Manchester United Banter Archive March 18 2014

18 Mar 2014 18:53:35
Hi question for the eds. Lots of people on this site asking for a new manager like klopp etc. Have you eds any knowledge/info about if some of the names mentioned would be interested. I'm guessing not but thought I would ask as respect your info is better than the majority of us. Is there any rumours of managers being sounded out should the glazers pull the plug on moyes?

{Ed002's Note - Manchester United has a manager. Take a look ar what happened to Ferguson in the first couple of years.}

Ed002, you may know more than I about the finances, but I doubt the club can afford to give Moyes 3-5 years to establish himself. There is already talk in the gutter press of sponsors being unsettled by the prospect of being associated with a team that's no longer a top competitor. Ferguson inherited a club struggling for an identity and he did so in a different financial environment.

{Ed002's Note - Ferguson oversaw a transition and created a new side, but it took some years. Moyes has inherited an aging side that needs a significant refresh - and that cannot happen overnight. Another three windows will see the work completed. The plan is that Moyes will do that.}

Ahhhh ed 2 you must remember three things.

One, SAF took over a side second bottom of the league and a sleeping giant.

Two, SAF had proven he could win titles and in Europe before he arrived.

Three, moyes has taken over a title winning side (lucky or not) and turned them into Everton.

Is that progression?

I understand giving people that are winners time, like say for instance Jose would get with a trophy less season this year as you are in transition but we don't have Jose (mores the pity) we have a seemingly bumbling wreck who could take part in the chuckle brothers show while part time taking charge of the United team!

Surely with all your footy knowledge you can now say who else was realistically in the frame, as if they were then they were clearly 'other' choices of SAF?

{Ed002's Note - I am not sure if Nicky Butt is available to come back and strengthen the team or not. I explained previously that Laurent Blanc was the other manager that was on the shortlist. Guardiola was approached by a number of clubs during his sabbatical but he was never a viable options for any EPL side. Laurent's career path took him out of the reckoning, although he was to at least one party (an ex-player at MU tasked with evaluating options) heavily involved in the process was first choice.}

Sorry Ed02 I have to strongly disagree the situation is completely different than when SAF took over what was then a losing poor drink ridden first team and a club without a winning mentality. The older generation reds I know acknowledge the major difference. Add to that SAF had a far far superior CV from Aberdeen so we knew SAF had the ability and we believe it is considerably different with Moyes. These are the thoughts of the older fans ones who also remember Wilf McGuiness. Dismiss our opinions if you like and I acknowledge only the board really matter but Moyes does not have support and in his first two years SAF did

{Ed002's Note - Maybe if the team drank more it would help?}

I guess all Ed002 can comment on is what he knows and what he knows is MU plan to rebuild the team over an 18 month period with Moyes in charge. Obviously things can change, but for now that's the plan.

Personally I think he will be given another season, but if we are struggling come November time, I think the club will look to other options. MU did NOT expect this epic fall from grace.

Without doubt the two comparisons are different. SAF is a winner and was a winner when he joined MU. Also MU were not reigning champions and a dominant force when SAF turned up. Moyes took over a league winning side.

My argument is I do not believe Moyes is the right man for the build. Simply because he cannot get the best out of the players he's currently got. I have seen no improvement over the season and it will only get worse.

If that is at all possible.

I think some are missing the point . It would seem that the board etc have identified that this is an ageing team that is in need of a rebuild.
This can not be achieved in 6 month, rightly or wrongly moyes will be given time to do this

I think the plan is to give time and money but if we carry on losing the pressure from the fans may prove too much because a lot of are seriously peed off not just with moyes with whole set up. They won't want to pay him 20 mil pay off instead of lining their pockets! Regarding Fergie at the beginning as red man said different situation Fergie had already shown how good he was going to be at st miren and at Aberdeen . He had broken the Glasgow stranglehold and won a lot of trophies a cup winners cup and super cup on top of domestic success . I don't give me the no money rubbish at Everton Wigan won the cup last year for F's sake!

To be fair in the few posts I have made I have always said moyes needs time and have also posted about rodgers/klopp etc needing more than a season to get the team playing as they wish. I understand ed 02 response and it is totally valid but my question was more to see if any contingency is in place.

18 Mar 2014 21:30:14
I definitely think that we need to start Kagawa tomorrow. We need something to create that spark. I hope we try the diamond with the two up front, Kagawa behind and then a three of Carrick, Fellaini and Cleverley or Giggs.

So drop Mata

18 Mar 2014 22:09:34
mata can't play cl

Isn't Mata cup tied?

I expect we will play 4-2-3-1 again tomoz and I am hoping its Raphael, vidic, Jones, evra, Carrick, fellaini, welbeck, Kagawa, young with Rooney as striker(although he needs to be told to stay up top). That said in reality we will probably see the same back 6 as above with welbeck/rooney/valencia and rvp up top. If so I would expect Valencia to hug the touchline, Rooney drop deep and rvp get no service whatsoever.i so hope I am wrong but think we may be in for another anus horribulus

18 Mar 2014 20:04:55
21 March 1984, nearly 30 years to the day in another lifetime, however I was on the Stretford End that night as Stapleton rifled the ball home for the third goal having seen Bryan Robson give one of the great performances in a United shirt. Despite the great Maradona and Schuster in the Barcelona team we overturned a two nil deficit. It was during a time when Atkinson had us playing decent if generally inconsistent football. We need a Robson performance from someone tomorrow, perhaps Rooney will come of age to save his manager on the night. We are not playing Barcelona so we have a decent chance if we are focused but need to be inspired, tight at the back and play with good tempo, so unlike the football we have been playing. Perhaps the Greeks will bear gifts and that will make it possible.

Don't put your mortgage on it red man! I was in the stretford end too that might . Fell on the floor still going mad when the third goal went in . Couldn't get up for ages with people on top of us. Had half an hour then to sweat it out before the final whistle. On the pitch after!

I was in the Stretford Paddock that night. Amazing atmosphere. Let us hope for the same tomorrow.

Strange that I can never remember a game where not winning might be a blessing in disguise with it bringing the managerial decision to a head.

Already lots of speculation for interim manager being a hot topic including

Giggs
Neville (G) - why I had to indicated which one I have no idea!
Keano
Fergie
Robbo
Mike Phelan
Sven (where is he nowadays)
Eric - now there is a thought.

Any other nominations for potential interim manager?

Its not happening so why speculate, david moyes as much as i'd love to see him go is going knowhere!

Red Man do you remember the semi against juventus . Our midfield was destroyed with injuries Robeson out etc Alan Davies played and scored and I thought Remi Moses played fantastic in midfield and had to be more like a mid general rather than a destroyer . I thought we were unlucky in second leg in Turin rossi scored with about 2ins left they were starting to lose it before that it would have been extra time .

That was a great night. I was in what we now call saf stand and Bryan Robson gave one of the best displays of midfield drive I've seen. The atmosphere that night was unbelievable.
Good luck to the reds tomorrow.

Pancho

I remember less about the semifinal although I was there at OT, than the Barcelona night, but do remember little Alan Davies on that night. I think the Barcelona night overshadowed everything and after we won ended up in the Bass Drum in Stretford.

We can do it tonight but need a different mentality, press them in and hope pressure tells. If they score first I think that could be curtains though.

Yeah it was an amazing night even though we didn't win anything I rank it up there with the night in Barcelona in 99 it terms how mad I went during and after - bloody hell the bass drum!

Pancho

Lucky enough to be at Barca 84 and in Barca 99 both great nights, probably the two best I have ever experienced
Yes The Bass Drum in 84, not sure we knew what to do after that night.

18 Mar 2014 19:12:09
Liverpool fan. Not coming to gloat about Sunday but to ask you United fans a question. Speaking with a few mates who support your lot and I wondered if u think if Fergie came out of retirement and took back over the reigns next season,, would you fancy your chances for the league? Remember you'll have no Europe to turn his head aswel
Personally I think with Him back you'd walk the league again next season but my United mates disagree? Thoughts?

18 Mar 2014 20:06:35
It won't happen, but I would trust him with 100m before I would trust Moyes with it.
Nobody will walk the league for the next few years IMO.
Because any season city or Chelsea don't win it they will invest heavily again for the next campaign trying to ensure success and they will win it regularly pool and arsenal are currently best placed to compete with progressive coaches with great ability to spot a player and improve them considerably.
United and spurs are in a state of transition and the next moves are crucial

The league is definitely over, if Fergie came back I fancy our chances in Europe.

Without doubt there would be a short term improvement across many aspects. It would raise a major issue with Rooney again and that wouldn't be good due to the short term nature of it. It could only ever be short term given SAFs age and I don't think we should look short term with the next full time appointment. After the debacle of Moyes we need the right manager to inspire and lead us into a new era, one that plays 21 century football, my vote would be Klopp now and he is one deserving of time.

I am pretty sure Fergie won't be back also I don't want him back, we need to wean ourselves off his t*t because if he did come back it would only be till the summer
After Sunday I do doubt Moyes just because of his naive team and formation, but also I see he is at least trying to be more attacking but the squad is lacking bottle

Lfc. fan here- maybe if moyse was signed 2-3 years ago -understudy to the boss - learnt the utd way -methods- mentality etc- slowly took over the job bit by bit with fergies know how- guiding hand and motivation skills- moyse might have grown into the job - it IS after all an almighty big job with almighty big shoes to fill .As for the greeks - I see you winning - going through?- Not so sure

18 Mar 2014 17:45:29
I have always really wanted DM to succeed but there are 3 areas that are pretty damning and these faults can only be laid at the feet of DM and his coaching squad.
1) lack of leadership. be a man and make the tough calls that need to be made. he has been faffing around trying to keep everybody happy, vidic should not be captain anymore yet he is just ignoring the situation.
2) no set formation or style of play. the players obviously don't know what they are trying to achieve, players have been playing all over the place in several positions in several formations and all I see is long balls or get it wide and lump it into the box. its a disgrace after 7/8 months.
3) playing players out of position.
I don't care how good vidal gundogan reus etc are if they are not coached properly and set up knowing what they need to achieve on the pitch and they are not given clear direction and leadership and they are not played in their best positions they will not be a success
Ken

I totally agree Ken Fletcher should be captain we should set up a good formation and players should be played in proper position example Kagawa and Mata

Sorry that's the same as Fergie did he didn't play them in their rightful positions either, plus how can you play Rooney, Mata and Kagawa in the no.10 position

18 Mar 2014 16:48:30
Banter please Eds


Richard Branson has had his offer to sponsor Man United declined .

In a club statement , a spokesman said " We feel it would not be appropriate to wear 'Virgin' on our shirts as we're getting ****ed every week!"


Couldn't resist.

What an unusual way to kick us when we're down.

Like it!

18 Mar 2014 15:55:54
I never thought in my lifetime that I'd ever feel sorry for Utd. After Sunday, I watched DM's press conference today waiting for a reaction, a response, a sense of belief, of passion. A leader of a worldwide club that would have every player and fan ready for action, picking up their swords on the way to the battlefield.
What I sensed was a man full of hope, hoping the good players would play well, hoping the fans would drag them over the line, hoping the Greeks would come over and lie down as they have on 11 previous occasions on English soil. Hoping for a great night at Old Trafford.
If he put as much certainty into his rallying cry as he did into the defense of his 6 year contract and his vision of where the club is going, he might be more believable.
The only consolation that you fans can take from this is that he has a plan and he knows when he is going to implement it. For footballs sake, regardless of rivalry I hope he never gets the chance too. Good luck in the match,
Simon

Simon,

Nice post, we all see it, we as fans need to voice our opinion as much as possible.
However the club needs to sort themselves out, they are sitting back and letting this happen its crazy how quiet they have been. i'm starting to think they won't say nothing at all, and just let this drivel Moyes keeps coming out with happen.

18 Mar 2014 13:29:14
Just came across this on "a sporting website":

"This time last season, David Moyes' Everton had 48 points from 29 games, having scored 46 goals & conceded 35. This season, David Moyes' Manchester United side have 48pts from 29 games, having scored 46 goals and conceded 34 . "

Perhaps Moyes is doing his best, and that may have sufficed at Everton (no disrespect), but in the context of Manchester United it is simply not good enough.

Exactly, you cannot blame a dog for being a dog.

Lost me there Syd. Think you're barking up the wrong tree.

If Moyes was my dog I would have had him put down by now. Put us out of our misery.

18 Mar 2014 12:16:02
Sat waiting for a client so thought I'd post.

I thought that I would try and put on paper where I think we would be were SAF still in charge. Firstly I think this squad would be playing much better football. We would either be operating primarily with the diamond or as a 4-2-3-1. I imagine the later is more likely. We would of bagged Garay, Strootman, Thiago and Di Maria and would of probably got Coentrao or a left back of that nature. That immediately strengthens the team. Rooney would not be a Manchester United player and Kagawa would be playing regularly now behind RVP - probably being brilliant. Of course, we may of moved for Mata because he always liked a world class buy when was going but we may not.

Considering how we ran away with last years title I expect that we would still be on top. Rafael would be in top form still, Vidic would likely be staying and playing well whilst RVP would still be the prolific, happy and fit striker that he was. Di Maria would be starting on the left and hopefully Januzaj would of had this chance. The midfield pair would be Strootman and Thiago - both of whom have excelled at their respective clubs.

How do you think this team would be doing? For me it would be in the top 2 and pushing everyone all the way. Our opposition has improved but we would of matched that improvement. We would of had a natural number 10, better quality wide men, a faster defence and a more dynamic midfield.

I really think that's a very optimistic view of a hypothetical situation Fresh mate. I believe we'd be in and around 4th spot but our frailties would have been exploited by the opposition much more than last season. Garay and Strootman would most likely be in the team, but I don't think Thiago and certainly not Di Maria would be in red jerseys. Rooney would probably still be here and I honestly think we'd be operating a 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1. Without doubt we'd be playing more attractive football, but I could never have envisaged SAF making that many changes both in terms of personnel and tactics.

We hadn't play attractive football for a couple of years under fergy.
We hadn't addressed the cm or lb issues for years.
But if fergy had stayed everything would be perfect

If Fergie had stayed we wouldn't be in 7th place. We were not playing exciting football and haven't done since 2009 IMO, but we were creating and scoring several chances.

I think SAF knew he had a lot of work to do and that a new side would need to be built. That would only have been 4 or 5 signings. Rooney would definitely not be here, his problem was with SAF. Kagawa was slowly being introduced into the number 10 role which he would be in now.

This season rvp has played only 15 league games and scored 11 goals . Now when you take in to account he was either carrying an injury or returning from injury in many of them games that's impressive in my book.
You have to wonder what difference a fully fit match sharp rvp would make to this team .
Or how many extra points we would have with one of the best ever managers of all time in charge.

Maybe if Moyes hadn't thrown out RvP's training plan and made him take part in the teams hardcore training he implemented then maybe we would have had a fully fit RvP like we had last year when he was allowed to manage his body in his own way. Just a thought.

It wasn't like some of us mentioned that Moyes training methods could have a negative effect on some players as well as a positive effect on others.

Shappy
Is everything in the world moyes fault?

Of course not Jred, but seeing as its job to manage the team the players and the club all the problems currently at the club can be laid at his door. Of course he may not be the cause of these problems but it is his job to solve those problems, and as yet he hasn't managed to solve any problems at the club but has managed to create a few more problems.

Hardly a ringing endorsement is it?

The fact is Arsene Wenger allowed RvP to manage his body his own way during his last season at Arsenal as a final throw of the dice to see if he could remain fit, and it worked. He then moved to our club and Sir Alex looked at the situation and decided that is was best to allow RvP to continue his own fitness regime as it worked for him, and this resulted in him having a fantastic first season at our club with him hardly missing a game.

Then David Moyes came into the club and he decided he knew better than RvP as well as Arsene Wenger and Sir Alex and he told RvP that he would no longer be in charge of his own fitness but must take part in Moyes own training programme which is heavily based on fitness and pushing players bodies to the limit.

How has that worked out for RvP this year? Oh yes he has been injured for the majority of it with constant niggling injuries.

How pray tell is that not David Moyes fault? He has ignored the decisions made by Wenger and Sir Alex and did things his way. But why would you want to copy the ideas set out by two of the leagues most successful managers when you are so much more successful than them. Oh wait no how many trophies has Moyes won more than Wenger and Sir Alex?

Moyes is a decent bloke and a decent manager, but he is far below the standard needed to be successful at the top of the game and if we want to be one of the teams at the top of the game then we need a manager who is one of the best in the world, can you honestly look at Moyes and see him being one of the top 10 managers in the world? I can't no matter how much time we give him. Sad but true.

Jred, yes it is.The Crimean crisis, the disappearance of flight MH 370, the deaths of Bob Crow and Tony Benn and the recent floodings and my bloody shed falling down are all Moyes' fault but mainly it is United's abject, dismal and joyless performances which I blame Moyes for

Shappy
Did rvp not injury his foot on international duty.
The injury he had over Xmas was a recurrence of the one he had at arsenal.
Was it due to training methods? I honestly don't know, do you or is it just an other example of blaming moyes for everything?

We disagreed over the moyes appointment in the summer you where adamant that moyes was a good signing and that Everton played like Dortmund, I take it you have changed your mind.

The whole everything is moyes fault is starting to sound very similar to the everything is Rooney fault last season.

I don't think any of this is Moyes fault, it's the owner's fault for choosing him. Moyes is doing the best he can.

Jred, I felt Moyes deserved a chance, he is a student of German football and he had tried to model his teams on similar concepts to Dortmund, all be it he played a more defensive version. I felt this was because he didn't have the creative players and was playing the strengths of the players he had available.

It appears I was wrong and he played a defensive style because that is what he feels most comfortable with.

Well he has been given a chance with better players and instead of him being brought up to the standard of the club he has brought the club down to his standard which is just unacceptable, which now means its time to end this Moyes experiment before he brings the club too far down. If we let him build the club in his image then it could cost 300-400m and 4/5 years to rebuild the club back to the top. But if we cut him loose now, then we could get someone in and cut the rebuild to being just a year or two.

When you are the manager, the leader you are accountable for the performance and results of the team you lead. Responsibility can be delegated but accountability cannot. Moyes is accountable for the performance and lack of direction in the club and the team. In many big clubs the manager follows the direction of the club but at OT the manager needs to set the direction and lead his troops into battle. All we get from Moyes is the "going to try and make it difficult" comments and it isn't good enough. He can't pass accountability, he can't delegate it and now it is time for him to accept the accountability that comes with a big job.

Moyes vs Fergie is something you just can't compare but Everton never played attractive football under Moyes where as under Fergie we played not attractive but effective football as to say summing it up Moyes = rubbish Fergie=effective

Shappy
R u having a laugh.
He has been given a chance?
He has been given 6 month .
The team needs rebuilt has had injuries to key players and the summer transfer window was a joke . ( not moyes fault )
And don't forget the massive effect losing fergy was going to have on the squad or how difficult being the man who replaces fergy was going to be.

I disagreed with you in the summer I never though moyes was right for united but I'm prepared to give him a chance to prove me wrong.
Has he really been given long enough

Jred
Take a step back. Right now Moyes is taking the club backwards and out of contention. Next season we are going to have to see an inspired team improve points collection by 20 plus from where we are and new players alone won't achieve that. Right now we lack inspiration and that comes from the top, appointing him was a massive risk and mistake, allowing him to drive us into next season having spent the reserves is actually close to madness given what we are seeing. What we are seeing is the sum of his skill level, it is what he knows, he doesn't have the European or winning knowledge and we are asking him to learn on the job. In the old days they were called YTS and that is almost what we put in charge, in relative terms. Has he been given enough time? Too much and much damage has been done to our reputation. It isn't lost if and it is a big if we appoint a real manager very soon. Next Christmas and the bigger mess made by Moyes may be too late to persuade a top manager to come in to put it all right again. Does he really look in his depth? No, he has to go now

18 Mar 2014 21:35:35
Jred mate have you even watched any of his press confrences recently?

He looks so out of his depth its no longer funny, he has no answers to the problems, and he is drowning.

He needs to be put out of his misery for his own good as much as ours.

Redman
I wouldn't of went for moyes but now that we have he needs time as it is a massive job.
You made your mind up the moment he was appointed

Shappy
So your basing it on his press conference now

Jred

I don't deny it, I have always believed he was and is totally the wrong man for the job. I posted some time before he was even appointed that he should never be Manchester United manager after watching a Liverpool Everton game where Moyes rested key players in an important game and suffered humiliation against his major rivals. I also analysed his tactics when bringing Everton to OT, basically what Kevin Sheedy said, hump it up to Fellaini playing off the front and play from there.
Time won't make any difference just take us deeper into crisis. New players may improve results slightly but I am willing to bet we won't win major prizes under him, it's Dave Sexton all over again.

18 Mar 2014 11:13:08
Moyes only hope of turning it around is to spend millions in summer, get world class midfielders and left back and things will start to get better.
Surely anybody could do that though, being a manager is about getting the best out of what players you have. He can't do that. If its just throwing money at the problem then we are no different to chelsea and city.
I like the guy, most seem to, but he is blatantly not good enough for this post and never will be. Its just a matter of time before he is gone now, how long they are willing to put up with it before they pull the plug.
I hope not but it looks like we won't get through in cl, and then a loss to city at home would surely be the end. There are no excuses any more for the poor football, tactics and results that we are getting. Championship winning squad with over 60 million added to it and a wonder kid breaking through. 7th and out of cups simply nowhere near good enough.
SAF was a great manager, one of the best ever but that doesn't have to mean he is good at picking managers. He got it wrong and he needs to admit that, the sooner the better.

No matter what MU players or Moyes says, it is not all hunky-dory behind the scenes, far from it. It's a mess and most of us fans are not naive enough to think otherwise, despite a MU PR cover-up attempt. Look at the players we have: De Gea, Jones, Vidic, Carrick, Fellaini, Adnan, Mata, Rooney & Van Persie. We should not be in 7th place with these players. Sure they have not all been fit and Mata only signed in January, but even when they have played together there is no real teamwork. As a MU fan I have never seen us go into a season creating 2-3 chances per a game. It's negative tactics and the players clearly do not want to play this way. Under SAF only last season we were creating 10+ good chances per a game. We were not playing to the best of our ability last season, but we were MUCH better. The is only one difference and that's the manager. It was the wrong choice. For me Moyes isn't anymore qualified than Pulis or Lambert. None of them have won anything.

I don't think there is any saving Moyes. We have players that teams would give anything for in RVP, Rooney, Mata, De Gea etc and he still can't make it work. The tactics are clueless and I hear the training is even worse. No one is happy and they will get him out. Giggs as caretaker seems the best solution to me until we can sort something more
permanent in summer.

I will be surprised if Moyes has the job for another fortnight and will be down right shocked if he lasts till June.

Moyes was chosen because he likes to stay at a club and he's British. What other reasons are there? He has always played boring football and has never guided a team to achieving anything significant. It's quite clear that his philosophy is defend first and be cagey - that is not the United philosophy and the players are clearly rebelling against this. Our way has always been that the best defence is to attack. We are too preoccupied with annulling the opposition rather than making them worry about us.

Jones can't stay fit and no one really knows what his best position is.
Vidic is about finished.
Fellaini Mata have played a handful of games and haven't settled yet.
Rvp has struggled with injuries
Carrick has been injured and isn't playing well.

There is a lot more to our current form than just the manager

I wish some fans would start being realists instead of optimists.

Optimism must surely be running out now, given what we've seen this season. Therefore, if Moyes makes it to the summer and guts our squad, selling 6-7 players or something, let's be realistic and admit we might sign some really underwhelming lads.

Why would Kroos want to join a team in crisis with no CL football, whose manager has clearly lost his key players' confidence and can't string any kind of decent performances together?

For example. If we sell RVP and Hernandez and replace them with Will Keane from the youth setup and Mario Mandzukic, would you honestly expect better results next season?

Coz believe me, Moyes can target his Kroos, his Carvalho, his Vidal but we could be faced with players like Mandzukic instead.

Yes with the players he has he should be doing much better. I don't think there are any excuses for not doing.
He is not a bad manager, he is ok and will get a mid table prem job and do ok. But he is not the great, winning manager we need to take us forward and no matter how long we stick with him he never will be.
We, or SAF got it badly wrong. 6 year contract was silly, surely 3 or 4 and see how he did. But we have to cut our losses soon and then its just 1 bad season and we build from there. The longer he is here now the harder the next job is going to get.
The fans have been brilliant up to now, but we must be close to giving him a pat on the back, saying thanks for all your efforts, shame it didn't work out and good luck in the future.
Giggs and maybe mulenstein till end of season then all out for klopp.
Cant go on much longer.

I have spent all season defending him also jred and making excuses for how bad we are. I can't do it anymore. The football is dreadfull, we were more exciting to watch under big ron.
We will never win the league or cl under moyes, no matter how many hundreds of millions he spends. At what point do we say enough is enough. i'm there now and I hope the owners are before the end of the season.
Yes RVP hasn't been fully fit and totally on form this season. But let's remember 2 seasons ago we lost the league on goal difference to a very strong city squad. We have RVP, mata, janusaj and fellaini on top of that yet look where we are.

Will
I'm not really defending I said in the summer he wasn't the right man for the job .
However I think there is FAR more wrong with the team than moyes .
I said in the summer moyes would need time to prove he is the right man and would need to improve as a manager.
I think when you look at the quality of the squad, injuries and everything that goes with replacing fergy this was going to be a difficult year .
I just think because of all of the above it is to early to judge

"However I think there is FAR more wrong with the team than moyes"

FAR? I think SAF winning the league with this squad just a couple months before proves that this isn't the case.

Yes the team is in decline, yes we need surgery, but this squad of players should be doing much better. Moyes for me is the reason why we are not doing well. It doesn't matter who Moyes buys, if they do not respect the manager, we will not improve.

Sydney
I said all this in the summer.
At Xmas you where still predicted we would soon be top of the table and Liverpool wouldn't make top 4.
So as always you can understand why I take you views with a pinch of salt .

By the way in the summer we had a similar conversation on how the team had overperformed due to rvp and the brilliance of fergy.
And that the team was no where near as good as you where making out.

You told me I was talking rubbish but if the same players weren't challenging for the title with out fergy I might be right.

We didn't "overperform" last season at all, we are under performing this season.

Van Persie when fit will get 30+ goals a season, so he wasn't over performing last season, he is under performing this season.

SAF was a very good man manager and with another very good man manager we would be doing better this season. Our dip is mental.

Oh come on Syd, one of Fergie's biggest ever achievements was winning the title with that team. City and Chelsea in transition, Liverpool only finding their feet under Rodgers, and Arsenal nearly mutinying against Wenger, all made things a lot easier than we expected.

I agree with you on RVP, but the team as a unit, overperformed.

Moyes has made many, many mistakes since he started, but I don't think we should ever underestimate the size of the task facing him.

Stevie
SAF did well to win the league with that squad. But the year before we were without RVP and so narrowly missed out. Now with RVP, chelseas best player for last 2 years, evertons best player and a new wonder kid we are playing abysmal negative football, struggled badly in cups and are a pittyfull 7th in league. Surely the book has to stop with the manager?
He has been unlucky, and the job job was much harder than many thought but there is no excuse for what we are getting.

StevieK, Chelsea and City are still not great this season, Arsenal have been a little more consistent, but still weak against the bigger sides. Only Liverpool have improved significantly on last season, Spurs are weaker. The reason the title race is so close this season is because none of the teams stand out. Moyes will not get a better opportunity than this season. Everyone will improve next season especially City and Chelsea, but I don't think we will. I don't think we will improve significantly until the manager is changed. I think the damage is done now. I cannot see Moyes here past the summer of 2015. I was all for giving Moyes a chance, but he doesn't have the backing of the team and when that goes it's curtains. If we were any other top club in Europe now, Moyes would have been sacked by now. Deep down I expected a slight slump, I thought City would pip us this year, but what has happened is criminal. Absolutely shameful my friend.

Will
It's never that simple though .
Yes we have Mata and fellaini but they have played a handful of games and both will need time to settle.
Rvp has been injured.

Ferdy evra and vidic are 2 years older as is Carrick.
Also fergy was one of the greatest managers there has ever been
There is FAR more to it than its all moyes fault IMO

18 Mar 2014 09:34:11
Moyes picked the exact team most people wanted on Sunday and we got stuffed by the better team.
Was moyes found out or was the quality of the United first 11 found out. Probably a bit of both.
I personally think moyes should of packed the midfield and played 1 up top but he would of been slated for being defensive and if we had of got beat people would of been shouting we should of picked a more attacking team in fact the one he did.

This for me is a united team in transition for the first time in 20 plus year.
The team has got old and I think this summer we will see more key players leave than ever before.
Cm has been a major issue for years as has lb but this year so is CB.
Vidic and ferdy look finished and smalling, Jones and Evans simply aren't as good.
Carrick fellaini is an awful partnership to slow but it's prob the best we have, but I think fellaini was bought to replace Carrick . Next season I expect fellaini to start next to a more energetic, quicker cm.
I find the Mata signing a bit strange as he doesn't really fit in but he is a good player and I can only guess he was bought with a long term plan .Mata may not fit in to this team at the moment but I have a feeling he will have a different role next season.
In short I think fellaini and Mata are part of a long term plan and will be more a part of next season's team than this year's .

I think moyes will sign a CB, LB, Cm and a Lw and until he does I expect us to struggle.
Change doesn't happen over night, I would imagine the club are aware of this and are working to a long term plan.
Last year Liverpool were poor it's taken BR time to change Liverpool, moyes will need similar time.
Whether he is good enough is a different question and when you take everything in to account I think it is to early to answer .

Forgot to log in

"Moyes picked the exact team most people wanted on Sunday and we got stuffed by the better team."

Couldn't agree more, however if SAF was in charge of this same XI at the weekend, would the result had been the same? Honigstein says his sources claim that Moyes lacks people skills and "cannot lift people". Something which IMO is very critical here, players need inspiration and if they aren't getting it, it will show. This season it's showed. I am not convinced that spending £100m in the summer will be enough, I think the root of the problem is not the players, but the manager. This isn't his fault of course, it's the owner's fault for their poor choice.

Jred I don't buy into this at all.
Firstly there is a hell of a difference in the Utd squad And the Liverpool squad of last season.The main one being that we are a squad of winners and a team with a never say die attitude that was instilled by SAF.No disrespect to pool but what have they won lately.
How can a team loose these qualities that they had in abundance?
Granted we all knew that there was the need for personnel changes but none of us could of envisaged the collapse and capitulation that we are currently witnessing.
Looking back to Sundays game

Sam said something on the "other posts" page, that Brendan Rodgers said Manchester United have the best team, but Liverpool play better as a team. Something like that. I cannot agree more, on paper we have a better side than Liverpool and a better squad. Problem is we cannot play well as a unit. Can you imagine last season's Van Persie's prolific scoring accompanied by Mata's assists. With Rooney putting in 100% as opposed to last season's guff. Our first XI needs surgery without doubt, but IMO the biggest problem right now is the manager. The players are simply uninspired.

It doesn't matter what the personnel are, in big games Moyes sends out the team with the same negative attitude and it isn't working. The message is to sit back, stay compact and try to contain. In other words, we play like an away team holding on for a draw, even when we're at home. This was Moyes default game plan at Everton, and nothing has changed this season. In every big game we allow the opposition to dictate the play, so we always start on the back foot.

Take one look at our record against the teams above us in the league: played 10, won 1, drawn 3, lost 6, goals for 6, goals against 17. That is shocking form against supposed rivals, and Moyes must take responsibility. We need new players and even our good players are playing poorly, but our loser mentality is what has completely killed our season, and that comes directly from Moyes.

There's a feature in MEN today listing Moyes's excuses after every defeat. It's embarrassing to read, but it shows what a failure of a manager he is.

Syd
It's not as simple as having a good team on paper.
Look at Liverpool of last year as opposed to the Liverpool this year.
There is a lot wrong with this team and not just moyes.
Last year rvp was flying and had been injury free for 2 seasons.

Can you imagine united last season with an injured rvp

If I had the choice of spending 100 mill on new players or getting a new manager I would go for the new players as I think the quality of our cm and back 4 is a bigger issue than the quality of our manager.

What we are seeing IMO is a team that has key players coming to the end of there careers at the same time .
Ferdy and vidic for me where the best in the world smalling and co aren't in the same class and can't even stay injury free.
Evra enough said. Carrick is on the slide and our cm is a long term issue.
The form of our wingers is a long term problem.
Fergy leaving was always going to be massive and the new manager was always going to have to build HIS team.

This is a team truly in transition both on and of the pitch and I don't think it is any surprise we are struggling.

Moyes has a massive job on his hands and it will take longer than 6/7 month.

Jred, exactly, there is little difference between last season's Liverpool and this season's Liverpool, but they have improved. That's what happens when the team want to play for the manager. I don't think certain senior players want to play for Moyes or they feel unsecure under Moyes. There is little difference between this MU side and last season's MU. In fact it's a better side on paper this season. Yet there's a 43 point swing. What's changed at MU?

David Moyes.

I would get a new manager, someone who can inspire the team and then give him £100m+ to spend over the next few windows.

The difference with Liverpool past season is that, even though they may not have won as many games as this season, you could see a definite improvement in their style of play; you could see that they were headed in a particular direction that was an improvement on previous years. Can we say the same about us under Moyes this year? I'd say not. If we were losing the odd game but we were playing football the right way then there would atleast be some light at the end of the tunnel but we aren't, we are pure undiluted guff. If a manager cannot get a football team playing a better brand of football, than the one we currently are, without having to spend £150million then you have to question whether he is the man to take you forward. People may say that SAF didn't leave the squad in an ideal state but when you look at some of the other managers that "may" have been available during the summer and ask whether they would have done a better job with the current squad, I'd say yes.

Of course, if Moyes goes, it leaves the question of who to get in. There are some fairly obvious choices, most of which I would be happy with, but I also find myself increasingly impressed with the job Pochettino is doing at Southampton. It may be too soon for him but if you want an example of someone who has, for the most part, improved the group he inherited then he is it. His signings aren't too shoddy either, Dani Osvaldo being the exception but even then he showed his ruthless side and demonstrated that he isn't afraid of making quick decisions.

Sydney
See what happens when you give a manager time .
Look at some of the things said about BR last season by yourself and others.
There's no doubt he has proved people wrong .
I said last year this team wasn't as good as some think and it was fergys best achievement winning the title the way he did.
Nothing has so far proved me wrong .

I think united know the size of the task facing moyes and he will be given time let's see who is right .

I actual hope he goes but it's not up to me

If we want permanent transition keep Moyes. This dip isn't about transition it is about a manager out of his depth who cannot inspire because he hasn't got the experience or medals to show experienced winning players he really knows how to win. We can buy 11 new players but if they don't believe and are guided in the wrong direction it will still fail. Times up Moyes

The big difference between Rodgers and Moyes is improvement.

Last season Liverpool started poorly, but as Rodgers's tactics and training began to take effect the team visibly lifted their game, and toward the latter stages of the season Liverpool were one of the best teams in the league,

This season Moyes has started poorly and, if anything, despite two of the biggest signings in the club's history, we are playing worse. There has been zero evidence of improvement or tactical innovation and, worse still, Moyes can't even explain why we are playing so poorly.

The two examples are not parallel, they are polar opposite. Rodgers took over a failing team that had regressed tactically under the previous manager and modernised their approach. When he was changing the tactics and mindset they struggled for a bit, but since Christmas last season they have improved and improved. Moyes took over an ageing squad that, although winning games and titles, were in decline and tactically uninventive. Moyes has regressed the team tactically, and failed to generate any improvement in performances or results.

Rodgers had a clear plan for Liverpool. Moyes doesn't seem to have any idea why things aren't working at United, or how to fix them. He asks for time and promises a massive improvement, but is unable of telling us or showing us how he will do this.

Danny, I agree, I have said all along that the team is suffering mentally.

Sydney
It was only a couple of months ago you where arguing we would soon be top .
The table will look very different by the end of January etc etc

Red Man, time was up for Moyes, when he was appointed instead of Mourinho.

Interesting discussion. I have to agree with Jred.

We are a long way from winning and this is truly a transition and before we go up again you have to accept there will be painful days like sunday.

BR last year was the butt of most jokes and they were awful for long periods and got it together in the last 3 months of the season, when the games had no meaning what so ever and they played with no pressure.

The difference is the expectations with us is immense and DM has never had a moment to settle in, between the summer transfer fiasco and wayne rooney saga, injuries, tough fixtures and then some serious sunday league horror stuff from some of the players.

Whilst we are all in shock the scousers think it is christmas and can't believe what is happening.

I said this yesterday, this site is now obsessed with blaming DM for everything and anyone pointing out other issues with this team is accused of defending DM.

It is unfortunate it has come to this as most people had their own favourite for the managers job and moyes was not the one. The difference is some of us do not have an obsession with seeing him sacked.

Interesting that people also want to blame him for not motivating players as an excuse for the horror show some of the lads are having. These are some of the highest paid people in the country in any profession and are expected to perform.

Jred, that was September when I said we could be top by bonfire night, hardly a couple of months ago. I fully expected the players to get out of the rut they are in, but I now believe it will not happen until the manager is changed. This team is suffering mentally.

StevieK, to be fair to Red Man, he knew Moyes would be a mistake and he was absolutely correct. He also said we needed a big character to take over from SAF and he was correct again.

Shahram, I don't blame Moyes. Like I said you cannot blame a dog for being a dog. He is doing the best he can. The owners will need to take responsibly for bringing in a manager with no trophies, a manager with a poor record against the top teams and almost zero European experience. A manager that the players simply do not respect. What other top club would have even considered Moyes? This was one of SAF's blunders. He had so long to prepare for his retirement and he couldn't have ballsed it up anymore than he has done.

Sydney
No actual it was just before Xmas.
As well

Sydney

You are still assuming it is all the managers fault and someone else could get these guys to perform much better because we have a lot of good players.

I am not sure I agree with that view that this is a squad full of great players.

I think we genuinely overrate our players and that leads to laying all the blame on dm for everything that is going wrong.

Less than a year ago people were calling zaha as potentially the next ronaldo and powel as scholes replacement. Found both those statements quite funny but what is the point of even arguing with a view like that. Jones, Smalling, Evans are the next Barresi, Canavaro and Maldini :)

I really don't think many of the squad are that good or that we have bought well in the last 5 years. If people like to draw parallels our transfer activities in the last 5 years resemble pools in the later years of Benitez and the Dalglish. Overpaying for very average players.

I just hope if we make a change at the managers level, we also ship many of this lot out as they are genuinely average and getting outplayed by their opposite numbers week in week out regardless of the tactics.

As they say be careful what you wish for :)

Got to agree with red man on the whole we need a manager with a big character it was my main argument for going for Jose .

GCU

There does need to be playing changes we all know that. Interesting but if you looked at a Brian Cloughs European cup winning teams, individually they were nothing great but put together and inspired by the manager the whole became more than the individuals in what on paper would be better teams. Ours wasn't a great team and hasn't been since 2009 but together with purpose, inspired by a leader they played with one goal believing in what they were asked to do, trusting the manager because his experience showed it would work. Inspiring a team is a skill a gift sometimes that has defined great leaders to achieve more than the whole. Right now our manager hasn't inspired and doesn't appear to have a belief in where to go and can't demonstrate past work that shows it will work. Change the players but so much more is needed to make a successful team and Moyes has never demonstrated one iota of skill to show he can do it, in fact the opposite.

Redman

The days of Brian Clough are long gone mate and with the money around today, you need to spend to win and spend consistently every year.

The leadership of this team got old together and now hardly on the pitch. We have failed to replace key players or have a succession plan for ageing players.

You know you have failed to plan when the next choice for captain is Rooney, Jones or Evans. Two are not even guaranteed to be in the first 11 when everyone is fit and one has almost walked twice on the club.

We are not in a good place but we are also not in the abys as you and some others like to make it out. There are fine margins and sometimes you are closer than you think and missing a few catalyst.

Unfortunately, I will be at the airport boarding a flight tonight and will miss the match but not too optimistic on getting through.

18 Mar 2014 08:25:25
I think we all realize that the decisions the board make between now and the start of next season are massive for the future of the club. If they get things wrong it will be a long time before we are genuinely title contenders, let alone a European force.

In all honesty the 'transition' has not started yet. This season has appeared to be Moyes paying homage to the 'old' way and the older players. It does appear that Moyes is paying too much respect to what went before and has no direction to take us in. Its an obvious statement, but Moyes is not Fergie. He does not command the same respect from the players; he cannot inspire them in the same way; he cannot get that extra 10% that makes us competitive.
Why get rid of the coaching staff and then decide to play a similar way as to before with one exception; being cautious and conservative as opposed to adventurous.
Why persist with older players who simply do not have the legs or the desire?

In my opinion this season was supposed to be a season where Moyes found his feet and the club thought we still had enough to finish top four. For whatever reason this has not worked. Maybe the players do not trust Moyes and therefore have not performed to expectation; or maybe Moyes simply is not good enough to manage a club that expects?

Employing Moyes was a massive risk; keeping him in employment beyond this season is an even bigger risk. He has not displayed enough to warrant the almost open chequebook we believe we may have for signings in the summer.
We can all see we not only need new players but we need a new style. We all want fast attacking football. We can talk formations all day long, however, at the end of the day it does not matter if we play 4-4-2 or 4-3-2-1 or 4-3-3 if we set up to contain and do not have players who are prepared to get in front of ball and create space.
It is a shame as Moyes is a good honest football man, but that is not enough it is time for him to go.

We have no chance of fourth now that is clear, however, once it is mathematically assured then I think the board must act and let Giggs finish the season off as manager. We should then go and appoint a top name with the ability to inspire a new brand of football. If we don't then next season may be better, but it will not be enough. We will be challenging for a Europa place and not top four