Manchester United Banter Archive March 19 2013

19 Mar 2013 20:56:24
Good to see Zaha is already putting Leeds fans in their place! He'll not go far wrong at utd! ;D

(Missed that story first time round)

They get the last laugh though, he went and got a 1 game ban lol.

I would hardly say that JK92. They are in no position to be laughing at anybody.

TK-Red

True TK.

I wasn't trying to correct you JK92 it just loathes me to think of Leeds fans being smug. As a group of fans I detest them more than Liverpool.

TK-Red

I'd like to see them get promoted though. Imagine the fun of stuffing a few past them at Elland Road.

Pfft, I'd like to see them relegated for the next 3 consecutive seasons. Really despise them, awful club, awful fans.

AJH

I really couldn't tire of seeing them relegated, along with their Lancashire equivalent, Blackburn.

Small-town, provincial backwaters, where the fans have monobrows and hairy palms, and that's just the females. You know, the sort of club we would be, if KLOOT had his way Utd supporters from outside Manchester :)

19 Mar 2013 17:46:47
Sorry for the intruding but I want to hear your thought on this, United fans, Am a Blue fan here in peace.

Basically English football has dominated all over in Europe and English teams have proved that they are not easy to go by. but recently things seems to have been turn down a little.

Last season in the champion's league, 2 English teams got their boot kicked out of the group stages - Man City and Man United, but Arsenal progress to the next stage and got eliminated. Chelsea made it to the final and won it through some individual brilliance and luck.

This season has not been an exception, 2 English teams got their boot kicked in the group stages - Man City and Chelsea, the other two only made it to the next stage but got eliminated including the current premier league leaders Man United and Arsenal.

Is already quarter final in this seasons champions league and we have 3 Spanish teams standing, 1 Italian team, 2 German team, 1 French team and 1 Turkish team standing but no English team to be found.

In the past seasons, out of the 4 teams who made it to the semi final of the champions league you could find at least 2 teams from England among them, even 3 teams used to made it that far.

During this seasons ballon d'or, FIFA named its first eleven players and surprisingly all the players are from the Spanish league.

So the multi million question am asking is that, HAS ENGLISH FOOTBALL LOST IT QUALITY?

Sorry for the long post and bad English

Blueprint

I think it has to be honest

Hi Blueprint,

IMO there are a few clear contributing factors, some of which are:

1) The quality of the top teams in the EPL has dipped in the last 2-3 years. United and Chelsea have been trying to transition into a younger squad whilst Liverpool and Arsenal seem to have fallen away in terms of quality (looking at their squads and their EPL performances). This may well be adressed over the next few transfer windows.

2) Luck of the draw? City is a special case, due to being newbies and having a poor coefficient they have been in tricky groups both years. TBF to them they were in an awful group this year (which I was delighted about!) so it was always going to be hard for them, specifically.

United were lucky to get such an easy group but then unlucky to draw one of the top teams in the 2nd round and then even unluckier at the way they went out. If they progressed we could easily have had a british team in the semi's or further (depending on the draw).

3) Certain European clubs have got better during the same period that our top clubs have dipped. Barca have been dominant - possibly the best club side in recent history at times, Real have improved, the German league has improved and teams like Dortmund and Shalke have benefitted, then there is PSG who have benefitted from a huge injection of cash.

4) TBF we have a good showing in the Europa League - which goes to show that the EPL is by far the most competetive once you look beyond the top 2 or 3 teams.

Conclusion - nothing too much to worry about IMO. These things go in cycles. United and Chelsea will get better and more rounded, whilst City will get through the groups eventually and will then be hard to stop in the knock outs. Then there is Arsenal and Spurs who will be looking to improve on all fronts. It may well be more competetive form now on with the emergance of German clubs and money clubs (Anzi/PSG/Malaga) but I do expect british teams to start competing more in the EPL over the next couple years.

No one likes us we don't care!
Chelsea weren't meant to be in that final last year but they were and well done. I think Barca were meant to be there instead, certainly in UEFA's eyes anyway. There was very nearly only Malaga from spain left in the competition.

Supasub

Personally I think other clubs, especially the top German sides, have adapted their playing style to better counter the threat from the Spanish teams. The type of football that has been steadily introduced into Spanish and Italian teams (although they screwed up with all the match fixing which set them back so much) since the mid/late nineties is incredibly fluid.

We see a front four many more times than we see a front two in the Spanish and Italian leagues (and to a lesser extent the Portuguese league). The premier league is much more rigid and combative. It's a physical league as we see every week and players with physical presence are often more valued than a smaller framed player with a deft touch. Formations are not as fluid and attacking, so often when faced with a much more fluid opposition, teams with a rigid formation often suffer as they can be out passed. I'm sure if you were to look, the possession figures for any English team in the CL this season were probably not fantastic. The longer you hold the ball, the more chance you have of getting goals, and also hanging on to a lead.

Another point is the transition that English football is going through. There's and end of the greatest era in club football on the way whenever SAF decides to retire, Liverpool have been in transition for God knows how many years, Chelsea have suffered with the problem of their owner wanting to have as many managers as he does cars and Arsenal were too willing to let some of their best talents go. Man City thought money would ensure their rise to the top. and it did for a season. Spurs are on the up but need to grow into a team that top class players want to be a part of!

The knockout phases for Europe come towards the end of a tough season, English teams had faced nearly 6 months of football before them in several competitions. And that's 6 months of tough competitions, La Liga for example may have Barcelona and Real Madrid, but they don't have those extra teams that, while aren't likely to win any trophies, can still tackle the big names on a saturday afternoon. and that can be difficult for managers to plan. Second and ninth in la liga are separated by 20 points, but 15 in the EPL. five points isn't much, but it does represent how the EPL is a much closer league. Have a look at the two tables and the points differences between the teams.

Football is famous for cycles and this is just one of them. I wouldn't say English football has lost it's quality, but I would say it's taken longer to adapt to how football is changing than other teams.

Bloody hell. sorry for another long post haha!

As a whole, no I don't think it has. The bottom 15 or so teams have actually improved in the last few years IMO its just that our top 5 haven't improved anywhere near as much as their counterparts in other countries. If you look at the quality of certain teams since 2008 when we won it you would say Barca, Real, Munich, Dortmund, and Juventus have all improved massively so we should perhaps give them credit for that. We were in a similar situation in the early 2000's and English sides responded, as they need to do now.

TK-Red

I think English teams have maybe gone back a bit but also the top Germans have improved as have Real under Jose.

Another factor has to be City's new found status as a regular CL qualifier. Give it a few more years and they'll have a better ranking, get easier groups and progress beyond them more often.

Arsenal and Chelsea seem to be in transition too.

But we've done alright in the Europa League so it's not all that bad.

Ben.

Wouldn't be surprised to see 3 or 4 English teams in the 1/4's next season.

I agree with TK, I think the EPL as a whole is stronger, but some of the top teams are currently going through a transition IE Chelsea & ourselves. Liverpool, Villa & Arsenal have regressed, but i'd say the rest of the EPL have gotten stronger, especially the likes of City & Spurs. No doubt the German teams and Spanish two have improved so they have the edge at the moment. Dortmund, Bayern, Madrid & Barcelona have improved a lot in the past few years overtaking the EPL sides. Ourselves and Chelsea are still 1-2 years away from completing the transition and teams like City & Spurs have little UCL experience so will need to improve. I think due to their lack of UCL experience they will continue to get groups of death too as they will be 3rd seeds. So whereas City have replaced Liverpool in Europe, they do lack Liverpool's experience of the big European night. If Spurs overtake Arsenal the same applied there too. So I think the EPL is stronger, but the top sides are not as strong as the German and Spanish top sides.

Sydney!

To me champos lg is a a bit hollow now. it shou;ld be ONLY for league winners imo 4 english teams is a joke its too many. seedings also a load of tosh jus pull em out a hat and let it go on.

the draw systems a farce too. fe mcmanaperm knew the utd ball when he picked it for the Madrid game its too easy to fix.

ms85

It's dropped imo only one good team In the league and that's why we are 15 clear

EPL as league is more exciting to watch. If anyone saw the qpr aston villa game, although both teams struggling but it great to watch.

Tope teams are currently behind their peers in Europe but I have a feeling we will see the pl teams in their next year going deep into the knock out stage.

Shahram

19 Mar 2013 17:28:09
still do not understand why we could'nt sign hazard. augsty

It was his agent fees and his choice of life in london rather than in manchester, persueded him to join chelsea over us. No footballing reason.

Rodio17

He wanted to go to the European Champions thinking they'd go on to win the league etc - ha, ha!
RedSince68

19 Mar 2013 15:08:41
It's not been quite the season I would have hoped for on a personal front, "
"I think the injuries I've had have held me back a bit. I still get the odd twinge from the last injury I had to my leg and that has perhaps affected my progress slightly. That isn't to say I haven't enjoyed the season because I have very much. " Valencia

19 Mar 2013 13:54:21
How do bayern make so much turn over when their season tickets and regular tickets are so cheap? {Ed002's Note - I have no interest in discussing finances because it only serves to confuse.}

19 Mar 2013 16:37:10
Its simply a better, more stable financial model. Leave it there!

Whistler.

Imagine what our season tickets could be if the money was coming into the club and not going to Florida

Oh goodness gracious. we're back to KLOOT expecting money for nothing. Manchester United sets its season ticket prices at the level that will maximize revenue and it will be forever thus in the era of billion dollar clubs. so get over it. United is not a not for profit or charitable trust dispensing high quality footballing entertaintment at reasonable prices to people like KLOOT who seem to believe that the chance occurance that was their birth in the greater Manchester metropolitan area entitles them to watch world class football at rock bottom prices.

On to Bayern. A quick glance at the Wikipedia page tells an interesting story. They are by far an away the most popular team in Germany in terms of supporters both inside that country and across Europe. They are the 5th most supported team in Europe (United are 3rd, Chelsea 4th, Arsenal 6th and Liverpool 9th). The next biggest team in Germany is Schalke at 21st in Europe. Bayern also have the 2nd most valuable brand in football (behind United and ahead of Real). So clearly they are moving a lot of merchandise and its highly recognizable and sought after. Germany's economy is about 50% bigger than England's. So combine the fact that there are 4 English teams competing for revenues within England and across Europe as representatives of the Premier League, the fact that Bayern is an enormous fish in a pond (Germany) that is 50% bigger than United's or any English club's pond and the fact that their on-field success has increased their global appeal up to 2nd place monetarily speaking; you have the beginnings of an explanation. I personally think the fact that they are the massively dominant club in the world's 4th or 5th biggest economy (depending on how you measure) has a lot ot do with it. That's not to say they aren't very well run or that they aren't the reason for their dominance in Germany but there are certainly outside factors.

pepe

KLOOT it's an EPL problem not a United problem, stop with the tunnel vision :)

20 Mar 2013 01:36:34
@HoneyBadger

it's not an EPl problem, either the higher season ticket model or the debt financed ownership. the ticket price issue is capitalistic entities will charge the revenue maximizing price for their product always and the overwhelming majority of football clubs are capitalistic entities. the debt financing is a feature of all clubs in all leagues with the exception of the bundesliga. real madrid and Barcelona both carry debts in the hundreds of millions of euros. PSG and Chelsea and Malaga and Man City too if you take them solely as football clubs without the benefits of owners and/or funky sponsorship deals. debt financing is a common business practice in these highly financialized days. and considering the bundesliga, with the exception of bayern who as I have stated are an enormous fish in a very big bowl, none of the other teams have had anything like the success of United. yes, dortmund is having a great couple of years but to criticize the EPL is just the flavor of the week. the EPL is the league all others wish they could emulate. club values constantly on the rise, great global penetration. seriously, there are 6 or 7 teams with aspirations every year of going deep in the various European competitions, massive international TV deals. stop buying the media stories about the league solvency or financial issues; they're as fabricated as the vast majority of transfer rumors; intended to get clicks or purchases of papers.

Pepe - what on earth are you going on about?

Kloot mentioned high ticket prices at United, I pointed out they are high throughout the EPL not just at United.

Nobody mentioned debt until you did?

You totally lost me with your ramble TBH.

HBadger

19 Mar 2013 11:43:12
Ed, if Bale moves to Madrid, I would imagine that Di Maria would be available. Now, I know that he was a target before he joined Madrid so do you think we would go back in? He would be the winger we need as he could play left or right hand side. Rodriguez & Lamela are the other two players that I would be interested in.

19 Mar 2013 12:44:15
Not a player i'd be interested in personally.

Hey Fresh,

You missed another winger who may be available, I suppose he can play on either flank too :-)

Cheers!

19 Mar 2013 10:19:50
Michael Owen to retire at the end of the season. He may be from the dark side but in his early days the lad was immense. A shame for him that his later days were so injury plagued. I will always remember him for that goal in the derby, in my eyes it was worth him coming just for that and I couldn't care less how many disagrees I get for this tbh.

Brendan81

I agree I hope he's remembered for what a great player he was and not his latter career. He scored 40 goals for England and with a few less injuries (and mclaren not dropping him) i'm sure he would have gone on to break Sir Bobby's record. Good luck Michael and thanks for the memories, Argentina and City especially!
Adam

Wow 16 agrees and no disagrees, shows United fans have class even when it comes to an ex scouser. I bet Liverpool fans have been slating him on their site today. Then again they are a bit brain dead over there so we shouldn't expect too much, next season is theirs though apparently :-)

Brendan81