09 Dec 2013 12:23:40
GCU,

Below you have a list of managers and you ask what they win before they got a "big" job. Aside from Pellegrini and Wegner, all of the managers you have mentioned have one thing in common, they are very young. Yet these young managers, aside from Rodgers, have another thing in common: despite their young age they have all won trophies. Klopp and Blanc have won league titles and domestics cups, Villas-Boas has won the league, the cup and the UEFA cup, and Pep has won everything.

Wenger is a different story. It was obvious that the club didn't have the cash and Arsenal have struggled. There were questions over his future and I think Arsenal fans will be the first to admit that they wondered if he is still the right man. But he has a winning pedigree on his side and this ultimately saved him. Rodgers has been faced with a very different challenge, a CL spot, and he has made big strides to it so far this year. Pellegrini was a risk for City. However, because of his experience and the job he did at Malaga, they decided to move for him.

Moyes is not a young manager, he has almost been a manager for 15 years. In his 15 years he has never won a major trophy. He has never been considered for a big job. And now that he has been given his, unwarranted, shot at a big club, he has been woeful.

As I have said to you numerous times, you are very good at finding excuses for Moyes but have yet to identify a single positive change he has implemented in 5 months. You have yet to point to one thing that Moyes has started that will improve the club in the future. In fact, Moyes has again today, for the second time in a week, claimed that he has changed very little from last season. He is not talking like a man making changes or helping a club make a transition, he looks like a man desperately trying to divert responsibility away from himself in an attempt to save his hide.

1.) 09 Dec 2013
Klopp never won anything before he moved to Dortmund from a league below with Mainz and it took him 2 years to win something with Dortmund so your argument is flawed. However I think Moyes is a good manager just not the right manager for us.

2.) 09 Dec 2013
09 Dec 2013 13:27:59
Danny, first off Moyes was not in my top 5. He has made some big mistakes. He wasn't backed in the transfer market. I will i'd one positive though and that is that he is starting to overhaul the scouting system. Frankly we've had a horror show in the market over the last few years and a lot of this is down to poor scouting. I'm not going to mention names we all know who they are. But for me Martin Ferguson was useless and only one reason he had a job. Scouting was in dire need of a change. I also think he's looking at the youth set up as well, which also needs a shake up. The back room staff was a mistake, apart from Phelan, who everyone on here wanted gone. Whether we like Moyes or not we are stuck with him now till May at a minimum so constantly whinging about it isn't going to change anything.

3.) 09 Dec 2013
When Klopp took over Dortmund they had finished 13th in the league. They were no longer a big club, they didn't have much money and they were seriously struggling. In a short few years Klopp brought them back to the top of German football. Moyes has taken over the league champions and people are already talking about him needing 2 years to secure CL football.

4.) 09 Dec 2013
Winston, Danny's argument is not flawed at all.
You are right up to an extent about Klopp, but he promoted Mainz and achieved that success with them.
More importantly, Klopp went from Mainz to Dortmund. They are a big club with a fantastic fanbase, but they are NOT United!
I think this is where the debate lies. Moyes went from a club where he won no trophies, to managing United, which is one of the top four clubs in the world! How can this be right?
I am in business, and I would not recruit a sales manager unless he had the expertise and a proven track record of securing business. So what has Moyes done to deserve being given one, if not the most important job in club football?
If you can give us one good reason, then we are open to suggestions!

5.) 09 Dec 2013
MrE

I'm not sure our scouting system is that poor. We regularly targeted top class players (for example, Ozil, Hazard and Sneijder). The bigger problem seems to be that we don't have the cash to sign top class players. As I have said before, Moyes's appointment doesn't change this, and players will be far less likely to want to play for Moyes than SAF. Moyes did a decent job in finding solid players for Everton, but he has rarely signed players of United's standards. All this was evident during the summer.

On youth development, I don't see that many problems with the quality of our young players. There will never be another class of 92, but we have had talent players at youth level. The problem seems to be that our youth stars are not making the leap to first team. Sadly our two best youth players have left the club for different reasons. I think that we do need to look at why our young players are struggling to break into the first team, but Moyes is not the man to do it. You can count the players who made the jump from youth team to first team at Everton under Moyes on one hand. This is the manager who ruined Rodwell with his prehistoric training and refused to give a player of Barkley's quality a decent run.

6.) 09 Dec 2013
Nomidfield
Why do you think fergy recommended moyes.
Also United are 8 points behind Chelsea 7 behind city.
If you look at our last 4 games 2:2 Cardiff, 2:2 spurs, 1:0 Everton1:0 Newcastle
how many more points do you think we would of picked up with a fully fit Carrick and rvp also if moyes had got some of the players he wanted in the summer say fabergas and Baines.

7.) 09 Dec 2013
Fergus was a poor judge of people generally, as opposed to players' skill-sets and attributes where he was clearly outstanding. The appointment of his brother as Chief Scout, his son as agent, his relationship with certain racing folk, his personal disposition to over trust some others for a variety of reasons (Bebe) all spring to mind.

8.) 09 Dec 2013
Danny

Guardiola won nothing until the Barca job and based on your argument should not have been considered or worthy of taking the job at Barca, who some might say is even a bigger club than United. He also had very little managerial experience so he would be even less qualified than moyes if we go by your reasoning.

You seem to keep going on about I making excuses for moyes, which is complete bs, I am just a lot more objective than you and think we were in for some disruption given the change and the injuries to key players could not happened at a worst time given the transition and has been difference of winning 1-0 to losing 1-0 and our league position.

9.) 09 Dec 2013
If we go by my reasoning. None of the managers you listed have gone 15 years without a trophy. That is my reasoning. Moyes is an experienced manager who has never won anything and never even been considered for another top job.

You are not being in any way objective. Your line of argument is to make a sweeping statement, e.g. Moyes is doing as well as any other manager would do with this squad, and then you fail to support it with any evidence.

All you have done the last few days is to make constant, unsubstantiated, excuses.

It isn't Moyes's fault because the squad is rubbish.
It isn't his fault because of injuries.
It isn't his fault because his, alleged, changes will take time.
It isn't his fault because the transition was always going to be difficult.
It isn't his fault because he couldn't land his targets.

The 'objective' facts are that we won the league last season, and now after 15 games we are 9th and have nearly dropped as many points as we did in the entirety of last season. Yes, other teams have improved. Yes, the team flattered. And yes, some players have probably gone a season too far without retiring. But the fact remains that we have played far far below our ability this year. Moyes spent a huge sum of money on a player that he seems unable to accommodate. And, most importantly we seem to be getting worse as the season progresses.

Nobody was expecting Fergie's successor to build a new team in 5 months, but some evidence of positive change and improvement in performance should be a pre-requisite for any job. The fact of the matter is that not one person has been able to point to any identifiable positive result of Moyes's appointment, and all they can do is say we have to wait and see while dismissing criticism as ridiculous.

10.) 09 Dec 2013
09 Dec 2013 18:35:13
Danny I disagree, Hazard, Ozil etc were all stand out players. How many signings since 2007 would you say were a success? What qualifications did fergies brother have to be head scout? Do you think he did a good job as head scout?

11.) 09 Dec 2013
No name.

Nobody complained about our scouting network until the Glazers took over. We broke the transfer record regularly during the 90s and early 00s, and always seemed capable of bringing top class replacements for our older players.

It was always a bit embarrassing that Fergie's brother was head scout (not to mention his son's agency), and we could have almost certainly hired a better head scout if it weren't for the nepotism. The fact of the matter is, however, that we were still looking at top quality players since the Glazers took over. The difference is that we are no longer able to compete financially at the top end of the market. So instead of Ozil we get Kagawa, and instead of Hazard we get Zaha. These aren't bad players, but the are second choices and not yet at the top level.

This hasn't changed under Moyes. This summer we targeted Cesc but ended up with Fellaini. For Moyes's scouting network to bring big changes he would need to be able to unearth cut price gems. He wasn't able to do this at Everton, so I see no reason why he can at United. There is apparently a man living in North Rhine-Westphalia who is quite good at it though.

12.) 09 Dec 2013
Jred, I'm not sure how many points we would have picked up, but all the other teams have injuries, so let's not use this as an excuse, it is hypothetical how many points we would have got.
But do you honestly think we would have beaten these teams if carrick or the others had been fit? The team is playing slow, boring, predictable football and that hasn't changed since moyes set foot in this place.
I know a few fans who are season tickets and none are going to the match tomorrow as they've had enough of this rubbish football and decided to vote with their feet. So moyes better buck up his ideas.

13.) 09 Dec 2013
Danny, hear hear. I'm getting tired of all the stupid excuses people are making for Moyes. The man is useless and the sooner the glazers act the better.
Klopp seems to be able to get them all at very reasonable prices, that is a sign of a good manager.
As I said before, gundogan and feud cost £15m between them, a full£12.5m less than our midfield sensation, fellaini!

{Ed002's Note - You think the managers negotiate the transfers?}

14.) 09 Dec 2013
Nomidfield
The team was playing boring football last year but Carrick run the cm and rvp put the ball in the net

15.) 09 Dec 2013
I think some people on here genuinely do, Ed. That's the scary thing. Ah well, if it helps them back up their arguments.