05 Feb 2014 11:46:33
Wanted to post this as a reply to one of the replies on my post down the page, but I think it deserves a separate post. (Keep in mind I fully understand that we should be playing better than what we are, would have preferred Pep or Klopp, but I don't think we would be higher than 4th with any other manager than Sir Alex)

Now what I see is that Sir Alex believed that some of these players were better than what they actually are, he bought them and had full confidence in them, and they have now struggled to adapt to the fact that a new manager does not believe that and is seeing them for exactly how good they are, and who wants to change a lot of the team which has come to the end of a cycle and build his own. After all, Rooney, Jones, RVP and Carrick (when fit), Januzaj, and De Gea have performed up to standard imo and haven't shown "the moyes effect". I don't think any of us have been fully happy with the rest of the squad for some time now.

What I am extremely concerned about is people constantly trying to put a Moyes spin on everything that has gone wrong. A few years ago we had Carrick as the scapegoat, now its Moyes.

You can try and put a nice Moyes spin on it but we have needed a major rebuilding or rather "retooling" for some time now. Weren't a lot of us going on about it last January and for a time after that, even when Sir Alex was here? But now its all about the manager, after all these are the defending champions.

Moyes or no Moyes, a lot of deadwood needs to be cleared, a lot of the players have come to the end of their careers or just don't live up to the standards required, and need to be moved on. Some need to be made squad players rather than first team players.

A lot on here had clearly made up their mind up on Moyes even before a ball was kicked this season, so i'm not surprised with some of the reaction.

I would really love to see how any manager other than Sir Alex (and Moyes) would have got this team playing. How Cleverley would have suddenly started commanding the midfield, or how we would be using high pressing tactics and blistering counter attacks without the required midfield and defensive pace required to cover the areas it leaves us exposed to, how Evra would suddenly have started defending which he hasn't been doing for 3 years now, or how the slow and injury prone center backs would have made a rock solid defense. How the wingers who haven't crossed a decent ball for ages would have suddenly been playing better or how the "other manager" would have dealt with the injury crisis or the limited options available in midfield (being even more limited from injuries) and been the "master tactician" without the required players being there to execute them.

Everyone was in agreement at the end of last season I think that if our opponents strengthen their squads which they have, and we don't 4th is what we would be looking at, but now it seems our problems are of course down to the manager, the players and injuries have nothing to do with it, they are the defending champions after all.

Rant over.

1.) 05 Feb 2014
Spot on.

2.) 05 Feb 2014
Good post Redfaith, Moyes inherited a team in decline that had over-performed for a few years because of SAF's motivational powers.
A major rebuilding is needed and, hopefully, that will at least start in the Summer. There are some concerns about Moyes which remain unanswered- namely last Summers transfer fiasco and why he bought Fellaini. The complete change of back room staff was handled poorly and Moyes's motivational and tactical skills are not yet proven. To blame lots of our losses on bad luck is unacceptable. There must also be concern about his handling of some players such as Zaha and Kagawa. He gets my support until the end of next season but, hopefully, we'll see real progress before then.

3.) 05 Feb 2014
I am not blaming Moyes directly, I am merely saying the change of manager has had a bad effect on the side this season. They look nervous and they are severely lacking confidence. No doubt we need to strengthen and no one is saying this current team should be topping the EPL, but the current side should be doing better than they are. This side is underachieving massively this season. The players for whatever reason are not playing well.

If the players were capable of playing better under SAF, then they are capable of playing better under Moyes.

4.) 05 Feb 2014
Redfaith
Excellent post imo a good analysis of the team.
A refreshing break from a lot of normal rubbish

5.) 05 Feb 2014
REDFAITH – Your post seems more of a considered point of view than a rant and, for what it’s worth, here is mine. I agree with you that the squad has needed an overhaul for quite some time. In my opinion SAF could’ve done a lot worse than retire after the 07/08 CL win because there has been a steady decline in our quality since then. Perhaps his desire to win a 3rd CL title clouded his own judgement but I certainly think his acquisitions became a little more hit and miss towards the end of his tenure. That said he thoroughly earned the right to decide himself when to call it a day…and IMO has earned the right to go to OT and watch as many matches as he pleases.
When I heard of his impending retirement, yes I was gutted and sad but I was also really excited too. For me this heralded an exciting new dawn in the chapter of our great clubs history. Would it be Jose (not for me), Pep (no as he was already assigned to Bayern), would it be Klopp or Ancelotti? Managers each with a track record of playing modern, expansive football. Managers who have won league titles, managers who have won cups both domestic and European. Managers with experience in the demands of managing behemoth clubs and the pressures associated with them. If I was feeling this excited imagine how excited the players must’ve felt. An opportunity to develop their game further. A chance to learn more expansive ways to play. A manager who would be able to bring in some big name signings and energise them and lead them to greater victory.
But no! We appointed David Moyes. The underwhelming deflation I felt was palpable. Once again, the players must have felt similarly to this. United had hired a man with no history of winning league titles or cup wins and no European experience. A manager whose only success to date is not being totally rubbish(although he’s working hard to change this). His stats make for OK reading. He wins more than he loses. His teams are difficult to play against but they are also quite uninspiring to watch. This is not a young manager learning his trade, a manager who is in development and showing signs of what might come (even this would’ve been exciting to see). Moyes is a very experience EPL manager who has been managing a single club for a very long time with absolutely no success. (I don’t count not failing as success btw). So yes I must be honest and say my mind was probably made up before he arrived. But hey I’m fickle so my mind could easily be changed.
Unfortunately to date ALL of my fears in his inability have been manifest in both our performances on the pitch (even some off of it) and in the results and up to the 5th February 2014 I have seen absolutely no signs of any improvement whatsoever. So what am I to think, why would my view of him change? Why shouldn’t I lay all of our ills at his feet?
One thing we can both agree on though is in the first sentence of your penultimate paragraph. “I would really love to see how any manager other than Sir Alex (and Moyes) would have got this team playing”. ME TOO Considered opinion over!

6.) 05 Feb 2014
Agree we are playing very badly and showing nerves and a lack of team spirit. Injuries and pure bad luck (Moyes should not ever use this excuse) early in the season have not helped. I still think Moyes has made some strange team choices. We all know we need a huge rebuild, if only to cover for retirements and aging players. Moyes in fact any manager should get 2 years to prove themselves.

7.) 05 Feb 2014
Unitedred71, now that is a good post. Personally I think Moyes inherited a good enough squad to be where the likes of Chelsea are now at this time of the season, but the players have just gotten worse. They are playing poorly under Moyes and if we are honest with ourselves, did any of the MU squad want Moyes to take over? I doubt it very much. So if the players are not convinced for one reason or another, then that will show on the field. And it is showing on the field. Moyes' football is uninspiring, he hadn't won a bean and I think this along with the negative football and his harsh dinosaur training sessions have not convinced the MU players. There is a reason we are in the position we are in and it is not down to the quality of our squad. This team can play better, why aren't they?

8.) 05 Feb 2014
With out Rooney, Carrick and Rvp United are left with a fairly average team when compared with the likes of city and co.

Which players played great last season but have been poor this season.

Everyone was moaning LAST season about tactics everybody wanted to change to a more fluid formation.

Everybody said LAST season we needed a CB, a LB, 2 Cm and a wide man.

What's really changed .
This year we have been with out rvp Rooney and Rvp take them 3 out of last year's team I would of also had problem .
Also add the fact that city Chelsea arsenal and liverpool have all improved from last season.

While other teams have improved we still haven't addressed the exact same problems we had last year.

The team that wins the title this year will be a better team than won it last year .

9.) 05 Feb 2014
Spot on with your comment and views. Exactly what I have thought for a long time.
We can only judge DM next season once we see who he brings in this summer and who he clears out. Then we can judge him on how the team play and how successful we are.
A lot of people are raising questions about Man Utd's style of play under DM and this might be a valid point but we need to give him time. He may come tothe conclusion himself and bring in a tactial coach like SAF did. Soem of the comments on DM suggest that the man is probablystupid which we all know he is not. You only become a PL manager by being tough but versatile and adapting when you need too. Those that don't simply won't make it.

10.) 05 Feb 2014
That should be
We have been without Carrick rvp, and Rooney , take them 3 out if last year's team and we would of also had a problem.
Don't want syd giving me hard time again.

I don't think we played great football last year I'm also not sure which players where amazing last year but have been poor this year under moyes.

11.) 05 Feb 2014
Im not a moyes lover but while he is manager I will support the team as normal, but I still don't think he will be here long term, and if we don't beat a very poor fulham side on sunday then he might find the fans patience worn out.one of his biggest mistakes was pulling out of the herrara deal in the summer .that signing would of made a big difference to our season, not challenging the top 3 but playing a lot better than we have.

12.) 05 Feb 2014
Syd
How many points do you think a fully fit rvp is worth

13.) 05 Feb 2014
Grund, agree with nearly all of that. I will give Moyes 18 months more to prove himself, but I think the players are struggling under him. It should sort itself out eventually, but it maybe too late for this season.

14.) 05 Feb 2014
It depends on how the rest of the team are playing. If the players were more confident and playing better than they have been this season, then he is worth a lot more points, but if the rest of the team are playing the way they are currently, then I don't think RvP, Mata, Rooney etc will make much of a difference. Like I said, I think our biggest obstacle this season is mental. Sooner or later the side will click into place and we will start playing better. Then we will see the best of Mata, Rooney & RvP.

15.) 05 Feb 2014
The problem isn't what Moyes inherited the problem is his lack of knowledge on A working for a top team and B knowing how to deal with those pressures.

He brought the familiarity with out with the old and in with the new coaching staff and I see why, to rid the place of SAF and stamp the Moyes way. Has ANY other top coach done that? Jose, pep, ancelloti, blanc, pelligrini etc

No they realise the importance of continuity and slowly change it up. Moves got it the wrong way round. It should have been the playing staff out in droves and keep the back room together. How ANYONEin football needs a season or 6 months to judge, that ando, clevs, young etc etc are not good enough is beyond me, just another excuse to hide behind for the summer fiasco.

I find it funny that so many were against Jose for instance indicating he would demand 150m to get his own players. And what have we got so far? Almost 70m spent and another 100 needed just to get us back playing decent stuff never mind competing and even that's not guaranteed as moyes has never played the way we are used to playing.

A few on here were saying this summer should have been the big overhaul and even more including others who said it would never happen are predicting it for this summer. But even as a non football manager the fact there is a WC this summer, Ayer hols after it, interrupted pre seasons and looking likely no CL when to you all would have made sense to do it? Last summer to make a massive statement and get everyone on board OR use excuse of needing a year to look at who is needed or not and during that time be ripped to pieces for the crap job that's being done aswell as losing legue title and possibly CL spo, losing the confidence of supporters and players weekly and pinning all the hopes on a summer of transfers to be done in less than a month after a WC?

Amateurish to say the least and the players can see that. Best described as a shambles from day one.

16.) 05 Feb 2014
Syd
Who do you mean by the rest, which players have gone from world beaters last year to poor this year?

17.) 05 Feb 2014
I don't think RvP, Mata, Rooney etc will make much of a difference.

Sydney

Then who do you think will

18.) 05 Feb 2014
I am saying the team as a whole are not gelling, they are not playing well together. When they start clicking we will see the best of the better players. We need the players to stay fit, then after a run of games together they will start to play better and show some consistency. We need strengthening obviously, but we can still play much better than this.

19.) 05 Feb 2014
Syd
I don't think there is a single United fan who doesn't think we can play better than this

20.) 05 Feb 2014
Well what are you whinging about then? That is all I have been saying. A large part of our problem IMO is mental. I think the player's confidence is shot.

21.) 05 Feb 2014
Lol
Of course it was syd

22.) 05 Feb 2014
I agree with Jred, we are key man dependent and more about great individual performances than a team who plays well as a group and looks a great unit. It has been like this for a few years now and this year we are not getting those great individual performances.

23.) 05 Feb 2014
Many sanguine arguments can be made about the injuries, unlucky breaks, quality of the squad inherited and performance of the players. Yes, it's probably not fair to pass final judgement until he assembles 'his' squad. Yes, he does deserve some time. However, what is of grave concern is that our season has got progressively worse and I cannot see him even remotely trying to halt the slide. Game after game he sets out our stall in precisely the same manner. Surely one must at least try something different? Same applies during a game - no change of style or tactics when we are being outplayed. If he does have a vision then I would just like to see an inkling of what it is. It simply cannot be right to merely serve up more of the same each time.

24.) 05 Feb 2014
Shahram, I agree with that too.