17 Jul 2014 12:31:37
Eds, with Gundogan looking like he will return from injury next month, is there any likelyhood of an attempt to bring him in to partner Herrera?
He seems like an ideal partner, clever and a good passer who likes to sit a bit deeper than Herrera, where he could protect the back four when Herrera goes forward.
{Ed002's Note - No.}
17 Jul 2014 20:37:19
Said with such hope-crushing finality ;)
Oh well, thanks for the answer anyway ed.
17 Jul 2014 20:38:43
I was honestly hoping that our interest in Nigel "Kung fu" de Jong would be higher than it appears to be, first time poster btw guys and oddly I don't have any connections or sources at old Trafford or carrington, don't live next to rooney and I don't look after Nicky butts Nan's cats when she goes to the seaside for the weekend, so everything I say will be opinion based :)
It would be good for us to have a pool of top class box to box midfielders to sign from. At the moment it seems we have had an interest in Enzo Perez (who I thought was very good in the world cup semi&final, ) and of course Vidal.
If we add a few more to that list, we might find prices dropping as their respective clubs realise they don't have the power to hold us to ransom. The possibility of a deal being struck increases the wider we are spread our net.
Gundogen is in that bracket and is a good target for me. U have to wander though will he be the same player with all those injuries he sustained? Its hard to say unless they let us do a medical on him before agreeing a fee.
We just signed Herrera, so I would think a more defensive option as both short term cover and long term replacement for Carrick would be more of a concern than another b2b.
Im not exactly sure, but I think Van Gaal's system accomodates 2 of these sorts of players. We have been trying to sign Vidal afterall, having already signed Herrera.
I think there's a deep playmaker, responsible for closing down in front of the back 4. His job is to be a defensive midfielder when out of possession, and a ball playing midfielder when in possession.
I think Herrera will fill that role.
Then there is a box to box player, who plays a very simple game. One two's always making themselves available for passes, - going up and down the pitch. De Jong was doing that role in the Netherlands team. If we get a world class player in this role, I think their responsability might be upgraded a bit. I think Vidal might have been targeted to play this role.
The third midfielder is an attacking midfielder and I think one of Rooney or Mata will play there. That was the reason we dropped out of the race for Toni Kroos if i'm not mistaken.
The Vidal speculation might have just been fiction, so I may be wrong, but I think we are still in the market for one of these box to box players.
I still wouldn't mind seeing Carvalho coming into our midfield. He looks like a very good option in front of the back 4. Reads the game well and his quick distribution would be ideal for players like Herrera and Mata. The only problem is the reported 37 mil price tag.
Herrera isn't a defensive midfielder though. He's more like a box to box player, and he definitely likes to come forward from central midfield and get involved in attacks. He's definitely also got the energy to get up and down the pitch.
At Bilbao he mainly played as a kind of box-to-box playmaker although he's also spent periods playing further up behind the striker as a number 10, but he's not as good there.
Personally I'm expecting Carrick or a new defensive mid hanging back and moving the ball around, Herrera or Vidal (if we get him) as box-to-box, Mata behind the striker/s
I only know what a poster on here explained about 6 weeks ago with respect to LVG's tactics. You may have seen the post aswell. He followed Dutch football for many years and seemed to know a lot about Van Gaal's system, which was explained in a long post.
When we signed Herrera I assumed he looked like a box to box player too, but after watching him I noticed his 2 main strengths seemed to be creativity and an ability to win possession. Even though he played higher up, his qualities will be wasted if he plays what the post described as a "limited" box to box position, in which the player makes himself available for passes and plays short one two's in triangles. There was also a deeper central midfield position according to the post, that required a creative player to do a lot of running off the ball, and to create when in possession.
Vidal is not a creative player. He dosen't play longer passes, through passes, or dictate tempo like a Xavi/Scholes. If it is true we are interested in Vidal, he would surely have to take the "limited, " box to box position, but would probably be given some freedom to be more expansive, given his ability. I would imagine that would involve him bursting into the box to score goals, and taking long shots when there are opportunties. that's the exact role he is currently playing at Juventus. He will not play as a deep creative player if he arrives.
It wouldn't surprise me to see Herrera rotated between box to box, and deep midfield, if we are not able to sign Vidal, or the likes of Enzo Perez. If one of the 2 come in, Herrera will have to move to the deeper position, or sit on the bench. I would be surprised if we paid 30m, while expecting to sign another player that will put him on the bench.
He's not disciplined enough.
The guy shielding the back four needs to position himself to intercept or block off passes, slow the opponents play and break the rythm and momentum of attacks. Not rush around chasing balls down and closing players down to put them under pressure and force mistakes.
That's what Fletcher used to do, but he wasn't expected to protect the back 4, that was Hargreaves or Carricks job.
I do know the post you are referring to, but I don't see why the number 8 role has to be a "simple" box-to-box role, unless that's the players he has.
He's used more technical or creative players in that sort of role before. In fact I think I even remember him using Ribiery to bring the ball forward out of central midfield on occasion when he was at Bayern
18 Jul 2014 09:41:20
I think this is a shout to Shappy on the Van Gaal tactics.
Personally I think Carrick was lined up for the holding roll until Strootman could be brought in.whether his injury changes things I don't know?
Personally I would have a 3 of Strootman, Vidal, Harera. would put doubt on 1 or 2 of Rooney/Mata/Kagawa as I don't see them as part of an attacking 3.
That said if Van gaal adopts the 442 diamond of Liverpool then there is scope to fit them in
Interesting summer ahhead
Your right about Strootman Brad. I think LVG rates him highly because he is a perfect fit for the holding role.
Based on the point Shappy was making, the idea is that the holding role in LVG's system is unusal.
If your a holding playmaker, u will have more industrious players in front for protection, and u will not have defensive responsabilities. Italian sides often do this. Pirlo behind De Rossi and Marchisio.
If you are a defensive midfielder, you clear things up at the back, and feed the ball simply to the attacking players.
LVG's use of the holding player is unusual because they are both the playmaker and the defensive midfielder. U can see why he favours Strootman. I expect to see Carrick in the role, because there is no other position for him, not because it suits him.
LVG wants a player like Strootman in the position, who has athletic qualities and the passing game. I believe Herrera will have been signed to play this role. His game is similar to Strootman. Physical, athletic & great passing ability.
Herrera can play box to box if needed, and Strootman has also spent much of his career as a box to box player. Herrera's best position in the system Shappy highlighted, will be the deep midfield role. Herrera is an obvious choice for that position just as Strootman is. It is also consistent with the idea that Vidal has been targeted for the other Midfield role.
I understand the system, it's more or less what I've been hoping we'd start using for the last few years.
I don't see the similarity between Herrera and strootman though. Strootman is a little slower, and has a better range of passing. Herrera is trickier, and likes to use shorter passing, flicks and one-two's as well as technical dribbling to take defenders out of the game and open space. He's also not as physically strong, although he does still yet stuck in.
Think along the lines of a less developed version of Iniesta, but who has the energy and tenacity to get stuck in defensively as well, and to get up and down the pitch like Roy Keane.
We'll have to wait and see, but if he is shoe-horned into the defensive role I will be very, very surprised, as well as dissapointed. The potential link-up of Herrera and Mata is mouth-watering.
Thome, please properly investigate before making comments. It dosent help people who come on the site to get a better idea about players. I incllude myself in that category. I don't make comments just to fit my personal theories. I watch the players and try to understand what their qualities are. I also read other posts like Shappy's, and take the time to understand the points they are making.
Strootman is either as fast, - and is probably faster, than Herrera. Herrera has good stamina and speed, but Strootman is a genuine athlete.
If you want to get an idea of Strootman's capacity to accelerate watch Strootman 2014 videos on youtube.
If you watch some of these videos, you'll also notice the box to box role Strootman features in. This is a player that LVG converted into his holding role player for the Netherlands, -LVG is a big fan of Strootman as we know and viewed him as a key part of his system in the Dutch national team.
Herrera is not the same type of player as Iniesta. That is fairly obvious and it is not down to a difference in quality. Iniesta is an out and out attacking midfielder. Herrera is as defensive minded, as he is attacking minded.
Herrera has changed position a lot in the Athletic team. When he plays higher up, he plays right midfield/wing, of a midfield 3. His role is not an as an attacking midfielder in this position. He services forward players, and wins possession.
It is not disimilar to Ji Sung Park in 2006-9, used as a defensive winger to counter Ronaldo's free role on the opposite wing, - or the right midfield position Gennaro Gattuso (a defensive midfielder) used to play for AC Milan.
If you still don't think Herrera can play deeper, something he actually did many times at Athletic, watch the Europa League game highlights of Herrera vs United, at Old Trafford.
Anyone can see these things by watching videos and highlights on youtube, which i'm sure we all do. Before posting comments such as "Herrera is faster than Strootman, " try to remember we are in the 21st century, and can all learn a lot about players with an internet connection.
YouTube videos aren't a great way to judge a player, they tend only to show the best moments. I expect anyone watching a YouTube highlights video of Nani would think they were looking at one of the world's very best players, but we know that's not true. I'm not judging by those, but I'm not just making stuff up to fit my opinion.
I usually watch mostly dutch and German football, in addition to EPL obviously, but ever since I got excited about Herrera (thanks partly to those misleading YouTube videos) last summer, I've tried to watch his games, because I always thought we'd go back in for him, and I've watched him a little over a dozen times this season, as well as watching older games from the season before. I haven't rewatched our games against them from Europe, but I seem to remember Javi Martinez playing the holding role, not Herrera.
I must admit I haven't watched Strootman this season, but in the Netherlands he always struck me as too slow over distances of 30 yards or more, and I worried he'd be too slow getting back and would be left behind by counter attacks if he came here (obviously not a problem if he takes Carricks role). Yes he gets moving quite quickly, that's not the same. Maybe I'm remembering him as slower than he is though, if so, my mistake.
When I mentioned Iniesta, I meant in the way he is happy receiving the ball in tight space, and having the control and technique to play or bring the ball out past his markers. Obviously Herrera is different in many ways, and yes that includes being very capable defensively (although I would dispute his being as defensively minded as he is attack minded).
I know he is capable of playing a defensive role, but he lacks discipline so he gives away too many fouls and leaves gaps by closing down too aggressively, so it's not his best position and he looks far more comfortable pressing and winning the ball higher up the pitch.
I'm not saying he can't play that role, just that it would be a waste of his attacking talent, and others could do it better.
After we payed a significant price for him, I don't want to see him wasted. Anderson was a bright attacking talent when he came to us, but after a few years of being forced into a defensive role he didn't fit he had lost his confidence, picked up too many injuries, seemed to lose interest, and started turning into the chubby party animal we have today.
I don't want the same to happen to Herrera.
If you watch player highlights from individual games, - that is every touch a player has in the course of a match, you will get a good idea of the type of position the player plays and what their qualities are. There are a dozen or so you can watch on Herrera.
I do not watch highlights showing goals and skills.