14 Sep 2015 09:31:46
Well now the overreaction and the emotion has died down let's talk about our current side and the issues we are having.

Now I've heard nothing but scorn for how we played in the first half against Liverpool, now it was far from brilliant but there were some positives to be taken.
Yes we lacked any real attacking intent, but we also totally dominated them, we kept the ball and had the territorial advantage. The way we kept the ball the defended was excellent. And against the top teams it tends to be more about how you defend than how you attack. This conservative patient approach may well be boring but against the tougher teams it will be effective. The second half we changed it a bit and had more runners, and all of our goals came from players making runs. Young ran at Clyne and won a free kick, Herrera ran at Gomez and won a penalty and Martial ran at everyone and slotted in a great debut goal. But this running at our opponents opened up space behind us and as a result Liverpool had space to attack us and created chances of their own. In fact over the whole game they actually had more chances than us.

So here is the problem, we look poor going forward because no one is making runs. But when we do make runs we leave ourselves open to be countered and our defence doesn't look strong enough to deal with it.

So we are left with one of two options.

Option 1, control the game though possession and try and prise an opening. It will be boring, and it won't get you off your seat. But it is effective.

Or option 2, go all out attack and hope we out score our opponents. Leave space behind and hope our weak defence can keep enough chances out. It will be entertaining but we would lose as many as we would win.

If you want to want to win the league you either need to score the most or concede the least, since its inception in the premier league only 3 times in 23 years has the team to win the league been neither the top scorer or have the best defence. Seeing as it is very unlikely that we can top score, maybe our best hope is defence.

1.) 14 Sep 2015
14 Sep 2015 10:56:29
Disagree. The solution can't be simplified like that. Isn't LvG just trying to play safe for reducing defensive risks? What have we got now? How can we tactically play more safe base on the tactic now?

Beside,
1. We have more quality attackers then defenders.
2. City has best quality in doing the best at both end.

We do have a good squad now. I think it's just a issue of how well the manager utilize the players, to the degree of invoking their true quality and potential.

That's why Swansea beat us with a objectively less quality team.

2.) 14 Sep 2015
14 Sep 2015 10:58:35
Yes the eternal conflict of interest between attack and defence which we can't really get the balance right of.

I think most fans who are irked by our style of play understand that building from the back can be slow, that's understandable and also with the double pivot in midfield we play they tend to be methodical passers as well. But once it gets into that front 4, fans rightly expect quick incisive play. People like mata and depay should be taking men on or in matas case looking forwards for that killer pass. In the first half against lpool which was methodical, it wasnt the sheer numbers of people that we committed to attack that was the problem, it was the speed of the front 4 which was the issue. That isn't only phyiscal speed but also speed of mind to play clever, intricate passes.

Gary neville incapsulated our first half display is one statement which was:
" united were in on the counter with mata fellaini and schweinsteiger, none of whom can run" lol

3.) 14 Sep 2015
14 Sep 2015 11:02:40
Shappy - The key point for me is that we still don't look solid, I worry whenever a team attacks us. We are liable to make mistakes, it only takes somebody to give the ball away and we are at 6's and 7's. We are passing it for passing's sake a lot of the time. We are running down the clock from minute 1 hoping for a piece of magic, opponents are just as capable of waiting and hoping for a piece of magic the other way. It's like the game of football is broken down to whichever team takes 1 of their 2 chances all game. MASSIVE GAMBLE!

Teams are happy for us to keep the ball as they know that eventually we will have to commit men forward and they can break when we give it away - it's not like we put teams under pressure or tire them out, we just do the equivalent of a keeper holding onto the ball all game.

Arguably the strategy has worked a few times this season, but it is very easy to score just 1 goal against us. We are not good enough to keep the ball all game and make simple errors at times which have gone unpunished so far (Swansea worked it out, Newcastle almost did with Mitrovic, Spurs with Eriksen, Villa were awful and we didn't look like scoring all game, Liverpool were shocking but had Martial not scored we were in for a torrid last 10mins).

We will do better against teams that attack us as we will have space, but I think only City will attack us this season, the rest will wait to pounce whilst we are busy passing it back and forth going nowhere fast.

So in summary the game of football is no longer a game, it is just who blinks first and we have to expect more from our club than a toss of a coin. Just my take on it.

4.) 14 Sep 2015
14 Sep 2015 11:50:54
JediJohn, that's the thing though football really is much easier than the media makes out. They love to baffle us with buzz words and over complicate and analyse the game and the plays during the game.

But ultimately a game of football comes down to who plays well and who makes mistakes.

With our players we have a defence that has great players at full back but serious question marks over our centre backs. Smalling is much improved and yet still makes a couple of silly errors per game. Jones still hasn't learned how to stay on his feet, RoJo for me looks the best out of the bunch in terms of defending yet he still has a suicidal moment in him. Then we have Blind a great passer and and reader of the game yet lacks strength and pace two of the most important and basic requirements for a modern centre back.

All of them will make mistakes, and ones which will lead to goals being conceded. Therefore we can either just accept they will concede silly goals and just try and out score our opponents or we can make sure we don't attack in numbers and instead use those numbers to protect the back four and limit the amount of time they will be exposed and therefore limit the amount of chances the opposition will have to score against us.

Last season we had Falcao, Di Maria and RvP playing upfront and between them they managed 17 goals between them. How many times did we see them miss good chances last season. And how many times already this season have we seen Rooney, Depay, Mata ect miss good chances this season. We aren't clinical enough to try and outscore teams, we are always more likely to concede more than we score.

As for teams of lesser quality being able to beat us. simply they took there chances which we presented them, while not being clinical enough with our own.

DSG, we do lack pace going forward, the fact that Shaw, Smalling and Rojo are the fastest players in our squad last season highlighted that. It would be interesting to see how quick Martial and Memphis are compared to them. But that just shows how the club have tried to inject some pace at the sharp end of the pitch. But both are young and untested, and you can't put the weight of expectation on their young shoulders just yet.

So if we haven't got the players with sufficient pace to play on the counter then our only option is to play higher up the pitch with possession.

Beast, As I've just said we aren't solid. we have a very weak defence. So our only option to defend well is to keep the ball and not let the opposition have many chances to attack us. And that is what we are trying to do. Against Liverpool we did it well in the first half and they didn't have a single shot against us. In the second half we sacrificed that possession by playing a more offensive style with runs at and in behind the opposition and although it yielded better results for us in terms of goals scored it also opened us up and Liverpool managed 9 shots in the second half. It was their poor finishing that maintained the result for us when we opened ourselves up and attacked them more rather than our good defending.

Smalling and Rojo should be second choice, Jones should probably move on and Blind should be playing in midfield or left back probably as a squad option. If you want this Manchester United side to be able to play offensive swashbuckling football of our past then we need great defenders such as Ferdinand, Vidic, Stam, Bruce and Pallister to protect the back door while we do so. If not then we we will leave ourselves wide open to being put to the sword in the way Leicester managed last season.

So I expect us to keep it tight by holding onto the ball and starving our opponents of chances to score against us. It means a season of unattractive even boring football but it is our best chance of success this season like it or not.

5.) 14 Sep 2015
14 Sep 2015 11:51:26
I think you're building up a massive false dichotomy there Shappy. We ran at Liverpool in the first half too, we just did it better in the second half. Nobody lost the ball more than Depay in the first half because his runs were being stopped by Clyne. The fact of the matter is that Young came on, got the better of Clyne, won a free and we scored. Then Liverpool had to come out and try to attack, this gave us more space and we scored again. Liverpool then had to go all out attack, scored a goal. But soon after Martial caught them on the break.

It's never a case of: we can play controlled defensive football or gung ho attack. If LVG isn't capable of combining attack and defence in a coherent and balanced way, he should be sacked, simple as. In fact, because we now play with two holding mids for the precise purpose of giving the forward players and wingbacks more licence to make forward runs.

6.) 14 Sep 2015
14 Sep 2015 11:51:27
When i played and managed teams many moons ago back in the UK i was taught to build from the back and let's be honest were only one center back off having a great defence for years to come, and blind not doing that bad of a job at the moment.The days of you score 3 and we'll score 4 are gone, the game is for more technical now a days. Personally i think we lack a bit of speed and movement up front, hopefully Martial and Depay can help in that department, but they will need time they are only kids.
Just wounder now about the sale of Welbeck, at the time i wasn't concerned and to be honest still not but he could of done a job on the right in a front 3 with them 2, some speed there.Before anyone says anything yes i know he's out injured.

7.) 14 Sep 2015
14 Sep 2015 12:02:26
We don't look solid? We have the clear best defence record. since last november no team had conceded less.

8.) 14 Sep 2015
14 Sep 2015 12:40:35
Danny, Memphis ran at Liverpool in the first half, but Mata didn't, Felleini didn't, Herrera didn't.
Yet in the second half we did much more, and in more dangerous positions.

As for finding that balance that depends on having the correct balance of players in the squad. If you have great defenders and attackers then you can attack as much as you defend. But considering the lack of quality and the consistent mistakes our defenders make we need to offer them much more protection. Management is about making the most of what you have then building a cohesive side out of that. To be honest we aren't there yet, and you can question if LvG has or will be able to manage that. I think the team looks a more cohesive unit this season compared to last season, but some of the same issues remain, we still have a defence who look shaky when under pressure and they always have a mistake in them. We don't look as sharp upfront, Rooney looks lost and unsure of what to do, and we lack pace and people willing to take people on.

Chelsea won the title last season with Hazard making a massive contribution and City looked miles behind, yet they buy Sterling a player who runs at people and suddenly they look favourites. We lack that kind of player. Imagine if we had someone like Bale in our side and suddenly I would expect we would look like favourites. Failing that we at least need a solid defence.

Murph, I liked Welbeck but he wouldn't have helped much at all. Having pace and power is one thing but being able to add consistency is quite another. Depay is every bit as quick and powerful as Welbeck and is significantly more talented and yet we can't rely on him yet due to a lack of consistency from him.

Ken, We have conceded very few goals over the last 9/10 months but how much of that is down to world class saves from DDG? and how much of that is down to limiting opposition form having chances by domination possession and starving their forwards of service? And how much of that is down to world class performances from our defenders?

I would say DDG and our style of play have more to do with us conceding goals rather than world class performances from the likes of Smalling, Jones and Rojo.

9.) 14 Sep 2015
14 Sep 2015 12:46:56
Shappy we do indeed have to play a possession based game to compensate for out lack of pace which i for one enjoy watching. Seeing the likes of blind smalling carrick bastian on the ball provides a security we need.

But as i said earlier once it gets to the final third we shouldn't be worried about giving the ball away and conceding because logic dictates were so far from our goal we could recover defensively from a ball loss.

Even if memphis is inexperienced, i'm not expecting him to produce every game but i'd hate for his attacking intent to be watered down due to a fear of doing something wrong. For me the onus has to be on someone like mata to create for us. Too many times i see him too happy to play it back the way. At his best mata is up there with david silva when it comes to playmakers but he plays it too safe too often. I read somewhere that matas passing accuracy last season was up at 92%. Some may see that as a good thing but it just tells you he seeks the safe option too much. For people like blind carrick and bastian that is what youd expect because if they lose it the opposition are right on top of us.

I guess what i'm trying to say is for us to really challenge our forward players need to take more risks otherwise well comfortably make top 4 but fall short when it really counts in the games against the lesser oppositions when they sit off us knowing were not posing a threat.

10.) 14 Sep 2015
14 Sep 2015 12:54:46
I agree murph. The game has changed. Even ina Derby now players cannot go flying into tackles and the lack of this old school football has people saying there is a lack of passion. The game has changed into a more technical game requiring a different skill set than what the likes of keane bruce ince hughes etc showed in abundance. Some prefer the old way my father would prefer to watch what was going on in the sixties and preferred the old heavy balls with laces but things move on. The rules have changed and so has the game, not always for the better imo.

11.) 14 Sep 2015
14 Sep 2015 13:41:47
DSG, that's all well and good but say we lose the ball in the final third which of Carrick, Blind or Schweinsteiger do you expect will be able to keep up with the speed at which a team breaks on us?

Not only are we lacking pace in the forward line but in midfield too. This causes problems right throughout the team.

In order to protect our soft defence we are playing possession football to limit the chances our opponents have. But with a lack of pace in the forward line counter attacking is difficult so we are playing that possession high up the pitch so we don't have a lot of ground to make up when we attack. But that means the likes of Carrick, Schweinsteiger and Blind when he plays in midfield are stationed high up the pitch. But they also lack pace so it makes us very prone to counter attacks being able to not just knock it over the top but also for them to run right through us.
And it is the ones running through us which are more dangerous. With a ball over the top it gives our defenders a chance to be first to that ball and win it. But when a team runs right through us they are arriving at the defensive line with the ball and at pace which is every defenders nightmare. That is when our defenders make mistakes either giving away a foul or committing themselves into a challenge and missing completely giving the opposition a clean run at goal.

With a lack of pace throughout the team we have to be extremely careful about when and where we takes risks during the game so as we don't expose our defence.

That is why we struggle attacking teams, it is the fear of exposing our soft underbelly and being turned over in the way Leicester did last season.

12.) 14 Sep 2015
14 Sep 2015 16:03:29
Shappy. I mentioned this the day after the game. Problem is our midfield and defence are not keeping close to our attackers when we lose the ball. This often leaves a big gap between our attackers and defensive midfielders that opposition attackers can exploit.
This is the problem. We need to be more compact as a unit.

13.) 14 Sep 2015
14 Sep 2015 16:44:07
Danny, the majority of the time that Memphis lost the ball he wasn't actually moving with it, it was because he could not control it.

14.) 14 Sep 2015
14 Sep 2015 19:07:52
Schmidfield, I think they are sitting slightly deeper so as not to leave space in behind them. Or maybe they are just staying close to their midfield counterparts and doing their defensive job. Remember it isn't just about what we do but what the opposition are doing and how we counter it or not as the case may be.

Two teams, and two lot of tactics plus two managers who can change those tactics and teams at any point during those 90 minutes. Its not always about what our manager does.