Manchester United Banter Archive November 26 2013

26 Nov 2013 14:06:14
Just a thought about young Tom Cleverley, when he broke into the first team he looked a great little player. He was the key player in the pre season win over Barcelona, he then came on and changed the course of the community shield against City. He looked like he could be a top player for us. Sir Alex even went as far as saying he was the best young english midfielder at the time.

but then he had a bad injury that put him out for most of the season. After which he hasn't looked the same since, maybe a lack of confidence or maybe something else.

Either way in my opinion I think people are too quick to write him off compeletly. And i'll tell you why.

If we look over at the league leaders and their excellent form so far its easy to look at the signing of Ozil as the catalyst for their form. But anyone who has watched them closely will tell you that he its the form of Aaron Ramsey that has really pushed Arsenal to the next level.

Which is an interesting point. Because over the last few seasons Arsenals own fans have been calling for Ramseys head, stating his performances weren't good enough. And they were probably right in some respect.

Now Ramsey and Cleverley have similarities in their careers, both broke into a top four team as a talented young player, then both have had a serious injury and their form after that has suffered, but Ramsey has had come through that and kicked on. But it did take him 2/3 seasons to full get over it. Maybe if we give Cleverley abit more support then he too may come through it and become a great little player for us.

Now i'm not saying that we shouldn't reinforce our midfield, as we clearly need to. But maybe we should just be abit more patient with Cleverley.

The line "young Tom Cleverley" says it all. He's already twenty four, which in football terms is approaching your peak years, but Cleverley looks more like a player who has just hit his twenties both in terms of physicality and composure.

Cleverley is what he is: busy, energetic and can help keep possession. But he is not, and never will be, good enough for our midfield. At best he's a squad player. When he had a handful of decent games two seasons ago and everybody was touting him as Scholes's second coming, I wasn't fully convinced. Since then he has not progressed one bit, in any aspect of his play: still can't tackle, still can't shoot, still can't pass the ball forward.

Ramsey is younger and has been quietly learning and improving over the last two years. We can wait until Cleverley is 40 and he still won't be good enough.

Herrera & Witsel would be my picks to sharpen up this shabby midfield of ours. Options of Herrera, Carrick, Fellaini, Witsel, Cleverly & Powell would be good with Jones also.

Shappy, you usually have an eye for talent but I think you have a soft spot for Cleverley.

Ramsey's talent was never in question. He was one of the best young talents in the world before his injury. Before his injury, cleverley had a couple of decent games where our form had more to do with Anderson being on fire than anything else.

Even last season, when Ramsey was having a stinker after another, his abilities were out for all to see. He was skillful, creative, good range of passing and works hard. But he was playing as a winger, where his lack of explosive pace showed.
When he was moved to defensive midfield he exploded.

Cleverley does not possess any outstanding qualities. Take away his workrate and he has nothing. His passing range is average, he's not much of a creative force, he has got no skills on the ball and he's not a good goalscorer.

And to compare cleverley's injury to ramsey's is frankly ridiculous. Cleverley came out with a bad ankle and played 2 months later 9 granted he got injured again ) where Ramsey suffered a trauma, a career ending injury. He saw his tibia and fibula get shattered and I personally thought this man might never use his leg again.

And Cleverley is no longer young. he's nearly 25 whereas Ramsey is 2 years younger and a significantly better player

I like Cleverly. With the options that we have, I feel we miss him a lot when is not playing. But then again he does not quite take control in games when he is playing. But its daft to blame him for what SAF has ignored quite blatantly. He cannot and should not be the scape goat.

I made a comment quite sometime back and I stick to it. Petrucci and Ravel for me were above Clevs on raw talent. I still think if Petrucci was not injury prone and if Ravel did not have his brain farts, we would be in safe hands by now. But presently Clevs is kind of indispensable with Carrick absent. I so hope he turns things around.

Deeps.

Mick, I'm not saying that Ramsey and Cleverley are comparable by talent just that they have suffered similar injury set backs and have both taken time to fully get over those injuries.

I'm saying we should have patience with him rather than blame him or slate him everytime he doesn't set the world alight.

If you asked the Arsenal fans what they thought of Ramsey six months ago then you'd have got a very different answer than you would if you asked them today. Things change that quickly in football.

If I was to liken Cleverley to a fellow footballer then I would liken him to Darren Fletcher. Everything you said about Cleverley you can have easily said about a 24 year old Darren Fletcher.

For me the difference between the playing styles of Cleverley and Fletcher is Darren was more physical but Cleverley is much better technically. But both are more known for their work rate over their flair or ability to dictate a game.

Yet many would have you believe that the 2009 champions league final would have turned out differently had Fletcher been playing.

I would argue that Cleverley would have done more to effect the out come of that match than Fletcher would have done, due to the fact that time and time again it has been shown you can't out muscle Barca.

I just feel that time and time again fans blame Cleverley for not being world class and for the lack of other options in midfield. What is it about fans that we have to find a player to be our scape goat.

Shappy
Could it be that people simply don't rate him.
And don't think he is " going to be a great player for us "
It's man united if you play well you get praise but if your not good enough well that's a different matter

I got to agree with mick on this as both Anderson's and Cleverley's best form has come when the 2 of them have played together so I think Moyes needs to think about giving both run in the team together while carrick is out injured

It is not about a scape goat, It is not about criticising Cleverley for not being World Class. It is all about realising what he is, a good squad player

I don't think Fletcher was a top player, he was a hard worker, committed but top level, no. Still Fletcher offered just a little more to a midfield battle than Cleverley does now.

Been a while since I last posted, but still try to read everyday.
for me if you were to compare cleverly with anyone then it would prob be more a park than a fletcher, both big runners with bags of energy, and even though 'three lungs' nicked the odd (often important) goal here and there, was always only really ever considered a squad player.
no, cleverly is not a world class player and let's be fair, probably will never be, but he will still have his role to play and as such warrants our support. just look at fletcher, he was made a scape goat for years because he developed late, but became a key player for us despite not being the most gifted.
having said that I think the biggest cause of criticism derives from his constant 'sideways' passing, and I think that is down more to lack of options ahead of him making dangerous runs and lack of movement beside him going forward, so often the only ball available is often short and backward. because of this it is no surprise that his best form was when pair with anderson who, for a time, was willing to make those runs and we were a lot more threatening simply because the ball was moved a lot quicker forward creating more space as defenders were not given the time to organise.

Dags

Shappy, that's the problem though. Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

I am one of those who believed that Fletcher might have made a difference in 2009, but it's more to do with Giggs being out of the game than Fletcher being in it.

And Cleverley is a player I like. But the fact remains he should not be starting as many games as he does. He offers energy and movement, but unfortunatly does not possess the skills to make a difference. We need a player in the mold of Cleverley, just better.

Same as when we needed a box to box player in the mold of fletcher, just better.

i think Cleverley will very likely finish his career here, and I could not be happier, but I think it's unfair for him and the team to make him a starter, because he's just not that good.

I'm very much hoping Cleverly doesn't finish his career here. He doesn't create very much at all apart from confidence in the opposition. He just hasn't developed into the player he looked like he could of been. Unfortunately he has been surrounded by a very mediocre midfield for much of his career. If we had the dynamic, tactically aware type of player like Martinez, a player with the guile and skill like Iniesta and a versatile all rounder who can pass, tackle and create like Vidal he would probably fit into the squad perfectly. But then, I'd probably look a world beater in a midfield like that. And that is the type of midfield we need. He is a squad member at best. He will never be able to impose himself on a game as he just isn't at that level.
As for playing him with Anderson. We really are in a bad place if that is seen as any solution, it smacks of desperation. Simply not good enough.
Major investment in the team is needed and we are probably going to hear the same excuses bandied about when the top players who are needed reject our advances and then the Ronaldo rumours will resurface again to keep the masses sedated on former glories. New blood is needed if the team is to move forward. How low are the Glazers prepared to let the team go as long as the profits keep on increasing. Minimal investment for maximum profit. It's the American way of doing business. Very sad days indeed.

27 Nov 2013 13:35:43
So its his fault successive managers failed to buy? He would work well in a midfield 3 with a ball winner just mind and a driver just in front. Wrong tactics from Moyes, lack of signings from Gill/ Woodward. And for those saying he plays too many games and shouldn't be a starter well look around the squad and name the alternatives.

So Shappy wants to keep Clev but was eager to sell Rooney this summer. Let's assume that we shouldn't take seriously anything he says about players. I'm amazed he's still on here after this past summer and the enormous foot that must be stuck in his mouth.

26 Nov 2013 13:16:03
Going that we can get the job done tomorrow and I am actually looking forward to hopefully seeing Anderson and Cleverly in central midfield. That has worked well in the past and Anderson does give some forward penetration regardless of how poor he can be. The bit problem is if Ferdinand and Evans start. We need a leader, Evans is good alongside Vidic but he doesn't work with Evans.

Christ remind me NOT to watch the match tomorrow.
Fresh is that a serious post or are you pulling my chain?
That's just about the worst combination you can have in the central midfield area.
I would rather see Giggs and Jones any day of the week then them two.

Cleverley and Anderson! I bet the whole of Europe are brickin themselves. Its just like having Keane and Scholes back. How many chances does Anderson want. He has recently said in the press (true or not?) that he is happy at OT. Well if he is happy not to have hardly played in the last 5-6years then that says it all. Pinching wages. Grt rid! I have never slated Cleverley but he is just not progressing. He is not a patch on other CM's at our rival clubs.

It doesn't matter who plays in the middle there all clueless with no pace no skill no vision.A mass clear out is needed but I won't hold my breath Blackpool Red

I wouldn't what sort of reaction that would get ;) . Had to entertain myself with that one. Horrendous that they are the only two fit or unsuspended options.

Okay guys on current form Cleverley and Anderson sound disastrous but don't forget the beginning of the 2011-12 season when Anderson and Cleverley started most games together in the centre, I believe that's when we beat Arsenal 8-2 and also Spurs 3-0 a few weeks later.

I think that's what it's going to have to be seeing as I doubt Carrick, Jones will be fit for tomorrow. Fellaini's suspended and it'd be stupid to start Giggs in the centre of midfield.

I bet we see Jones and Giggs. I have a really bad feeling about this game. Leverkusen will be really up for it and our games against Socieded were hardly performances to make Bayer afraid of our visit tomorrow.

I reckon Leverkusen are going to win, 2-1 or 3-2. And before I get slated for being negative, I went for 1-3 United this weekend - I just don't see this one panning out well for us.

My bad Jones has been confirmed fit for tomorrow. I bet we'll see Jones and Cleverley together in midfield then. Personally i'd prefer Jones and Anderson because unlike Cleverley, Ando tries to carry the ball forward or/and makes a forward pass. His lack of defensive abilities shouldn't be much of a problem with Jones playing next to him.

I'm going for a 1-1 draw, if we play like we did against Cardiff then I think we'll lose.

I have literally just choked on my cornflakes reading that post Fresh :-)

I think people are too harsh on Cleverley. I don't think he is played in his correct position. He is used deeper because of his energy and the fact he doesn't tend to give the ball away too much. This, in my eyes, is hampering his development and means he gets a lot of sh*t from fans. Personally, I think he does the job he is asked to do and if he was allowed further forward, we would see a lot more from him and people wouldn't be so harsh.

Anderson. No comment other than I hate the fact he is still here taking our money each week.

26 Nov 2013 07:33:40
R.I.P
Bill Foulkes
4 top flight titles
1 European Cup

26 Nov 2013 00:21:17
Rip Billy boi!