13 Feb 2014 19:20:03
Putting confidence and change of management aside, I think the biggest problem at the club is the really poor tactics and formation. I wonder how long we will persist with the 4-4-2? For me, we have to move to a 4-3-3 as a matter of urgency - a lot of the top teams use it and get width from their full backs. It works well for Madrid, has done for Barca etc. A front 3 of Rooney, RVP and Mata with Mata dropping off centrally would get the best out of him and then having 3 bodies in the midfield would stop us from getting over run - Fellaini, Carrick, Kroos would be good with Kroos being the most advanced.

Question is guys, what formation should we move to and will we move when Moyes gets the men that he wants?

1.) 13 Feb 2014
I agree fresh we do desperatly need to get away from 442. But there's 1 main problem that's stopping us that being patrice evra! His lack of defending and effort to get back is the main reason I think we've stuck with 442. Only my opinion though. What I wonder is in the next few games would it be worth playing buttner? I know he's rough dound the edges but evra knows no matter how bad he plays he has no competition. Also if were not willing to play buttner there is absolute no reason to keep him come summer as he's not trusted by moyes.

2.) 13 Feb 2014
Fresh

Teams that play 433 have forwards who can be as effective down the wings because they have pace and not esy to defend against as they are comfortable coming inside or going around the outside.

When was the last time you saw Rooney or RVP taking someone on going around them on the outside and scoring.

Madrid can play that style with Benzema, Ronaldo, Bale who are just totally different type of players.

Barca don't play 433 and it is some form of variation that they play, which is like a 4123 with busquet sitting further back in front of the back four and iniesta and xavi/fabregas as the 2 mids behind the front 3.

They have Neymar, Sanchez on either side of messi and no need to go into the difference of those 3 to what we have.

Easier for a team like Liverpool to play that way as Suarez, Sturridge and Coutinho are all very fast and suit that system.

Our team is a team that has been designed to play 442. If you look at our strikers they all want to play in the hole or as the advanced forward and all struggle when they are moved out right or left and do a dummy spit. Our wingers are wingers and not forward and don't score many goals.

The reality is I think we will migrate to a 4231 next year once we have different players. We will always have an issue with rooney, mata, kagawa and it is going to be difficult to fit them all into that system.

I have read umpteen times where people criticize the manager for playing Mata or Kagawa out of position but no one has been able to answer a simple question, which btw fergie was also criticized for the same thing last year.

"Where do you play Rooney if you played kagawa or mata in the number 10"?

I can see why both managers have a dilemma because playing them in they ideal position negates rooney, which opens up such a can of worms with regards to the pros ad cons of rooney.

As far as the manger goes he must see rooney as the more important piece of the teams make up than kagawa and will always sacrifice kagawa.

It is too early to say where Mata might end up playing but that is also not going to be an easy decision. I thought signing mata meant rooney was leaving but it does not look like it.

We might be able to play a 4123 with Fellaini or carrick holding mata and kroos/ herrera playing as the two mid behind a front 3 that will need players like

reus-Janusaj (left)
RVP/ Cavani (center)
Di Maria/Sanchez (right side)

it is some shift from where we are and would men players like welbeck, hernandez, nani, valencia, Young will all need do be moved on. It will take more than one window to make the changes and ed002 estimates 18 months but I think it might take even longer and something like 2 summer windows given the required investment.

{Ed004's Note - Two interesting stats I saw today. Firstly was with Kagawa on the pitch utd have not gone longer than 45 minutes without scoring and RVP was getting a lot of grief for his effort the other night yet covered the 4th most ground out of all 22 players. I think the way forward is with either Rooney or RVP as the main striker. One must be sold IMO}

3.) 13 Feb 2014
Ed, I can see RVP leaving I really can. This would solve a lot of problems but the problem is I would feel as though he would be such a loss. With injuries and an ageing RVP surely we could keep both but play him more selectively. I struggle to see a resolution though. We could do with the creativity of Kagawa, Mata and Januzaj.

{Ed004's Note - I honestly think Rooney should be sold tbh. I think we need to play Kagawa more}

4.) 13 Feb 2014
Ed004

I understand where you are coming from but there are people who insist we can play them all together, which I just don't see. I think Rooney's contract situation makes the whole thing very difficult for moyes.

I honestly don't know what is the best combination of front 4, assuming we play a 4231. It would be interesting to see how we play with mata in the hole, kagawa left and janusaj on the right hand side and having those three switch positions sometime during the game with Kagawa playing central and mat moving out right or left with Janusaj.

The issue is he has had such a horrible start to his united tenure people will go nuts if he leaves rooney out or RVP out :)

Btw Who were the top 3 players in terms of covering the field?

{Ed004's Note - Carrick, Rooney and Arteta in that order}

5.) 13 Feb 2014
I like Rooney and RVP independently but they don't seem to work well together. We would be stronger if we played Mata behind Rooney with two of Pedro, Lucas, Reus, Griezmann or Muniain down the flanks. Letting RVP go though would be impossible for Moyes to do.

6.) 13 Feb 2014
Ed, where did you get that Kagawa stat from? Evil Kagawa?

{Ed004's Note - I dunno came across it in some article probably wrong}

7.) 13 Feb 2014
Everton 1-0 United last season comes to mind Ed004.

{Ed004's Note - Then the stat was wrong might have been on average or something}

8.) 13 Feb 2014
I have been calling for this change for quite a while now, and got laughed at when I suggested selling one of rooney/ rvp and using mata and kagawa in this way back in november when the possibility of mata potentially becoming available first came up.

but if we are to sell (preferably) rooney then we should use that money toward someone like draxler, reus or even gaitan, just to balance out the team.
with rvp, hernandez and henriques as potential strikers leading the line, you would then pick 3 of draxler, kagawa, mata, powell, januzaj, kroos (if we can get him) or valencia to play behind them, depending on how much width you want or movement through the middle.
i think the reason we haven't seen this so far is because we lack the strong midfield to build off of. what we need is a a strong defensive minded player to win the ball, and another to link the with the attacking players. at the moment we have carrick who could fullfill either role but no-one to play beside him. the closest we came was when we played jones next to giggs in europe, and it is no surprise that this was probably our best performance to date under moyes.
i would like us to get one of gundugan/herrera to play along side kroos, using fletcher, carrick and fellaini as back up as that would give the strongest potential competition for places through out the squad and would have players suitable for various systems be it the 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 (looking more like a 4-1-2-3) or a 4-4-2 if needed

9.) 13 Feb 2014
My view is that Rooney should occupy the left hand berth of a three behind the striker with mata central and januzaj on the right.

I know that Rooney might not like it but he is the most naturally suited to that position due to his work rate. He could also be reminded that for £250k a week he can do what he's bloody well told!

10.) 13 Feb 2014
It looks as though with Rooneys contract he has to be played otherwise Moyes knows he will simply not sign and walk out, which means kagawa isn't getting a lot of game time because of it.
Mata will be also played as he will have been told he will be a starter before signing, (not many start there debut when lacking match practice).
While Moyes' words pre season were taken out of context you can tell he prefers rvp over Rooney but as I said before Rooney holds the cards at the moment.

I would let him sign then sell him.
Let mata kagawa januazj play behind rvp.

11.) 13 Feb 2014
I think its quite simple, we have an excellent GK. Crap Defense and midfield but an array of talent up front.

If we went 442 need 2 wingers 2 cm new center back, left back.

4231 new lb, cb, cm, poss 1 winger.

433 cb, lb, rb, 2 cm

I think 4 1 3 2 we would require less.

ddg
Raph Cb Jones/small LB
fellani
Adnan Mata Kagawa
Rvp Roon

2 may be 3 players, width from raph and new lb.

i just don't get the logic of selling rooney. best player we have.

12.) 14 Feb 2014
Treble1999,
that 4-1-3-2 would get walked over in midfield, rooney may be our best player but we would be more balanced as a team without him. the simple matter is that because we have a weak midfield rooney drops too deep, yes he may come back to collect the ball but once he does, what then? he will either pass it short or try the hollywood pass, in which either way he is now massively out of position leaving less options upfront and attacks often breaking down.
having januzaj, mata and kagawa interchanging behind rvp or hernandez would be far more potent as both strikers are better are better at findind those pockets of space and getting on the end of through balls provided from those three, kagawa in particular would thrive as he is very good at arriving late into the box, again finding space for through balls.
also because all 3 players are better technically than rooney and with a better touch, we would be able to retain possession better relieving pressure from the defense, it may also allow us to play higher up the pitch to maintain pressure on the opposition as we wouldn't have to worry about tracking back as much (doubly important as we have a slow midfield)

dags

13.) 14 Feb 2014
While Rooney and RvP are both top players I think Moyes has got to have the balls to drop either one if they're not playing their best. Personally I think Rooney was utter sh!te against arsenal apart from the one ball he did for RvP's good chance. Kagawa should have been brought on for Rooney and then put on the left with Mata going central and Januzaj on the right.

Agree with ed004 Kagawa needs to be given a run in his best positon or at least put on the pitch with both Mata and Adnan so they can all inter change. Can't be any worse than what's already happening on the pitch, I'm sure Mata, Kagawa and Januzaj would link up very well, along with RvP.

14.) 14 Feb 2014
The solution to all our worries is oh so simple to see but seriously difficult to rectify. We all know we are weakest in the middle of the park and the addition of a true defensive midfielder with a bit of pace would solve most of our problems. It would give us cover when our fullbacks go forward, as well as that little extra pace to play a higher line. Our wide players wouldn't need to come inside to help as much, and our strikers wouldn't need to drop so deep as well. The addition of a single player in the mould of busquets would allow us to play a much more balanced side.

15.) 14 Feb 2014
Elpaso

I know many say 1 cm I believe we need 2 CM that can cover the pitch going up and down with enough pace being able to pass also helps:)

Any of the top European teams have a group of 5 to 6 really good midfielders, which are a combination of attacking, holding and box to to box and allows them to tactically change personnel when needed.

Depending on who you listen we have 2 or 3 and that is also debatable :)

If anything I would earmark 60 million of our summer spending for 2 cm. Then spend the on a LB and CB.

I would look to churn our entire group of wingers (Nani, young, valencia, maybe zaha) in the next 24 months and replace them with better quality winger/forward type players.

Criteria number one for any new wide player would be a trial where they must demonstrate they can cross the f…g ball LOL.