference and rvp would of pinched a goal .
Moyes for me isn't the problem, the team has been on the decline for a while anyone with out red tinted glasses could see it .
Maybe moyes isn't good enough I just think after only 15 games it's to early to tell.
But after a few years of watching them I can say some of them players are definitely not good enough

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Jred. I didn't say last year's team was a great ream. I merely named seven players in our team who will walk in any team. So the fact we are in 9th place having lost three games at ot already is a reflection on the manager and staff.
I think we would have got 2 more points with carrick and rvp in the team. I think we would have managed draws against Everton and Newcastle.
Sk, do you have any views at all or do u just like the drivel you write? It is pathetic. You asked if we will beat everton and you were adamant we will while I said we won't. It didn't give me pleasure in seeing our team being outplayed by everton. So why don't u just accept you were wrong and act like a man.

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I have views, mate.

They're just not the knickers in a twist ones, that you and some others on here espouse. At least the likes of Red Man, even if I don't share his pessimism, are able to articulate their views in a grown up manner.

Rather than just repeating, I love Klopp, I hâte Moyes, and Utd are crap ad nauseum.


I believe in taking my time to form an opinion, rather than just coming out with knee-jerk, infantile soundbites which I feel I have to air because I love the sound of my own voice.

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And I wasn't referring to you personally NM, so no need to be so precious. But obviously if the cap fits.

Regarding the Everton game, I did say I thought we'd win. So shoot me. But if we want to talk about predictions, do you want to go through your posts last season, and count how many times you ranted and raved about Utd, HALFWAY through a game, before looking like an eejit at full time?

And you wonder why it's hard to take your views seriously.

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Well said jred.

Moyes may not be the best out there, but to blame everything on him is quite naive imo. Some players have played shockingly bad.

How many games has Moyes been able to field Rooney, Rvp, Carrick, Rafael, Jones in a single team? Those are our 5 best outfield players.

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"I think we would have got 2 more points with carrick and rvp in the team"

Amazing statement. I bet we would not have lost any of those game and picked up 2 wins and 2 draws minimum.

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09 Dec 2013 21:12:30
fingers crossed god created united, I hope we struggle a little more so the glazer loose a lot of money by not reaching the champions league and how to sell, and calvin u can find god created united post on the other post page, ed's banter please, so please don't post it on other post page, thanks and good night guys and ed's zee:)

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{Ed002's Note - You need to be careful for what you wish for. Institutional owners would be the worst thing for the club.}

Hi ed002, I just hope we get some good owners who just don't think about money but the fans to.maybe I have been spoiled by us winning alots of titles but I just want us to have owners who thinks about our great club, both of the field and on the field, good night ed002 sweet dreams:)

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If the glazers do sell, and that's a big ask the new owners will be just as hard nosed - you do not invest £2bn then had over the club to numpties and say get on with it - MUFC is a massive business, just being appallingly badly run at present.

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09 Dec 2013 20:36:55
I admit I was wrong. I said Moyes didn't know how to turn things around, but he has well and truly schooled me in his last interview. While I was criticising the man, Moyes with his dynamic, no majestic tactical nous was devising a cunning master plan.

We have been awful recently, but Moyes knows what to do. According to the chosen one, "We'd like to generally play better, we'd like to pass better, create more chances, and defend better when those moments arise."

So there you have it. Just when you thought the league was out of reach, Moyes sets us back on track. Now if we can defend better, pass better, attack better, and play better we will destroy our opponents. What a mind, what a man.

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I genuinely feel sorry for Moyes. He's a nice bloke and he's going to end up in a padded cell if his OT tenure doesn't start improving soon.

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Pure class danny. The man is a genius. Look forward to seeing us playing like bayern tomorrow! Don't hold your breath.
The man is embarrassing to watch.

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09 Dec 2013 21:53:33
Agree with you all - Moyes is a good manager but maybe not for us. I think that he's been arrogant in getting rid of the coaching staff. I can see why but think it was naive! He wanted to stamp his mark but should have don't it with time. Don't broke what's not fixed! It's arrogance to say Evertons coaches are better than uniteds. They may work better with DM but in any job people learn from each other. It's how you handle that. Fergie said it about CQ.none if everyone's back room staff have been poached by top clubs but when world class players such as RVP praise a coach as the best I've worked with says something! Don't have pride to let him go. Have pride to work with him. You prove as a team. New people bring out the best in you when you least know it!

Now I thing Moyes knows a his failingS. He's been unlucky with injuries and things will improve. It's a transitional period. He needs to shake things up with world class signings. Real mardrid were similar and realised. They then splashed silly amounts of money to state their intent And say we are a top club in the world. We need to do that now as prices will be inflated after the WC and they need pre season. Show our intent. We have outstanding young players. Splash cash now or we'll not even be a Liverpool soon! Hard to admit but we'll cross paths if we don't sort it!

Adz- Mcr

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I posted about leadership and the importance of outlining the managers vision of how he sees the club moving forward, however this uttering from our manager isn't what I had in mind.
I do wonder where we would be now if the club had selected a top manager such as Klopp. I don't believe we would be 9th, I believe we would have bought someone more significant in the window (and they wouldn't have been from Everton) but most significantly with Klopp we would know the direction he would take us in, we would know his vision. We would not be concerned because we would know Klopps vision would match our own and most importantly he had done it before so be more likely to repeat it again. Klopp is a leader however our present incumbent isn't and that is a major difference. Oh if only

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Redman
So with kloop you think the glazers would if spent big

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Let's splash the cash like City(won f--- all)last season, let's splash the cash like Spurs did this summer window!lets sack our manager like Chealsea and City and be guaranteed what?
Your all great entertainment keep up the good work.
Can't wait for us to turn this round and read your comments

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Moyes just admitted he takes full responsability for the way were performing

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Jred. If u look at klopp's signings, he doesn't spent a lot.

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09 Dec 2013 20:32:13
WARNING, watch yourself if your driving around old trafford, lots of people picking up 3 points

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Sorry, had to laugh

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I'd hope they all go!

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09 Dec 2013 18:16:14
Ed, I've read an article today listing the following as potential departures in January; Rio, Evra, Welbeck, Cleverley, Young, Nani, Zaha, Anderson, Kagawa and Hernandez.

Obviously all ten won't leave, but who do you think realistically could?

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The only players I can realistically see leaving in January are young and anderson

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I could see Rio leaving for the MLS, plus Anderson, Evra and Young 'cos they're not good enough.

I wouldn't be surprised to Hernandez leave for more 1st team football and I'd like to see Nani go but he new 5 year deal makes me doubt he will.

I also think Cleverley will stay although I'd like to see him move and replaced with someone better.

Kagawa is the big question mark but I wouldn't be surprised if Rooney moved in the summer and that would open up a spot in the team for Kagawa

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It's nonsense. Why would we get rid of 10 players when we're unlikely to sign even one?

Also, don't expect the clearout to be as big as this - in reality, this summer, I could see:

- Evra going to France
- Rio retiring
- Nani and/or Young being sold
- Kagawa going back to Dortmund
- Jobbers like Macheda and Bebe being cut loose - on free transfers if need be.

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Alt

Sorry mate, didn't read your post properly, you agree that all 10 won't be leaving.

To add - Cleverly and Welbeck will be at OT for years to come. but we can only hope this is strictly as squad players/substitutes.

Hernandez is a likely one to leave at some point, Anderson - not sure. Nobody will pay what we want for him. I can see a scenario where he's given another contract and we're told he's going to 'come good' this time.

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Evra, Rio and Giggs will all be gone come summer, throw in Fletcher as well.

Nani I think only got the contract to up the asking price.

Young and Anderson, well if we get money for them in January it will be the biggest mugging in the January sales after Primani.

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Wasn't Giggs given a new contract?

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Yeah, then Moyes can go and buy heitnga and jelavic! And probably pay £80m for them.

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Ive just got this really bad feeling about Steven Pienaar.

I can see it now, Moyes claiming that SAF was interested in Pienaar in the past so it's proof he's a Utd-calibre player.

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09 Dec 2013 18:34:52
Lol just seen it bond! AMAZING! Lol if any are confused take a trip to the arsenal banter page, u will not be disappointed :-)

Once again amazing :-)

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{Ed007's Note - Och no wonder, who would do that?}

Lol he got wot he deserved!
Had me in stitches that!

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Just seen it. Quality. I was going to ask if anybody had anything good to say about us but I haven't got an Arsenal page login ;)

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Ed, you actually had me feeling a wee bit sorry for him. Harsh, mate, very harsh :)

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Guys would you like to offer a little clue what we should be looking for. Can't be bothered to read other pages but sounds interesting.

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09 Dec 2013 14:27:29
Hey EDs and others do you think Moyes was ever considered as a managerial candidate by Chelsea, City or Spurs?

I mean City and Chelsea have changed a lot of managers in the past few years but not once do I remember his name being linked with these big clubs.

Have we made a mistake by appointing him?

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{Ed002's Note - No he wasn't - but it is nothing to do with the other clubs.}

09 Dec 2013 18:21:01
Just because their rich doesn't make them big, I remember an argument at work with someone who said Chelsea were bigger than Bayern.

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09 Dec 2013 17:07:00
hi god created united, I hope its true, that the glazer are looking to sell united.hope we get a rich sheik.btw is it a roumer or fact.thanks for the good news, hope its true mate.btw ed's please post this on the banter side thanks:)

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I do hope too.To be honest I have no Idea. I know these guys through work and they are a massive listed company and hang out in certain circles.

He is actually a Chelsea season ticket holder and after the meeting we had a little bit of banter as usual and actually going to the United/Chelsea game in Jan.

He said he was having lunch with one of the owners of Ladbrokes and was told the info. There so many rumors when it comes to us, it is difficult to make sense of what is true and what is fiction.

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Sorry to be a pain but can't seem to find your original post about the glazers selling?any chance you can repeat what you said thanks

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Just pretty much what I have said above and gain please let's not go viral here but that is what they said. It would be great news if true and the new owners were better than the current ones.

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Shahram, that will be great. I remember saying that once and everyone said that we don't need a rich owner and we don't want to be like city and chelsea, blablabla.
Of course we want a rich owner, but we want an owner who cares and understands football.
I hope it happens and I hope they go and take Moyes, Woodward, Round and all the other rubbish brought in from Everton with them.

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09 Dec 2013 15:33:29
Hi edd, other than herrera are you aware of any other midfield targets that would be realistic for january? We really need a midfielder that can dictate the tempo of the game.

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{Ed004's Note - I can't think of many. Maybe Cabaye but a premium price would have to be payed}

Ed004, I suppose by your answer you don't believe Gundogan, Rakitic and Banega to be realistic options?

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{Ed004's Note - Probably not during a season. Not sure Banega is good enough}

09 Dec 2013 15:28:07
There is a huge amount of negativity around this site and it has been here ever since the summer transfer window. Now, I agree that it wasn't a good window for us, but I also think Moyes wanted to ensure that HE knew which players in our squad HE wanted and didn't want, and also feel he needed time to properly pinpoint the exact players HE wanted to bring in. Let's face it, it is his head on the chopping block if signings etc don't work and he fails.

He is getting a lot of stick at the minute around here, and I am not going to say that people should hide their feelings if they are spending their hard earned money and feel they aren't getting value for that money. But, we are 15 league games into his Manchester United career and to be calling for his sacking already is very premature. Let's face it, the club will do what they want anyway so getting so down about it isn't going to do anyone any good. We need to give Moyes a chance to build his team. This team was left by SAF and was in need of big changes and he will only now be sure of who HE wants to keep/move on. For me, I'm happy to give him/the club the next 2 transfer windows and see where we are after that.

Before people come on again shouting and getting upset, I understand why people feel this way, but I also know that in a job as big as United, the manager needs support and a but of time. Replacing SAF was always going to be hugely difficult and anyone coming in would have found it difficult, especially being left with Woodward in charge of signings last summer. We know Moyes fancied bringing in a few players in the summer but it didn't happen for various reasons, Fellaini was a panic purchase by Woodward, I believe, as no signings at all would have looked even worse. I think Fellaini was a bit down on Moyes list of priorities but as all else failed, we were left with him or nothing pretty much.

He is under great pressure from supporters and the media at the moment and I feel that it is affecting both him and the team. I don't think anyone in Uniteds hierarchy are putting any pressure on though, as I'm sure they expected a bumpy ride at first. He needs his strongest first team back fast to get a few results and a bit of confidence. He also, I think, needs a couple of fresh faces in January if at all possible and just as important would be to ship out some deadwood i.e. Young, Anderson, Nani if possible, to show a ruthless side, but it won't be an easy window.

There are no guarantees that he will succeed, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt for now, as to get rid this quick would look very desperate and wouldn't help us I don't think. If, after the next couple of windows, we are still left with the deadwood and no real quality signings then I will no doubt be feeling the way a lot are now, but this, for me, is much too early. In a way, the way we are playing may aid Moyes in getting the funds he needs to build a quality team. It is evident to the whole world now, that we simply aren't good enough and that it was SAF who, amazingly, managed to drag an average first 11 to the premier league title last year, along with the poor showing of our rivals. I don't think the owners, if they were ever doing so, can hide from this fact and must now put there short arms into there very deep pockets.

We shall see.

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09 Dec 2013 18:25:15
It's odd that you say, "It is evident to the whole world now, that we simply aren't good enough" when you tipped that very team to win the title.

Not sure how you worked that one out if I'm honest.

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I've not tipped United for the title all season as any regular on here will confirm i'm sure. If you are going to bother coming on, at least know what you are talking about. I did say in the summer that if we adressed the areas that need strengthening then we would but that didn't happen. You can go away again now.

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There's nothing average on the gea, Raphael, vidic, carrick, van presie, Rooney, kagawa, jones. Most of these will walk in any team.
Our midfield and wingers are well below average but the rest of the team is strong.
But fergie managed to get the team to play as a team, he also managed to ensure they turned up every week with hunger.
Moyes does not have these qualities, and there is your problem. And that's why he will never succeed at United.

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Nomidfield, I agree that DeGea, Van Persie, Kagawa and Rooney (when he decides to be) are top quality. Rafael can be too but defensively isn't the best, Carrick is getting past his best and the same goes for Vidic. Jones could be a top CB in years to come but he isn't a CM player for me. Only the first four I mentioned would walk into most teams, the others wouldn't either because they haven't reached their full potential or because they are on the way down.

If you have a team with only 4 top quality players then I would call that an average team personally. Those 4 alone can't carry the other 7 players, who aren't yet experienced enough or are no longer at the top of their game, especially when they aren't even playing due to injury. When a team has players like Nani, Young, Valencia, Cleverley, Evans, Evra(defensively) then you are going to struggle without the magic of SAF pulling the strings.

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09 Dec 2013 15:16:35
I keep reading on here that our fans are spoilt as some sort of excuse for moyes, I've been going to old trafford since 1979, I've seen the good and the bad, now as far as i'm concerned being a mufc fan is about watching exciting attacking football and to hell with the consequences, if we were playing decent football and we could see a direction and an actual plan as to what sort of game we are going to be playing then the defeats wouldn't be as bad but we arent, its bad football, where we seem to be intent on not getting beat rather than trying all out for a win, we seem to be getting worse which is a worry, I really hope moyes can turn it around but the whispers comin out of carrington seem to be negative towards him, I think he needs two massive windows and a continental number two.

Now off to the xmas markets in town.

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Enjoy the Gluwhein

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Drown your sorrows and I agree with your post.

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09 Dec 2013 12:23:40
GCU,

Below you have a list of managers and you ask what they win before they got a "big" job. Aside from Pellegrini and Wegner, all of the managers you have mentioned have one thing in common, they are very young. Yet these young managers, aside from Rodgers, have another thing in common: despite their young age they have all won trophies. Klopp and Blanc have won league titles and domestics cups, Villas-Boas has won the league, the cup and the UEFA cup, and Pep has won everything.

Wenger is a different story. It was obvious that the club didn't have the cash and Arsenal have struggled. There were questions over his future and I think Arsenal fans will be the first to admit that they wondered if he is still the right man. But he has a winning pedigree on his side and this ultimately saved him. Rodgers has been faced with a very different challenge, a CL spot, and he has made big strides to it so far this year. Pellegrini was a risk for City. However, because of his experience and the job he did at Malaga, they decided to move for him.

Moyes is not a young manager, he has almost been a manager for 15 years. In his 15 years he has never won a major trophy. He has never been considered for a big job. And now that he has been given his, unwarranted, shot at a big club, he has been woeful.

As I have said to you numerous times, you are very good at finding excuses for Moyes but have yet to identify a single positive change he has implemented in 5 months. You have yet to point to one thing that Moyes has started that will improve the club in the future. In fact, Moyes has again today, for the second time in a week, claimed that he has changed very little from last season. He is not talking like a man making changes or helping a club make a transition, he looks like a man desperately trying to divert responsibility away from himself in an attempt to save his hide.

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Klopp never won anything before he moved to Dortmund from a league below with Mainz and it took him 2 years to win something with Dortmund so your argument is flawed. However I think Moyes is a good manager just not the right manager for us.

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09 Dec 2013 13:27:59
Danny, first off Moyes was not in my top 5. He has made some big mistakes. He wasn't backed in the transfer market. I will i'd one positive though and that is that he is starting to overhaul the scouting system. Frankly we've had a horror show in the market over the last few years and a lot of this is down to poor scouting. I'm not going to mention names we all know who they are. But for me Martin Ferguson was useless and only one reason he had a job. Scouting was in dire need of a change. I also think he's looking at the youth set up as well, which also needs a shake up. The back room staff was a mistake, apart from Phelan, who everyone on here wanted gone. Whether we like Moyes or not we are stuck with him now till May at a minimum so constantly whinging about it isn't going to change anything.

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When Klopp took over Dortmund they had finished 13th in the league. They were no longer a big club, they didn't have much money and they were seriously struggling. In a short few years Klopp brought them back to the top of German football. Moyes has taken over the league champions and people are already talking about him needing 2 years to secure CL football.

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Winston, Danny's argument is not flawed at all.
You are right up to an extent about Klopp, but he promoted Mainz and achieved that success with them.
More importantly, Klopp went from Mainz to Dortmund. They are a big club with a fantastic fanbase, but they are NOT United!
I think this is where the debate lies. Moyes went from a club where he won no trophies, to managing United, which is one of the top four clubs in the world! How can this be right?
I am in business, and I would not recruit a sales manager unless he had the expertise and a proven track record of securing business. So what has Moyes done to deserve being given one, if not the most important job in club football?
If you can give us one good reason, then we are open to suggestions!

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MrE

I'm not sure our scouting system is that poor. We regularly targeted top class players (for example, Ozil, Hazard and Sneijder). The bigger problem seems to be that we don't have the cash to sign top class players. As I have said before, Moyes's appointment doesn't change this, and players will be far less likely to want to play for Moyes than SAF. Moyes did a decent job in finding solid players for Everton, but he has rarely signed players of United's standards. All this was evident during the summer.

On youth development, I don't see that many problems with the quality of our young players. There will never be another class of 92, but we have had talent players at youth level. The problem seems to be that our youth stars are not making the leap to first team. Sadly our two best youth players have left the club for different reasons. I think that we do need to look at why our young players are struggling to break into the first team, but Moyes is not the man to do it. You can count the players who made the jump from youth team to first team at Everton under Moyes on one hand. This is the manager who ruined Rodwell with his prehistoric training and refused to give a player of Barkley's quality a decent run.

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Nomidfield
Why do you think fergy recommended moyes.
Also United are 8 points behind Chelsea 7 behind city.
If you look at our last 4 games 2:2 Cardiff, 2:2 spurs, 1:0 Everton1:0 Newcastle
how many more points do you think we would of picked up with a fully fit Carrick and rvp also if moyes had got some of the players he wanted in the summer say fabergas and Baines.

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Fergus was a poor judge of people generally, as opposed to players' skill-sets and attributes where he was clearly outstanding. The appointment of his brother as Chief Scout, his son as agent, his relationship with certain racing folk, his personal disposition to over trust some others for a variety of reasons (Bebe) all spring to mind.

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Danny

Guardiola won nothing until the Barca job and based on your argument should not have been considered or worthy of taking the job at Barca, who some might say is even a bigger club than United. He also had very little managerial experience so he would be even less qualified than moyes if we go by your reasoning.

You seem to keep going on about I making excuses for moyes, which is complete bs, I am just a lot more objective than you and think we were in for some disruption given the change and the injuries to key players could not happened at a worst time given the transition and has been difference of winning 1-0 to losing 1-0 and our league position.

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If we go by my reasoning. None of the managers you listed have gone 15 years without a trophy. That is my reasoning. Moyes is an experienced manager who has never won anything and never even been considered for another top job.

You are not being in any way objective. Your line of argument is to make a sweeping statement, e.g. Moyes is doing as well as any other manager would do with this squad, and then you fail to support it with any evidence.

All you have done the last few days is to make constant, unsubstantiated, excuses.

It isn't Moyes's fault because the squad is rubbish.
It isn't his fault because of injuries.
It isn't his fault because his, alleged, changes will take time.
It isn't his fault because the transition was always going to be difficult.
It isn't his fault because he couldn't land his targets.

The 'objective' facts are that we won the league last season, and now after 15 games we are 9th and have nearly dropped as many points as we did in the entirety of last season. Yes, other teams have improved. Yes, the team flattered. And yes, some players have probably gone a season too far without retiring. But the fact remains that we have played far far below our ability this year. Moyes spent a huge sum of money on a player that he seems unable to accommodate. And, most importantly we seem to be getting worse as the season progresses.

Nobody was expecting Fergie's successor to build a new team in 5 months, but some evidence of positive change and improvement in performance should be a pre-requisite for any job. The fact of the matter is that not one person has been able to point to any identifiable positive result of Moyes's appointment, and all they can do is say we have to wait and see while dismissing criticism as ridiculous.

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09 Dec 2013 18:35:13
Danny I disagree, Hazard, Ozil etc were all stand out players. How many signings since 2007 would you say were a success? What qualifications did fergies brother have to be head scout? Do you think he did a good job as head scout?

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No name.

Nobody complained about our scouting network until the Glazers took over. We broke the transfer record regularly during the 90s and early 00s, and always seemed capable of bringing top class replacements for our older players.

It was always a bit embarrassing that Fergie's brother was head scout (not to mention his son's agency), and we could have almost certainly hired a better head scout if it weren't for the nepotism. The fact of the matter is, however, that we were still looking at top quality players since the Glazers took over. The difference is that we are no longer able to compete financially at the top end of the market. So instead of Ozil we get Kagawa, and instead of Hazard we get Zaha. These aren't bad players, but the are second choices and not yet at the top level.

This hasn't changed under Moyes. This summer we targeted Cesc but ended up with Fellaini. For Moyes's scouting network to bring big changes he would need to be able to unearth cut price gems. He wasn't able to do this at Everton, so I see no reason why he can at United. There is apparently a man living in North Rhine-Westphalia who is quite good at it though.

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Jred, I'm not sure how many points we would have picked up, but all the other teams have injuries, so let's not use this as an excuse, it is hypothetical how many points we would have got.
But do you honestly think we would have beaten these teams if carrick or the others had been fit? The team is playing slow, boring, predictable football and that hasn't changed since moyes set foot in this place.
I know a few fans who are season tickets and none are going to the match tomorrow as they've had enough of this rubbish football and decided to vote with their feet. So moyes better buck up his ideas.

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Danny, hear hear. I'm getting tired of all the stupid excuses people are making for Moyes. The man is useless and the sooner the glazers act the better.
Klopp seems to be able to get them all at very reasonable prices, that is a sign of a good manager.
As I said before, gundogan and feud cost £15m between them, a full£12.5m less than our midfield sensation, fellaini!

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{Ed002's Note - You think the managers negotiate the transfers?}

Nomidfield
The team was playing boring football last year but Carrick run the cm and rvp put the ball in the net

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I think some people on here genuinely do, Ed. That's the scary thing. Ah well, if it helps them back up their arguments.

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09 Dec 2013 12:00:08
Morning all,

Not posted for a while, as unfortunately I've not had anything genuinely positive to say, and as the old saying goes - if you've nothing positive to say, don't bother saying anything! However, coming away from Old Trafford on Wednesday and again on Saturday, feeling frustrated, depressed and generally disappointed - I had a moment of clarity.

Back in 1992, after being beat to the title by Leeds United, Sir Alex Ferguson pulled off what I believe to the most single influential signing of his entire career. This single signing alone unified an entire team collectively, and his presence raised everyone's game by at least 10%. I'm of course talking about Eric Cantona. The signing of Eric, single-handedly escalated our team to the next level, and in turn, started what was to become our most successful period in the clubs long history. When Eric unfortunately retired, Sir Alex kept the momentum flowing by introducing a crop of talented, youth players, whose names I do not need to state. Each of them when interviewed even today, talk about the influence that Eric had on them, both on and off the pitch. The signing of Eric Cantona proved to be a catalyst for the next 20 years of domestic dominance.

Back to the present, and as things stand, there's a lot of talk about wholesale changes within the squad, discussions about the need of 4-5 new players, etc. etc. to which I agree in some degree (considering the age of some members in our squad). However personally I can't help but feel, that what Moyes needs right now, is his 'Eric Cantona'. A single player who can come in, and rejuvenate the entire squad simply with his presence alone.

Don't believe it's possible in today's footballing world?. Two words; Mesut Ozil.

His impact on the current Arsenal team is very similar to the impact Eric had on ours back in 1992-93. Players around him are playing with a new lease of life. Players who last season were being ridiculed by the Arsenal fans, are currently having the season of their lives (Ramsey, Giroud, etc.). This is the kind of impact, a single player (the right player!) can have on a squad.

As a consequence, I'm going to go against the grain slightly to the general consensus, and say that I don't think wholesale changes are needed. We have the basis of a good, talented young squad who at the moment need a single spark to ignite. I'll also state that I don't know who this mystery single player might be - but I'm sure you'll have your own opinions!

Thanks for reading.

WF Red Devil

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If by miracle Moyes was to leave who would people like to see take the reigns.My first choice would of been Klopp, no chance of Guardiola or Mourinho now so who else is there.The only other namr I can think of is Diego Simeone.Any thoughts. Blackpool Red

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I couldn't agree more with the original post. This was something that I illuded to the other day. I was shot down for it but Sneijder still has the skill set to do it. He is an experiences head, he's done it all before, he has an incredible range of passing and an eye for goal. I'm sure he would like a challenge at a top team again instead of being stuck in Turkey. Still worth a move in my opinion although he is not the be all and end all obviously.

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Klopp will be an absolute hit at United. He is used to picking up talent on the cheap and turning them into superstars. He has won and guided an unfancied club to nearly winning the CL.
He playes a modern attractive, high tempo, attacking brand of football in line with what we are used at United. Not the total and utter rubbish that we are being served under Moyes.
If Klopp comes, I'm sure he will want to briing his backroom staff, scouts etc. And I am all for that, as Phil Neville and Ryan Giggs are not experienced coaches!
I think if Klopp comes and we get OGS to work as his no.2 then we will have an unbeatable combination.
Here is hoping and dreaming that one day, soon, this will happen! Because, anyon who thinks Moyes is suddenly going to change from a complete average manager who has won absolutely nothing into a multiple winner is frankly barking up the wrong tree!

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09 Dec 2013 14:17:23
Fresh! Although it may be an unpopular choice, I have to completely agree with you. There is absolutely no doubting his technical ability, experience and overall quality. At 29, he still has the ability to be a match winner, and will undoubtedly give the squad a lift it so desperately requires - for a relatively reasonable price I would assume.

The only potential doubt would be Sneijder himself, and whether he has the hunger. At the moment, he's a comfortable big fish in a relatively medium sized pond. Does he have the hunger to step back up to the top and really stamp his mark back into top flight European football (no disrespect to the Turkish league of course). If he feels like he's got a point to prove, to those in Italy and Spain, who reportedly ridiculed him when he made his move to Turkey, then a Sneijder + Manchester United might just be the perfect marriage for both parties.

WF Red Devil

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Any top player has the hunger for top level football and the hunt of trophies. Sneijder has played in Holland, Turkey, Italy and Spain - the big one that is missing off of his CV is England. We could slot him into the midfield as the most forward of a 3 with Carrick & Fellaini behind and he could pull the strings. We then have RVP, Rooney and any from Welbeck to Januzaj for the third striking birth.

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Why not just play kagawa were he should be played and give him a decent run instead of keep playing him out of position

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I agree entirely WF.
We arnet suddenly the worst team in the world.
Last year we won the league easily and were close to knocking rm out of champs league.
Its bad but I like you believe we are just missing that spark that one world class centre mid could give us. Then everybody else would raise their game. Confidence is everything in football.
Then we can slowly make changes elsewhere over time. For now the best centre mid money can buy is a must. Question is who?

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If you thought we played well last year, champions or not you must of been watching different games than me

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09 Dec 2013 11:25:05
Ed 002 - Since you are about, I would like to know your view on something. You may be least interested in this but I am sure you will have an opinion to share. I have never seen you speak on this, so it might be interesting for me and a lot of other posters here. What is your take on what's happening at United and the future perspective. Yes there has been a managerial change and we do not have a divine right to win. But have things been handled well so far? A downward spiral is probably a part and parcel of a club's lifecylce, but do you think people at the helm have turned blind eye to it? What about Woodward and the Glazers? Appreciate your response in advance.

Deeps.

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{Ed002's Note - As you say there has been a change of manager and obviously nobody will be hapy with the results. The team will get a major refresh over the next couple of years as many of the players have grown old together as they have been at the club for so long. The same happened with Chelsea and it is not out of the question that results may also suffer for a while. It'll be fine in the end, I am sure.}

Thanks Ed, I have seen you being complimentary of FSG and the 'Pool owners, thought I would ask how do you rate our owners on a similar context?

Deeps.

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{Ed002's Note - The owners are businessmen looking to boost the value of their asset. They have supported the previous manager in the transfer market and that has helped bring success - which in itself brings additional sponsorship etc.. I don't see a problem.}

09 Dec 2013 11:10:36
Sean Goss is really starting to look the part in the u18's.
A year younger than Pearson & also leaps above Tunnicliffe in talent.

Do we have a Carrick replacement in our mits.
Carrick has signed a 2.5yr contract recently.

I believe these older players should be coaching & helping the youth through now.

Jones & M.Keane - Ferdinand & Vidic
Januzaj & Zaha - Giggs
Goss & Pearson - Carrick & Butt/ short & long passing & intercepting the ball, receiving the ball
Powell & Lingard - Scholes/ vision, space, shooting positions
Varela & Blackett - Evra/ overlaps, crosses, quick 1-2's
W.Keane & Henriquez - RVP/hold up play & finishing

The old guard really has to motivate & pass on their experience, tactics & game play to our youth.

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09 Dec 2013 10:54:51
Good Morning Everybody,

I haven't posted on here since last May, as I jacked my season ticket in this year for one reason or another. I know I can't give as realistic an opinion as a paying fan, because now I am just a television ball watcher. I am trying not to over-react to the last 4 games, which I felt were our chance to really climb the table, but I suppose its difficult not too when you have just seen us beaten twice at home. The thing people have to realise is the table doesn't lie, the two teams that beat us are above us and rightly so with what I saw (I actually went to the Everton game)

For what it is worth this is the way I see it. Firstly I thing there have been a lot of arrogance mixed in with naiveté following the SAF departure. let's not forget the last overhaul we had managerially was 1986. The game has change beyond recognition. Ron Atkinson and Mick Brown left SAF and Archie Knox came in. The overhaul in staff now is colossal by comparison.

Secondly, the timing was abysmal, leaving us as a rudderless ship between May and July was a joke. The top teams did all their business in this period and now look at the state we are in. Do I really need to go over the summer transfer window. I think Moyes tried to be cute by signing Felliani and he plays him out of position believing he could do a job there. Well we all know its blew up in his face big style. Felliani is a big awkward bully who should play just behind the front one or two making life difficult for centre halves like he did at Everton. He will probably become useful to us eventually if employed in his more effective role.

Moyes has had no luck with injuries really. RVP starting to get injured regularly, Rooney head injury, Carrick out for a long period. Vidic out early on. This coupled with ageing players who once had quality that has been left to him, hasn't helped the poor bloke much has it. Not to mention the deadwood, Anderson, Nani etc.

This guy is going to need time and backing and I think the rot started long before he arrived so to make him a scapegoat or fall guy is a bit unfair. Gradually he is going to need a long overhaul process to bring his own players in who respect him for doing that. SAF had his problems let's not forget with the likes of McGrath, Whiteside and yes even Robson when he came, they were all on the sauce as we know. I think the Glazers will give him all the time he needs and they will have to back him but I don't think it will be to extent of the Oil clubs

This is a new era. Moyes will probably have to start like Ferguson bringing in dependable if not superstar players in the mould of Donaghy, Anderson (viv that is) Jim Leighton, etc to form a solid base to build on. The problem we have is whether the likes of RVP, Rooney and DeGea (the really only World class players we have) will wait around to help us out. We will see I suppose. If they go we will just have to deal with it.

Yeah so its going to be ugly and we all knew that would come at some stage. The camera panning around the ground close to the final whistle on Saturday showed not one angry face. So we all knew these days were not far away. Its going to be a very intriguing period this, let's see who the real fans are now and let's do as that bloke said and get behind this manager. Mistakes were made a plenty before he arrived

Mike

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{Ed002's Note - You need to sign up and register Mike.}

Mike

Agree apart from the final part - SAF told us we had to support and get behind our new manager. Our owners and Woodward didn't get behind & support Moyes though, did they?

The fans will back him if we see that the club is moving in the right direction. Right now, it certainly doesn't look that way and it's for several reasons. We've gone over all these reasons but the truth is, the team needs a serious injection of world-class talent in a few areas.

Moyes said this himself. So if SAF and the owners want us to show true support and give Moyes time, they need to prove to us it's going to be worth it in the end by opening the chequebook.

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09 Dec 2013 10:16:55
Shappy - hope you got your cake. Way to much sugar for me yesterday.

Three great players across the middle and we'd be contenders. The problem is no one will be available in January. and would they want to play for Moyes anyway? In a rebuilding program, top players are going to have to believe in the coach to want to play for a team, especiallly if it has not qualified for the Champions League. This is what concerns me. We have owners who really don't care about the club, the money is far more important. Let's hope other members of the Board like SAF and Gill, will be able to swallow their pride and admit their mistake. Unfortunately, cake tastes better than pride - so I think not.

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09 Dec 2013 10:01:00
One of the aspects of Moyes' managerial reign that not many seem to comment on is how dumb he seems at times.

For one, even taken out of context, he referred to his star player as side kick. That's a player we seem to be intent on convincing to stay. That's a huge no.

Also, in the summer transfer window, he sounded pretty intent on bringing some players in, which seems to indicate his very limited trust in the squad, which seem to reciprocate the feeling. you want to bring your own players, fine, just don't tell the world the players are not good enough.

And his bit about lacking world class players, it doesn't do the likes of Vidic, Rafael, Evans, DDG, Evra, Valencia, Nani ( who just got a huge show of faith by being offered a new contract ), Chicharito and Kagawa much good. The same players who SAF constantly praised and seemed to give him their all are hardly breaking legs trying to fight for the team under Moyes.

And the fact that he keeps saying he's happy with some results, like the draws against cardiff and Tottenham. SAF would blame everything from the FA to FIFA to the referees to the pitch to the opposing fans to president Obama and the queen of England before blaming his team. He takes the hit and protects his players from the media, without ever being satisfied with a sub par performance.

He also told the media that Kagawa ate too much and had to get his stomach pumped. Is there a better way to ridicule a struggling player?

And the last bit, which is in my opinion the worst, is he keeps mentioning his experiences with Everton and Preston North End like it's some sort of unrivaled achievement. Fact is fans know he managed Everton and Preston North End, which is why they lack any sort of faith in him to replace the man who rebuilt the club and won it all.

Mourinho doesn't keep mentioning what he learned at Madrid, chelsea, Milan and Porto where he won 2 trebles. And that's a hell of a lot more impressive than managing Everton and not winning once against a top 4 club on their ground.

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He did not refer to his star player as a side kick mate, that has been cleared up many times on here, don't believe everything you read in the press.

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I believe it was taken out of context, and by that he means his replacement as a number 9 in case of injury, but as every man and his dog know, you have to watch your words in the premier league

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09 Dec 2013 09:57:23
Interesting and decent article

In the summer of 2009, Manchester United had the chance to create a dynasty. They had just won the league for the third year in a row, and reached their second Champions League final in succession. A team of kids had taken Everton to penalties in the FA Cup semi-final, demonstrating the depth of talent percolating the senior squad.

Sure, they had been well beaten in the Champions League final by Barcelona, and sold Cristiano Ronaldo days later. But Sir Alex Ferguson still had a core of world-class players in Wayne Rooney, Nemanja Vidic and Rio Ferdinand. The £80m he received for Ronaldo, coupled with the huge sums being generated through TV and gate receipts, could have funded four or five marquee signings, to address any weaknesses in the squad and establish United as Europe's premier club for years.

What happened? Ferguson replaced Ronaldo with Antonio Valencia, which is a bit like replacing a Ferrari with a Volkswagen Polo. United also brought in a has-been in Michael Owen, and a never-would-be in Gabriel Obertan. Less than a quarter of the Ronaldo fee was spent, the rest of the money poured into the Glazers' debts. The chance to forge a lasting dominance in Europe was squandered.

The remainder of Ferguson's reign followed a similar pattern. United were able to lure Robin Van Persie, who preferred the glamour of Old Trafford to the greater riches offered elsewhere. But other big names such as Mesut Ozil and Wesley Sneijder slipped the Old Trafford net, the club's debt-ridden owners unable, or unwilling, to pay the going rate. Paul Scholes was dragged from retirement in desperation as the squad's world-class core began to age. Meanwhile Paul Pogba, United's brightest young talent, left because he felt the club's contract offer was derisory.

Since that meeting with Barcelona of 2009, United have spent £195m, which may seem impressive in isolation. But compare it with their rivals: over the same period Bayern Munich have spent £240m, Chelsea £393m, Real Madrid £529m and Manchester City £530m. That United have remained pre-eminent in England, and competitive in Europe, while spending so much less than their rivals is testament to Ferguson's managerial genius.

David Moyes has yet to display any such genius during his time at United. Indeed some of his decisions, such as the dismissal of Rene Muelensteen, appear highly questionable. Yet the paucity of United's squad is a problem which long predates his arrival. While Moyes may be at least partly culpable for the dithering over Thiago Alcantara, the ludicrous pursuit of Cesc Fabregas and the sudden volte face over Ander Herrera, he was hardly helped by Edward Woodward, the corporate stooge who was tasked by the Glazers with running the club.

The decision to appoint Woodward, a marketing man without any top-level football experience, demonstrated the commercial obsession of those running the club. After the Everton defeat, he attempted to reassure fans by saying "if you fight hard and just fail, people will still watch you on television, still turn up and buy shirts." Crass, complacent and criminally naïve: it summed up the owners' approach perfectly.

If United continue to struggle it will be Moyes who goes, while Woodward, and the Glazers who employ him, remain in control. Yet their wrong-headed penny-pinching is the root cause of United's current malaise and it's hard to think of any other manager who would be doing better.

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Shahram

Please don't post articles like these, its hard to contain the hate after reading stuff like this.This Woodpecker person sometimes brings me close to my dark side. While people may talk about Moyes' inadequacies and may be rightly so, this is Ed Woodward's buffoonery that has brought us where we are.

The worst part is, he has actually done his job well and made the Glazer's proud. The bit about shirt sales is so bad, I don't have words to express it. Kind of justifies Ed 002's comment on United's worldwide appeal not going for a toss anytime soon. Bad times buddy if this clown remains at the helm.

Deeps.

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Perfectly stated. And the only two players who cost in excess of 20m were RVP and Fellaini, which speaks to the quantity not quality approach we have been employing since the sale of Ronaldo. Much of the remaining money has been on investments in youngsters for the future, or, too often, squandered on mediocrity.

SAF may not have been the most brilliant tactician, but until the buying restrictions imposed by the extreme debt, he had the ability to develop youngsters who were able to execute his strategy, and enough money at his disposal to purchase top quality players to fill in all the gaps.

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Sorry Deeps

I just thought it was quite a balanced article in terms putting things into context. In Todays's football spending money and success go hand in hand and unless you get lucky like the class of 92, you just need to spend at the top level to stay with the big teams.

On that point, I think Southampton is going through a purple patch of producing very good youngsters.

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09 Dec 2013 09:17:35
Sorry just can't buy in to this squad is not good enough brigade though they are certainly under performing.
We have 3 top strikers 2 world class, a world class goalie. Top RB along with 4 young English internationals who now know what it takes to win the league. Not to mention a experience international midfielder along with other internationals
End of last season we all knew we needed a LB CB and 2 CM. given that Moyes was SAF choice and the paper reported that Moyes knew of his appointment before his official start date he had 4 months to identify and obtain those players. We all know what happened nextvbut still spent 27.5 million on a CM a player Moyes knew v well.
So we are only 3 players short of a squad able to retain the title.
Fast forward to today given 4 months to prepare for the start of the season with the bases of a title winning squad to work with. Who is to blame for our mid table position and performances?

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09 Dec 2013 09:15:02
Ironic isn't it, now we are being linked everywhere to Strootman who we could of had for £17 million in the summer and I think under SAF, we would of. I can't see him coming now that Roma are doing so well. This is generally the problem, the clubs that most of our targets are at are doing so well so pricing them away will be tough.

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We are not looking at Strootman but someone else at Roma mate. The papers will link us to about 15 players a day.

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Pjanjic I imagine.

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09 Dec 2013 09:13:30
A Manchester United fan over here (Kenya ) killed himself after last weekend's loss to Newcastle. Pretty sad, . Stupid, but sad.

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09 Dec 2013 08:32:35
So Moyes is happy with our current squad and is not planning to buy another player in Jan. Not surprised at all a bit!

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What do you expect him to say they are all she*p? He knows there's dross that needs to go

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Where do people come out with such rubbish from? Even if moyes has said this (which he hasn't) you would still need to take it with a pinch of salt.

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Well, no manager would be happy with this squad. Moyes himself has said we're short of several world-class players, so he knows the fans know this too.

It's just as suspected - the window is too difficult for buying clubs and Woodward's an arse for thinking we'd buy his claims that January is when we'd be busiest.

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09 Dec 2013 04:47:05
Has anyone seen Moyes' latest comments? He goes on about not necessarily bringing in many players in January, and taking time over which players to bring in and Also the classic line of "united are always in for the best talent". I know he has to say this to not upset the current squad, but it smacks of what fergie said in the past few seasons.

I'm sincerely worries about where the club is at the moment. Are the glayzers really going to invest up to 100million?! Time will tell.

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Everytime he speaks I become despondent further! Ok I don't really want 'panic buys'! But the team needs reinforcing!

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Karl

He is not really saying anything different to what SAF was spouting season after season. The problem lies with the owners.

I am firmly behind Moyes and I don't believe kicking him when he is down is the best thing to do. But make no mistake, if he tries to dither and tows the Glazer line, he will have zero support. He is no SAF, won't get away with crap like this. No one is blind. If as posters like Red Sky and Danny say happens and we keep giving excuses in the transfer market, we should all be massively worried.

Deeps.

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I've said before, these next two windows come and go without world-class signings and the board/manager are in for a nasty, nasty shock. The fans won't stand for it because it would confirm everyone's worst fears.

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{Ed002's Note - Not another Facebook page coming?}

09 Dec 2013 02:18:06
hey guys.1st time poster. Am from Malaysia and been watching the EPL/BPL since its inception. One question for readers, watched Everton play under Moyes. but I've not seen even once he plays his tactics. I mean his own since he came in. Never saw him play a 442 when he was at Everton. Thoughts?

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Hello mte,

I Agree, I think its obvious Moyes sees our strength in the forwards, problem is he has never set up a team with their strength at the top end of the pitch.

I think it showed on Saturday how much he trusts our midfield, with Rooney out and rvp not fit it was a perfect chance to change that and flood the midfield, I thought he would, many on here thought he would but instead he continued with the rigid 442 he has played from the start. This is where I see a manager lost, to continue with the same idea's even thou they have failed us many times this season the latest 3 days before imo shows a man lost and looking for idea's.
I give it a few more games till we see Fellani in the number 10 role behind Rooney more frequently.

Im sure he will get time, but less so now if he is the right man for us. The players body language said a lot on Saturday and I feel the problems run a bit deeper than purely indifferent form causing indifferent performances, they looked like they had lost the fight, something we have not seen for a long time!

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09 Dec 2013 00:56:10
if i'm honest at the start of the season isaid wed get ayoung lad that wanted to come to us on a free transfer and whent to Monaco and wiggy is this realy what we have come down to now freebies or has beens god help us

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That's because he never had a decent striker, let alone 2

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09 Dec 2013 00:44:37
gds2 ilove your passion for the club but I've seen the club through the good times and the bad I've seen over the last few weeks you have dowts over moyes do you honestly think he should be given money to rebuild or do you think he will buy big hard working players who can whoof it up the pitch I think we should hurt the club as previously posted but that's my opinion

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I think we have made the decision to get Moyes in and we have to back him in the next 2 transfer windows. If this time next year we are still in the same position it can be deemed to be a failure.

He decided to give everybody a chance in the summer and none of the players he has given a chance to have shown they deserve to stay, so now he must be ruthless and remove the deadwood. Nobody, not even Moyes could have imagined it would be this bad, if the 2 1-0 defeats had been 2 1-0 wins look where we would be, its the fine lines that we just aren't quite getting on the right side of.

After Saturday I actually said we can't back Moyes anymore playing how we are, but I think we have to back him, get behind the lads and with a few wins watch the confidence come and hope for a massive improvement.

The whole 'hurting the club' thing doesn't work for me, I am a fan of the club and I would support us wherever we are in the league, I love going to the games and getting behind the lads, we have been spoilt to be so successful over the years, and building back up to winning the title again should be as exciting as the last few years anyway.

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GDS2

I don't buy into the 'being spoilt' thing mate - the fans pay their hard-earned money to go to these games, they aren't getting it for free, so they should feel entitled to seeing the richest club in the world at least use a nice portion of that income on improving a weakening team.

If anyone has been spoilt, it's the owners - they got the world's best football club without having to spend a penny of their own money and have been reaping the profits ever since.

The fans actually put money into this club.

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I am not saying that we are 'being spoilt' in that way, but you forget only one team can win the league every season and many other teams have a lot more expensive tickets than us to sell and have won nothing for years.

The fans are still turning up because they love the club. I think we have been spoilt by the success, the better the club is the higher the expectations. And when you have been THE top club for so long there is only one way that it can go, and that is down.

Agree wholeheartedly about the owners though, in that context they definitely have been spoilt.

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GDS2

Thing is mate, the spin doctors will use this against us if we aren't careful. If we start complaining about them not making signings, and we're met with a response of "You've been spoilt over the years, this squad won the league in 2013", would you be happy with that?

For me, the 'spoilt' thing is the same as a few other little gems spouted off by our spin doctors.

"We're Man United, we don't sign stars, we make them"

Funny how that little gem only came into play when we started to fail to sign said stars. We've had no problem with signing star players in the past, so this is not 'the Man United way'. It's a convenient line to deflect attention away from not spending away.

And the 'spoilt' thing will be the next line used as a rod to beat any fans who can see it for what is actually is - spin.

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