Manchester United Banter Archive October 08 2013

08 Oct 2013 16:44:53
Given a choice and not considering injury record who would you go for

Rodwell or Fellaini

(Assume they cost the same)

Fellaini every day of the week, it's like comparing Nani & Ronaldo if you ask me.

You have to consider injury record. If Rodwell never had persistent injuries he would be a very good player now.

Rodwell.

08 Oct 2013 17:49:10
Etienne Capoue is a much better DM than either Rodwell who is more a box to box midfielder or Fellaini who lacks pace and positional sense as a DM.

And he cost about half as much as either Rodwell or Fellaini.

Fellaini looks good as a DM for Belgium but he is the deepest of a midfield three with Witsel and Defour/Dembele both being high energy midfielders meaning Fellaini effectively plays as a sweeper infront of the defence, then plays the ball to the more talented players.

I agree with Shappy, we need to play 3 in the middle if we are to get the best out of Fellaini. With Carrick slowing down I think we are still two midfielders short of a good midfield. If we had Fellaini deep with a player in the Yaya Toure model ahead of him with a playmaker like Cabaye then we would have a very good team.

Perhaps we could get Fellaini, Lars Bender and then look towards a player like Cabaye. But I think Kagawa could play that role quite well or Janzuaj or Powell.

08 Oct 2013 19:31:18
I'd look to go a different way with the midfield. I think we should play a three man midfield but I think we should be far more positive than play with Fellaini and a player like Lars Bender. Effectively playing with two defensive work horses.

We've got Fellaini now so let's play him deep then play two high energy attack minded midfielders such as Ander Hererra and Ilkay Gundogan. With creative hard working players like them then we would be scoring goals for fun. We could then still play with two strikers and an AM of either Kagawa or Januzaj.

Fellaini isn't effective defensively for me, he needs to be pushed up for certain games to give the opposition something to think about whilst our attacking players feed off the space and chaos!

I think I've only seen Rodwell play 10 games in his entire career, irrespective of injuries how can anybody say he is better than Fellaini? He may have had potential but at least Fellaini was a consistent high performer for Everton and caused us and many other teams more problems than many "star" players.

I can't think of one stand out Rodwell game.

I fear that Fellaini is a bit slow to react and a bit casual so far in the DM position. Unlike Carrick he's not great at positioning himself to make an interception. He showed in the Leverkusen game though that his passing is infact very good, playing a few first touch passes into Van Persie, I think he just needs to up the tempo in some scenarios.

I'd like to see a 4-3-3 with Carrick and Fellaini switching with Kagawa being the most advanced playing a sort of Iniesta role. Then Januzaj starting on the right, Rooney on the left with RvP up front. Obviously the front three could all swap positions and find space and drop deep, swapping with Kagawa. I think that team would be our best bet to play clever technical football. Seeing as none of Valencia, Nani or Young are playing well we should ditch them all and try something different.

I like your suggestion Ozwald. In this way, we could actually make room for Chica to play at least as a sub and perhaps Ando for more attacking games.

08 Oct 2013 06:52:48
I have to ask just what went on at the club when SAF retired.

Another example of the indication that SAFs retirement was not as planned as it should have been is the Januzaj situation. It is continuing to be reported that contract talks stalled after Sir Alex Ferguson decided to retire in May and have resumed only recently. Why?

If SAF knew so far in advance as they claim that he wished to retire how can the changeover have been so muddled? Surely important pieces of business like retaining key young players was first order of business? However, is the Januzaj situation another example of Moyes coming in and "wanting to be his own man" before committing. As we have seen with the changes to back room staff continuity was not his first aim. So many things seem to indicate SAFs retirement was not as planned as expected, the Januzaj situation, SAFs summer transfer targets who had been worked on for months even SAF referring to himself as being able to do major deals only days before retiring. Something is not right and it may well be one reason why we have seen a poor start not least because the Glazers didn't appear to want to pay anything to extricate Moyes even a few weeks early from his contract.

Finally I have said this several times but in business there is no way such a major business would allow two key figures to leave at the same time. This and missing vital strengthening in summer and signing key young players on contracts is a sign to me the changeover was not handled well no matter what spin is put on it. If it was poorly done would the Glazers really have been able to go to a top manager at the last minute, no is the easy answer. There are many questions open from this summer and Januzaj is but one.

You make some good points. You are right about both fergie and gill going at the same time was a big mistake, I said that at the time. But to make things worse, Moyes decided he should get rid of everyone at the club (apart from the tea lady)!
If you come in into a successful business, you don't throw out all the employees that made it successful in the first place. If he retained Rene, Steele and some of the backroom staff, it would have made the transition easier.

I do not believe the talks stalled due to Adnan not being happy with SAF's retirement. The talks would have been put on hold regardless due to it being transfer season and people would have been very busy at the club dealing with the manager changeover, the coaching staff coming and going. I think it's a nonsense assumption made by a poorly sourced newspaper journalist putting two and two together and getting ten. Adnan wants playing time and he is getting that at MU under Moyes. I would be surprised if he didn't sign a new deal. The boy just wants to play football.

Sydney

The point of my post was not Januzaj not being happy with SAF retiring and you need to re read that. However it appears the club stopped negotiating when SAF left and the club across the board seems to have taken its eyes off the ball in relation to various aspects. It all points to unsuccessful planning for the changeover which, we were lead to believe, was known about for some time but the actions and activity indicates otherwise. Januzaj contract being one example

Personally I think that SAF didn't want to make the same mistake as 2002 when our season collapsed and that his own ego meant that he put 'finishing on a high' ahead of 'preparing the club' for the next manager.

The eds have mentioned before, that SAF's retirement came a year early. My personal theory.

Although his health was obviously a big factor, I genuinely believe SAF looked at the squad and realised that if he didn't leave this summer - it might be his last chance for a few years, to leave on a high.

He would've known Mourinho was coming back, and big money would be spent at the Bridge. He would've known City would be throwing huge amounts money at their new manager, whoever that would be.

He would've known Spurs and Arsenal were still a threat. Finally, he above anyone else, would know exactly how much money we had available compared to how many holes we needed to fill in the squad.

So I think he left a year early to 'go out on a high' and win us another title. {Ed002's Note - So ran away when the time was good you think?}

Red Man, I don't believe Adnan's contract is even relevant here. He isn't the only one who's contract was put on hold until after the transfer window. I think Moyes has known he will be manager for sometime, hence the stalling on a new Everton contract. It's not uncommon for contract talks to be postponed during a transfer window, Carrick's and Rooney's was also postponed. I do think it was lack of planning on some fronts. I think MU had hoped Moyes would work with the current coaching staff, but Moyes wanted his own. I think the club expected to use SAF's transfer targets, but Moyes wanted his own. The club have paid the price for this. Bringing in new coaching staff and letting go of the current coaches didn't come cheap. We also messed up in the transfer window and overspent on Fellaini. So you are right that the planning wasn't great. I think the club expected Moyes to come alone and I expect that they thought Moyes would be happy with the likes of Thiago, but Moyes obviously wanted to put his own stamp on the team and it backfired this summer.

I agree with the finishing on a high theory Redman and sky make some good points imo

Syd
Surely if moyes had know for sometime the club would of known what moyes plans where for when he took over.

Perhaps Moyes changed his mind and wanted his own coaching staff to join him?

Sydney

At the beginning of May SAF said "“Maybe there has been a wind of change and I could go for a really top player now"

He didn't say the club or we he said I. A few days later he retired. A slip of the tongue?

SAF says he decide to retire in December. Moyes kept stalling on extending his Everton contract. Of course neither party could admit there was talks behind closed doors as Moyes was under contract and it would be morally wrong to talk to Moyes whilst he is under contract with Everton. There is no doubt Moyes knew he was the prime candidate, but it will unlikely ever come out. I think when Pep agreed to join BM, the club turned their full attentions to Moyes. Perhaps Moyes was always SAF's first choice though.

@Red Man

I think you are reading far too much into Sir Alex's words and taking them for a very literal meaning. I doubt he put that much thought into it when he said that.

REDFAITH

How about another scenario, use your imagination and let's just suppose.
SAF really planned to retire in 2014 and after the success of buying RVP felt it was a good time to buy several top players for his last season. At the beginning of May he comes out and says so, he has been working on several top players for months and again for weeks had said as much. He comes out and says maybe this time I can go for a really big player now.

After working closely with Gill he knew the limitations. However, this would be a special year. Yet almost simultaneously Mr Woodward says there will be no re tooling of the squad. It doesn't take a big leap to imagine Woodward meant it and to prove it there were no major purchases. SAF knew he needed major reinforcements, it is impossible to think the paucity of areas of the team passed him by. So without cash support it was fairly obvious looking at how other teams were shaping up to spend, that the best time was there and then. SAF made an almost instant decision to retire. Easier to go at a good time at the top and to let the new manager sort it out. It was too late to get a top manager Pep, Ancelotti and Mourinho all committed by then and likely Jose wouldn't have been accepted by the board anyway but there was one option that had been considered and that was Moyes particularly having displayed his proficiency to run on a budget. He was available and perhaps Moyes had even been considered as a No2 to SAF for one season, before being given a chance, even so I recall Moyes saying he was considering signing a new deal at Everton.

That scenario would explain the lack of continuity planning and the scenario we have seen. But it would not sit well if you are trying to defend a situation which could indicate a lack of planning or unwillingness to spend major cash.
Like I said there are a lot of questions but one is why Moyes was not up to speed a lot quicker than he was if he had a long time to prepare. Unless the above scenario is closer than some would think.
The final point is that all the planning should have brought SAF and Moyes together in a planned almost visible way to pass on the baton in May yet it didn't happen. Many questions but in a lot of ways I feel sorry for Moyes because from the outside he may not have been given as good a handover as he should have been.

08 Oct 2013 20:45:33
Ed02 - You could put it that way I guess. Just my opinion, not saying it's fact but I think SAF knew we'd be in for a tough season this year and wouldn't be able to buy the 3-4 top players we needed to stay on top. {Ed002's Note - He was not driven by that.}

You guys are conspiracy theorist and sometimes things are as they seem. 71 years old, bad hip, won everything and wanted to enjoy the fruits of his labor and do all the things he has wanted to do for years.

Many even here reckoned we would walk the league here after winning it by 11 points last year so maybe it is just a simple fact of people overestimating this team. David gill was always leaving and wanted the UEFA executive committee appointment.

@Red Man

I highly doubt your theory and again I think you are making the mistake of taking public statements too literally.

A massive cover up and conspiracy based on Glazers and the equalizer not allowing Sir Alex to spend and him wanting to leave on ground of principles and on a high sounds really juicy although to me it fails on some very clear facts. Also Sir Alex was never a man to shy away from a challenge, never.

1. Sir Alex had already set up deals for Thiago, Strootman and Garay. It directly contradicts the no money to spend argument. If his statement is what you are considering here he actually did say that he could buy a top player if he wanted. He knew Gill was going long back. The Woodward argument just doesn't add up i'm sorry. The club were just expecting Moyes to consider already established targets and got caught napping when he decided to change them.

2. Pep was announced a long time ago for Bayern. Jose going to Chelsea was an open secret, the United board never wanted him, Ancelotti was never under consideration either. Its rather wishful thinking imo. Moyes has been top choice for long.

3. The club obviously didn't want to let out the news of Sir Alex retiring. It would have destabilized the second half of our season massively, and if Moyes had been announced, Everton's season too. There was a very real possibility we could have lost the title due to lack of focus. Just look at the amount of attention it got even though it got leaked so late on. Sir Alex has said ever since the last time he decided to retire that he will go out in bang instead of the way he tried to do it before.

4. Having to maintain secrecy on this front meant there was very little Moyes and Sir Alex could do to work together. Very few people could be told about it since even having planned changing of backroom staff etc would have let the news out in a second. It clearly explains why none of that could be planned well in advance. If Moyes had not been manager at Everton and would have been unemployed like Guardiola it would have been a totally different scenario.

5. MOST IMPORTANTLY. Did you see Sir Alex after the Nani red card and after that game? Looking back its pretty clear he knew he had his last chance of winning the Champions league robbed by a ref. He knew he was retiring. This was long before anything happened with Jose or Ancelotti. It pretty much confirms to me that Moyes was always first choice and Sir Alex had decided to retire long back.

6. There is very little Moyes could have planned without already having talked to all of the backroom at United and Everton in detail, talking to scouts at United etc. Having to put a lid on things for as long as possible made it impossible to plan in advance.

7. The root cause of the whole farcical transfer window showing is not having installed Moyes early on (which the club are now admitting was a big mistake) and not buying him out of his contract. Also we got well and truly played by Fabregas' agent and by the time Moyes had done some groundwork on players, it was far too late in the window.

Its very easy to say this and that should have been done but when you look at all the aspects of it some things don't seem feasible, like planning the change which I explained above.

I agree with you though, I feel a little sorry for Moyes, he was put in a very difficult situation and then there was the whole Rooney issue. Moyes having changed targets obviously meant that Woodward couldn't capitalize on deals that were set up earlier. The transfer window is a long term game of meticulous planning and plotting these days and he was dealing with a handicap in that respect.

I agree with Ed001 about "short term pain for long term gain".

On a side note, the rumors about Moyes not being too keen on Young and Valencia sound encouraging to me. It was high time we had a fresh perspective on the team. The change in backroom staff will actually help us I think.

Good post Redfaith(I assume it's Redfaith)

You said SAF would never walk away from a challenge. In 1996 SAF had issues over pay with the board and admitted in his autobiography Managing My Life: “I was absolutely disgusted. It got to the point where I was not prepared to be ridiculed and felt that on a matter of principle I might have to resign.”

Yet you don't think that working on key targets for months then being denied them for his final season could make him feel the same way?

Red Man, I think you let your imagination get the better of you sometimes. But I guess we are all guilty of that at times. SAF was devastated when going out of the UCL last season, so you could tell that it was his last chance to win it again. So February it was ominous. The man himself said he decided in December. Perhaps we should take his word for it.

@G.A.G.U.S

Yes it was me. But from an unstable internet connection so perhaps explains why I may not have been properly logged in.

@Red Man

Its funny how you ignore how Sir Alex DID NOT resign in 1996 and fought on and eventually got what he wanted and made some big signings in the following seasons.

Seriously mate, the Glazers were never in any position to go against Sir Alex. One word against them from him and it would be pretty much them against every red in manchester. He didn't need to resign.

Its funny how you conveniently ignored all the other points as well. I get it, that you would jump at any opportunity to criticize the owners, but this conspiracy theory certainly is completely rubbish. Please let me know about the Nani red card, Sir Alex's reaction to it and how did you expect planning to be done when everything had to be kept under wraps.

Next time, please try to look at the facts, the timeline and the broader picture first and then try and come to a conclusion rather than the other way round of trying to fit everything into your argument. Might help.

REDFAITH

I read your post about 6.30am before I set off for work and didn't have time to write more than I did, and literally just got in, 12 hours later.

As always when I write anything that could be construed as anti Glazer REDFAITH and Sydney ride to their defence.

1) "Its funny how you ignore how Sir Alex DID NOT resign in 1996 and fought on and eventually got what he wanted and made some big signings in the following seasons"
He got what he wanted and it was many years ago (pre Glazer as well, but did you miss that?), he was not so close to retirement as he was this summer. This summer he could call it retirement and walk without the shock a resignation would cause. He did not always get what he wanted and if you think about it there is quite a major example of that.

2) "the Glazers were never in any position to go against Sir Alex. One word against them from him and it would be pretty much them against every red in manchester"
So they have supporters now? Plus SAF knows what taking that position would do to the club. Let's see what he says when hopefully we are rid of them.

3) Nani, I was there that night and we were all angry, including SAF. However we have seen him angry before and that didn't mean he had decided to retire, now that is your speculation. Actually you can answer something, SAF didn't come out and criticise the referee, yet if he knew a European ban didn't matter as it was his last year then he could come out all guns blazing and get whatever ban they threw at him. Thoughts?

I have given a possible scenario that doesn't support the owners and it is not a shock at who denies it.