15 Dec 2013 12:24:44
Great article in the Fail on Sunday today, by Gary Neville.

Hope some on here read it, and see how a proper red legend, and somebody who actually understands football at this level, sees our current situation with Moyes.

Like him, I can't understand how people, including posters I respect and like, like Shappy, are even discussing who our next manager is going to be, a third of the way into Moyes' first season.

The guy deserves a bit better than that, from fans who are supposed to be a bit classier than the rest of them.

1.) 15 Dec 2013
StevieK

Have not read it but can guess what he has said. There is no point to any logic and the crowd is fickle and looking for a hanging party. It is very hard for some people to accept the fact that we are not winning due to injuries to key players and loss of form to the fringe players and want to hang it on someone.

Read a stat today that RVP and Rooney have only played 8 of 24 games so far this season together and in those 8 we are undefeated.

If I was a betting man, I would bet that a lot of the current squad will be gone in the next 24 months before Moyes is gone.

BTW not the greatest bench today and no Kagawa or Vidic, hope they are not injured.

As usual have bet on us winning, needless to say it has been a bad bet most of the year :)

2.) 15 Dec 2013
Football has changed in the last 5 years. It is all about trophies and the CL money. It is now more than ever a results business. what's more the united way to win trophies and play attractive footballer or to have a manager in charge for 20 years. Its a RESULTS business its not "get on your high horse and support the team". I couldn't care who was manager as long as come May we are competing for the top honours.

3.) 15 Dec 2013
Steviek

I read Neville's article first thing this morning and disagree with it.

It is all very well playing the loyalty card if the manager has already demonstrated he has the skills and experience necessary to recover the position. The difference is that Moyes has come in and sacked back room staff who knew what it took to win. Moyes only knows Everton ways and is bringing that Everton mentality into what was a winning club.

Finally let me say that if we had say Klopp in charge and had had a similar start I can say that I would be 100 percent behind him, I would be agreeing with Neville because Klopp knows what it takes to be successful and would turn it round. Klopp would also have sold his vision of the future. My problem is that Moyes has never demonstrated any aspect of what is needed and yet I am being asked to support him. This is a dangerous time with an inexperienced manager and it is now a judgement call on whether he can get it right. Get that decision wrong and it will affect our future massively.

4.) 15 Dec 2013
Stevie, Fans' disappointment in Moyes signing in the first place is not to be under estimated.

Look at when we bought Valencia. He was a fantastic player for Wigan and played very well for us pre injury, but fans were always a bit disappointed not because of his own shortcomings, but because he replaced a much greater player.

The same reasoning comes here. I believe Moyes is a very good manager, but he's not Fergie good. And unfortunately for him, he is going to be judged in comparison.

Our bad results so far have only raised the volume of their worries.

I honestly believe had it been Mourinho or Klopp having such bad results, they would have been given more of a chance

5.) 15 Dec 2013
I know, Mick.

So many on here wanting Mourinho. He came back to a club he knew inside out, and splashed a few quid, but he's hardly set the world alight.

it's only because of Utd's difficulties, that Mourinho's relatively poor start is being overlooked.

6.) 15 Dec 2013
Red Man, you're being asked to support him because he's the new manager of Man Utd. Full stop. I think some things are more important than results, and our club knowing how to treat it's own, is one of those things.

7.) 15 Dec 2013
Red Man and Mick1 are spot on. Most peoples issue with Moyes appointment is he has never won anything or appropriate European experience to manage United.

I do hope he can come good in time but whether he gets the time is another thing. We may be able to cope with missing out on Top 4 one season but certainly not twice.

If Klopp, Mourinho or Ancelotti had the same start there simply would not be the same level of concern as they are all proven winners with the demonstrable calibre to manage United. Doesn't matter how you dress it up, Moyes does not have that. Fact.

8.) 15 Dec 2013
It looks like our manager might make it for one more week:)

9.) 15 Dec 2013
Steviek

Loyalty works more than one way. Has Moyes displayed loyalty to the back room staff he axed? I didn't see Neville expressing disappointment at the lack of loyalty to them and to people who brought continuing success to the club. I support the club and the team without needing to be told about loyalty and I don't have to show loyalty to a manager who was appointed without the necessary experience. Should Moyes achieve anything then I will give him credit and in time support but I remain firm in my thoughts that we appointed the wrong man.

10.) 15 Dec 2013
"Should Moyes achieve anything then I will give him credit and in time support "

So you want the best of both worlds? You'll criticise him constantly until it comes good, and then you'll give your support to him. That's very good of you, mate. How about backing him from the start to give him a better chance? Or at the very least, hold your tongue until the man actually gets a chance to do his job. And by chance, I don't mean a third of a season.

11.) 15 Dec 2013
Steviek

Like I said if he had the credentials as for example Klopp does I would not be having this exchange. I also don't like the suggestions of disloyalty for not being convinced by a manager who was foisted on us. I have supported the club and the team without question over many years and note we were also told to be loyal to Sexton and co. A few months ago I suggested we should have changed direction away from having the old fashioned all powerful manager and gone with the Bayern Munich, Barca type model in which the structure of the club isn't ripped up by someone coming in and ousting the back room staff. Not much loyalty by Moyes there was there?

12.) 15 Dec 2013
I'm not suggesting disloyalty, mate. I'm suggesting a certain degree of 'having your cake and eating it'.

Is it really so hard for our more negative fans to say, 'let's hold off on the criticism of Moyes, until the man gets a proper chance at doing his job? Much as we love hearing the sound of our own opinions, and, most importantly, hopefully having our opinions on him proved right, maybe we'll just sit back and say nothing until he gets a season at least under his belt."

If after next summer, there's no sign of getting back to where we've been, then by all means, shout your mouths off as loudly as you want.

You keep saying you're 'told' to support the manager. I say support for a NEW manager, whoever he is, should be an absolute pre-requisite for any Utd fan. You shouldn't need to be told to do it. I don't give him my support, because Fergie 'told' me to. I do it because I want to give the guy, and our club, every chance.

Do we not want him to have the best chance possible to succeed? Or would we rather criticise him constantly, feed the media sharks, add to the pressure on him, and see him fail, just to try and justify our personal opinion of him.

The fella's taken on the biggest job in world football, managing the biggest club in the world after the greatest ever manager has left, and you expected him to just slot right in, without making any mistakes? Seriously?

Who's to say the beloved and revered Klopp would have fared any better? In fact, it could be argued, that as manager of Dortmund, there's absolutely no pressure on Klopp. They're comfortably Germany's second club, and even their own fans don't expect them to seriously challenge Munich. Finishing second and a wee run in Europe every season, and his job's safe - comfort zone. Take him to Utd, where we're expected to win everything by our demanding fans, and who's to say he wouldn't crack under the pressure? Football is not an exact science.

I often tell my son, that a better way to judge a person, is how they deal with adversity, rather than when things are going well.

I have to say, the reaction of some on here during a difficult period at the club, has been embarrassing. It's taken rival fans to come on here, and put a little perspective on things.

You do know, that it's not a few poor results that have them laughing at us, it's some of our fans' reactions that have them in hysterics.

Is it really that difficult to support our manager, despite the fact you personally would rather have had someone else? If it is, I'd suggest that you're letting your own sense of self-importance, get in the way of doing everything to help the current regime succeed, and by extension, helping our club succeed.

As for your last remark, Moyes personally, owed the backroom staff no loyalty. He'd never worked with them before. You could say he showed loyalty to the people he had been working with, in taking them with him. His decision, and one that'll either prove to be right or wrong in the long-term. But not a decision that can be proved in 6 months.

And as I recall, most on here were calling Phelan all sorts of derogatory names last season. Yet now, he was a vital part of the backroom staff? Another case of wanting it all ways.

Anyway, I've waffled on long enough. I enjoy our little discussions, even if I don't agree with you. At least you can string a coherent argument together, unlike some of the spoilt little madams :)

13.) 15 Dec 2013
Steviek

I think we trod similar ground in the seventies although I think I was around a little longer and my feeling is based on the misplaced loyalty given to other managers. The pre Ferguson managers did not have his winning experience and until we brought him in we fell short. It was always going to be next year. When SAF came in we knew what he had done, his medals and winning mentality. He also made us aware of his goal. It made him very credible as the new manager of a fallen giant, winning was in his DNA. We suffered the Sexton era and Atkinson never got to grip with what was needed despite both having better CVs than Moyes had. I felt the successor to SAF had to have the stature but I confess to being utterly amazed at the choice. To appoint someone without a win was such a major risk to the clubs immediate future.

Moyes probably doesn't owe loyalty to the back room staff but I wasn't thinking Phelan, at all, I was thinking Rene and our Goalkeeping coach plus other changes in infrastructure.

The Opposition fans I know are not laughing at our reactions but they are openly rubbing their hands with glee because we chose Moyes. One Scouser I know said they couldn't believe their luck and thanked their lucky stars we didn't get Klopp because that would have frightened them to death.

I think Moyes inexperience shows in a lot of ways one for example in his dealing with the press but I go back to a point I made about leadership. The United job needs a leader and leadership is far more than managing, Moyes should have sold us his vision of where he wanted to take us but we still don't know what he wants us to buy into.

I enjoy a good debate, but passionately love the club and am frustrated by the risk they have taken. The experience of the pre SAF years left me very keen on the right choice and what I have seen so far has left me very concerned. I work long hours but feel so passionately I spend a lot of time writing on here as many do and whatever we think of Moyes we all want our team to win.

14.) 15 Dec 2013
There's misplaced loyalty, mate, and there's giving a guy more than a third of a season to show if he's up to the job.

15.) 16 Dec 2013
Best read so far. Thank you Steviek and Red Man

16.) 16 Dec 2013
StevieK

Moyes didn't display he was up to the job at United during 11 years at Everton so three months more isn't going to make a difference!