27 Sep 2013 20:23:07
Let me just get something clear, I don't think David Moyes is a bad manager and I think he could be a very good manager for us. I'm just questioning the style we will play under David Moyes.

He has had nearly three months and including pre season games he's had 12/13 games and in all that time he hasn't changed his tactics all that much. That to me suggests he plans to play in a similar vein to his Everton side.

I'm not saying that he can't be successful with that style just are us United fans going to be happy with that?

I had hoped he would adapt a new more expansive style with better players and he may well yet, we are only a few months into his charge. But the early signs point to us playing quite a negative style of play.

1.) 27 Sep 2013
Shapster

How happy were you with last year's style because to be frank, I found watching us hard work most of the time. 3 months is not long. I like the fact he seems prepared to judge people on what they do as opposed to reputations. However, I do want him to play the youngsters and give it a go. Giggs should be a last resort, Zaha and Januzaj should get a chance and let's try and have a good time!

2.) 27 Sep 2013
I think even if he wanted to play a more attacking style with us it would take him too far out of his comfort zone.
The expectation now compared to what he had at everton could not be much different and the pressure to succeed must be huge so I don't see him having the desire or bottle to change a style that has proved relatively successful for him at previous clubs.The chelsea game was there for the taking if wed been more ambitious in the last 15 mins and while it was the first games against a top 6 side so its maybe understandable, over a season its that ambition to turn 1 point into 3 that makes the difference between champions and also rans and a great manager and just a good one

3.) 27 Sep 2013
Shappy - I have been fed up with our performances for the past 2 and a half years, very boring compared to the great free flowing footy of the past.

But, to give Moyes a bit of a break he hasn't rotated his team much at all because of our run of games, therefore he will be sticking to the tactics he believes will be best for those particular players, changing them over the past couple of months could have been worse for us. Hopefully when we have a bit of rotation going on, against teams other than our arch rivals, we will see him use our more dynamic players and play a different system.

I just think he has started a certain way and to chop and change the style every game will be bad in the long run, hopefully they will adapt to his tactics and then build on them into an attacking threat again. Our older players have been used to playing a certain way for several years, it will be difficult to break the habit. Who knows but he needs more time to let things gel and for the youth to get their chance, only then can he start to try new things out in my opinion.

Long term plan sucks at the minute though.

4.) 27 Sep 2013
Shappy

I think if he messes about too much we will put champions league qualifications for next year at risk and I am being serious and not negative nelly.

City, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal unlike year before will not be as helpful in terms of dropping points or going on an extended run of poor games.

Our fixtures against them is also by no means a sure wins and needless to say the away fixtures will be very tricky and I would take 4 draws right now on the away legs :)

If you were in his shoes, there would be a list of priorities and giving games to the likes of Zaha or trying new formations, would not be that high on your list as he has come out and pretty much said today.

I think his priorities would be to pick up points no matter how unattractive the football in order to keep us up near the top and in touch with the leaders and make sure we qualify from our CL group.

Winning as they say cures many things and a run of points and wins at this time is the priority and allows us to work through our issues and give the current players some confidence and potentially bring in reinforcements in January and next summer and that will tell us lot about how he wants to set us up and the style of football we will play going forward.

I think 3 wins in the league and a draw or a win at Shaktar will go a long way of settling us down as we have taken a lot of abuse over the summer and our start to the new season.

5.) 27 Sep 2013
27 Sep 2013 21:46:47
AJH, i've been disapointed with our style for several years. I was hoping a change in management would bring around a change of approach. But apparently not based on what we've seen so far.

6.) 27 Sep 2013
Baby faced

How was the Chelsea game there for taking they were defending with 9 or 10 guys and Mourinho had set out his team to get a draw?

It is hard enough to break down an average team in the league when they park the bus and Chelsea midfield and defense is a touch group for anyone.


I guess people have forgotten, last year we were awe full in so many games and scraped through, so what you are seeing this year is not that different.

The only difference is RVP start last year was unbelievable and this year he has had a quite start.

I think we all need to stop blaming him for everything that is wrong with us at the moment and recognize he has been left with a lot of luggage that has been accumulated for quite a few years and he is not going to make them all go away in 3 months.

7.) 27 Sep 2013
Shappy

I agree with you a 100% but a new manager will not be able to change our style without the right players.

We need to overhaul this squad with 2 top quality midfielders and 2 top quality wingers and if you want utopia add a left back and cb that is comfortable running with the ball up the pitch and can pass.

It will take probably 120 to 150 million of investment in new players over the next 2 summers.

8.) 27 Sep 2013
Shahram,
You'd play it safe and draw away games against our rivals? Or would you rather see us show a bit of intent and maybe win half and lose half? i'm not having a go but its those little differences that made SAF a winner and gave us the success we've had and the extra 2 or 3 points that little bit of ambition would maybe give us could be the difference between beimg champions or finishing 2nd or 3rd

9.) 27 Sep 2013
The fact that chelsea were happy to sit with everyone at the edge of their own area with no attacking intent for the last 15-20 meant the game was there to be won.
Yes ots hard to break a team like chelsea down but we never looked like we even wanted to tbh. Players with the flair or intelligence to unlock defences were left on the bench or not picked.
Im not blaming moyes at all and I even said in another post it was understandable that moyes has felt it important not to lose these early games against rivals but if its a sign of things to come and not losing is a preference to winning then IMO we won't pick up many trophies. The margins of success and failiure are small and its usually those with the hunger to win that succeed and that's my point, not a dig at moyes just a generalisation of what brings success

10.) 27 Sep 2013
Baby face

I appreciate the reply and no worries as this is the best site for exchanging views and our page is the best imo :)

I don't think it is about playing safe and not having a go. We are defensively very vulnerable because of our midfield and who we play on the wings is more about defensive contribution than our best attacking options. It is quite a difficult choice and glad I am not the manager:)

I think winning the league nowadays is such a marathon and more about grinding out results and yes maybe sometimes you play boring football away at Chelsea, City, Spurs and pack the midfield and take your chances at home.

I also think it will be very tight this year for the top 4 places and every point will be immense.

On hind site, I don't think anyone would have been complaining had we gotten 2 dull draws at Liverpool and City and personally wish we had played with a 5 man midfield.

Some of the managers everyone talks about Ancelloti, Mourinho have built their coaching careers on building fortresses at the back first and world class midfielders to go with it.

How many boring and dull games did Mourinho win 1-0 the last time he was at Chelsea with a team that was clearly superior to everyone in terms of talent and investment.

In our case we have not bought a top player in 5 years with RVP being the exception.

11.) 27 Sep 2013
Shappy
did Everton not play the same style as Dortmund;)

12.) 28 Sep 2013
27 Sep 2013 23:41:59
There are players with attacking intent within our squad who he could use if he so wished. Kagawa has the vision and the passing quality to unlock any defence if give the chance, Nani althougb erratic on his day is one of the best wingers in the world, Zaha is raw but has pace power and a few tricks up his sleve. Any one of them would have added a new element to our attack and could have created the chance needed to win a game. But no Moyes has stuck with Valencia, Welbeck and Young. I mean he has even stuck with Young after publicly shaming him for diving. The very fact that he wouldn't drop Young for one of our other available wide men after such and incedent shows imo he has no intention of pushing the boat out. At least not in these early games anyway.

We had other players he could have used but he has chosen to go with work rate over panache. And I don't see him changing anytime soon.

13.) 28 Sep 2013
28 Sep 2013 00:44:49
Jred, I said that Moyes uses elements that are similar to the way Dortmund play. But he had limitations to deal with.

And I stand by that. At Everton he played a version of 4231 like that of Dortmund, he played one passing midfielder and one defensive midfielder. He played with one wide player who will push wide on one side and another wide player who likes to cut in. He played with a striker who had a physical edge and coukd hold the ball up and bring other players into the game.

I could say the same about Dortmund, Gundogan being the passer and Bender the tackler for Everton it was Gibson and Neville, at Dortmund they have Kuba who runs around the outside and Reus who cut in from the left, Moyes used Mirallas to get in behind teams and Pienaar to cut in. You have Lewandowski as a physical presence upfront for Dortmund, Everton had Jelavic.

Infact the there were only two differances, Dortmund had a great passer in Gotze playing in the hole, and Everton went with Fellaini a great physical presence. Its a typical brains over brawn scenario. Its a subtle difference but a key one.

The big difference though is the implemention of the tactics within the set up, Dortmund play a high pressing game which relies on winning the ball back as high up the pitch as possible, where as Everton would sit deep and invite teams on then catch them on the break or score from a set piece.

I said there was similarities, and I hoped that with better players Moyes would be more adventurus. But as of yet we are to see it. I hope he comes round to a more expansive way of playing, but I doubt it with every passing game.

14.) 28 Sep 2013
Shahram,
I just hope we see more intent against the bigger sides than I saw against chelsea.
I know its early days for him but I have my doubts whether he's the man to continue our success but I really hope he can because we need stability but i'm still unsure what qualities he showed ar everton to suggest he would be good for us.
The next few games will show us how he wants us to play, all very winnable and all games that should give moyes the opportunity to try different ideas/players without so much risk IMO.
I

15.) 28 Sep 2013
Shappy at Everton he played 4 in the middle with 2 wide men and fellaini of a striker .
At United he has played 4 in the middle with Rooney of a striker.
Neither tactics are similar to Dortmund .
Watch all 3 teams play United play similar to Everton neither play like Dortmund .
Unless you want to argue they both have 11 men on the pitch

16.) 28 Sep 2013
I think we've seen the best and worst so far, we've played really well and we have played dreadfully. I also thought we were a bit too conservative against Chelsea - they were poor and we should have gone for the jugular.

However, we are only 5 games in so let's all relay. Come on Shahram, you can't seriously think we will go from being runaway Champions to 5th in1 season. It will be tighter and we might not win it but we will be there or thereabouts. I just hope we can a bit more exciting this year

17.) 28 Sep 2013
AJH

I did not say we will finish 5th. I was replying to the idea of formation change and the fact that players are not used to it and we don't have the personel that it might backfire.

I think it is important that we keep picking up points and hang around the top. The next 5 games will go a long way to give everyone including myself a little bit more visibility in terms of how the league will play out this year.

I expect city to distance themselves gradually and a very tight bunch between 2nd to 6th.

18.) 28 Sep 2013
28 Sep 2013 10:14:56
Jred mate re read my post, I didn't say Moyes teams play like Dortmund, I said the set up was similar but the tactics game plan are different. Which means they will play in totally different ways.

Moyes plays his set up in a more defensive way, looking to soak up the pressure and hit on the break, thus his wide players start off wider to cover the flanks and create two banks of four, then when they have the ball the wide players move inwards slightly to create space for the full backs to over lap. It is when Everton attacked they had a 4231 shape and they attacked in a similar way to Dortmund with pace and quick movement. Although the quality Everton had was no where near that of Dortmunds.

The big difference between the two sides is Dortmund play on the front foot, the apply pressure high up the pitch and swap the player in possession in order to win it back as high up the pitch as possible, once they have won it back they counter attack their opponants as quickly as possible. Obviously though their counter atrack tends to start in the final third.

Everton had a more defensive approach and sat back to soak up the pressure and draw the other team out, then when they win the ball back they look to counter as quickly as possible, but their counter attack tends to start in their own defensive third.

Thats why Everton played a strong player like Fellaini in the hole so they had the option of playing the ball upto him quickly in the air to make up the expanse of ground quickly.

At Dortmund they won the ball back high up the pitch and had no need to play the ball in the air so their player in the hole needed to have great vision and awearness and the passing ability to open up a defence with very little space thus why they used Gotze and Kagawa in that role.

So both set up in a similar shape and both played a form of counter attacking football, and apart from the no.10 they had similar type players in similar positions although a gap in quality.

But it is the tactically set up and how they go about the game that is different. One presses high up the pitch the other sits back.

And for the record i've watched a great many Dortmund games. In fact i've probably watched around 70% of their games in the last 8/9 years. I'll admit I haven't watched as many Everton games, but i've watched enough to see what Moyes tactics and set up where in those games.

19.) 28 Sep 2013
Snappy
Have a look at our discussion from a month ago you have just said everything I argued back then.

Your argument for Everton setting up the same as Dortmund could be made for nearly any team in the EPL.

I've seen a lot of Everton my nephew plays there they don't or never played 4-2-3-1 it was 4_4_1_1 but set up is not that important it's about tactics.
Everton played a containing game players filling space with an emphasis on not conceding.
I would argue Dortmund approach the game in almost the opposite way.
Dortmund are one of the most exciting team's in Europe to watch possession football, short game with pace a lot played through the middle.
I've never watched an Everton game and thought this is like Dortmund to be honest

20.) 28 Sep 2013
Over the years I have been so frustrated with SAFs team selection for big games, however he obviously knew when to rotate if a player wasn't fresh or going to perform. Moyes will learn that very soon!