03 Dec 2015 19:08:13
Evening guys,

I was wondering what you guys thought our best formation under LVG has been and what you think our best formation has been in general.

I do love a good tactical debate, and Shappy I'd be interested in you getting in on this one. Unfortunately I have not always had time to talk with you in more depth about these areas.

In my opinion our most effective period was with Mata Rooney and Young as a front three. This achieved the best results, beating Spurs, Liverpool and City comprehensively.

However, going forward, I believe that our best formation may actually be the 3-4-3 that Pep uses. Not only would I like to see Pep managing here, I think that this tactic of his is superb.

Here is why and why it could work for us:

GK: We have an excellent keeper with fabulous distribution who is good on the ball. This means that he is able to recycle possession.

Defense: In a three man defense you need good ball playing defenders that stay tightly packed. And you also need one that is able to come out of defense and act almost as a 'libero'. This player can pick a pass, move with the ball and also come out of defense to make interceptions. We would need an addition here, someone like Stones who is actually very tidy on the ball.

Midfield: The midfield 4 is made up of the two wide players and two in the middle. The two wide players ideally are full backs that are good going forward but can also drop back without the football. Shaw and Darmian are both very good at this and Valencia could also do this, probably better than he could be a right back. In this system, Shaw and Darmian would stay very wide to provide width which at times I feel we lack due to the tendency of both wingers to come inside and the lack of attacking participation from the fullbacks. The midfield two need to be sturdy, one good passer, one water carrier. Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger are ideal here for those roles and Herrera or Carrick could slot in too for rotation.

Front 3: The beauty of this system is that your front 3 can focus more on attacking, take more risks and be more dangerous. Our current front 3 of Martial, Memphis and Rooney would be able to get forward more with Rooney dropping into the middle at times and playing intelligently. Martial and Memphis are both comfortable out-wide and through the middle and could work in tandem as one goes wide the other comes central to keep the central defenders occupied.

This system would also appeal to us because we have high levels of possession. But the beauty of it is that more of our players are in the opposition half. The passing is usually quicker as there are more triangles available to exploit and there are more attacking players supported by width (they don't have to provide the width necessarily) . With a high press we are able to stifle the opposition more and ideally get the ball back quickly when we lose it. And with quick defenders, we shouldn't get caught out in behind.

The system would work better with a few additions, e. g. Stones, maybe another forward player - Kane for example who for me is a complete striker like Lewandowski is (obviously not the same class, yet) . I believe this is the system that Pep would employ with the resources we have, and it is the system that I am a big fan of (just not how LVG does it) .

What do you think? Banter please - I'd love for this to be seen so we can have a good old evening debate!

Cheers.

1.) 03 Dec 2015
03 Dec 2015 19:30:54
The best formation for us is a 4123. It's effectively a 433 but with one holding player and two slightly higher up. This would help to get the best out of our attacking play as we will have two midfielders (Herrera and Schneiderlin) to support the attack and getting closer to Mata, Martial and whoever plays along side them (Memphis for me) .

2.) 03 Dec 2015
03 Dec 2015 19:35:11
Think it would be interesting to see how a 3-4-3 would work in our league. Smalling and rojo would be able to play in this system well I feel, and possibly jones and mcnair if they get a run of games, although mcnair probably needs a year or two. Blind would probably miss out in this system as he would probably struggle in the wing back or centre back roles. One of the players you didn't mention is young he would be fine playing at wing back as he's done many times.
In the midfield I think if we are playing a higher pressure game schneiderlin would be perfect off the ball but in tighter spaces, which we would be working in if we were higher up the pitch, I think he could struggle with the ball and Herrera might be a better option. Carrick has worried me recently he has struggled at times, and it's shown that signing bastian was absolutely crucial. Looks like he has a few years left if we look after him.
In the forwards we really lack movement, and wether that is down to the players or lvg is a completely different debate, but I think players like martial mata Memphis and lingard could all enjoy success there. Lingards movement and freedom have impressed me and I think we missed him against Leicester. He seems to be all over the pitch and only really lacks a bit of quality in the final third. If Memphis drifted a bit more he could make a bit more of an impact I feel.
Rooney I'm still unsure of, I keep waiting for him to hit a bit of form but it's not really happening.
3-4-3 would be really interesting to watch, but I think against the better teams I would prefer a 4-3-3 which you mentioned saw us play some great football at the end of last season against top teams, it's a bit baffling why we haven't used it this year. So for me I would like us to give that a go again, with morgan bastian and Herrera in the middle.

3.) 03 Dec 2015
03 Dec 2015 19:24:21
i believe the best formation would be for him to be sacked.

4.) 03 Dec 2015
03 Dec 2015 20:08:50
All righty then. lol.

Well for me the best formation under LvG was 433, it allowed for quicker transitions and faster movement of the ball which lead to the most offensive spell of LvG's reign.

But it's important to remember that a formation is just a starting block to make things easier to understand, it is the the tactics that will dictate the way the team plays. For example we are currently lining up 4231 which is how Real Madrid line up most weeks, it is how Heynckes set up his treble winning Bayern team and how Klopp set up his double title winning Dortmund team and yet all those teams play a very different 4231 to the one we play under LvG.

I don't think your assertion that our squad would suit a 343 is correct. First off it puts a massive strain on your wide players as they have to tend to the wide duties on their own. If they over commit and are unable to get back then gaps open up in your defence. If they stay too deep then it allows the opposition defence to compress the play and makes it hard to create openings. The fact that Darmian is are only current fit full back I think shows that 343 would not be a great formation for us. Also it requires three intelligent and complete centre backs, currently Smalling is our best centre back but his lack of positional sense would be exposed in this formation. Jones and Rojo aren't best suited to this formation. The only player we have who could do well in this defensive set up would be Blind. He is a very good player but not one I would be building a defensive set up around to get the best out of.
In the midfield two need to be high energy box to box type players to fit well in this system. Carrick is similar to Alonso who currently struggles to get a game in this system at Bayern and they sold Schweinsteiger to us as he isn't suited to it either. meaning we have limited midfielders who suit this system.

For me the squad would require far too much of an overhaul to make playing a 343 type system sensible. we would need 3 or 4 CB's a couple of Full backs and a couple of midfielders just to have the needed coverage of players. that's without even looking at the forward line.

For me my favourite formation is 4141 type formation. One striker leading the line who can hold up the ball and bring other into play. I like one deep lying midfielder who protects the space in front the back four and covers for the full backs. That player allows the full backs to push forward along with the wingers to create overloads out wide, I like wingers who can cut in to the space created from that overload and shoot or play passes towards the goal. I like two further advanced midfielders who have a rounded skill set allowing them to get stuck in when defending but have enough skill and guile to get forward and support through the middle and be the second line of attack. I like this tho be a high pressing team who look to attack as quickly as possible.
In essence the team would play in a similar way to how Klopp's Dortmund side played but with a more dynamic midfield.

5.) 03 Dec 2015
03 Dec 2015 20:38:10
Good post Fresh but I disagree with your formation. I realise the game has changed but our success was built on 4-4-2. However, nowadays I'm with Shapster, 4-1-4-1 works for me. However, as I have said in response to CTR the formation is irrelevant if the players are too scared to play their natural game.