08 Dec 2013 10:16:49
Danny

"I'm old enough to remember what being a United supporter was like before SAF arrived, and that's where I can see us headed with Moyes and the Glazers. But I don't think it's a generational thing at all, I think those who refuse the place any responsibility on Moyes shoulders or accept that he is out of his depth must have their heads up a darkened crevice."


The reason I asked and no disrespect was meant was to get a better feel of your thought process. I look at stuff sometimes from a business related experience and having restructured organizations in the past before I set up on my own, I can scan see many similarities. They were good organizations and People did not understand why we were doing it because things seemed fine questioned why all the change?

It really depends if you believe we were in good shape prior to Moyes or a team that had cracks in many places and patchwork. I am of the view that we were in the second category and have been quite honest about those views.

1. Do you think we have bought well in the last 5 to 6 years?
2. Have you seen anything noteworthy from our youth system?
3. Do you think our scouting network has been good?
4. Do you believe we have planned well for key players coming to the end of their career who were not just any player but world class with replacements being bled into the team.

My views on the all the above is a no, so Moyes changing the scouting network, Backroom staff is not a bad thing because they are the same guys who have us in this pickle.

Our style of play as everyone likes to criticize did not show up overnight since he took over and has been there for 3 to 4 years. The difference is we are one year older and injuries and form has hit us where it hurts most.

Take Liverpool as an example, I remember last year people making fun of Brendan Rogers and loving every bad result and questioned the changes he was making. He was given time to bring his own players in and It took them a while and you could see things coming together towards the end of last season and definitely this year. He has made some mistakes on individual purchases but overall he has made big strides. I do realize some the fans might hate reading this but you have to give credit where it is due.

I am as disappointed as anyone with how things are going but I try to show exert some degree of control and believe me it is much easier to join the crowd and ask for heads :).

I never rated us as a great team last year and sort of expected tough times ahead and that is where some people will disagree with me as they genuinely believe the team is great and keep bringing up the 11 point gap.

Criticizing Moyes and Fellaini is an easy out for people to vent their frustration. Fellaini was not my first choice either but he is not as poor as people say and give him some time to settle down. His prolonged transfer saga and injuries has not helped in terms of him settling in.

Moyes will ultimately be held responsible and if he does not get it right will go, but we are a long way away from reaching that decision or conclusion.

1.) 08 Dec 2013
I think if you looked at the players yesterday there is an underlying major issue bubbling away. Looking at them I don't think they believe in what Moyes is preaching and if he has lost the dressing room how long do we stay with him?

2.) 08 Dec 2013
08 Dec 2013 11:47:33
Sorry for the long post and I hope this does not come over as a Moyes bash. I just want to look at what has happened before and since his appointment.
The end of 2012-2013 season and Everton finish 6th under David Moyes. Moyes has made Everton a hard team to play against, a team that will fight to the end and always have an on field physical presence, imo a pragmatic style but the players believe in him.
1st July Moyes is officially the new Manchester United manager. He is the manager of the champions of England who won the league at a cantor. In winning the premiership Utd throughout the season (and other seasons) demonstrated great resilience in never giving a game up and fighting to the very end. A pragmatic attitude, SAF demanded from his players.
IMO Utd had a poor pre-season tour in comparison to the previous year but this is no surprise as the new manager had to assess his squad. In addition to this, Utd quite publically attempt to sign several high profile players. Utd sign Marouane Fellaini for £27.5m, imo a player who can be used as a target man in a long ball game or as an extra stopper in midfield if seeing out a game whilst defending a lead. A pragmatic player.
Now fast forward to today, Everton are 5th (with a game in-hand) under their new manager, Martinez, who has added a degree of flair to the hardworking Everton style. The Everton fans (the ones I know) are happy with their new man.
Utd are ninth and the gap between us and the business end of the league is becoming alarmingly wide imo. We look as though there is no game plan, we seem to have lost the confidence to adapt/change shape in order to get into and on top of a game.
Imo buying 3-4 players will not suddenly turn things around, indeed it could well have a negative impact. Moyes does need to change things though, he needs to get the players up for every game, we need to fight for every ball and then move the ball quicker, pull the other team around, make them feel like they're chasing shadows. When you're in a hole it becomes harder to climb out the deeper you go, we need more effort more grit. Until the work ethic returns by getting all players onside, then this slide will continue. We as fans need to back David Moyes, the boss, he needs to believe the fans are behind him.
Yes initially one or two players are required, yes over a period of time ( 1-2 years) further players to add and yes Moyes needs to improve his game. Wholesale changes, no.
Personally I think Moyes dropped a clanger in signing Fellaini but he was still finding out what level Utd operate at, hopefully he has learned a lot since and only time will tell, I cannot see it but I'm only a fan.

3.) 08 Dec 2013
Someone talking the truth at last .these problems we are having started years ago .not disputing how good fergie was but he never addressed the midfield problem .we need to open our eyes we won a bad league last year

4.) 08 Dec 2013
The problem with your argument is that if the old regime was the problem the Moyes is a continuation of that regime. Take your business analogy further. If a business is restructuring because of the deep rooted infrastructural problems and managerial failings, which you allude to, do they give the manager they are replacing carte blanche to pick their successor? Of course they don't.

We have not bought well in the last 5 years.
And we have not planned well for replacing older players.

But,

Our youth system continues to produce top class players. I doubt we or anyone else will see anything like the class of 92 ever again. However, it is a sad reality that young players have different ambitions and motivations today, it is telling that our two biggest young talents of the last few years have moved clubs for different reasons. And Moyes's record with youth player development is not encouraging: breaking Rodwell with his training regime and refusing to play a player of Barkley's quality. You can count the players that made the transition from Everton's academy to the first team under Moyes on one hand.

And there is nothing hugely wrong with the club's scouting system. SAF was targeting top class players: Ozil, Hazard and Snejider, for example. The problem is more directly related to the owners and their lack of investment. No manager signs second and third options by choice, they do it if they can't secure the players they want. Moyes still has these constraints, however, players are far less likely to be enticed to play under Moyes than SAF. RVP, for example, would not be a United player if Moyes was in charge two summers ago. So I think we're actually in a weaker position when it comes to transfers, and this was borne out during the summer.

I am perfectly happy with transition, but I can't see what positive changes Moyes is trying to make. In fact yesterday the man himself claimed that he has changed nothing from last season. When SAF took over he told the supporters what he was doing and why he was doing it. With Rodgers last season, who I did not criticise, you could visibly see how he was changing the way Liverpool played: he came with a clear philosophy and stuck to it. I can't see any of this with Moyes. I see a man who is struggling to adapt to the pressures of a big club, supported by an inexperienced staff, and a team that looks drained of confidence and bereft of ideas. A team takes on its managers personality, SAF's United were always confident and resolute. Moyes United look scared that they are not good enough to win.

What we needed was a manager who would challenge the owners to invest properly in the team. We needed a manager who was assured of his status as a top manager and would not be happy unless he received the required financial backing. Instead we hired a manager who isn't proven at the top level, who wasn't identified through any selection process and didn't even have to interview for the job. We got a manager who was hired because his friend chose him. Now Moyes knows that his appointment will always be in question: he wasn't hired on merit, he was hired because who he is friends with. Because of this he needs the support of the owners and because of this he won't be seen to undermine them. Ultimately he is not the man to change the infrastructural problems: these problems are directly related to our owners and I can guarantee you that Moyes will never challenge them.

The reality of it all is that if we give Moyes the time people seem to think he needs we will find it harder and harder to attract the top players we need. We will be earning less and less prize money, be less and less assured of wining trophies, and we may find that next season that we can no longer guarantee CL football. Moyes has until the end of the season, but I, for one, think that the club should be planning for next summer and hiring a new manager properly and professionally.

{Ed002's Note - You need to sign in.}

5.) 08 Dec 2013
The fact is apart from RVP and let's give Kagawa the benefit of the doubt (Who I think will leave) United have not bought a world class player in god knows how long, the players are all getting older we have also had injuries.

Now the injuries could be a by product of Moyes fitness regime which can be a problem, bear in mind that a large % of the United players have only ever known United

SAF leaving must have been a massive blow to all but Rooney also if we remember what happened when SAF said he was resigning before look how we fell away and that was while he still managed.

Moyes has been let down by his players no matter what happens he will still be manager and we can only work through it

6.) 08 Dec 2013
No Name

Off course there are deep rooted problems when you fail/neglect to replace key players window after window and buy one winger after another that turn out to be prunes.

Do you know of any top teams who are as poor as us when it comes to crossing the ball into the box. Our best two strikers take turns on corners for christ sake when both playing.

There are far too many average players on this team and need a good kick up the backside. Either he gets them to play better, they go or he goes but doubt the next manager could do much better with this lot.

7.) 08 Dec 2013
I'm the no name (sorry ed).

You still have to answer any of the substantive questions about Moyes. You say (a) another manager wouldn't be doing better and (b) we will have to wait and see if his 'changes' work out for the better.

First, our team is not as strong as some people think, and I have never disputed this. But I refuse to believe that there isn't another manager out there who could do better than Moyes. We still have one of the better squads in the league. Nowhere near the best in Europe, but come on we are struggling against every side we face. Take the blinkers off and ask yourself if are really a midtable side. Moyes is the manager, it's his job to motivate the players, if he can't do it then he is failing.

More importantly, you have yet to point toward any changes Moyes is making, any improvements he has started to make, or any evidence that he is capable of turning things around. There is a difference between acknowledging that the manager is making identifiable changes that will take time to implement, and crossing your fingers and repeating wait and see how it turns out in a few years.

8.) 08 Dec 2013
Patience is a virtue and meaningful change takes time.

I think we should just stop now mate as we agree to disagree and just going over the same thing all the time.

9.) 08 Dec 2013
As I have said there is a major difference between a manager making identifiable changes that take time to yield results, and crossing your fingers and hoping for the best. Moyes doesn't look like he's making any of the major changes you keep alluding to, he looks like he's struggling to cope with the job and the pressure, and is making mistake after mistake after mistake.

Patience is all well and good but when no Moyes supporter can point to a single positive change or impact in 5 months, then we have moved into the realm of blind faith.