04 Sep 2013 20:30:34
The Guardian on Woodward

1) "It is also possible that his status as the Glazers' representative on earth caused him to blanch when it came to the crunch, unwilling to risk too much of the club's money."

Some would have you believe the Glazers make all the money available, I have even seen it today on here, trying to instill into us and reassure that the money is there, it isn't the owners. There is no evidence to confirm they are willing to invest in a major way or that the money "is there" and a one person crusade on here to keep us positive about the owners doesn't wash any more.

2) Guardian again "And amid the Championship Manager meets high-stakes poker shenanigans of the final hours of the transfer window, it was easy to overlook the fact that Manchester United have not shopped at the expensive end of the international market for a long time."

RVP who at £22m in last years spend, bears liitle resemblance to the Rio, Rooney statement purchases, but they were British market buys, the last major overseas purchase was Veron. The real statement buys Rio, Rooney and Veron were all pre Glazer.

We need answers as to the ambition of our club, MUST need answers, if we want our club to challenge at the highest level we must have answers. The big question is what was our real budget?

1.) 04 Sep 2013
Red Man, MU will not pay over the odds for players. That was explained to us by 002 two summers ago. This summer is proof of how stubborn the board is with this. MU were willing to buy Fellaini, spend €30m on Herrera and £12m on Baines. The cash is clearly there, but they do not want to overpay for the players sadly. I thought they would make an exception this summer, but they haven't. That is my gripe with this summer. I really thought they needed to support DM this window.

2.) 04 Sep 2013
Sydney

Redman post from the guardian below is very accurate. We just don't compete for the top players anymore and buy at the middle tier. We just use the term over the odds to justify our lack of spending.

I am so bitterly disappointed with our summer activity that until the club goes out and buys top player will never believe a word they say.

3.) 04 Sep 2013
I agree with Redman and also ed004 above.
If every United fan knows we need a top class cm I'm sure fergy did.
I don't believe all these hard luck excuses, other teams have proved that with the correct money and ambition you can buy the top players.

Syd
You say United will not pay over the odds for a player, although we just have on fellaini but you don't buy top players for market value .if United don't want to pay over the odds they won't get the best players or seriously limit the options by going for players in the last year of there contract.

4.) 04 Sep 2013
Sydney

They needed to support their new manager, this was the summer more than any other when the Glazers needed to pay up but yet again they failed and it cannot be a coincidence. I said wait until 2Sept, well look what happened.

What we need to know is, was it Woodward or the Glazers with the control of the purse and what really was the budget. The way Woodward baulked at the prices leads you towards thinking there was a strict budget, after all he must have had guidance. It doesn't excuse how it has been handled but the CEO either followed the guidance or he didn't. It would be unusual not to follow instructions and objectives.

I can only believe the money was not made available and the CEO wasn't able to deal with the prices at hand. In 2008 we sold Ronaldo for £80m, the game has moved on in transfer fee terms, pushed forward by the level set by Ronaldo's sale, yet our owners have shown no inclination to pay much more than the £25 to £30m ceiling per player. It shows our club has not moved on. This window the attitude has seen our club embarrassed and we need answers. Sitting there saying they made the money available and pushing everything on Woodward again shows a defence of the owners. Our future success depends on the answers. Bayern Munich didn't sit on their laurels but we have. It cannot continue.

5.) 05 Sep 2013
Red Man, we bid £12m for Baines and E30m for Herrera. They are fair offers which you even said so yourself. So that including the Fellaini price that we wanted to pay (£23m) adds up to £60m. Like 002 said I doubt there is a budget per se. MU will individually value a player that the manager wants and clearly they try to stick to that valuation. I hoped that we would make an exception this summer. The decisions would have been the CEO, I get the impression he wanted to be aggressive in the market to impress the owners with his penny pinching and it blew up in his face. I'm sure he would have the power to sanction a £30m move, I think Gill would have done had SAF pressed him on the matter. I think SAF would have got Oezil.

6.) 05 Sep 2013
Jred, that's the point. MU are working on market value. It's clubs like Chelsea, City, Monaco, PSG etc that are buying above market value. Arsenal had to do it this summer, I had hoped we would do it this summer, but we never. I am disappointed. I think the club got desperate with Fellaini as he was the last chance of a singing.

7.) 05 Sep 2013
Totally agree with Most people posting on such issues above.
One part of the Quote from The Guardian struck me as weird.
"the last major overseas signing was Veron"

I looked up the fees for players since Veron and the highest oversees fee since then was Anderson from Porto FC. Does this not count as major?
We paid an awful lot for him and David de Gea is the 3rd most expensive goalkeeper. Does this also not count?
Slighty confused as to what "major overseas is classed as.
Good posts by all.

8.) 05 Sep 2013
Clearly Sydney has never taken any ecomics classes. The market value is whatever someone is willing to give you for it at that moment. The market value of bale was 80 mil, the market value of Fellaini bc that's what someone was willing to pay for him. The fact remains that united seen to have fallen behind on the modern transfer market and pining for the good old days of cheap transfers is insane. I don't see the club get upset when they keep breaking sponsorship records. How can they complain about the increased cost of players while being happy about the increased revenue also seen in recent years?

9.) 05 Sep 2013
Sydney vehemently protects the Glazers by saying the money is there and puts the blame solely on Woodward. I can see through it and hope everyone else can. Why Sydney needs to protect the owners is open for everyone's opinion. The fact is if the money was there we would have spent it not just this summer but the summers before.

We have not moved forward in the market and our owners are holding us back and no amount of Sydney's defending them will make it different.

10.) 05 Sep 2013
Red Man, I have said on this page numerous times that the people who should be held accountable for this summer is the Glazers. We know they are penny pinchers, we know that they will try and save every last penny from a deal, but the money is there. Hence the £25.6m bid for Herrera and £12m Baines bids. MU were prepared to spend these amounts on these two players. Didn't YOU say we shouldn't pay more than that for Baines the other day? I hoped the club would spend on a creative midfielder this summer so I am as disappointed as you are. Now just because I do not share your view, doesn't mean I am a Glazer protector. I couldn't give a monkeys about these people. I look at the evidence and make my own mind up. Clearly we were willing to spend £37.6m on Baines and Herrera as that is what we bid.

11.) 05 Sep 2013
Red man
I agree I don't gets syds need to defend them it excuse after excuse anything but the glazers.
Last year he even tried to claim we never bought a cm because the best manager we ever had was to stubborn.
Spurs have proved any team willing to pay can get players, Monaco have proved players will move to team's not playing in the cl, city have proved players will move to Manchester, Munich have proved self sustained team's can compete at the top of the market. Even arsenal got ozil
For me all the facts point to us not looking to compete at the top of the market but instead buy potential, I think over the past 4 years rvp has been the exception to the rule, but he was in the last year of his contract.
Look at the difference with spurs and the BALE money compared to us and the ronaldo money.
It will be interesting to see how much we pay of the debt this year

12.) 05 Sep 2013
Sydney

A club with a big budget and big ambitions would have put a 100 million on the table and taken Oezil/Modric, Khedira and Di Maria from Real who were all available.

It would have addressed all our gaps and we would be favorites to win the CL and believe me they would have all come as I do not buy this thing that players don't want to play for us.

We buy in the second tier and what makes it worse is we seem to penny pinch or not participate all together when there are high potential guys available, who will cost a fortune and in many cases not available in 24 months and lose them to other clubs.

I think the club feeds us bs and either there is no money and if there is they have very little intention of spending it. The appointment of this pompous investment banker to run a football club should be enough evidence of their intentions.

13.) 05 Sep 2013
Jred, you need to grow up. I have never defended the Glazers and you and Red Man know it. You just do not like other people having a different opinion to yourselves. Spurs have spent two seasons not buying a striker because they would not invest the money. Even this summer they paid out for one when they needed two. It's the Bale money that has funded this summer's deals. Spurs wouldn't pay what was needed for Damiao, Oscar, Hulk etc etc. City wouldn't pay what was needed to get Hazard, Cavani, Falcao etc etc. Chelsea have missed out on Falcao, Cavani, Neymar etc. They didn't get a much needed second striker and a defensive midfielder like Khedira. Don't act like it's only MU who miss out on targets.

Shahram, again you are missing the point of all of this. Moyes wanted those players. He chooses the players and the club try to buy them. Also Khedira, Modric & Di Maria were not available as none of them wanted to leave. RM couldn't force them out so they had to sell Oezil (their 2nd best player) instead.

14.) 05 Sep 2013
When Sydney is losing or has lost an argument he does the "grow up" comments or calls people a child.

Fact is he defends the Glazers every day by insisting the money is there when in fact they have yet to truly invest or show enough ambition by challenging for the very best players. Like I said we raised the bar with Ronaldo and they don't like it when trying to buy. The sooner Sydney accepts what the owners are doing the better

15.) 05 Sep 2013
Syd
Yawn excuses after excuse.
I will say it once more United are not competing for the top players but are looking for potential with the exception of Rvp who we got on the cheap as he was in the last year of his contract.
You can keep on dreaming about ozil, gotze, hazard, isco, draxler.
But when the next big thing comes along I don't believe we will be in for him.
Look at our buys over the last 4/5 years Rvp stands out like a sore thumb he is the one real quality addition we have made.
Now there is nothing wrong with buying potential and developing them but over the past few years the team have lacked real quality.
And we are falling further behind in Europe.
Who was the last youth team player to really set the world alight .
Who was the last player we bought that set the world alight.
Look at our transfers over the last 4/5 year and then compare them to Munich who are the best team in Europe at the moment .
Ignore all the rumours and players we are supposedly after and look at the ones we actually bought.

16.) 05 Sep 2013
Syd

You are missing the point mate. If you are telling me that our new manager with all the players that were available this summer thought Fellaini, baines and Herrera were his first choice, I say we should sack him now and he is clueless. The reason he is looking at those players is that he has spending curbs and limits.

The players at real were all available according to a very well respected moderator and if the right money came in and the right club they would have moved. Oezil by all accounts was not available and also did not want to move but guess what rm got the right offer and made him take the move.

I still firmly believe we had no cohesive plan and both the manager and CEO were caught with their pants down.

17.) 05 Sep 2013
Sharham
Exactly, a team with a big budget and big ambitions would of got the job done . I 100% believe top players will come to United if the money is right

18.) 05 Sep 2013
Guys, to be fair, I think Syd is only saying the money is there.

Whether they actually want to spend it or not, is a totally different point.

I think we can all see that they don't.

19.) 05 Sep 2013
Steviek

Sydney just refuses to acknowledge there is money but for the second tier of the transfer market and not top tier players.

20.) 05 Sep 2013
Steviek

Shahram just refuses to acknowledge that these are our manager's targets, not the owner's targets.

Baines was the number one target for LB.

Fellaini was always going to be the number one target for midfield muscle.

Fabregas was his first target for a creative midfielder. He wasn't available so Moyes wanted Herrera.

21.) 05 Sep 2013
Shahram, hang on a minute, was Cesc Fabregas not a top tier player? Well, while he was 'apparently' happy to join us, did we not try to sign him? £25m to test the water, then a £34m offer? He is a top tier player who played in the position we were looking to strengthen. I never said Moyes' first choice targets were Herrera, Baines & Fellaini. I clearly said his first choice targets were Baines, Cesc & Fellaini. I think it's pretty obvious that they were. Herrera was an alternative to Cesc. Are you seriously telling me you do not believe Cesc, Baines & Fellaini was Moyes' first choice targets?

Red Man, you show me one shred of evidence that the money isn't there to buy the players that Moyes wants then you can say I am "losing an argument". The truth is there is no evidence that the cash isn't there to buy players. But there is plenty of evidence to suggest there is cash there one of which being that we made bids for Herrera & Baines totaling £37.6m. We know a large bid was made for Khedira which was conformed by 002 and Khedira himself. We made bids for Cesc until it was clear he was ****ing us around to get playing time at Barcelona in a WC year.

Chelsea failed to sign Khedira, are they not backed by their owner? Chelsea failed to get De Rossi. What makes me laugh is you said on here a week ago that we shouldn't pay more than £12m for Baines. But when we don't you say it's because we have no money.

22.) 05 Sep 2013
"Exactly, a team with a big budget and big ambitions would of got the job done . I 100% believe top players will come to United if the money is right"

I agree with this so I am struggling to see what you are getting at. As I have said for the millionth time, I was hoping MU would make and exception this summer and pay over the odds to get a creative midfielder. But they never. They made fair offers for Baines and Herrera, but I hoped they would pay over the odds like they did with Fellaini.